This debate going on right now is one of my pet peeves. This all falls under the category of failing to be consistent with the routines that the techs are expected to follow. At one moment rigging something, and risking the appearance of having delivered shoddy workmanship is praised, and then the same effort is justifiably assailed at any opportunity by the next person who gets to try and pass judgment. Ultimately the contradictions send the wrong messages to the techs and consumers alike and it has to stop.
Right is right, and not right can't be right sometimes no matter how much some consumer might want it to be this time. Get it?
Techs and TSBs. Friend owns a repair shop, brother works for American Honda. He repaired mom's car (Acura) and just so happened that brother was at his shop on vacation. He complained to brother that Honda quality wasn't as it was before and he had to come up with a fix for mom's car cause dealer didn't have any under warranty. Long story short brother when returning to work inquired about that particular problem and Honda had not come up with a solution. So he ran the brother's solution and it got adopted into a TSB.
Friend got offered job working for Honda but refused saying he didn't want to relocate to Torrance.
Long story short brother when returning to work inquired about that particular problem and Honda had not come up with a solution. So he ran the brother's solution and it got adopted into a TSB.
Anecdotal stories are not real proof. Got a TSB # and a description of the issue, and the solution?
It takes quite a few reported repairs to even get a manufacturer to generate a PI. (Preliminary Information) notice. They don't do that for jury-rigging. Even PI's require techs to follow approved proceedures and then the engineers get involved and try and find out if a component isn't living up to its design specifications.
Now the question, what percentage of the early failures are actually because of the use of engine oil that doesn't actually meet GM's dexos specification? Meanwhile the TSB directs technicians to change the monitor on all of the cars.
Back around 2000 I bought a new Maytag Neptune front-loading washer & dryer.
It wasn't long before I noticed mildew forming along the rubber door seal and boot area. The solution seemed simple enough. Just leave the door open a few inches when not in use, and the moisture would evaporate, eliminating the mildew.
The problem with that idea was there's a light inside the washer drum that's always on when the door is open, and its controlled by a "compression" switch that breaks the electrical circuit when the door closes.
A couple of very simple solutions seemed apparent...
1- Put a switch on the control dash that would disable the light. 2- Put a time-out feature on the drum light that would turn it off after a few minutes. 3- Replace the door switch with a dual-action switch that would allow the switch plunger to be manually extended by pulling it out 1/4" with your fingers, and which would automatically return to normal operation the next time the door was closed.
So, in my attempt to do what I thought manufacturers wanted (get feedback from their customers on suggested ways to improve their product), I sent an email to Maytag customer service with my suggestions, along with a written release to use any of my suggestions without any compensation due me.
In a couple of days, I received a response full of legalese, instructing me how I should go about making suggestions through their formal, and very legal-oriented, "improvement" process.
I found a much easier way to deal with it. Since the drum light is a 7 watt nite-lite bulb, I replaced the one in the drum with a burned-out bulb. I no longer have a light in the drum, but I don't have a mildew problem, either. I have never missed not having the light.
Of course, the experience of my story tends to re-enforce Cardoc's views about how manufacturers institute changes in their products. I guess we live in such a litigious society today that companies simply have to internally engineer fixes to avoid intellectual property lawsuits.
Back when I was a teenager, I bet Maytag would have simply taken my suggestions. They may not have used them in their product, but they wouldn't have attempted to steer me towards the legal system, either.
Of course, the experience of my story tends to re-enforce Cardoc's views about how manufacturers institute changes in their products. I guess we live in such a litigious society today that companies simply have to internally engineer fixes to avoid intellectual property lawsuits.
There are times I hate playing the spoiler but there are so many myths out there when it comes to what goes on in the trade someone has to speak out. Now sure the romantic idea would hold that when I figure out a tough problem on someones car that I could do something with the information but the reality couldn't be any further from that. The '99 4Runner that had the loss of communication between the BCM and the rear door module would be a fine example of what I found and proved, and now is written into a training class that will be used to help technicians improve their diagnostic skills. Meanwhile Toyota has no interest in teaching techs how to really diagnose that system nor any other using the routines that I created.
It takes quite a few reported repairs to even get a manufacturer to generate a PI. (Preliminary Information) notice. They don't do that for jury-rigging.
You'll note that my post didn't say "jury-rigging". I said "rigging".
"rig [rig] Show IPA verb, rigged, rig·ging, noun
verb (used with object) 1. Chiefly Nautical . a. to put in proper order for working or use. "
I still think that repair advice and methods aren't limited to what the engineers decide and specify in the factory; lots of fixes come right from the field. And I think lots of those fixes are then incorporated into the "official" reference works of the manufacturer.
I still think that repair advice and methods aren't limited to what the engineers decide and specify in the factory; lots of fixes come right from the field
So we will have to agree to disagree? I've got 38 years as a tech, with the first sixteen of them as a dealer technician. I was even a member of GM's technician advisory council in '86, so I've "been there". I know most of the top techs around the country personally and they share the perception that the manufacturers not only don't listen to us, in some cases don't even care to ever hear from us.
I'm not sure where these TSBs eventually come from, but having read hundreds of them, I can say that sometimes they really do sound like something Hank came up with in the back room. There are TSBs that use foam rubber, tape, glue--I haven't seen one yet with string but I wouldn't be surprised.
Sure. It's good to know that at least GM was going through the motions of listening to techs even if they don't act on what techs are telling them.
Officially, manufacturer engineers may not take suggestions and comments from service techs on "fixes", but it seems obvious that when they do investigate a problem and see how that problem has been "resolved" at the local level, that they would take note of the "fix", and at times, incorporate that solution into the TSB, etc.
Sure. It's good to know that at least GM was going through the motions of listening to techs even if they don't act on what techs are telling them.
From where I stand, nobody listens to techs. I wrote a long time ago, there is no such thing as free, someone is paying for it somewhere. When a consumer gets something for free, the last person that they probably thought actually provided it was the service technician himself. They think the manufacturer, or the dealer dipped into their pocklets to make it right, but that often isn't the case.
When it comes to rigging something, heres what happened. 1985 Cutlass Cierra 2.5l came in on a tow truck with the fuel pump inoperative. Testing proved that the computer couldn't turn the relay on that controlled the fuel pump. The computer was replaced and there were no other problems found. A week later, this same car got towed back in, it had quit again. Once again testing revealed that the computer couldn't control the fuel pump relay. This time the tech opened the computer box and found one of the traces on the board was fried. That's too much current flow so the search was on for what caused that damage. On the back of the engine, there is a cover that would need to be removed to service the lifters. The engine harness runs across it and they used clips that pushed over the studs that are part of the bolts that hold that cover in place. The center stud was sticking into the harness loom and had abraided the Green /White wire that carried the 12v fuel pump relay command and was randomly grounding it.
The repair involved exposing the damaged harness, and sealing the insulation that was compromised and then repositioning the harness so that it wouldn't happen again. The the tech soldered a piece of insulated phone wire across the damaged trace on the computer restoring its output and re-installed it into the car.
Techs didn't get paid diagnostics at all back then. The original repair paid .7hrs. That's the time that it took to remove the glove box, drop the ECM, transfer the prom and install the new computer and then road test to make sure everything was working correctly.
The subsequent repair paid the tech nothing, it was considered a comeback. To make matters worse the customer complained that he didn't want a repaired computer, he wanted a new one. So the tech got to replace the computer for the third time for free.
Every repair event teaches lessons. The one of value there was that GM had an issue where the harness across the lifter cover could get abraided and about a year later a TSB did come out alerting techs to that likelyhood. No doubt there were many other events that techs found before the engineers deemed it worthy of a TSB. But what rewards did the tech get for not just rigging the computer but for having the training and experience to repair the circuit board?
Put yourself in that techs position, how would you react if you had hundreds of events where you repaired something only to find out they couldn't/wouldn't pay you for doing it because there wasn't a labor operation for doing it? They would pay to remove and replace the computer, but only if a computer was sold.
I can do the same story as above with GM's first electronic cruise control. The servo's had solenoids that failed and it would blow a transistor right off the circut board that controlled it. Since there were three of those transistors on the board, it was easy to start fixing them instead of replace them. Low and behold, with no control module being sold, the tech got paid to replace the servo only. Other techs who were replacing both parts got paid to do so and the dealership also made more money off of what they were doing.
Again, what did that experience teach the technician?
Officially, manufacturer engineers may not take suggestions and comments from service techs on "fixes", but it seems obvious that when they do investigate a problem and see how that problem has been "resolved" at the local level, that they would take note of the "fix", and at times, incorporate that solution into the TSB, etc.
The problem today with trying to fix something is that if it doesn't work, the tech just used up one of this three chances to prevent a buy-back and of course he's going to be assailed on his CSI feedback score. Combine that with the fact that he's not going to be paid unless there is an appropriate labor operation that can be flagged and it simply doesn't make any sense to even try. I can't tell you how many wiring issues I repaired that the only thing I got for finding and fixing them was a promise of some gravy work to make up the time.
I think that I shared this story here before, but its appropriate to add right now anyway. I learned to do alignments in '83. I'll never forget doing my first "J" body (Sunfire, Cavalier) and we would get an hour a side to adjust the camber on top of the alignment. To adjust the camber the car had to have the heads mounted and calibrated so that the measurements could be taken. Then the tech had to remove the heads and the front wheels, remove the strut to knuckle bolts and ream out the lower hole to allow for it to be adjustmented. Then the tech put everything back together, reinstalled and compensated the heads and made the camber adjustments and finished the alignment.
I did my first one and knew that there had to be a better way. I saw the duck-bill adapter for the port-o-power in the body shop. Sure enough it fit between the strut and the inner fender. With a 24mm 1/2" drive impact flex socket I could remove the bottom bolt completely, loosen the top bolt and make my camber adjustment, and tighten the top bolt. Then I would remove the port-o-power and check the adjustment, ream the bottom hole just enough to put the bolt back through, tighten it and complete the alignment. Doing it this way was so fast that I was done in under the normal alignment time. My thanks was to end up having the service manager give me another alignment and he stood there and watched me do it. No doubt he probably thought that I was lying about doing the adjustment to pad my hours. After that we no longer got paid additional time to adjust the camber on those cars, some thanks. :sick:
If that happened to you, what lesson would it have taught?
When the trade routinely treats it's people like these storys show (and its actually worse all under the banner of being competitive price wise to try get the consumers in the door) is it any wonder that it's hard to find great technicians? I've got several thousand more stories of both good and bad to share from before I went self employe'd. I owe it to the rest of the tehs to bring this stuff to light. There is no reward for being creative, only additional risk.
Well, you certainly "expanded" immensely on a general comment.
I wasn't making any attempt to dissect the process of creating TSBs from beginning to end.
All I said was that IF a manufacturer's engineer sees how a tech has resolved an issue, it sticks with him. He doesn't automatically flush his memory completely clean and then start to address the issue assigned to him. So, in that regard, techs can (and sometimes do) have input into TSB development, whether they get credit for it or not.
As to who should be getting credit, I'll leave that for others to ponder.
One of my friends, who has a 2006 Xterra, just had his stepfather put in a new receiver/CD player. The old one was okay for the most part, but wouldn't eject CDs anymore, so he had to get them out with tweezers! Probably a miracle that he didn't mess them up in the process!
Anyway, all seemed well with this new system. Until I noticed that, when he turned the car off, the parking lights, as well as the rear license plate lights, stay on! Oops!
Oh, for the simpler, gentler days of years gone by, where you only had to splice a few wires to put a new stereo in, and everything would work out just fine.
And, a grim reminder to me, that if I ever decide to go with an aftermarket system in a modern car, let a professional handle it! It's downright disturbing how intertwined everything is these days!
Even my '97 Subaru branded, dealer installed alarm/fob system started acting up in '05 or so. It's such old tech I was able to disable the alarm part by flipping a DIP switch with a paper clip.
I just told my friend to pull the negative cable on the battery, until he can get this issue figured out.
His stepfather had told him about this website where you can just type in the year and model of your vehicle, and it'll let you know what they have that fits it. He got a pretty nice Pioneer unit for something like $160.
No complaints about the unit itself. But, I guess it definitely pays to have someone who knows what he's doing install it! FWIW, a few years back, his stepfather put an amplifier in the trunk of his Grand Marquis. I asked him to let me see it, and when I saw it, I noticed it was right on top of the vertical gas tank! I told him he might want to have it checked out, to make sure none of the screws went through into the tank. Sure enough, they did. :surprise:
And, to think, I was almost tempted to check out this website, see what they had that would fit a '57 DeSoto Firedome, and have this dude install it. Guess I'll just stick to AM and the Phil Spector wall of sound. Conelrad stations and all. :P
I wonder if it is coincidence by brand, but Nissan had dash branding issues with their X Trails. As (bad luck/chance) would have it, the shape of the windshield (and maybe dash colour {surface mold design?}) was magnifying too much heat onto the top of the dash and literally cooking the CD player. The easy fix (after wty kept replacing the stereo unit) was to lay a newspaper on the dash above where the stereo was. End of the cooking cycle. I didn't ask Nissan for compensation for the inconvenience (with my personality, it wasn't a big deal to me...all in the interest of saving them the cost of continuing to wty units in future) of placing a newspaper there each time I parked, since I usually used a sunscreen anyway to keep the car cooler and protect the dash on those sunny hot days, once parked at home after my out-and-abouts.
If given the option to solve an issue like this allows me to not have to endure the complications that your stepfather did with some probable TIPM lifetime-$-marriage, by simply placing a heat shield as easy as a folded newspaper, I'll go that route every time..just no contest whatsoever.
I HATE types of new tech that is serviceable only by entire component replacement by monopolized and blatantly price-gouged so-called....solution$.. :mad: Aside from the crippling WASTE, all this crap contributes to our bulging landfills and improperly (or non- recyclable) garbage.
Something else to consider...(and I assure you I am wearing no tinfoil melon adornment and am well aware of the propensity for an internet poster to too easily wanna write-off my suspicions) is that ANY electronic component is just too easily manufactured these days in such a way that they can work off an internal time-clock (or cycle-counter..whatever applies) to conveniently shut you down just nicely outta wty. It would be interesting to see the stats of (as a random example) the number of TIPM's replaced on...let's say... some infamous Chrysler products for failed left headlight issues, that failed under wty vs outta wty.. Just sayin'..
Gimme old tech that a shade tree mechanic, armed with a soldering gun and a DMM, can address themselves anyday..no loner/rental/days off work/wa$ted gas and time, the bill... etc etc etc..but I digress.. that's me..
And if my irreplaceable dead Mother's handed down jewelry (hidden outta sight) doesn't get stolen by some low-life dongle user while I was parked for 20 minutes enroute to deliver to another loved-one recipient of that keepsake, then I don't mind using an old-fashioned key...imagine the concept..to get in and outta my car too..but again..that's me.
Do we enjoy perceived progress, or have we become $slave$ to it?
"I suggest that the next time you buy a Buick or any car, meet with the service manager first and get some history on the mechanics. I left Lexus because the dealership near me seemed to have lost all of the senior techs and the kids they hired were nice, but nearly as knowledgeable and seemed to always refer to some book."
I left Lexus because the dealership near me seemed to have lost all of the senior techs and the kids they hired were nice, but nearly as knowledgeable and seemed to always refer to some book."
So why did that dealer seem to lose all of their senior technicians?
As far as needing to look information up, that's an every job occurrence. Anyone not in the habit of checking service information will not know about potential TSB's or PI's, or Tech tips. (Oooo Tech Tips, we didn't even talk about where those come into play ) But to have someone write in such a way as to make the suggestion that it is undesirable for techs to have to check "the book" makes for just one more example of the kinds of contradictions that techs have to deal with all of the time.
So, how do I offer the use of my factory manual to my small local shop without insulting the mechanic? Or do I let sleeping dogs lie and let him search whatever he may have access to if needs info on a timing belt change?
As far as needing to look information up The more you know, the less you know.
When a consumer writes something like what that poster did, where he suggests that it is questionable for the techs to have to consult service information, and the next person in the door thinks they have to bring "the book" in the underlying message that the tech gets is pretty insulting. Picture if you will that "the tech" is female, and watch how uncomfortable the whole situation becomes.
The red wire at the radio is a 12v input from lighting control, the grey wire is an input that makes the radio dim its display under the command of the dimmer control.
The exterior lights are all controlled by a relay that is controlled by a "cpu". It must be getting commanded to turn the lights on, but a quick look at the schematics doesn't suggest what may have occurred. Keep in mind the original radio grounds through the dash by physical contact with its mounting.
I dropped by to see what my tech thought about doing the water pump and anything else and casually mentioned that I had a factory manual if he needed it. He sorta waved at the books on the wall and said he probably had it all covered.
When I asked about replacing the tensioner, he said he had already ordered the kit with that in it.
Then we chewed the fat about my working for a car site and I told him I knew just enough about cars to be dangerous.
I was hoping to get it back for our all day drive to Chicago next week but he's stacked up pretty good so I bet he won't get to it by the weekend. My wife says she wouldn't trust the van on a trip right off the bat, but I don't know why not. Should be pretty obvious right from the start if the timing is off, shouldn't it?
I was hoping to get it back for our all day drive to Chicago next week but he's stacked up pretty good so I bet he won't get to it by the weekend. My wife says she wouldn't trust the van on a trip right off the bat, but I don't know why not. Should be pretty obvious right from the start if the timing is off, shouldn't it?
The timing being off would be something that should be discovered before the engine even goes back together completely. It's all of the other little things that could show up where something isn't perfect that makes your wife correct. If you went in for heart surgery, would the doctors kick you out of the hospital the next day and allow you to run in foot race? As much as we all want everything that we do to be perfect, at some point everyone has to be realistic and accept nobody is perfect every time, and if you tempt the fates by taking a long road trip right after a significant service is done you are really asking for problems. The worst part of that is now you are too far away for the shop to handle the issue effectively, whether its truly a warranty concern or not. I always reccomend that the vehicle be looked at, and serviced two weeks to a month before taking the trip. That way there is plenty of time to do whatever work is needed, plus time to put some miles on to make sure everything went correctly.
You just made my wife happy (I hate it when I'm wrong. :shades: ).
If I talk to my guy before I leave town, I'll ask him to drive it around himself for a week and see what else should be addressed. A road trip to LA this summer is a possibility.
I changed the oil in the Infiniti before a week-long, 1500 mile trip last month. i didn't have a chance to drive it, but did start it up and let it run for a few minutes to verify there were no gross leaks. But my head was full of all of the things i could have done wrong- Double gasket Forgot to tighten oil filter Forgot to tighten the drain plug Etc
Thanks for the info, Cardoc! Unfortunately though, before I had a chance to look at it for my friend, he took it to the Nissan dealer, and had it fixed. It was due for a bunch of maintenance stuff anyway, so this wasn't a special trip.
They ended up charging him $236 to diagnose and fix the stereo. Not sure exactly what they found, but in the most rudimentary of layman's terms, "it was wired wrong"!
Anyway, his mother is going to write him a check to cover the $236. She said that he shouldn't have to pay that, since his stepfather screwed it up!
Keep in mind the original radio grounds through the dash by physical contact with its mounting.
The rear speakers in my old 1979 Newport were like that, which I discovered when I tried to replace them and found that each one only had one wire running to it. It's been awhile, and I'm not the most proficient when it comes to electrical stuff, but I think I just ran some wires from ground on the speaker, to the metal bracing under the package shelf.
Techs that use checklists end up being "too slow", and unproductive in the opinion of most shop owners/managers.
While I don't disagree, it's another divergence between dealership practices and manufacturer practices.
I say this because just about every new car I've purchased over the last 30 years came with a manufacturer's "pre-delivery checklist" of items supposedly examined by the delivering dealership.... Although I suspect the only things actually checked were the boxes on the checklist.
lol, you see that a lot with CPO cars. There's a 150 point checklist and the new owner has a tire problem, only to find out that the tires don't even match.
The other typical complaint is a bouncy ride that the demo didn't exhibit. Then the new owner checks and finds out that the tires were never aired down after shipping. The new car checklist was supposed to cover that too.
There's a 150 point checklist and the new owner has a tire problem, only to find out that the tires don't even match
Do you think that you're getting a seasoned master technician doing that used car check or are you getting someone who is still learning how to be a technician?
Do you think that you're getting a seasoned master technician doing that used car check or are you getting someone who is still learning how to be a technician?
Personally, I think the guy doing the checklist is the same guy that does the detailing and cleaning of the car.
If my previous experiences have been performed by seasoned master techs, heaven help us all if we need any serious repairs done...
Years ago, I bought a new Ford Thunderbird. I specifically told the dealer when I picked it up on Friday that I would immediately be driving it 500 miles on the freeway to my brother's wedding in Fargo, ND. He assured me they would check it out and have it ready for the trip. Well, the car wandered and pulled on the highway the whole trip. I checked the tire pressure when I got back and the pressures varied from about 18-25 psi. And I had been driving on North Dakota and Minnesota freeways at 80-90mph.
2012 Mustang Premium, 2013 Lincoln MKX Elite, 2007 Mitsubishi Outlander.
Comments
This debate going on right now is one of my pet peeves. This all falls under the category of failing to be consistent with the routines that the techs are expected to follow. At one moment rigging something, and risking the appearance of having delivered shoddy workmanship is praised, and then the same effort is justifiably assailed at any opportunity by the next person who gets to try and pass judgment. Ultimately the contradictions send the wrong messages to the techs and consumers alike and it has to stop.
Right is right, and not right can't be right sometimes no matter how much some consumer might want it to be this time. Get it?
Friend got offered job working for Honda but refused saying he didn't want to relocate to Torrance.
Anecdotal stories are not real proof. Got a TSB # and a description of the issue, and the solution?
It takes quite a few reported repairs to even get a manufacturer to generate a PI. (Preliminary Information) notice. They don't do that for jury-rigging. Even PI's require techs to follow approved proceedures and then the engineers get involved and try and find out if a component isn't living up to its design specifications.
Here is an example of how a PI is used, this is a condition that wasn't frequent enough to justify a TSB. PIC3045B
http://www.2carpros.com/questions/chevrolet-impala-2002-chevy-impala-cooling-fan- s--2
Now the question, what percentage of the early failures are actually because of the use of engine oil that doesn't actually meet GM's dexos specification? Meanwhile the TSB directs technicians to change the monitor on all of the cars.
It wasn't long before I noticed mildew forming along the rubber door seal and boot area. The solution seemed simple enough. Just leave the door open a few inches when not in use, and the moisture would evaporate, eliminating the mildew.
The problem with that idea was there's a light inside the washer drum that's always on when the door is open, and its controlled by a "compression" switch that breaks the electrical circuit when the door closes.
A couple of very simple solutions seemed apparent...
1- Put a switch on the control dash that would disable the light.
2- Put a time-out feature on the drum light that would turn it off after a few minutes.
3- Replace the door switch with a dual-action switch that would allow the switch plunger to be manually extended by pulling it out 1/4" with your fingers, and which would automatically return to normal operation the next time the door was closed.
So, in my attempt to do what I thought manufacturers wanted (get feedback from their customers on suggested ways to improve their product), I sent an email to Maytag customer service with my suggestions, along with a written release to use any of my suggestions without any compensation due me.
In a couple of days, I received a response full of legalese, instructing me how I should go about making suggestions through their formal, and very legal-oriented, "improvement" process.
I found a much easier way to deal with it. Since the drum light is a 7 watt nite-lite bulb, I replaced the one in the drum with a burned-out bulb. I no longer have a light in the drum, but I don't have a mildew problem, either. I have never missed not having the light.
Of course, the experience of my story tends to re-enforce Cardoc's views about how manufacturers institute changes in their products. I guess we live in such a litigious society today that companies simply have to internally engineer fixes to avoid intellectual property lawsuits.
Back when I was a teenager, I bet Maytag would have simply taken my suggestions. They may not have used them in their product, but they wouldn't have attempted to steer me towards the legal system, either.
A game of musical chairs in which there are no chairs...
There are times I hate playing the spoiler but there are so many myths out there when it comes to what goes on in the trade someone has to speak out. Now sure the romantic idea would hold that when I figure out a tough problem on someones car that I could do something with the information but the reality couldn't be any further from that. The '99 4Runner that had the loss of communication between the BCM and the rear door module would be a fine example of what I found and proved, and now is written into a training class that will be used to help technicians improve their diagnostic skills. Meanwhile Toyota has no interest in teaching techs how to really diagnose that system nor any other using the routines that I created.
You'll note that my post didn't say "jury-rigging". I said "rigging".
"rig
[rig] Show IPA verb, rigged, rig·ging, noun
verb (used with object)
1.
Chiefly Nautical .
a. to put in proper order for working or use. "
dictionary.reference.com
(I'll bite my tongue about GM's Dexos specs and their little oil change announcement today. :shades: )
4. to manipulate fraudulently: to rig prices.
So we will have to agree to disagree? I've got 38 years as a tech, with the first sixteen of them as a dealer technician. I was even a member of GM's technician advisory council in '86, so I've "been there". I know most of the top techs around the country personally and they share the perception that the manufacturers not only don't listen to us, in some cases don't even care to ever hear from us.
Officially, manufacturer engineers may not take suggestions and comments from service techs on "fixes", but it seems obvious that when they do investigate a problem and see how that problem has been "resolved" at the local level, that they would take note of the "fix", and at times, incorporate that solution into the TSB, etc.
From where I stand, nobody listens to techs. I wrote a long time ago, there is no such thing as free, someone is paying for it somewhere. When a consumer gets something for free, the last person that they probably thought actually provided it was the service technician himself. They think the manufacturer, or the dealer dipped into their pocklets to make it right, but that often isn't the case.
When it comes to rigging something, heres what happened. 1985 Cutlass Cierra 2.5l came in on a tow truck with the fuel pump inoperative. Testing proved that the computer couldn't turn the relay on that controlled the fuel pump. The computer was replaced and there were no other problems found. A week later, this same car got towed back in, it had quit again. Once again testing revealed that the computer couldn't control the fuel pump relay. This time the tech opened the computer box and found one of the traces on the board was fried. That's too much current flow so the search was on for what caused that damage. On the back of the engine, there is a cover that would need to be removed to service the lifters. The engine harness runs across it and they used clips that pushed over the studs that are part of the bolts that hold that cover in place. The center stud was sticking into the harness loom and had abraided the Green /White wire that carried the 12v fuel pump relay command and was randomly grounding it.
The repair involved exposing the damaged harness, and sealing the insulation that was compromised and then repositioning the harness so that it wouldn't happen again. The the tech soldered a piece of insulated phone wire across the damaged trace on the computer restoring its output and re-installed it into the car.
Techs didn't get paid diagnostics at all back then. The original repair paid .7hrs. That's the time that it took to remove the glove box, drop the ECM, transfer the prom and install the new computer and then road test to make sure everything was working correctly.
The subsequent repair paid the tech nothing, it was considered a comeback. To make matters worse the customer complained that he didn't want a repaired computer, he wanted a new one. So the tech got to replace the computer for the third time for free.
Every repair event teaches lessons. The one of value there was that GM had an issue where the harness across the lifter cover could get abraided and about a year later a TSB did come out alerting techs to that likelyhood. No doubt there were many other events that techs found before the engineers deemed it worthy of a TSB. But what rewards did the tech get for not just rigging the computer but for having the training and experience to repair the circuit board?
Put yourself in that techs position, how would you react if you had hundreds of events where you repaired something only to find out they couldn't/wouldn't pay you for doing it because there wasn't a labor operation for doing it? They would pay to remove and replace the computer, but only if a computer was sold.
I can do the same story as above with GM's first electronic cruise control. The servo's had solenoids that failed and it would blow a transistor right off the circut board that controlled it. Since there were three of those transistors on the board, it was easy to start fixing them instead of replace them. Low and behold, with no control module being sold, the tech got paid to replace the servo only. Other techs who were replacing both parts got paid to do so and the dealership also made more money off of what they were doing.
Again, what did that experience teach the technician?
Officially, manufacturer engineers may not take suggestions and comments from service techs on "fixes", but it seems obvious that when they do investigate a problem and see how that problem has been "resolved" at the local level, that they would take note of the "fix", and at times, incorporate that solution into the TSB, etc.
The problem today with trying to fix something is that if it doesn't work, the tech just used up one of this three chances to prevent a buy-back and of course he's going to be assailed on his CSI feedback score. Combine that with the fact that he's not going to be paid unless there is an appropriate labor operation that can be flagged and it simply doesn't make any sense to even try. I can't tell you how many wiring issues I repaired that the only thing I got for finding and fixing them was a promise of some gravy work to make up the time.
I think that I shared this story here before, but its appropriate to add right now anyway. I learned to do alignments in '83. I'll never forget doing my first "J" body (Sunfire, Cavalier) and we would get an hour a side to adjust the camber on top of the alignment. To adjust the camber the car had to have the heads mounted and calibrated so that the measurements could be taken. Then the tech had to remove the heads and the front wheels, remove the strut to knuckle bolts and ream out the lower hole to allow for it to be adjustmented. Then the tech put everything back together, reinstalled and compensated the heads and made the camber adjustments and finished the alignment.
I did my first one and knew that there had to be a better way. I saw the duck-bill adapter for the port-o-power in the body shop. Sure enough it fit between the strut and the inner fender. With a 24mm 1/2" drive impact flex socket I could remove the bottom bolt completely, loosen the top bolt and make my camber adjustment, and tighten the top bolt. Then I would remove the port-o-power and check the adjustment, ream the bottom hole just enough to put the bolt back through, tighten it and complete the alignment. Doing it this way was so fast that I was done in under the normal alignment time. My thanks was to end up having the service manager give me another alignment and he stood there and watched me do it. No doubt he probably thought that I was lying about doing the adjustment to pad my hours. After that we no longer got paid additional time to adjust the camber on those cars, some thanks. :sick:
If that happened to you, what lesson would it have taught?
When the trade routinely treats it's people like these storys show (and its actually worse all under the banner of being competitive price wise to try get the consumers in the door) is it any wonder that it's hard to find great technicians? I've got several thousand more stories of both good and bad to share from before I went self employe'd. I owe it to the rest of the tehs to bring this stuff to light. There is no reward for being creative, only additional risk.
Well, you certainly "expanded" immensely on a general comment.
I wasn't making any attempt to dissect the process of creating TSBs from beginning to end.
All I said was that IF a manufacturer's engineer sees how a tech has resolved an issue, it sticks with him. He doesn't automatically flush his memory completely clean and then start to address the issue assigned to him. So, in that regard, techs can (and sometimes do) have input into TSB development, whether they get credit for it or not.
As to who should be getting credit, I'll leave that for others to ponder.
Anyway, all seemed well with this new system. Until I noticed that, when he turned the car off, the parking lights, as well as the rear license plate lights, stay on! Oops!
Oh, for the simpler, gentler days of years gone by, where you only had to splice a few wires to put a new stereo in, and everything would work out just fine.
And, a grim reminder to me, that if I ever decide to go with an aftermarket system in a modern car, let a professional handle it! It's downright disturbing how intertwined everything is these days!
His stepfather had told him about this website where you can just type in the year and model of your vehicle, and it'll let you know what they have that fits it. He got a pretty nice Pioneer unit for something like $160.
No complaints about the unit itself. But, I guess it definitely pays to have someone who knows what he's doing install it! FWIW, a few years back, his stepfather put an amplifier in the trunk of his Grand Marquis. I asked him to let me see it, and when I saw it, I noticed it was right on top of the vertical gas tank! I told him he might want to have it checked out, to make sure none of the screws went through into the tank. Sure enough, they did. :surprise:
And, to think, I was almost tempted to check out this website, see what they had that would fit a '57 DeSoto Firedome, and have this dude install it. Guess I'll just stick to AM and the Phil Spector wall of sound. Conelrad stations and all. :P
The one thing I really like about them is that they offer adapter/plug-in pigtails,so no wire cutting or splicing is necessary.
If given the option to solve an issue like this allows me to not have to endure the complications that your stepfather did with some probable TIPM lifetime-$-marriage, by simply placing a heat shield as easy as a folded newspaper, I'll go that route every time..just no contest whatsoever.
I HATE types of new tech that is serviceable only by entire component replacement by monopolized and blatantly price-gouged so-called....solution$.. :mad:
Aside from the crippling WASTE, all this crap contributes to our bulging landfills and improperly (or non- recyclable) garbage.
Something else to consider...(and I assure you I am wearing no tinfoil melon adornment and am well aware of the propensity for an internet poster to too easily wanna write-off my suspicions) is that ANY electronic component is just too easily manufactured these days in such a way that they can work off an internal time-clock (or cycle-counter..whatever applies) to conveniently shut you down just nicely outta wty.
It would be interesting to see the stats of (as a random example) the number of TIPM's replaced on...let's say... some infamous Chrysler products for failed left headlight issues, that failed under wty vs outta wty..
Just sayin'..
Gimme old tech that a shade tree mechanic, armed with a soldering gun and a DMM, can address themselves anyday..no loner/rental/days off work/wa$ted gas and time, the bill... etc etc etc..but I digress.. that's me..
And if my irreplaceable dead Mother's handed down jewelry (hidden outta sight) doesn't get stolen by some low-life dongle user while I was parked for 20 minutes enroute to deliver to another loved-one recipient of that keepsake, then I don't mind using an old-fashioned key...imagine the concept..to get in and outta my car too..but again..that's me.
Do we enjoy perceived progress, or have we become $slave$ to it?
father4girls, "Buick Enclave Power Steering Noise" #172, 7 Apr 2013 6:50 pm
So why did that dealer seem to lose all of their senior technicians?
As far as needing to look information up, that's an every job occurrence. Anyone not in the habit of checking service information will not know about potential TSB's or PI's, or Tech tips. (Oooo Tech Tips, we didn't even talk about where those come into play
The more you know, the less you know.
So, how do I offer the use of my factory manual to my small local shop without insulting the mechanic? Or do I let sleeping dogs lie and let him search whatever he may have access to if needs info on a timing belt change?
Maybe its time to realize that you can't.
Or do I let sleeping dogs lie and let him search whatever he may have access to if needs info on a timing belt change
What's wrong with the information
Here?
Here?
Or especially here?
As far as needing to look information up
The more you know, the less you know.
When a consumer writes something like what that poster did, where he suggests that it is questionable for the techs to have to consult service information, and the next person in the door thinks they have to bring "the book" in the underlying message that the tech gets is pretty insulting. Picture if you will that "the tech" is female, and watch how uncomfortable the whole situation becomes.
The exterior lights are all controlled by a relay that is controlled by a "cpu". It must be getting commanded to turn the lights on, but a quick look at the schematics doesn't suggest what may have occurred. Keep in mind the original radio grounds through the dash by physical contact with its mounting.
When I asked about replacing the tensioner, he said he had already ordered the kit with that in it.
Then we chewed the fat about my working for a car site and I told him I knew just enough about cars to be dangerous.
He said he did too, lol. Cool guy.
FYI. The "kits" also come with all of the instructions/information specific to the the vehicles that the kit services.
I was hoping to get it back for our all day drive to Chicago next week but he's stacked up pretty good so I bet he won't get to it by the weekend. My wife says she wouldn't trust the van on a trip right off the bat, but I don't know why not. Should be pretty obvious right from the start if the timing is off, shouldn't it?
The timing being off would be something that should be discovered before the engine even goes back together completely. It's all of the other little things that could show up where something isn't perfect that makes your wife correct. If you went in for heart surgery, would the doctors kick you out of the hospital the next day and allow you to run in foot race? As much as we all want everything that we do to be perfect, at some point everyone has to be realistic and accept nobody is perfect every time, and if you tempt the fates by taking a long road trip right after a significant service is done you are really asking for problems. The worst part of that is now you are too far away for the shop to handle the issue effectively, whether its truly a warranty concern or not. I always reccomend that the vehicle be looked at, and serviced two weeks to a month before taking the trip. That way there is plenty of time to do whatever work is needed, plus time to put some miles on to make sure everything went correctly.
If I talk to my guy before I leave town, I'll ask him to drive it around himself for a week and see what else should be addressed. A road trip to LA this summer is a possibility.
Probably not, but your insurance company might, if they thought they could get away with it...
Double gasket
Forgot to tighten oil filter
Forgot to tighten the drain plug
Etc
They ended up charging him $236 to diagnose and fix the stereo. Not sure exactly what they found, but in the most rudimentary of layman's terms, "it was wired wrong"!
Anyway, his mother is going to write him a check to cover the $236. She said that he shouldn't have to pay that, since his stepfather screwed it up!
Keep in mind the original radio grounds through the dash by physical contact with its mounting.
The rear speakers in my old 1979 Newport were like that, which I discovered when I tried to replace them and found that each one only had one wire running to it. It's been awhile, and I'm not the most proficient when it comes to electrical stuff, but I think I just ran some wires from ground on the speaker, to the metal bracing under the package shelf.
A&P mechanics use checklists for work; bet few auto mechanics do (or few other repair techs in various industries).
Techs that use checklists end up being "too slow", and unproductive in the opinion of most shop owners/managers.
Techs that use checklists end up being "too slow", and unproductive in the opinion of most shop owners/managers.
While I don't disagree, it's another divergence between dealership practices and manufacturer practices.
I say this because just about every new car I've purchased over the last 30 years came with a manufacturer's "pre-delivery checklist" of items supposedly examined by the delivering dealership.... Although I suspect the only things actually checked were the boxes on the checklist.
The other typical complaint is a bouncy ride that the demo didn't exhibit. Then the new owner checks and finds out that the tires were never aired down after shipping. The new car checklist was supposed to cover that too.
Do you think that you're getting a seasoned master technician doing that used car check or are you getting someone who is still learning how to be a technician?
Personally, I think the guy doing the checklist is the same guy that does the detailing and cleaning of the car.
If my previous experiences have been performed by seasoned master techs, heaven help us all if we need any serious repairs done...