I think a lot of the problem is that your whole industry is built on a lie.
It isn't an industry. Industries have standards, our trade does not. Besides, the moment someone really does try and establish some standards, everyone turns around and does whatever they can to try to shoot them down.
Second opinions are great - there's nothing like nursing a barely running or marginally safe car across town to get another $100 diagnosis from another shop. Most towing claims only cover one tow to the nearest garage, so if you really are broken down, the bill adds up fast if you try to shop around.
Here's a quarter....... Instead of telling consumers that when they find a great shop/technician they should stick with them and support them, "experts" tell consumers to shop around which is all about putting price first. There are even times when some go as far as to tell them go to the top shop just for the diagnostics and then once the problem is identified, shop the repair. Nothing like slapping the shop/tech in the face for having worked harder than everyone else while having the integrity and discipline to approach the work correctly with a viable, verifiable set of standards.
Each of us can only control we do personally and what happens inside our shops. When a prospective customer turns their back on us embracing some gimmick such as free inspections, they deserve what ever they get.
Doc, you provide great insight and advice, but.... you just crossed the line.
At least have the decency to cover the full cost of the call to that person who cares! A quarter only gets you halfway there these days (if one can even find a payphone)....
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
At least have the decency to cover the full cost of the call to that person who cares! A quarter only gets you halfway there these days (if one can even find a payphone)....
See? Can't even give money away without something being wrong.....
Instead of telling consumers that when they find a great shop/technician they should stick with them and support them, "experts" tell consumers to shop around which is all about putting price first. There are even times when some go as far as to tell them go to the top shop just for the diagnostics and then once the problem is identified, shop the repair. Nothing like slapping the shop/tech in the face for having worked harder than everyone else while having the integrity and discipline to approach the work correctly with a viable, verifiable set of standards.
Throughout my life various repair places (I'm thinking electronics in particular) have taken a diagnostic fee up front. It may be refundable but only if thrown into the car repair. Where does the car repair trade stand with this method in 2016? Is it used at all? Notwithstanding that we all agree it is an irritant, and is one other mechanism for abuse.
Ralph inspects my car once or twice a year. He always always finds something wrong, even though I give him the explicit instruction not to find anything (gives us both a laugh). He repairs it and I pay him. I cannot imagine shopping the repair around. Not only a waste of time, but my chances of finding a mediocre or dishonest shop greatly increases the more I shop around.
Then how do you propose mechanics get paid based on their knowledge and accuracy? They can adjust their rates. However, people want to know up front what the costs are. If they guess at the time and then are wrong, that is bad as well. So it seems a guideline is necessary for decent communication of costs to the customer?
You can't even get air in your tires for a quarter.
Except in California, where service stations are required to have free air. A few laws/regs actually do look out for the consumer.
I now pay $1 for air. Yep a buck, because every station has experienced people stealing hoses, damaging hoses, etc. so they stopped offering free air. Funny that this would come up as I did critically examine this cost recently. I even have two friends with compressors who are willing to give them to me. But then I must find garage space for them. When I move, that is more "junk" to take with me. I came to the conclusion that $1 every couple months for an extremely high pressure system that fills the tires fast, while I am there for gasoline anyways, is a steal.
Mandating free air most likely raised the price of something else, because there is a real cost for the equipment and air station provided to the consumer. I do not see that as "being on the consumer's side."
I rather like the "not to exceed" book cost method, where you get charged for the time it takes, but not more than what the book says it's worth.
So what does that do to reward getting more education (college level electronics etc.) than the shop across the street or for investing in proprietary scan tools and equipment instead of trying to get by with just the bare minimum?
I'll pay whatever the going rate is from a shop I trust. I always discuss potential charges beforehand, just to set the course for what I want done (and what I don't want done as the case may be).
The main purpose of money is to throw it at problems you want to go away.
I now pay $1 for air. Yep a buck, because every station has experienced people stealing hoses, damaging hoses, etc. so they stopped offering free air. Funny that this would come up as I did critically examine this cost recently. I even have two friends with compressors who are willing to give them to me. But then I must find garage space for them. When I move, that is more "junk" to take with me. I came to the conclusion that $1 every couple months for an extremely high pressure system that fills the tires fast, while I am there for gasoline anyways, is a steal.
Put something like this in your trunk. It'll probably fit around your spare. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B015VXWZ9O This is the one I bought because the reviews were solid and I wanted one where the inflator screwed onto the tire (v. using those squeeze-clamps). Also, the company follows up and seems genuinely interested in their customer's success.
Put something like this in your trunk. It'll probably fit around your spare. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B015VXWZ9O This is the one I bought because the reviews were solid and I wanted one where the inflator screwed onto the tire (v. using those squeeze-clamps). Also, the company follows up and seems genuinely interested in their customer's success.
Thanks. I do have one of these, which came in handy when I had a flat. Knowing the terribly short duty cycle of most electronics manufactured today, I reserve this for emergencies. If it gets used too much it will burn out. Just feel the thing after it has run for a couple of minutes. It gets extremely hot. It will fry and become just one more thing we throw in the landfill and subsequently purchase another thinking "oh well." So, to absolutely positively make sure this thing is working in an emergency, I avoid using it otherwise.
I have a 110v Black and Decker unit I got at a thrift for cheap (like a dollar). It works (gets hot) and I have a 110 plug in the van. I rarely have it in the car though. It's faster to use than the little 100psi compressor in the garage closet.
A $5 Harbor Freight 12v inflator worked for several years and pumped up a low tire one time. they are cheap, but slooow.
Shop rates are over $100 an hour now - how much reward are we talking about?
No they are not. Most here are in the $70's and there are some in the $60's. Remember the add a couple weeks ago offering $14-$16 per hour?
I'm not sure where you live but here on the West Coast shop labor is at LEAST 100.00/ he with a lot of shops charging a lot more that that! Six years ago I know the Mercedes Dealer in Buena Park CA was charging 160.00/hr. Who knows what they are charging now?
Back when I was a kid working in a gas station, there were a lot of jobs that we did for free. We never charged to install things like headlights taillight bulbs wiper blades etc. On oil changes we only charged for the oil and filters etc. We didn't charge labor to install car batteries. Now, shops seem to charge for EVERYTHING!
11.5 hours labor to adjust the valves on a motorcycle? What am I missing?
Probably one of those disc adjustment systems where you have to remove the camshafts....and if you get it wrong, you do it over again. And if it's a 4-cammer, you do it over again 2 times X 4 times.
That's still less labor time than putting a clutch in a Mini Cooper.
Back when I was a kid working in a gas station, there were a lot of jobs that we did for free. We never charged to install things like headlights taillight bulbs wiper blades etc. On oil changes we only charged for the oil and filters etc. We didn't charge labor to install car batteries. Now, shops seem to charge for EVERYTHING!
A lady called this morning, her 2007 BMW has had a random overheating condition, that has now turned into a very repeatable one. It's been towed in and out of several different shops with several repairs performed (including the water pump twice) some six times in the last few months. The car right now is within two miles of a BMW dealership. On top of that at one point it was recommended to her to take the car to one of the local import specialists but she doesn't want to go to either of them because of what they will charge to first prove what is wrong, and then for the repair. It's notable that she has driven this more than once where not only did the gage peg hot, it got so hot that the engine shut down and they had to allow it to cool off, or else had it towed before it would restart. I don't think that it is an accident that prior to calling me the shops that have tried to repair it are among the cheapest in the valley and while they are known for their prices they are also well known for failing to solve the tougher jobs.
Now she needs someone who can solve this issue and put it to rest and she still doesn't want to pay anything which is why it isn't going to the dealer. Since she doesn't want to spend any money, it isn't coming to my shop either.
11.5 hours labor to adjust the valves on a motorcycle? What am I missing?
Probably one of those disc adjustment systems where you have to remove the camshafts....and if you get it wrong, you do it over again. And if it's a 4-cammer, you do it over again 2 times X 4 times.
That's still less labor time than putting a clutch in a Mini Cooper.
Yep dead on Mr. S, V4, with 4 cams. LOL on the Mini Cooper.
To quote Professor Farnsworth, GOOD NEWS EVERYBODY: The inspection at 18,000 miles turned up all valves are dead center. Honda does it again. So at least for this portion of my current maintenance, I only owe the inspection charge, which will probably be a couple hundred dollars. At the rate I ride, I won't have the threat of a valve adjustment for ten more years. Yay.
Back when I was a kid working in a gas station, there were a lot of jobs that we did for free. We never charged to install things like headlights taillight bulbs wiper blades etc. On oil changes we only charged for the oil and filters etc. We didn't charge labor to install car batteries. Now, shops seem to charge for EVERYTHING!
A lady called this morning, her 2007 BMW has had a random overheating condition, that has now turned into a very repeatable one. It's been towed in and out of several different shops with several repairs performed (including the water pump twice) some six times in the last few months. The car right now is within two miles of a BMW dealership. On top of that at one point it was recommended to her to take the car to one of the local import specialists but she doesn't want to go to either of them because of what they will charge to first prove what is wrong, and then for the repair. It's notable that she has driven this more than once where not only did the gage peg hot, it got so hot that the engine shut down and they had to allow it to cool off, or else had it towed before it would restart. I don't think that it is an accident that prior to calling me the shops that have tried to repair it are among the cheapest in the valley and while they are known for their prices they are also well known for failing to solve the tougher jobs.
Now she needs someone who can solve this issue and put it to rest and she still doesn't want to pay anything which is why it isn't going to the dealer. Since she doesn't want to spend any money, it isn't coming to my shop either.
People unwilling to spend a lot of money maintaining a car have no business owning a BMW!
If you can't do much of the work yourself, an old German car is going to cost you considerable amounts of money to keep it going. They aren't that reliable to begin with, and demand excellent maintenance.
People unwilling to spend money maintaining a car have no business owning a car!
That didn't look right so I fixed it for you.
Oh, I agree but there are people who think it's cool to tool around in a BMW when they really should be driving a car that doesn't demand constant and expensive service and repair!
In France they call old luxury cars "Bakers' cars"--it's an idiom to describe a person probably living beyond their means. Only the French could insert the knife so delicately--the idea being that really it's not an expensive car and anyone can afford to buy one---but not necessary to fix it.
I can't say the numerous old German cars I've owned have personally been a huge burden, but I was able to do some things myself and I am a world-class scrounger and networker.
I once bought a beautiful 7 series BMW for....dirt....absurdly cheap, because the carpets were soaked with puddles of water. Not a flood, but clogged fresh air vent drains. I had to strip out the entire interior and have things professionally cleaned for a couple hundred bucks, but I drove that car for 2 years with no serious issues.
But for the previous owner, the quote to fix the problem was substantial, at $125/hour for labor. Note, too, that a main junction box is under the passenger seat. That was fun.
I think up until the F3x cars that you could maintain a 3 Series for a reasonable price. What I see are the idiots who don't follow the maintenance regimen even when they can afford it. They use the wrong fluids and don't change them. Over 144k miles my 1995 3er has needed no mechanical work save a thermostat and LCA bushings. It also needed a heater hose fitting and a brake light switch. It was my track car from 1996 to 2012.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Really? Original radiator and water pump? That's pretty amazing for that car. Then again, I've been luckier than most older MINI owners, so there you go. I think a lot of "luck" has more to do with paying attention.
Really? Original radiator and water pump? That's pretty amazing for that car. Then again, I've been luckier than most older MINI owners, so there you go. I think a lot of "luck" has more to do with paying attention.
Yes, the M42 four never suffered from the cooling system problems that plagued the M5x sixes. The infamous "profile gasket" was an issue, but that problem was fully solved by mid-1993, IIEC.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
The writer likely just skimmed over it -- the tech probably just shuts the lid to his laptop at night. Otherwise his first mistake is turning his computer off. Boot times are faster than they used to be, but it's still faster just put them on a UPS, let them chill in power-saving sleep mode when idle and then they are ready to go when you need them.
He probably should be lugging it home every night - you never know when you're going to wake up at 3 am with a brainstorm about why a no-start issue only happens in the fog on Tuesdays, and if you are prepared, you can log on and research the issue and make yourself a note for fixing the truck when you get to the shop later that morning.
It is always inspiring to read about superstars, 110 percenters.
Imagine putting that much effort into what he does (we do) only to have someone with no training or qualifications challenge why we have to charge for diagnostics, and use google guesses as the basis of their reasoning.
I was asked recently if R-12 Freon is still being sold anywhere. I assume this is not the case but anyone knows differently I have a friend with a 1965 Buick Skylark Gran Sport that would like to know.
Also, at the time the R-134 systems were introduced I kept hearing how mush expensive work was required to retrofit an R-12 system to R-134. Later I heard it's not that big of a deal. Experts?
R-12 is still available, you are supposed to be licensed to buy it.
Retrofitting was pretty easy and amounted to removing all of the old refrigerant, installing R134 fittings and adding the correct amount of compatible refrigerant oil (usually an Ester based product). You didn't even have to remove the old mineral oil.
BTW. Even though one does not have to be licensed to buy R134a, it is illegal to vent it to the atmosphere and everyone is "supposed to use" recovery equipment.
I was asked recently if R-12 Freon is still being sold anywhere. I assume this is not the case but anyone knows differently I have a friend with a 1965 Buick Skylark Gran Sport that would like to know.
Also, at the time the R-134 systems were introduced I kept hearing how mush expensive work was required to retrofit an R-12 system to R-134. Later I heard it's not that big of a deal. Experts?
From what I have heard R12 is very expensive, so it would probably be cheaper to just convert.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Thanks for the info! I'm one of those who still think the R-12 systems got colder than the R-134's do but it could be a placebo effect.
Oh the stuff we used to do! We would use R-12 cans to cool down choke housings and when I was in the tool business we would demonstrate how to use the leak detectors by blowing a cloud of R-12 into the air and following it around with the detectors!
We would pour coolant into the storm drains. the ocean was three blocks away!
We would arc brake shoes sending clouds of asbestos dust into the air! The junkyards where we would buy our parts were like toxic wastelands. Now, the few that remain are fenced and very sanitary.
Comments
Instead of telling consumers that when they find a great shop/technician they should stick with them and support them, "experts" tell consumers to shop around which is all about putting price first. There are even times when some go as far as to tell them go to the top shop just for the diagnostics and then once the problem is identified, shop the repair. Nothing like slapping the shop/tech in the face for having worked harder than everyone else while having the integrity and discipline to approach the work correctly with a viable, verifiable set of standards.
Each of us can only control we do personally and what happens inside our shops. When a prospective customer turns their back on us embracing some gimmick such as free inspections, they deserve what ever they get.
At least have the decency to cover the full cost of the call to that person who cares! A quarter only gets you halfway there these days (if one can even find a payphone)....
Except in California, where service stations are required to have free air. A few laws/regs actually do look out for the consumer.
(Point taken about "industry").
Ralph inspects my car once or twice a year. He always always finds something wrong, even though I give him the explicit instruction not to find anything (gives us both a laugh). He repairs it and I pay him. I cannot imagine shopping the repair around. Not only a waste of time, but my chances of finding a mediocre or dishonest shop greatly increases the more I shop around.
I rather like the "not to exceed" book cost method, where you get charged for the time it takes, but not more than what the book says it's worth.
Mandating free air most likely raised the price of something else, because there is a real cost for the equipment and air station provided to the consumer. I do not see that as "being on the consumer's side."
>>$90 an hour barely pays your gas getting to a jobsite
The main purpose of money is to throw it at problems you want to go away.
(I'm still waiting for people to throw money in my lap, so I'm still here.
And thus we keep seeing this headline:
Auto Leasing Hits Highest Level on Record, Report Says
The lease returns get CPO'd. At some point it won't be cost effective to try to keep cars running beyond six years.
A $5 Harbor Freight 12v inflator worked for several years and pumped up a low tire one time. they are cheap, but slooow.
The TPMS usually saves my bacon.
Back when I was a kid working in a gas station, there were a lot of jobs that we did for free. We never charged to install things like headlights taillight bulbs wiper blades etc. On oil changes we only charged for the oil and filters etc. We didn't charge labor to install car batteries. Now, shops seem to charge for EVERYTHING!
That's still less labor time than putting a clutch in a Mini Cooper.
Now she needs someone who can solve this issue and put it to rest and she still doesn't want to pay anything which is why it isn't going to the dealer. Since she doesn't want to spend any money, it isn't coming to my shop either.
To quote Professor Farnsworth, GOOD NEWS EVERYBODY: The inspection at 18,000 miles turned up all valves are dead center. Honda does it again. So at least for this portion of my current maintenance, I only owe the inspection charge, which will probably be a couple hundred dollars. At the rate I ride, I won't have the threat of a valve adjustment for ten more years. Yay.
Breaks
More
Wallets
Ask me how I know!
I can't say the numerous old German cars I've owned have personally been a huge burden, but I was able to do some things myself and I am a world-class scrounger and networker.
I once bought a beautiful 7 series BMW for....dirt....absurdly cheap, because the carpets were soaked with puddles of water. Not a flood, but clogged fresh air vent drains. I had to strip out the entire interior and have things professionally cleaned for a couple hundred bucks, but I drove that car for 2 years with no serious issues.
But for the previous owner, the quote to fix the problem was substantial, at $125/hour for labor. Note, too, that a main junction box is under the passenger seat. That was fun.
Over 144k miles my 1995 3er has needed no mechanical work save a thermostat and LCA bushings. It also needed a heater hose fitting and a brake light switch. It was my track car from 1996 to 2012.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
http://www.ratchetandwrench.com/RatchetWrench/July-2016/The-Diagnostics-Pro/?utm_source=KnowledgeMarketing&utm_medium=RW - Newsletter Emails&utm_term=RW - RW Insider&utm_content=RW_TheInsider_20160712&utm_campaign=Streamlining the Diagnostic Process&eid=276170960&bid=1460009
He probably should be lugging it home every night - you never know when you're going to wake up at 3 am with a brainstorm about why a no-start issue only happens in the fog on Tuesdays, and if you are prepared, you can log on and research the issue and make yourself a note for fixing the truck when you get to the shop later that morning.
It is always inspiring to read about superstars, 110 percenters.
Best quote yet: "this scan tool lies, this scan tool doesn’t"
Also, at the time the R-134 systems were introduced I kept hearing how mush expensive work was required to retrofit an R-12 system to R-134. Later I heard it's not that big of a deal. Experts?
Retrofitting was pretty easy and amounted to removing all of the old refrigerant, installing R134 fittings and adding the correct amount of compatible refrigerant oil (usually an Ester based product). You didn't even have to remove the old mineral oil.
BTW. Even though one does not have to be licensed to buy R134a, it is illegal to vent it to the atmosphere and everyone is "supposed to use" recovery equipment.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Oh the stuff we used to do! We would use R-12 cans to cool down choke housings and when I was in the tool business we would demonstrate how to use the leak detectors by blowing a cloud of R-12 into the air and following it around with the detectors!
We would pour coolant into the storm drains. the ocean was three blocks away!
We would arc brake shoes sending clouds of asbestos dust into the air! The junkyards where we would buy our parts were like toxic wastelands. Now, the few that remain are fenced and very sanitary.
"Service and staff was excellent. People were polite and prompt with getting back to me. I also was kept up to date with photos of the progress. "