We have to confront a 40' long shelf of various oils with various claims and a bunch of different "approved" specifications and labels and competing standards or trust that our mechanic is putting oil in the car that won't somehow void the drivetrain warranty
This is news?
How does resisting advising the customer of these facts help them? How does resisting advising shops and technicians help them advise their customers correctly?
They really do have recap tech down pat these days..BUT...it sure puts the onus on two specific types of road users to be on top of things in order for the tech to be considered a relatively safe and usable public product. The first type being the heavy truck operator who should always ensure he has the right PSI in 'em..(the number ONE cause of failures, the tech is that good.. but not if abused... and low PSI is blatant ignorant abuse).
The other type is the bike rider, who either is thoughtful enough to consider what can happen to them if when they see the recaps on the road, what musta taken place first in order for it to get there..or, hopefully has had a fellow biker teach him/her to simply not hang around heavy trucks any longer than necessary when passing. And definitely don't frig follow one I still see that all the time..a rider following vehicles they can't see around. And the very worst is a big truck because they not only have big ground clearance which means a driver isn't gonna swerve (a tell tale) if he doesn't have to for a muffler or pc of 4x4 on the road, but also if they pick something up off the road and pitch it out behind them, it can be a very violent scene, and depending on what it is..cause a hot (abused) recap to also come off at the same time...all with huge potential to really level a rider following..
A big change for me was going from 10-30 to 10-40 to 5w-30. Pick one and slap a starburst on it and I'll grab the jug that's on sale this week. That's helping me, the customer.
My stepfather owned a retread shop and I worked there one summer. I've seen dozens of recaps lose their tread (because we guaranteed them).
I was driving his '72 Econoline on I-75, when the left front gave way. For a 16 year old driver, that was quite an experience. I can still see that tread flying up in front of the windshield. :surprise:
Well, it certainly is better to be informed on oil specs, and then decide for yourself how to proceed. I, like most people, thought the proper oil viscosity and a good quality oil was everything you needed to know.
I asked a good friend of mine, pretty good at working on cars, if he knew what kind of oil his Trans Am took. He stated the viscosity. But did not know anything about manufacturer specs. So, now he knows.
Have you noticed any pressure to try and make that confusing for you here?
Yeah. Shifty and Steve aren't know to be trouble makers in these parts of the forums. Bet they got stock in cheap oil and a franchise or two of Jiffy Lube. :mad:
A big change for me was going from 10-30 to 10-40 to 5w-30.
Bet you hated it when they stopped using points and condensers too.
Pick one and slap a starburst on it and I'll grab the jug that's on sale this week.
Some oil companies like it when that's all the education and understanding that their customers have. But like points and condensers that's history too.
That's helping me, the customer.
That WAS how to help the customer in the past. The cars changed and are continuing to evolve. Their maintanence and care has to evolve too. You wanted extended drain intervals, and you got them. You wanted more power, and at the same time better fuel economy, and the government wants lower emissions and the auto manufacturers are figuring out ways try and make everyone happy. That means more exotic engine designs, and more sophisticated controls. It also requires better and more robust lubrication, while not losing the fuel economy aspect of the equation. So they have tighter bearing clearances, that means a thinner oil has to be used, because a thicker oil doesn't flow fast enough in all areas of the engine. Remember, thicker oil or cranking the oil pressure up might cover a crank bearing or cam journal in the head, but it won't cool a piston as well. The manufacturers need the oil to do both of these and more.
Greater levels of ZDDP will protect a camshaft better, but it will shorten catalyst and O2 sensor lifespans. An oil company can claim they will protect the engine should a warranty claim arise, but if they kill the emissions system in the process, then they didn't save the customer any money at all. The right product has to protect the emissions system and the engine as well.
That's helping me, the customer.
The final point on all of this is inside this forum, you aren't "The Consumer" and you really can't speak for them. Outside of the forum, everyone is a consumer and these changes affect all of us. I wrote a while back about asking Ron to take part in this. If this is all about consumers, then his article needs a complete overhaul. It's easy to tell people what they want to hear, that also makes articles like his popular. It takes a lot more courage to tell people what the facts really are, especially when they prefer to potentially be someone else's victim and then get to try and turn around and blame someone else for the problems they encounter.
Come to think of it, that last line of the last paragrapgh sums up a lot of the real problem. Consumer experts, need consumers to be victims so that they have something to do. Maybe that's why they don't really try to tell the consumers the hows, and whys about caring for today's cars.
Whenever I've attempted to expose consumers involuntarily to the torture of a lecture on oil shear, they seem to slump into the posture of cave men watching a campfire.
I like to think many want to know a lot of this stuff but simply haven't been exposed to it often enough for it to really start to stick, especially when compared to all of the noise that is trying to keep their understanding exactly where it is right now.
Most want to open their owner's manual (presuming they still have it) and turn to page 84, and point to that and tell the repair shop that this is what they want---or they presume that the shop is on page 84 without them asking.
So for that to be the case, then they also need to see that I am winning this debate. If I had lost it, then there is no incentive for them to do anything but bargain hunt and get the cheapest dead dinosaur remains dumped into their car that they can find. By my winning this debate, now they and their shop has a chance to know that they need to open that book and read what the print really says, which often includes a manufacturer specification that is beyond the API and ILSAC ratings today.
I like the idea of better oil. My preference is for "the" standards body to set the specs and for the manufacturers to make sure their engines can perform using oil having those specs. Having to buy Honda oil or an oil whose specification and trademark are exclusive to General Motors doesn't appeal to me.
And definitely don't frig follow one I still see that all the time..a rider following vehicles they can't see around
I was at the Ford training center in Pittsburgh back in the early 80's. On the way home, the parkway west I was moving along with traffic at a very comfortable distance from the car in front of me (about 65mph). I had such a good space inbetween me and the car in front of me that some guy moved into my lane between us and now I was instantly too close. Before I could even back down, he straddled a piece of concrete from the median. I re-acted as fast as I could, and the rest of the matter was a combination of luck, and the result of thousands of hours of riding in the strip mines, and the fact that I was on a small (250cc) very light bike. The first reaction was to try and go around it, but that proved impossible so I straightened up and caught it upright, and with my weight back. The front wheel bent some six inches, but the tire didn't rupture. The next few seconds was a fork shake that had the handle bars nearly striking the tank. All I could do was keep my hands firmly on the grips and let my arms move with the handlebars as I reduced speed. The cars that were behind me saw all of this and they had slowed as well giving me all the room that I needed, and I was eventually able to cross the other lane to the shoulder. That event really should have ended a lot differently when you think about it.
And there...already we have gone full circle, back to my original "pick one" post.
It really does boil down to that.
And FWIW, having to buy only an OEM branded oil doesn't appeal to me either, but is the only other solution so customers (and unfortunately many shops) are protected from their ignorance.
Wasn't your time, doc..and you are right, a good amount of luck and skill. The fact that the tire didn't blow with such a deep rim bend, sorta suggests luck played the bigger roll. And nowadays so many are on their cell phones, you can't count on that type of reaction from following drivers, so you were lucky there too.
That's fine. This however is about the cars people already own and what they need to know in order to service their cars correctly today.
I like the idea of better oil
Does EVERYBODY?
My preference is for "the" standards body to set the specs and for the manufacturers to make sure their engines can perform using oil having those specs.
You can have a preference for any imaginary standard. We have to deal with reality.
Having to buy Honda oil or an oil whose specification and trademark are exclusive to General Motors doesn't appeal to me.
So then you prefer that someone not tell you truth, even though that is the case today?
You and I are similar age and been riding similar number of years. I can honestly say that in order to survive this long, it does take a forward thinking rider with extra skill sets oriented towards only two wheels. Some riders, just like so many other aspects in life, are better suited to it than others. For those of us that have made it this long..there is definitely an extra element that complements those decades..it is also no small level of good luck. Our skills can improve our odds enormously, but without some good luck you can quickly become just another statistic. I have lost friends on bikes. Yes plural The last one was a culmination of taking chances that I had urged him not to take for years...the luck ran out, and stupidity reined supreme
"2. How does dexosTM1 differ from ILSAC GF-5 and API SN/Resource Conserving? The dexosTM1 specification provides for greater control of deposits, more restrictive volatility requirements and introduces an aeration requirement. Interestingly it lacks the emissions system protection and E-85 compatibility requirements of the ILSAC and API specifications and only requires the fuel efficiency of the older ILSAC GF-4 and API SM/Energy Conserving specifications. The more restrictive volatility requirement is likely to require greater use of synthetic base oils in dexosTM1 oils as compared to oils just meeting the API/ILSAC specifications. Any Valvoline oil meeting the dexosTM1 specification will also meet the ILSAC GF-5 and API SN/Resource Conserving specifications.
"3. Can I use dexosTM1 in a pre-2011 MY GM vehicle or in other types of vehicles? Oils meeting the dexosTM1 1 specification are backward compatible and can be used in earlier model year GM vehicles. Oils meeting only dexosTM1 may not meet the API or ILSAC standards and should not be used in other makes. In all likelihood, however; most oils meeting dexosTM1 will also carry ILSAC GF-5 and API SN/Resource Conserving credentials and so can be used with other makes."
You can have a preference for any imaginary standard. We have to deal with reality.
Well, continuing to cater/defend? a system that is obviously not working, then your statement here becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy does it not?
I know the cater/defend comment is gonna make you rebel, but how else can a person interpret your take on things? Yes, you're an educator, an informer and you want to do the right thing for your customers. We (I) get that, but you were pretty quick to pull the imaginary standard vs reality card, so ya..it comes off a bit like defending a system that is clearly not working.
We (I) get that, but you were pretty quick to pull the reality card, so ya..it comes off a bit like defending a system that is clearly not working.
In many way's it isn't working essentially because there is no system across the board in place yet. The problem is there are people who want it to stay that way.
Well, continuing to cater/defend? a system that is obviously not working, then your statement here becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy does it not?
You can have a preference for any imaginary standard. We have to deal with reality.
You'll have to explain your view of what that say's to you a little better for me. We have to deal with how things are, feigning a tantrum because things aren't how we wish them to be isn't going to change anything. A one size fits all oil standard isn't a realistic option anymore and nothing is going to change that. So instead of leading the consumers down an imaginary path, they need a steady, accurate and consistent source of information from the people who claim to be experts, as well as from the people who really are. JMHO.
I am with Steve in a way (assuming I am still following the debate!). I blame the car makers for the problem.
Basically, I feel that if there are standards, the car makers should design around them. Not come up with an engine with such tight tolerances (or whatever is causing the problems like sludge) that it has to have some 1 of a kind "new" product to survive.
It almost sounds like a case of scientists existing in their lab vacuum, as opposed to understanding there is a real world that the customers have to live in.
As a car owner, I really should be able to walk into the auto parts store and grab a bottle that meets all applicable standards and be fine, with whatever the current SAE ratings are being backward compatible.
it just seems to be getting too darned complicated and risky, especially if professionals aren't able to keep it all straight! I am sure that GM, etc. will just say you should never do it yourself, and only go to the dealer, but even then I think Doc has said you might not get the exact, specific formula for you car.
Basically, I feel that if there are standards, the car makers should design around them. Not come up with an engine with such tight tolerances (or whatever is causing the problems like sludge) that it has to have some 1 of a kind "new" product to survive.
So you want the oil companies to dictate the advance of the technology that is going into todays engines? I'll remind you about SAE16 "A", and "B" that should have come out more than five years ago, and isn't out yet. By the time it does come out, it will be already obsolete. Think about that for a moment.
it just seems to be getting too darned complicated and risky, especially if professionals aren't able to keep it all straight!
Heck if you think this part is tough, come spend a week in my shop and see what we really do day in and day out. The only thing difficult about this is overcoming the resistance to the change.
I am sure that GM, etc. will just say you should never do it yourself, and only go to the dealer, but even then I think Doc has said you might not get the exact, specific formula for you car.
Correct, hence the reason for increased consumer awareness, and everyone elses needs to get into a classroom ASAP.
not the oil companies. The SAE does the ratings/standards, right? somehow all this new stuff GM comes up with has to filter back into the marketplace and be standardized.
Just has to be a better way than each company inventing their own proprietary stuff all the time. Isn't that why the standard grading was created for oil, etc. in the first place?
somehow all this new stuff GM comes up with has to filter back into the marketplace and be standardized
You can't hang this on GM. Just about every manufacturer is dealing with their engines and emissions systems exceeding the current API and ILSAC minimal standards.
You'll have to explain your view of what that say's to you a little better for me.
I guess all I can really do is try to reiterate my thoughts, and they are pertinent to your other quotes too..
In many way's it isn't working essentially because there is no system across the board in place yet. The problem is there are people who want it to stay that way.
And:
A one size fits all oil standard isn't a realistic option anymore and nothing is going to change that.
Since we agree the system isn't working, and that due to; speed with which technology progresses, driven by govt regs, tree-huggers, and lazy car owner's who resist taking responsibility for maintaining their cars at more attentive intervals, then probably any efforts to massage the present system into one that works on this moving scale, will just create more bureaucracy, confusion, loop-holes, delays, ifs ands or buts.
So is why:
A one size fits all oil standard isn't a realistic option anymore and nothing is going to change that.
I say use an OEM branded oil. So many loop-holes and excuses are avoided that way. Perhaps a levy or some form of legal control could ensure that a monopolized price fix thing doesn't get abused. How about having ONE price for ALL oil viscosity ranges among ALL brands of vehicles?
So put it on the mfgrs..
Those guys deal with things like this all the time. The gvt sets down rules, it's gotta be this green, get this amt of mpg minimum etc etc and the mfgrs build to conform to their spec. They make it work. If all mfrgs are having to play by the same universal rules ACROSS the board, (i.e. forced to build an engine that requires the same damn spec oil as there competitor does) I see it as a solution that would work.
It's this moving scale of progress, that makes these parameters that much harder to meet, so the solution isn't going to be that simple. The closer you bring the book-ends together, the fewer the grey areas of mis-interpretation.
Interesting indeed, and LOL, I just noticed your title,Hardly.
Go to the bottom of that linked page and look at the ACEA specs quoted.
How does ACEA A1 meet GM's dexos spec? ACEA A1 is a specification that was obsoleted in 2004 when they went to the A1/B1 designation. ACEA A1 was a thin light oil good for year round use. dexos1 is a long life oil, so that the least it should have been an ACEA A5. The ACEA A5 was a thin light oil capable of year round use and long life. That also is obsolete and should be ACEA A5/B5.
There is a lot of information on that page, you need to study and see what it really is saying. The ACEA A1/B1-07 (2007 revision)was significantly different than the ACEA A1/B1-04 which greatly exceeded anything before it. This is 2013, do you know what the latest revision for ACEA is? That also means the ACEA A1 spec quoted is at least ten years obsolete.
The SynPower MST quoted for the European vehicles, it is approved for the specs as listed. You can go to those manufacturers sites (just like GM's dexos) and find it listed. Its almost funny that its been this way for years in Europe, that the manufacturers set the specs, and the oil companies meet them. But here in North America there is pressure for it to be the other way around.
BTW do me a favor. Go to your local parts store, and/or convenience store and get me a picture of a bottle of that SynPower MST 5W30.
>the manufacturers set the specs, and the oil companies meet them. But here in North America there is pressure for it to be the other way around.
That's what I'm seeing when I read the whole page from Valvoline. It seemed more tightly written than a press release in the middle of a hot political campaign with no honesty on either side?
I sounds llike the payment to GM for royalty or rights is the stickler.
It's interesting how when VW or BMW has an obscure (to us in the US) requirement, it's greeted as chic and forward looking by the devoted here. In fact, didn't BMW set gasoline additives on path with their requirements for injector cleaning a couple decades back.
But GM moves forward on engine oil properties and it's resisted by the oil companies--just as cardoc says.
It's interesting how when VW or BMW has an obscure (to us in the US) requirement, it's greeted as chic and forward looking by the devoted here. In fact, didn't BMW set gasoline additives on path with their requirements for injector cleaning a couple decades back.
But GM moves forward on engine oil properties and it's resisted by the oil companies--just as cardoc says.
Yep, you got it.
Then only points I need to add is that it isn't just the oil companies who are resisting, and it isn't only GM's that the owners need to be confirming the specifications on. (Ford, Chrysler, Honda, etc.)
I'm not sure why you would call car owners "lazy" for not pouring through oil standards or ANY maintenance standards for that matter---isn't that what I pay my mechanic $135/hour to do?
I'm paying this man not for what he does but for what he KNOWS.
You and I are similar age and been riding similar number of years. I can honestly say that in order to survive this long, it does take a forward thinking rider with extra skill sets oriented towards only two wheels. Some riders, just like so many other aspects in life, are better suited to it than others
I tell people that I assume that I am invisible- and that if anyone can see me, that they will try and kill me. I always cover my brake whenever there is even the most infinitesimal opportunity for someone to pull out from a side street or turn left in front of me. As I told my son(this applies to cars and bikes), if you continually assume that other drivers/riders are always going to do make the most moronic decision(s) that they can, you will seldom be surprised.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
But GM moves forward on engine oil properties and it's resisted by the oil companies--just as cardoc says
It doesn't matter one bit to me whether Munich or Detroit specs an oil, I'll just seek it out and use it. Thirty or so years ago I'd wager that more than half of BMW drivers were hard-core gearheads. Today I'd put that number at 5% or less. At least BMW can be relatively sure that their cars use the correct oil for at least 50,000 miles, since they are paying for all maintenance up to that point.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Speaking all these specific lubricants required by manufacturers, who do you buy them from? Even if the average consumer is diligent about picking the correct one, I've read that counterfeit products are a problem.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
if anything, this works against Doc's business, because it is one of the big reasons I take my new cars to the dealer to have oil changes and routine service done. That way, if something does go wrong, they can't blame it on me or the indy shop I hired.
and if the Honda/Acura dealer can't put the right fluids in, what chance is there that some local guy is going to worry about it?
Oh, I really hated it when points and condensors went away!
It used to be so much fun to charge up a condensor between a spark pulg and the engine block. Then we would leave them on a workbench and wait to hear the scream!
Speaking all these specific lubricants required by manufacturers, who do you buy them from
When necessary, the dealer. Otherwise I source through the major parts stores, and I am very choosy about the specs on the bottle and how they are written. The words, "approved for" are very important.
There is a difference between approved for, and suitable for.
How do you know the bottle contains the real deal stuff and not some good fake packaging?
What is the purpose of the question? All anyone can do is their best, and in trying to do that I choose the best sources that are available to me for the products that we use. +
Well, you need to buy an oil analysis spectrometer. :-)
Seriously though, if you suspect the dealer is pulling a fast one (say, substituting "bulk" mineral oil instead of a required synthetic or dexos spec), will an oil analysis expose that?
I think it is every car owner's responsibility to be at least 'somewhat' informed as to their cars maintenance requirements. I have the same opinion about our health if we go to a medical doctor. I am not one to throw my hands into the air and say "here I am doc, fix me".. For one thing, they make mistakes. Some are better than others etc.
As for my 'lazy' comment, you didn't include the rest of the context in which I used it.. which was: "lazy car owner's who resist taking responsibility for maintaining their cars at more attentive intervals". IOW's, the desire for us to have extended oil change intervals, I believe has ramifications for the chemistry behind oil additives etc., and as has already been discussed, some of them work against each other so there are always prices to be paid (compromises) for attempted do-it-all-in-one products. It is quite possible that if we forfeited laziness in wanting to double or triple our so inconvenient trips to have the oil and filter changed, that the chemistry that allows these extended interval periods, has caused a compromise in some other crucial make up of the oil that makes one brand check all boxes for 70% of the mfrgs brands but leave the rest out in the cold. (Just sayin' as an example..I am not a chemist or lubricity engineer).
Comments
This is news?
How does resisting advising the customer of these facts help them?
How does resisting advising shops and technicians help them advise their customers correctly?
The other type is the bike rider, who either is thoughtful enough to consider what can happen to them if when they see the recaps on the road, what musta taken place first in order for it to get there..or, hopefully has had a fellow biker teach him/her to simply not hang around heavy trucks any longer than necessary when passing. And definitely don't frig follow one
I don't remember ever having a problem with any of them and we drove our cars hard.
A wheel balance? what's that?
I was driving his '72 Econoline on I-75, when the left front gave way. For a 16 year old driver, that was quite an experience. I can still see that tread flying up in front of the windshield. :surprise:
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how to proceed. I, like most people, thought the proper oil viscosity and a good quality oil was everything you needed to know.
I asked a good friend of mine, pretty good at working on cars, if he knew what kind of oil his Trans Am took. He stated the viscosity. But did not know anything about manufacturer specs. So, now he knows.
Have you noticed any pressure to try and make that confusing for you here?
Yeah. Shifty and Steve aren't know to be trouble makers in these parts of the forums. Bet they got stock in cheap oil and a franchise or two of Jiffy Lube. :mad:
Bet you hated it when they stopped using points and condensers too.
Pick one and slap a starburst on it and I'll grab the jug that's on sale this week.
Some oil companies like it when that's all the education and understanding that their customers have. But like points and condensers that's history too.
That's helping me, the customer.
That WAS how to help the customer in the past. The cars changed and are continuing to evolve. Their maintanence and care has to evolve too. You wanted extended drain intervals, and you got them. You wanted more power, and at the same time better fuel economy, and the government wants lower emissions and the auto manufacturers are figuring out ways try and make everyone happy. That means more exotic engine designs, and more sophisticated controls. It also requires better and more robust lubrication, while not losing the fuel economy aspect of the equation. So they have tighter bearing clearances, that means a thinner oil has to be used, because a thicker oil doesn't flow fast enough in all areas of the engine. Remember, thicker oil or cranking the oil pressure up might cover a crank bearing or cam journal in the head, but it won't cool a piston as well. The manufacturers need the oil to do both of these and more.
Greater levels of ZDDP will protect a camshaft better, but it will shorten catalyst and O2 sensor lifespans. An oil company can claim they will protect the engine should a warranty claim arise, but if they kill the emissions system in the process, then they didn't save the customer any money at all. The right product has to protect the emissions system and the engine as well.
That's helping me, the customer.
The final point on all of this is inside this forum, you aren't "The Consumer" and you really can't speak for them. Outside of the forum, everyone is a consumer and these changes affect all of us. I wrote a while back about asking Ron to take part in this. If this is all about consumers, then his article needs a complete overhaul. It's easy to tell people what they want to hear, that also makes articles like his popular. It takes a lot more courage to tell people what the facts really are, especially when they prefer to potentially be someone else's victim and then get to try and turn around and blame someone else for the problems they encounter.
Come to think of it, that last line of the last paragrapgh sums up a lot of the real problem. Consumer experts, need consumers to be victims so that they have something to do. Maybe that's why they don't really try to tell the consumers the hows, and whys about caring for today's cars.
I like to think many want to know a lot of this stuff but simply haven't been exposed to it often enough for it to really start to stick, especially when compared to all of the noise that is trying to keep their understanding exactly where it is right now.
Most want to open their owner's manual (presuming they still have it) and turn to page 84, and point to that and tell the repair shop that this is what they want---or they presume that the shop is on page 84 without them asking.
So for that to be the case, then they also need to see that I am winning this debate. If I had lost it, then there is no incentive for them to do anything but bargain hunt and get the cheapest dead dinosaur remains dumped into their car that they can find. By my winning this debate, now they and their shop has a chance to know that they need to open that book and read what the print really says, which often includes a manufacturer specification that is beyond the API and ILSAC ratings today.
I like the idea of better oil. My preference is for "the" standards body to set the specs and for the manufacturers to make sure their engines can perform using oil having those specs. Having to buy Honda oil or an oil whose specification and trademark are exclusive to General Motors doesn't appeal to me.
I was at the Ford training center in Pittsburgh back in the early 80's. On the way home, the parkway west I was moving along with traffic at a very comfortable distance from the car in front of me (about 65mph). I had such a good space inbetween me and the car in front of me that some guy moved into my lane between us and now I was instantly too close. Before I could even back down, he straddled a piece of concrete from the median. I re-acted as fast as I could, and the rest of the matter was a combination of luck, and the result of thousands of hours of riding in the strip mines, and the fact that I was on a small (250cc) very light bike. The first reaction was to try and go around it, but that proved impossible so I straightened up and caught it upright, and with my weight back. The front wheel bent some six inches, but the tire didn't rupture. The next few seconds was a fork shake that had the handle bars nearly striking the tank. All I could do was keep my hands firmly on the grips and let my arms move with the handlebars as I reduced speed. The cars that were behind me saw all of this and they had slowed as well giving me all the room that I needed, and I was eventually able to cross the other lane to the shoulder. That event really should have ended a lot differently when you think about it.
It really does boil down to that.
And FWIW, having to buy only an OEM branded oil doesn't appeal to me either, but is the only other solution so customers (and unfortunately many shops) are protected from their ignorance.
That's fine. This however is about the cars people already own and what they need to know in order to service their cars correctly today.
I like the idea of better oil
Does EVERYBODY?
My preference is for "the" standards body to set the specs and for the manufacturers to make sure their engines can perform using oil having those specs.
You can have a preference for any imaginary standard. We have to deal with reality.
Having to buy Honda oil or an oil whose specification and trademark are exclusive to General Motors doesn't appeal to me.
So then you prefer that someone not tell you truth, even though that is the case today?
"2. How does dexosTM1 differ from ILSAC GF-5 and API SN/Resource Conserving?
The dexosTM1 specification provides for greater control of deposits, more restrictive volatility requirements and introduces an aeration requirement. Interestingly it lacks the emissions system protection and E-85 compatibility requirements of the ILSAC and API specifications and only requires the fuel efficiency of the older ILSAC GF-4 and API SM/Energy Conserving specifications.
The more restrictive volatility requirement is likely to require greater use of synthetic base oils in dexosTM1 oils as compared to oils just meeting the API/ILSAC specifications.
Any Valvoline oil meeting the dexosTM1 specification will also meet the ILSAC GF-5 and API SN/Resource Conserving specifications.
"3. Can I use dexosTM1 in a pre-2011 MY GM vehicle or in other types of vehicles?
Oils meeting the dexosTM1 1 specification are backward compatible and can be used in earlier model year GM vehicles. Oils meeting only dexosTM1 may not meet the API or ILSAC standards and should not be used in other makes. In all likelihood, however; most oils meeting dexosTM1 will also carry ILSAC GF-5 and API SN/Resource Conserving credentials and so can be used with other makes."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Well, continuing to cater/defend? a system that is obviously not working, then your statement here becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy does it not?
I know the cater/defend comment is gonna make you rebel, but how else can a person interpret your take on things? Yes, you're an educator, an informer and you want to do the right thing for your customers. We (I) get that, but you were pretty quick to pull the imaginary standard vs reality card, so ya..it comes off a bit like defending a system that is clearly not working.
In many way's it isn't working essentially because there is no system across the board in place yet. The problem is there are people who want it to stay that way.
Well, continuing to cater/defend? a system that is obviously not working, then your statement here becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy does it not?
You can have a preference for any imaginary standard. We have to deal with reality.
You'll have to explain your view of what that say's to you a little better for me. We have to deal with how things are, feigning a tantrum because things aren't how we wish them to be isn't going to change anything. A one size fits all oil standard isn't a realistic option anymore and nothing is going to change that. So instead of leading the consumers down an imaginary path, they need a steady, accurate and consistent source of information from the people who claim to be experts, as well as from the people who really are. JMHO.
The more PhDs these folks get the more muddled the situation becomes - the old "the more you know, the less you know" truism.
(I bet you dollars to donuts there's a smart engine/lubrication engineer at Ford who thinks the GM engineers are on the wrong track).
Basically, I feel that if there are standards, the car makers should design around them. Not come up with an engine with such tight tolerances (or whatever is causing the problems like sludge) that it has to have some 1 of a kind "new" product to survive.
It almost sounds like a case of scientists existing in their lab vacuum, as opposed to understanding there is a real world that the customers have to live in.
As a car owner, I really should be able to walk into the auto parts store and grab a bottle that meets all applicable standards and be fine, with whatever the current SAE ratings are being backward compatible.
it just seems to be getting too darned complicated and risky, especially if professionals aren't able to keep it all straight! I am sure that GM, etc. will just say you should never do it yourself, and only go to the dealer, but even then I think Doc has said you might not get the exact, specific formula for you car.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I hope there is, and the reverse as well. That's how innovation happens.
So you want the oil companies to dictate the advance of the technology that is going into todays engines? I'll remind you about SAE16 "A", and "B" that should have come out more than five years ago, and isn't out yet. By the time it does come out, it will be already obsolete. Think about that for a moment.
it just seems to be getting too darned complicated and risky, especially if professionals aren't able to keep it all straight!
Heck if you think this part is tough, come spend a week in my shop and see what we really do day in and day out. The only thing difficult about this is overcoming the resistance to the change.
I am sure that GM, etc. will just say you should never do it yourself, and only go to the dealer, but even then I think Doc has said you might not get the exact, specific formula for you car.
Correct, hence the reason for increased consumer awareness, and everyone elses needs to get into a classroom ASAP.
Just has to be a better way than each company inventing their own proprietary stuff all the time. Isn't that why the standard grading was created for oil, etc. in the first place?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Then I have just the thing for you
You can't hang this on GM. Just about every manufacturer is dealing with their engines and emissions systems exceeding the current API and ILSAC minimal standards.
I guess all I can really do is try to reiterate my thoughts, and they are pertinent to your other quotes too..
In many way's it isn't working essentially because there is no system across the board in place yet. The problem is there are people who want it to stay that way.
And:
A one size fits all oil standard isn't a realistic option anymore and nothing is going to change that.
Since we agree the system isn't working, and that due to; speed with which technology progresses, driven by govt regs, tree-huggers, and lazy car owner's who resist taking responsibility for maintaining their cars at more attentive intervals, then probably any efforts to massage the present system into one that works on this moving scale, will just create more bureaucracy, confusion, loop-holes, delays, ifs ands or buts.
So is why:
A one size fits all oil standard isn't a realistic option anymore and nothing is going to change that.
I say use an OEM branded oil. So many loop-holes and excuses are avoided that way. Perhaps a levy or some form of legal control could ensure that a monopolized price fix thing doesn't get abused. How about having ONE price for ALL oil viscosity ranges among ALL brands of vehicles?
So put it on the mfgrs..
Those guys deal with things like this all the time. The gvt sets down rules, it's gotta be this green, get this amt of mpg minimum etc etc and the mfgrs build to conform to their spec. They make it work. If all mfrgs are having to play by the same universal rules ACROSS the board, (i.e. forced to build an engine that requires the same damn spec oil as there competitor does) I see it as a solution that would work.
It's this moving scale of progress, that makes these parameters that much harder to meet, so the solution isn't going to be that simple. The closer you bring the book-ends together, the fewer the grey areas of mis-interpretation.
Go to the bottom of that linked page and look at the ACEA specs quoted.
How does ACEA A1 meet GM's dexos spec? ACEA A1 is a specification that was obsoleted in 2004 when they went to the A1/B1 designation. ACEA A1 was a thin light oil good for year round use. dexos1 is a long life oil, so that the least it should have been an ACEA A5. The ACEA A5 was a thin light oil capable of year round use and long life. That also is obsolete and should be ACEA A5/B5.
There is a lot of information on that page, you need to study and see what it really is saying. The ACEA A1/B1-07 (2007 revision)was significantly different than the ACEA A1/B1-04 which greatly exceeded anything before it. This is 2013, do you know what the latest revision for ACEA is? That also means the ACEA A1 spec quoted is at least ten years obsolete.
The SynPower MST quoted for the European vehicles, it is approved for the specs as listed. You can go to those manufacturers sites (just like GM's dexos) and find it listed. Its almost funny that its been this way for years in Europe, that the manufacturers set the specs, and the oil companies meet them. But here in North America there is pressure for it to be the other way around.
BTW do me a favor. Go to your local parts store, and/or convenience store and get me a picture of a bottle of that SynPower MST 5W30.
I hoped it would get a chuckle.
>the manufacturers set the specs, and the oil companies meet them. But here in North America there is pressure for it to be the other way around.
That's what I'm seeing when I read the whole page from Valvoline. It seemed more tightly written than a press release in the middle of a hot political campaign with no honesty on either side?
I sounds llike the payment to GM for royalty or rights is the stickler.
It's interesting how when VW or BMW has an obscure (to us in the US) requirement, it's greeted as chic and forward looking by the devoted here. In fact, didn't BMW set gasoline additives on path with their requirements for injector cleaning a couple decades back.
But GM moves forward on engine oil properties and it's resisted by the oil companies--just as cardoc says.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
But GM moves forward on engine oil properties and it's resisted by the oil companies--just as cardoc says.
Then only points I need to add is that it isn't just the oil companies who are resisting, and it isn't only GM's that the owners need to be confirming the specifications on. (Ford, Chrysler, Honda, etc.)
I'm paying this man not for what he does but for what he KNOWS.
I tell people that I assume that I am invisible- and that if anyone can see me, that they will try and kill me. I always cover my brake whenever there is even the most infinitesimal opportunity for someone to pull out from a side street or turn left in front of me.
As I told my son(this applies to cars and bikes), if you continually assume that other drivers/riders are always going to do make the most moronic decision(s) that they can, you will seldom be surprised.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
It doesn't matter one bit to me whether Munich or Detroit specs an oil, I'll just seek it out and use it. Thirty or so years ago I'd wager that more than half of BMW drivers were hard-core gearheads. Today I'd put that number at 5% or less. At least BMW can be relatively sure that their cars use the correct oil for at least 50,000 miles, since they are paying for all maintenance up to that point.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Even if the average consumer is diligent about picking the correct one, I've read that counterfeit products are a problem.
and if the Honda/Acura dealer can't put the right fluids in, what chance is there that some local guy is going to worry about it?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
One place that was the cheapest would have a lot of problems. They would sometimes recap tires that the other two stores would reject.
We were 16 years old and broke and a 12.95 recap was better than walking!
It used to be so much fun to charge up a condensor between a spark pulg and the engine block. Then we would leave them on a workbench and wait to hear the scream!
When necessary, the dealer. Otherwise I source through the major parts stores, and I am very choosy about the specs on the bottle and how they are written. The words, "approved for" are very important.
There is a difference between approved for, and suitable for.
What is the purpose of the question? All anyone can do is their best, and in trying to do that I choose the best sources that are available to me for the products that we use. +
Seriously though, if you suspect the dealer is pulling a fast one (say, substituting "bulk" mineral oil instead of a required synthetic or dexos spec), will an oil analysis expose that?
Over my dead body.
My '50 GMC pickup truck, yeah sure.
You should ask that of the Blackstone people.
As for my 'lazy' comment, you didn't include the rest of the context in which I used it.. which was: "lazy car owner's who resist taking responsibility for maintaining their cars at more attentive intervals". IOW's, the desire for us to have extended oil change intervals, I believe has ramifications for the chemistry behind oil additives etc., and as has already been discussed, some of them work against each other so there are always prices to be paid (compromises) for attempted do-it-all-in-one products. It is quite possible that if we forfeited laziness in wanting to double or triple our so inconvenient trips to have the oil and filter changed, that the chemistry that allows these extended interval periods, has caused a compromise in some other crucial make up of the oil that makes one brand check all boxes for 70% of the mfrgs brands but leave the rest out in the cold. (Just sayin' as an example..I am not a chemist or lubricity engineer).
Over my dead body.
Look, doc! Progress!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey, my car always gets the *best* --it goes right to the Mayo Clinic--no discount services for my baby.
german parts, premium tires, BMW-spec oil, and quality aftermarket accessories.
What it doesn't get is WASHED.