A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

stever

You either lie on your deathbed wishing you had spent more hours at the office or you don't.

Mr_Shiftright

To excel at most things, unless perhaps you are the rare gifted genius, one has to "pay your dues". And even the genius can crash and burn, because intelligence has to be directed and disciplined.

Ultimately, you will never make the world a fair place to work. You WILL sometimes get screwed. You WILL sometimes be unrecognized, passed over, misunderstood.

Ultimately, you have to be satisfied with yourself, with the work you do, with your own integrity.

There's this wonderful scene in one of Marcel Proust's books. He contrasts two women. One is rich, and has closets full of clothes, which she can easily buy. Many are never worn.

Another is, at best, working class or middle class (not poor). She has a highly developed sense of fashion, of clothes design, of clothes construction. She owns only a few beautiful dresses that she worked hard to either buy or create.

While the richer woman gets a certain enjoyment from her garments, she knows nothing about them. She does not really appreciate what they are. The other woman, however, knows every garment intimately, and understands their basic elements, what constitutes quality, good design. She "knows" the garments. Every time she opens her closet door, she has the full experience.

I never excelled at auto mechanics, but I did at something else. Was I as richly rewarded as others doing the same basic work? No. But I always knew how good the work was, and that I was at the top of my game.

That's a pretty good payoff, right there.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

Ultimately, you will never make the world a fair place to work. You WILL sometimes get screwed. You WILL sometimes be unrecognized, passed over, misunderstood.

Take the "sometimes" out of there and that will be more accurate.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Ultimately, you have to be satisfied with yourself, with the work you do, with your own integrity.

Totally agree, never could have done what I have done without that.

Mr_Shiftright said:

There's this wonderful scene in one of Marcel Proust's books. He contrasts two women. One is rich, and has closets full of clothes, which she can easily buy. Many are never worn.

So do we need a parallel with tools? I would be pretty well off if I could get the cash hat they cost back out of them. However only specific pieces have never been used, although many have never been used enough times that they paid for themselves. There is one big difference between clothes and tools. Clothes you buy for yourself, my tools were bought for other people.

Mr_Shiftright said:

While the richer woman gets a certain enjoyment from her garments, she knows nothing about them. She does not really appreciate what they are. The other woman, however, knows every garment intimately, and understands their basic elements, what constitutes quality, good design. She "knows" the garments. Every time she opens her closet door, she has the full experience.

That just explained why my tools are worth more to me than they are to someone else. I might donate them to a school, or just give the whole collection to one of the shops/techs that I meet over the next decade (or two). But there is no sense having an auctioneer divvy them up. Most of them would end up going to someone who would be like the rich woman in your story.

Mr_Shiftright said:

I never excelled at auto mechanics, but I did at something else. Was I as richly rewarded as others doing the same basic work? No. But I always knew how good the work was, and that I was at the top of my game.

We aren't allowed to say that we are good at being a technician/mechanic, no matter what we have accomplished.

roadburner

Mr_Shiftright said:

I never excelled at auto mechanics, but I did at something else. Was I as richly rewarded as others doing the same basic work? No. But I always knew how good the work was, and that I was at the top of my game.

That's a pretty good payoff, right there.

That's similar to my experience. Most of my classmates are making a lot more money in private practice, while others made it further up the judicial food chain. I happily remained in the trenches- and as a result I only missed a couple of my son's ball games, I had enough free time to write about cars for a great paper and a great magazine, and I also was able to wrench on and track some really fantastic cars. Absolutely no regrets.

Mr_Shiftright

My own personal belief (yours may vary of course) is that there really is no such thing as "the past" or "the future"---these are mental conceptions, either remembering what no longer is, or thinking about what might be.

Given that, the present is actually all there is that's "real". And given that, you'd best be enjoying it.

I"m also a big fan of quitting.

By that I mean, weighing what you are doing, and aren't particularly good at, with the opportunity costs of missing out on what you might be much better at.

If you keep breaking your leg skiing, then quit. Try tennis.

roadburner

I enjoyed my job, but when I had the chance to get out early I did not hesitate; I may yet go back into a law-related job, but right now I'm happy where I'm at.

Michaell

roadburner said:

I enjoyed my job, but when I had the chance to get out early I did not hesitate; I may yet go back into a law-related job, but right now I'm happy where I'm at.

When my dad retired at 55 he had plenty of opportunities to work as an expert witness for insurance companies and such. He passed, started playing golf twice a week and never looked back.

roadburner

Michaell said:

roadburner said:

I enjoyed my job, but when I had the chance to get out early I did not hesitate; I may yet go back into a law-related job, but right now I'm happy where I'm at.

When my dad retired at 55 he had plenty of opportunities to work as an expert witness for insurance companies and such. He passed, started playing golf twice a week and never looked back.

I'd like to find a mediation gig or something similar for maybe a month or so- just to make enough money to put the limited slip in the 2er, get a Snell 2015 helmet, and perhaps pick up a Schwaben scan tool.

Mr_Shiftright

You'd probably be a natural for automotive insurance mediation, although the work won't be steady. You know the old joke about mediators--"If you manage to irritate both sides, you probably made a good decision".

isellhondas

guitarzan said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

As Lee Iacocca famously said about working in the automobile industry---you need to have "fire in your belly".

He was right. If you don't "love it" on some level, then get the hell out.

I'm also reminded of the difference between being a hobbyist and doing something for a living. Mark Twain has this line (paraphrase) about how delightful it is to walk up and down a mountain on a spring day, but that if was your job to do every day, you'd learn to hate it.

Forgive the drawn out soliloquy below but I love talks about work ethics and excellence vs. mediocrity. I think this is one of the most important things to stress to young people especially. Those young mechanics who left? They should all read this post.

I am going to say something which will offend the civilization in general: Most people in the workforce act as though it is a hobby, at least 70-80% if not more. This is a disappointing reality.

Today I administer an enterprise class software product. The documentation for these is terrible and the development tutorials are just as bad. I was lucky and got hired because while every Fortune company has this product, there is no incentive to move from one company to another, so I was hired as a tech guy who will "figure this out along the way."

My first couple of years I worked late every single day. I had no idea that would be the case, and it was painful and not easy. Just like with mechanics, the day was filled with production, requests coming by phone, by e-mail, people stopping at the door and interrupting, just non-stop chaos during a period of huge growth of our company. At "clock out time" I noticed everyone else disappeared. So I figured out that at the end of the day I can poke around this systems and figure out from scratch, "How do I do this? How does this work? Is X capable in this product?" I added major study time to the role, on my own time. Yes we all know it is not fair not to get paid for extra hours, but the reality today is that this is a requirement. What people do not understand is that when you start a new role, you have just begun to go to school.

We have several divisions using this product. They all have people who have been administering it longer than I have. They all call me to find out how XYZ works! For a long time I figured these people were new or had just started with this software. Then I found out they all had 5+ years on me! One thing I noticed that they have in common: They leave at exactly quitting time. Can't do that. The IT role drives the hours. That long line coming out of the IT department at exactly quitting time? Most of those people cannot even have a decent conversation. They are utterly lost. Chair warmers. Refer to my statistic at the top of this post please.

One must be pummeled and dig their way out to get to a competent level.

I would tell these things to anyone starting out. Where do you want to be 5 years from now? Would you like to be the "go to" guy? You can get there. Would you prefer to be like most people who clock in, do the exact work assigned, then leave? You can be that person as well. Not to get religious on anyone, but Christ looked the agrarians in the eye and told them, whatever you put into that field is exactly what you will get out of it. He was acutely aware of man's laziness, and pointed it out to them. I think it is fair to say that mankind never, ever changes.

I know that dealerships are corrupt. From Ford, to Toyota, to Acura, every one has either charged for work they did not do, provide the incorrect parts, or charged me a corrupt rate. I am sure it would be just as terrible an experience to work there. But on the flip side of the coin, the populace has this fairy-tale like picture of work, and a sense of entitlement that someone is required to pay them certain wages and have certain conditions. That is nonsense.

My rule is: Starting a new role or business one must put in 50 hours as employee or 60+ hours as owner, per week for the first 5 years in order to reach a successful level. In this case that means donating 10 extra hours to the company in exchange for an education. Anything less will result in mediocrity or even failure.

Look, I don't like this fact. I am tired! Man I am tired! Ready to retire early! But for lack of a better expression, it is what it is.

guitarzan!!!!! Is it really you?

guitarzan

guitarzan!!!!! Is it really you?

HI! Sure! Nowadays I am active on the Honda VFR800 forums (Do you know what that is? ). But I have been driving my 2000 vehicle all this time and have not felt the need to participate or get advice. Now I am considering a Tacoma which brought up a whole lotta questions for the new vehicle and the old vehicle. So, anything fun I see along the way I will gladly drop into. I hope you are well! BTW, I am considering waiting for the Ridgeline however that will most likely be out of our preset budget. I still do like Honda better, always have.

This topic is a refreshing one just as I am considering leaving my work for good, due to what Mr. S's mentioned of the opportunity costs that exist for each path we take.

roadburner

Mr_Shiftright said:

You'd probably be a natural for automotive insurance mediation, although the work won't be steady. You know the old joke about mediators--"If you manage to irritate both sides, you probably made a good decision".

That's true for judges as well!

roadburner

guitarzan said:

Nowadays I am active on the Honda VFR800 forums (Do you know what that is? ). .

Welcome back! VFRs are really cool- I love the V4! I have a 1996 Speed Triple- not as quick or sophisticated as your Interceptor- it's a rowdy hooligan bike.

isellhondas

guitarzan said:

guitarzan!!!!! Is it really you?

HI! Sure! Nowadays I am active on the Honda VFR800 forums (Do you know what that is? ). But I have been driving my 2000 vehicle all this time and have not felt the need to participate or get advice. Now I am considering a Tacoma which brought up a whole lotta questions for the new vehicle and the old vehicle. So, anything fun I see along the way I will gladly drop into. I hope you are well! BTW, I am considering waiting for the Ridgeline however that will most likely be out of our preset budget. I still do like Honda better, always have.

This topic is a refreshing one just as I am considering leaving my work for good, due to what Mr. S's mentioned of the opportunity costs that exist for each path we take.

Well, stick around! It's been 20 years now since we "met"!

I wonder if we will get a gold watch or maybe a t-shirt?

guitarzan

isellhondas said:

Well, stick around! It's been 20 years now since we "met"!

That is a real nice thought.

stever

OnStar Predicts Repair Issues on Vehicles Including 2016 Chevrolet Silverado

I'm still waiting for the headline where the car tells you it's broken and to please not drive it Tuesday morning between 2 and 3 am while it self-repairs, unless you want to apply the fix immediately.

Mr_Shiftright

"Proactive Alerts" -- what a beautiful spin of words to describe a servicing hustle.

stever

That reminds me - the 3D printer in the garage is out of "ink".

mobe2

I drive a 1999 Lexus LS-400, with a 4.0 V-8 (1UZ-FE) engine, with an automatic transmission and a little over 42000 miles.

I took my car in for Texas state inspection today, and it failed because of the rack and pinion (approx where the steering column connects to the axle). The guy said there was a leak, but nothing was leaking (he showed me, with the car up on the rack). It was just a little moist at that joint.

How bad is this? Is this something that Texas state inspection (it's done by a regular auto repair place) would normally catch? I was told to call to call back for what they charge for a remanufactured (with 99% OEM parts, the guy said) rack and pinion (joint, I guess) (he said the dealership charges $500, but this remanufactured one would be considerably less), and this shop charges $350 for labor. Is this reasonable?

We only drive this car about 2500 miles a year. As I was told, we'll know when it's leaking badly because the steering will become very difficult. Maybe, in the meantime, we could take it to another shop (for auto inspection) which might pass it. I'm not sure where such a shop might be, except in a poorer part of town. I did this in Dallas (with another car) 25 - 30 years ago, and then again in Houston (where I live now) with yet another car, 20 - 25 years ago, Anyone have any opinion on this?

My wife's really in love with this car, and would like to keep it as long as possible.

If you don't wish to post here, you're welcome to E-mail me at [Email removed]

qbrozen

If it is just moist, I would probably wipe it clean and get it re-inspected.

just throwing in a whole new/rebuilt unit without actually tracking down the source of the leak is silly. Keep an eye on the fluid level and top off if needed. If it starts leaving spots on the garage floor and you have to add fluid often, it is probably time to get it fixed.

thecardoc3

More from Automotive News. First from Lithia Group. http://www.autonews.com/article/20160502/RETAIL07/305029993/1147

"We're not having problems anymore" hiring technicians, he told Automotive News. "Our problems were in the energy states, but now that's flowed and loosened. We are even pulling people from there and putting them in other states."

Lithia's business practices earned them the surname of "Evil" among technicians that were working at dealerships that they bought out.

About eight years ago, as the oil boom sucked up thousands of auto technicians, Lithia began aggressively recruiting technicians from technical schools, he said. Lithia also began an internal apprentice program at all of its stores to train those entry-level techs to grow into skilled techs within two years.

Two years isn't enough to train someone to be a technician, beyond the most entry level. Time and again we see the stories related to mistakes that come from a lack of experience associated to junior technicians and instead of addressing that and improving the minimal educational standard the tendency is to still try and grab a handful of prospects, throw them into the water and see if any of them manage to swim.

"We have definitive recruiting programs at most of the technical schools," DeBoer said. "But the stores also provide them with the tools and training to expand their careers."

That sentiment isn't shared by techs across the country. The oil boom did create an opportunity for many techs across the country to walk away from the trade. Some of them are coming back and they are being very careful with their career choices.

Mr_Shiftright

This is called "weepage" and in most cases, automakers would not replace the rack under warranty for a "weep". I agree, I'd clean it off thoroughly and have it re-inspected somewhere else.

Power steering leaks and rack failures are not all that uncommon on the LS400, but given your low mileage a rack failure seems quite premature. Since we aren't even sure of the source of the leak, I wouldn't jump in on this.

I'm also not sure the repair estimate is correct. It seems way too low.

You definitely need a second opinion on this.

thecardoc3

http://www.autonews.com/article/20160502/RETAIL07/305029994/1147

It's a good story, but the devil is in the details.
Norman Braman believes he can broaden the pool of service technicians and provide a service to his community at the same time.

That's the right perspective, especially the providing a service to the community at large.

Located in the service center for Braman's downtown Miami dealerships, the center trains inner-city high school graduates to become service technicians.

Stop for a minute and ponder why this is targeted at "inner city graduates". This isn't about whether they can be great candidates or not, of course they can. The uncomfortable perspective comes from realizing that most of the kids who could be great techs have no interest in pursuing the career and the reasons for that are well documented.

About 85 percent of the program graduates find jobs. Many are offered and accept jobs at Braman's service center. Some wind up at other area dealerships.

Braman said he wants to have a positive impact on students' lives.

"You have to understand the history of this location. It's the middle of Miami, and for many, many years, we were pressured to leave this area," he told Automotive News.

"It was a high crime area, and it was in the middle of many of the racial disturbances in Miami in the 1970s and '80s," he said. "I always wanted to have a program here taking young people from the area and teaching them to be technicians, the parts business, body shop and so forth, and to affect their lives in a very positive manner."


That section needs to be quoted as is, efforts like this should be praised and supported. The last sentence says it all with the goal to be to "affect their lives in a very positive manner".
Remember that one and that troubling detail that a repair technicians career is a job that (almost) nobody else wants.

There are a few more positive key points. Each class starting out with about twenty students. 1800 hours worth of training and working in the afternoons apprenticing alongside existing technicians, and more. It's greatest impact is in the fact that 85% of the students are finding jobs as a result of this program.

That's a huge investment for Mr. Braman and so far they have two techs hired two years ago who are on successful paths. Now out of those sixty candidates, he also has two new promising graduates that have just been hired. What could possibly be wrong with this story?

What is missing is exactly what work are these men doing? Are they progressing and starting to take on the more difficult and technical tasks or is the quoted income level based on the selling of services that is generally loathed by consumers and preached against by "experts" ?

It takes decades to master the craft, and that's one aspect of all of this that is not addressed by either this, nor the previous story that was linked. If management continues to turn a blind eye to what the job really demands and doesn't figure out that the career path needs to promote and reward wrenching as a lifelong choice the shops and the consumers as well will still keep encountering the shortage of qualified technicians. The toughest hurdle is that it shouldn't be necessary to be promoted out of the bays to be viewed as successful. Given the demands of the career, there should be more done to make any other move out of the bays a step down, not up. Then Mr. Braman's goal of impacting these men's in a positive way (and any women's) will be fully realized.

stever

Some countries (Germany) slot and career track their kids by the 9th grade. We don't and somewhere we got the idea that every kid should go to college (as opposed to tech school or straight into the workforce or an apprenticeship).

A few of the kids in the German school over at Holloman AFB in Alomogordo NM resent being pigeon-holed but overall the system seems to work for them.

I dunno about the decades requirement. One of my hobbies is a craft and I managed to create a nice rug in 4 weeks (only working at it twice a week). I may never master the craft but it's "good enough". The BMW tech nephew I've talked about before was productive in 6 months and seemed to manage just fine at his dealership in the few years he was a tech before deciding to take over the family business.

Gladwell's 10,000 hour rule (to master something) didn't hold up to scrutiny either. 1,800 hours is 75 days - probably more that some people need, and some people will never figure it out.

roadburner

Mr_Shiftright said:

This is called "weepage" and in most cases, automakers would not replace the rack under warranty for a "weep". I agree, I'd clean it off thoroughly and have it re-inspected somewhere else.

Power steering leaks and rack failures are not all that uncommon on the LS400, but given your low mileage a rack failure seems quite premature. Since we aren't even sure of the source of the leak, I wouldn't jump in on this.

I'm also not sure the repair estimate is correct. It seems way too low.

You definitely need a second opinion on this.

If the rack is in fact just weeping it should NOT require replacement. It sounds like inspection "failures" are a profit center for that shop. I would have replaced dozens of P/S hoses, pumps and racks if I swapped out every one with a damp spot on it.

thecardoc3

That's a nice link and it fits well with the discussion.

Gladwell's 10,000 hour rule (to master something) didn't hold up to scrutiny either. 1,800 hours is 75 days - probably more that some people need, and some people will never figure it out.

Further down the page is a link where he responds to the critics.
http://www.businessinsider.com/malcolm-gladwell-explains-the-10000-hour-rule-2014-6

In context, there is a big difference between going to school for a few years, apprenticing in this trade and beginning to work in a shop as compared to what it takes to master it. @stever , you may not know about the "decades" requirement, but I do. With close to forty years of learning already behind me and you have gotten just the tiniest sample of that with some of the repair routines that I have shared here over the last few years, I find myself facing much more study ahead of me just trying to keep pace with the robotics that is showing up in today's cars. In that aspect alone, it isn't ten thousand hours, its more than that because there is no finish line for us. If we fail to continue to grow and be able to deal with all of the new stuff coming out we fail. We don't get to rest on the laurels of "good enough".

Let's look at just one aspect of the multitude of things a seasoned tech has to deal with today. In just this past year, I've got close to three hundred hours just studying the sonar, radar and camera systems that are making the lane departure and correction systems as well as emergency braking and park assist functions possible. It's guys like me that will turn around and use our experience and insight to come up with routines that will make diagnosing and servicing this stuff easier for the rest of the techs. Meanwhile, that requires us to still have to remain proficient with the more ordinary work that techs get assigned and that doesn't happen if we don't do that work and keep practicing it too. BTW, that's what paying our dues really costs.

It's served a lot of other people's perspectives to practice a form of dhimmitude towards service technicians for way too long and its time for that to be brought to an end.

stever

My point was that it doesn't take that much time to jump in and get your feet wet, and you'll still be able to handle most of whatever gets tossed at you.

There's always been the rule about "the more you know the less you know" but that's mostly just knowing that you'll never know it all. Doesn't mean that someone with decades less knowledge can't do your job. Look at Traf-O-Data where a couple of punks who didn't know any better jumped into a craft and got their feet wet..

Mr_Shiftright

At my friend's Porsche/Audi shop, he searched for a long time for another tech, and finally found a young fellow who was trained by Porsche in Germany. He fit right in, just nailed it from Day One.

thecardoc3

stever said:

My point was that it doesn't take that much time to jump in and get your feet wet, and you'll still be able to handle most of whatever gets tossed at you.

Should I bother to tell you what your point was from someone else's perspective?

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

At my friend's Porsche/Audi shop, he searched for a long time for another tech, and finally found a young fellow who was trained by Porsche in Germany. He fit right in, just nailed it from Day One.

That's great that the found each other. I wish every story was like that.

stever

thecardoc3 said:

stever said:

My point was that it doesn't take that much time to jump in and get your feet wet, and you'll still be able to handle most of whatever gets tossed at you.

Should I bother to tell you what your point was from someone else's perspective?

Sure, it's always good to hear "the other side".

Sometimes, occasionally, rarely people have even been known to change their minds about something.

Okay, that never happens.

thecardoc3

When it comes to being a tech, do you know what my best attribute is? I'm not afraid of having to do hard work.

mobe2

Thank you, qbrozen and Mr. Shiftright (I've seen your posts before), for your advice. It really eases my mind if that's all I need to do to pass inspection.

I'll wipe that joint off before I take the car somewhere else to be re-inspected. How likely is it that the rack and pinion will get moist again between the time I wipe it off, and the time I get it to the shop for inspection? (I plan to drive it straight there.)

qbrozen

Really no clue. Depends on how bad the leak is. You'll soon find out.

Mr_Shiftright

I consulted with Madam Zuma and she read the tea leaves and said you'd be fine, but if not, perhaps you need to come back for further consultation!

guitarzan

stever said:

A few of the kids in the German school over at Holloman AFB in Alomogordo NM resent being pigeon-holed but overall the system seems to work for them.
.

Most people have no idea what they want to do until they have experienced different jobs! I rail against his idea that we all stay in school, and develop an expertise, then go and work that area for 40 years. Those who do not have the "pre-ordained" career should start college at 30, once they have been given a chance to identify what they truly enjoy. How many times did all of you hear as a senior in high school, "I have no idea what I want to do." The school system does not service us well, except as a business that forces everyone down a funnel.

stever said:

The BMW tech nephew I've talked about before was productive in 6 months and seemed to manage just fine at his dealership in the few years he was a tech before deciding to take over the family business.

Gladwell's 10,000 hour rule (to master something) didn't hold up to scrutiny either. 1,800 hours is 75 days - probably more that some people need, and some people will never figure it out.

Each car problem has a procedure to identify what is wrong and a procedure to fix it. So it makes sense that someone who works hard can, as you say, be "productive" very quickly. Gladwell's rule is about being "world class" not being merely "productive." Also, you cannot count all hours at work as robust study and practice. Most of what people do at work is handle well-known issues. It is a small percentage of our days that involve troubleshooting unknown problems. So you must only include the time your nephew has spent studying those "mysteries of life" that perhaps two other mechanics were previously unable to resolve. That true growth practice extends over a very long period of time for most roles. As perhaps you can tell I believe in Gladwell's rule. Being a slow learner myself, I am quite sure that all of the mediocre performers out there are mediocre only because they have not tried harder.

Reading about thecardoc3's career, he reminds us that it is the people who create the procedures who are the experts. Anyone should be able to follow a decent procedure handed to them on a platter. Note I am not denigrating mechanics but am simply pointing out the various levels where one can sit in that same role.

kyfdx

thecardoc3 said:

When it comes to being a tech, do you know what my best attribute is? I'm not afraid of having to do hard work.

That's the best attribute for any worker..

stever

Fun thread. I think I'm on my 5th career and my wife had 10 jobs in 30 years. Still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.

Gladwell's pop-sci has a lot of holes. What about all those garage musicians who put in their 10,000 hours and only succeed in irritating the neighbors (maybe golf is the better analogy, lol). Slow or just in the wrong field?

Any software program should be able to follow a decent diagnosis procedure. Most repair manuals are just flow charts - they often leave a lot between connecting the dots but software can learn too.

And why work harder if you can work smarter?

Some people say it's not about the bike (i.e., it's not about the tools), but Lance was supported with good equipment when he was barely a teen. He had to do the work, but he'd be nowhere if he'd been stuck on a Schwinn Varsity all through high school.

guitarzan

stever said:

Fun thread. I think I'm on my 5th career and my wife had 10 jobs in 30 years. Still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.

Gladwell's pop-sci has a lot of holes. What about all those garage musicians who put in their 10,000 hours and only succeed in irritating the neighbors (maybe golf is the better analogy, lol). Slow or just in the wrong field?

As a rock musician I can speak oh so clearly to this.

Most rock musicians do not study the craft nor know anything about music theory. While they give you the mistaken impression that they are "practicing" (HAHAHA THAT'S FUNNY) They are just "jamming", not studying. Also, the majority of the guitar you hear on the radio is easy to play. The classical and jazz musicians tend to have an interest in becoming world class. Pop musicians just want to play pop music, which does not require much skill. Given that they are putting in a minimal effort to play together, and are not really studying, they probably will not become competent let alone world class.

The second thing is motivation. Any average person can buy an instrument and use music to get away from the trials of work and school. The garage band musicians just spent 8 hours working hard and now just want to make noise. Judge them by the work they did earlier in the day. Judging their jam time is like judging your best buddy's bowling. He didn't study it, but rather it just an outing. These are the reasons why that band is still terrible after all these years LOL.

In a rock band I was in years ago our drummer could not keep a beat if it bit him. This guy has been continuously playing for years in clubs. There are few rock drummers available because parents don't want the noise in their house. So he always has paying work. But there is something "off" about everything he plays. We cannot count any of his years against the 10,000 hours though.

Gladwell never applies to chair-warming hours. We must identify a serious student before we attempt to apply his rule.

stever

Nah, if you didn't make it, the reason is because you were born in the wrong month (another Gladwell theory).

There's probably a correlation between the first week of band practice at the high school and musicianship.

guitarzan

thecardoc3 said:

When it comes to being a tech, do you know what my best attribute is? I'm not afraid of having to do hard work.

While music has been brought up...Years ago studying guitar my teacher was trying to teach me theory and I lamented that I may not have any talent for that instrument. He wrote out "talent" in tiny letters on the paper, and HARD WORK in gigantic letters. He stated that talent does not even come into play for a long long time. I did not believe it then because of the mental trouble I had with music theory, but his point is gospel for me today. Those who put in the time will in fact get it, with very rare exceptions.

guitarzan

stever said:

Nah, if you didn't make it, the reason is because you were born in the wrong month (another Gladwell theory).

There's probably a correlation between the first week of band practice at the high school and musicianship.

I think it was Gladwell who said that the poor performers in a class (elementary school, high school) are usually the youngest ones. Meaning that a 6 year old is far more mature than the 5 year old entering school early, so the 5 year old is likely to be the student that falls behind. Am I pointing out the same point you are referring to? If yes, do you have trouble with that? I think there is a huge distance in maturity by age for young people. This makes perfect sense, and he seems to have statistical data to back it up.

The corollary to this is that schools segregate people into dumb, average, and smart in the 3rd or 4th grade. Very few people change roles once they have been assigned by the system to one of these groups. Unfortunately these groups are an immutable label. The fact is that these labels are premature, and a kid will do what they are told. If they are told that they are smart, they will perform. If child is put in remedial classes, that is a clear and well-known signal to them that they are dumb, and from then on out they will not perform. Some of the smartest people I know in adulthood were put in the low-level groups early on, and expressed these feelings to me, that they were pretty much being told they were stupid, and they believed it. So to the point, it is not wholly one's birth month, but that is in fact the seed that feeds all of these moronic maneuvers that the public school system makes in response.

This age thing will dramatically affect math, science, English and such however music is a bit different. If you are not talking college studies or private studies then music is done mostly for fun. Most people are in orchestra or band for fun. There is a very limited amount of skill that a person in a group of 100+ members can achieve as the director splits their time between everyone.

I have had nightmares more recently remembering this: Sometime in junior high or high school my violin instructor told me she wanted me to take private lessons. I didn't get that at all. I completely rejected it without a second thought. Violin was only "fun" for me. This attitude is typical of kids, unfortunately. I was given the correct advice to build those 10,000 hours, and I clearly had the capability. I was only second in violin to those who had taken private lessons. I can tell you, there is a well-defined leap between those who study privately and those who don't. I can say that minimal practice got me through. These are volunteer organizations, and anyone is welcome to join. Some schools are able to elevate the band, orchestra, or choir to quite high levels. That does exist and those are really awesome directors, and I know some like that. But you will not find a great deal of musicianship among those who do not study privately. That is a rarity.

stever

If the 5 year old misses the cut by one day, the 6 year gets the benefit of the coaching and teaching. She then advances and gets singled out for extracurricular help. The kid who misses out by one day misses out completely and never can catch up.

That theory has a bit more weight to it than the 10,000 hour one, at least superficially, since you can look up the birthdays of maestros and potentially find a correlation.

Then there was the mechanic in my home town in the 60s who had been hacking at cars for three decades. He always had come-backs.

But he was cheap.

guitarzan

stever said:

If the 5 year old misses the cut by one day, the 6 year gets the benefit of the coaching and teaching. She then advances and gets singled out for extracurricular help. The kid who misses out by one day misses out completely and never can catch up.

I don't quite understand you. The five year old may miss the kindergarten cut and enter school the following year. They are now the oldest kid in their class, and according to the theory, will be among the top performing, mainly due to their maturity vs. the same subject material they are exposed to.

stever said:

...you can look up the birthdays of maestros and potentially find a correlation.

Except for the ones that dropped out of school, where this relation wouldn't apply. Many of the most successful people in history dropped out of school because it was far beneath them, and they realized how worthless school is. Seriously, I wish I had that foresight at 14 years old and had gone right to work.

stever

The age cut off ("Unacknowledged handicaps rooted in arbitrary cut-off dates") was aimed more at ballplayers but the it's still pretty arbitrary. My sister-in-law, the retired teacher, held her two boys back a year for the "maturity" factor. But they still did other activities in their age group.

I went to school in Mississippi. Talk about worthless.

thecardoc3

stever said:

And why work harder if you can work smarter?

It's easy to say it, lets see you try and show someone how to do it. BTW, that's what I do these days, show the techs HOW to work smarter. Funny how much hard work it took to be able to do that......

mobe2

Just wanted to let you all what happened with my rack and pinion. I tried to wipe, but when I got under the car, it seemed that the rack and pinion was all sealed up and there was nothing to wipe (please forgive my ignorance about cars). So I found a 10% off state inspection coupon at Jiffy Lube, and went over there. All I did was the state inspection, and the car passed, no problem.

Thanks to all of you for all of your help.

guitarzan

thecardoc3 said:

stever said:

And why work harder if you can work smarter?

It's easy to say it, lets see you try and show someone how to do it. BTW, that's what I do these days, show the techs HOW to work smarter. Funny how much hard work it took to be able to do that......

What percentage of techs you encounter want to work smarter? What percentage put in 110% effort?

thecardoc3

It only takes one to help make a difference.

thecardoc3

After thinking about this for a little bit I decided that it could use a little bit more of a complete answer. How many techs give their all and want to improve themselves? Just about all of them do at some point in their careers, the question that needs to be asked is what makes some of them change and stop trying to learn more. Look around the forums and see how techs are commonly treated and imagine what that does to someone when they are repeatedly faulted for the actions of someone else.