Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

16465676970260

Comments

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 4,291
    edited March 2013
    I do believe that if Honda's Manual Tran oil is some form of a 10w30 or similarly light viscosity, then it must be one impressively capable 10w30

    You see reports of testing for products such as Amsoils use of the four ball test. That is a test for ball or roller bearings and has it's place when evaluating high pressure lubricants, but when used to suggest a products ability to protect engine components you will see considerable debate.

    We could go into why CVT's have very specific lubricants too and what you discover is how there is much more to it than just viscosity.

    then it must be one impressively capable 10w30..and probably what makes it good for the tranny would not stand up well in a crankcase

    Engine oil has to protect the engine, guard against corrosion, provide cooling, protect the emissions system, etc. etc. Manual transmissions don't have anywhere near the same requirements, while that have other specific ones that engines do not have. While one product can do both (for a while) the reccomendation that the engine oil should be changed back out ASAP should be sufficient to inducate that there is a difference.

    I stock Honda's manual transmission fluid as well as the VT+4 (sp?) differential lube. There are so many products on the shelf these days, that we look each one up and don't take the chance with using any alternatives.

    If you walk in with your oil and you are driving a GM that requires dexos1. The only thing I need to know is provided by Canadian Tire.
    Right here It is not approved for use in vehicles requiring dexos1.

    I say this because of your earlier extensive posts about there being so much more to the story than just acknowledging an API and GF ratings on the container

    As long as the vehicle you are wishing to have serviced doesn't require the HT-06 specification, then API SN, ILSAC GF5 is an approved choice.

    I get the feeling that if I showed up there, you'd feel better about using one of the oils you stock rather than this one

    We put in a lot of effort to make sure that we source the correct products, on each and every car. In many cases it means we have a lower GP for providing the same service than someone who chooses to use whatever they got on sale this week.

    (even if I offered to pay you for your oil also to help retain those necessary margins, but still putting mine in the engine)

    Do you realize how uncomfortable the entire transaction would have just become for us? If we use the wrong product, even if you provided it, we are liable should there be consequences. But lets say it goes to court and we actually win (doubtful) we still lost more just trying to defend ourselves than the entire job rendered to us in the first place. We actually have no choice but to decline servicing your car.

    even though this oil might be a superior oil on all levels?

    The most important word in that partial sentence is the word "might", because in reality "it might not".

    Besides smelling my old oil, I'm going to ask a couple dealers in the shop and see if they know whether it is gear lube or not

    Now is when it really gets fun. Why should they know? It's been such a mess getting people to see through questionable advertising methods that only a small percentage of techs and shops are truly up to date with this. Anyone reading Ron's article here in Edmunds get's to see enough contradicting information that it fails to clearly inform the readers as to what they really need to know. Do you really think that the conflicting information gets sufficiently challenged in every setting?

    The right answer will be that you need to use the O.E. approved product. The specifications are published to allow other companies to compete for the business. Always look for the O.E. specifications to be listed on the product for your vehicle.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 25,358
    these are backward compatible, right? Meaning if I have a 6 YO car that at the time specified SAE J (or higher?), and today they are up to N or P, the newer specs cover the old ones too?

    I assume they have to since the older ones no longer exist!

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's) and 2015 Jetta Sport (daughter's)

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Posts: 4,291
    edited March 2013
    these are backward compatible, right?

    Not in every case. If you go back far enough you will find engines that required much higher levels of boundary lubrication than today's oils can provide. Likewise, You can still find appropriate products to service those engines on the market today. The one Royal Purple product comes to mind that explicitly states not for use in any vehicle after 2004.

    Meaning if I have a 6 YOU car that at the time specified SAE J (or higher?), and today they are up to N or P, the newer specs cover the old ones too?

    For the most part, yes.

    When in doubt, consult a reliable source

    From one of the links on that page

    I assume they have to since the older ones no longer exist!

    But they do exist! You can still find API SA, SB, etc on some store shelves even though they have been obsolete for decades.
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 10,281
    I wish every family could afford to go that route. Our roads would be safer.

    We were very fortunate to be able to send him to the two day school. That said, Street Survival only costs $75.

    As an aside, I know a few kids in the local Mazda Club who who have poured thousands of dollars into their cars- but when I invited them to the local BMW club's two day track event they almost all begged off because "$400 is too much money" No one wants to spend money on the most important part of the car- the nut behind the wheel...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport / 2014 M235i / 1999 Wrangler / 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2016 i3 REX/2009 Cooper Clubman Son's: 2009 328i

  • jipsterjipster Louisville, KentuckyPosts: 5,441
    edited March 2013
    These chains specialize in one service.So they should do better than a shop or dealership that does everything. Brakes are easy. Brakeway does a 4 wheel brake job for $129. That includes ceramic brake pads and turning rotors. That job is $500 at dealership. My Buick dealership wanted $210 to install a battery. Haha. No way.
    Do these simple things yourself, or take to chain. For people on a budget or crappy car...is the best way to go.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,595
    well the best I can say about that is that going there is better than not having any brakes at all.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

  • steverstever Posts: 52,683
    edited March 2013
    Depends on the franchise owner too. I knew a good guy who ran a Midas and his shop did good work. But I think he retired and sold out (he started up in '78), so who knows now.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    well the best I can say about that is that going there is better than not having any brakes at all.

    I agree. One reason these "shops" charge less is that they pay less, and accordingly, have less experienced service personnel. When a service tech's toolbox consists primarily of a screwdriver, ball-peen hammer, pair of pliers and a pair of vice-grips, I'm skeptical of his/her ability.

    While there are certainly well trained/tooled shops in this segment, I've personally seen far too many stripped-out oil change plugs and rounded bolt-heads due to the wrong tool being used by an incapable tech.

    If that's all one can afford, it's certainly better than nothing, I guess...
  • jipsterjipster Louisville, KentuckyPosts: 5,441
    You say that based on what? Don't be a hater unless you can back it up. :mad:

  • jipsterjipster Louisville, KentuckyPosts: 5,441
    edited March 2013
    One reason these "shops" charge less is that they pay less, and accordingly, have less experienced service personnel.

    The reason they charge much less is overhead. It's much lower than indepenpent shops and dealerships. Look at all the tens of thousands cardoc has to spend on diagnostics, tools and software.

    A tire or brake guy can build a simple cylinder block building,or lease out a building, buy tools and equipment specific to the product he is offering. He's in business at a fraction of the cost.

    As for the service techs not being paid well, this is brake work, oil changes and tires. They aren't going to overhaul an engine. :P
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    As for the service techs not being paid well, this is brake work, oil changes and tires. They aren't going to overhaul an engine.

    So based on a specialized skill set what should the starting pay be? In the $8-$12 range? Would that be a little more or less than someone starting at McD's?
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    edited March 2013
    The reason they charge much less is overhead. It's much lower than indepenpent shops and dealerships. Look at all the tens of thousands cardoc has to spend on diagnostics, tools and software.


    Well, if you're simply talking about brake caliper/pad/shoe repair/replacement, that's completely true. Then again, they aren't even remotely qualified to address brake ABS control systems or anything related to the braking system once you move beyond the wheel itself, even then, there are some sophisticated brake components at the wheel level these shops aren't qualified to address (at least, I wouldn't allow them to touch my vehicle beyond the most basic repair).


    A tire or brake guy can build a simple cylinder block building,or lease out a building, buy tools and equipment specific to the product he is offering. He's in business at a fraction of the cost.


    Again, that's a true statement. He can probably stop by Harbor Freight on his way into the shop the very first day of business and purchase the hammer, screwdriver, channel-lock pliers and vice-grips he'll need to equip his tool box.

    As for the service techs not being paid well, this is brake work, oil changes and tires. They aren't going to overhaul an engine.

    Once again.... Correct. And, as the driver is watching the CEL and Oil lights illuminate on his dashboard 15 minutes after he departs the quickie lube and brake shop, because the "technician" neglected to tighten the drain plug, he can rest in the knowledge that the few $'s he save at the quickie lube were well spent. (I know of what I speak here. My daughter had to pick up a room-mate on her way back to college from Christmas vacation 2 years back because that very thing happened. Trying to do the right thing, she stopped by a quickie lube on her way back to college for a quick oil change. She ended up being stranded on I-40 about thirty minutes outside of Durham, NC on a Sunday night until my daughter got there. The car was towed to the closest dealership, where they found the drain plug missing, and the engine ruined.)

    I'm not painting all these shops with a broad brush, but, unless one knows the quality and reliability of the shop's work, its "buyer beware".
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,595
    edited March 2013
    Based on junk like this put on by incompetent people:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxkNZj0vRvg

    HOWEVER (disclaimer) I do agree that, to some extent, the quality of the LABOR varies depending on the franchisee, but lets' face it, cheap parts are cheap parts and even Doc could not make a good brake job out of that stuff.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    edited March 2013
    The last 30-40 seconds of the video says it all.

    And, we all know the quickie brake shop uses nothing but superior parts. That's how they can sell their services in such an inexpensive manner....LOL!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,595
    Another problem with the chain stores is that, again, under certain types of owners/managers, there is some very aggressive up-sell going on.

    So what you have is the unfortunate situation of being sold unnecessaryAND cheap parts. It's a double-whammy.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,319
    Some of the talk from the guy in the video sounds like double talk criticizing the competition and pretending to use something different in his shop. I'm especially interested in his story about the static causing the pad to stick. How do two metallic surfaces generate static electricity?

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • steverstever Posts: 52,683
    You guys talk like none of the independent shops exhibit the very same behavior.

    At least if Jiffy Lube messes up, you can sue corporate and the franchisee and chances are better that the judge isn't related to anyone at corporate. Some of the indy shops may not have insurance and their tools of the trade may be protected from judgment.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    Some of the talk from the guy in the video sounds like double talk criticizing the competition and pretending to use something different in his shop. I'm especially interested in his story about the static causing the pad to stick. How do two metallic surfaces generate static electricity?

    Wasn't he referring to brake dust binding to the wheel surfaces?

    Remember, metallic construction isn't necessarily the same as 100% metal construction. Different materials display different electrostatic characteristics, but it'll take someone better versed in physics to get into the details of how and why.

    Electrostatic "binding" is the basis of how power coated paint works, isn't it? Basically, that's what's happening as brake dusts binds to wheel surfaces.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,595
    Didn't sound like double-talk to me.

    cheap parts are cheap parts...there's little left to opinion here...either the $10 brake pads are just as good as the $150 brake pad or they aren't. Y'all can put whatever you want on YOUR car, I'm okay with that. :P

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    At least if Jiffy Lube messes up, you can sue corporate and the franchisee and chances are better that the judge isn't related to anyone at corporate. Some of the indy shops may not have insurance and their tools of the trade may be protected from judgment.

    From what I've seen over the years, only a small % of shop "screw-ups" ever make it into a court. Unless its in the high $$$ amount, most folks simply try to negotiate their best deal with the shop, and hope for some amount of satisfaction.

    In the case of my daughter's classmate, her car was an older model, and she was in medical school, so she didn't have the time to actively pursue legal action. Her folks helped her buy another "very used" car to get her around, as she was already neck-deep in student loans.

    I'd bet a very small % of claims ever actually go to court...
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    Y'all can put whatever you want on YOUR car, I'm okay with that.

    Please just don't tailgate me if you elect to go for the $29.95 brake job special...
  • jipsterjipster Louisville, KentuckyPosts: 5,441
    So based on a specialized skill set what should the starting pay be? In the $8-$12 range?

    Probably the $12-$15 range.
  • jipsterjipster Louisville, KentuckyPosts: 5,441
    edited March 2013
    I wouldn't allow them to touch my vehicle beyond the most basic repair

    Yeah, me too. When it comes to the basic services though... why pay the difference if you can't tell the difference?

    the CEL and Oil lights illuminate on his dashboard 15 minutes after he departs the quickie lube and brake shop, because the "technician" neglected to tighten the drain plug, he can rest in the knowledge that the few $'s

    The Quickie Lubes don't have a monopoly on bone-headed techs. I've read just as many, if not more, horror stories from people who had basic work done at a dealership.

    My point here folks, is that it is wrong to generalize and lump all of these low priced discount shops in the same barrel. They can be just as good, or bad, as the independent shop or dealership. Parts wise... debatable. Many non oem parts are just as good. You got a clunker you're only gonna keep a couple more years, why put on $100 pads?
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    edited March 2013
    The Quickie Lubes don't have a monopoly on bone-headed techs. I've read just as many, if not more, horror stories from people who had basic work done at a dealership.

    My point here folks, is that it is wrong to generalize and lump all of these low priced discount shops in the same barrel. They can be just as good, or bad, as the independent shop or dealership. Parts wise... debatable. Many non oem parts are just as good. You got a clunker you're only gonna keep a couple more years, why put on $100 pads?


    I don't think you're getting any disagreement on those points.

    However, chances are you'll get a higher level of service from a dealership or professional repair shop than a quickie lube/brake shop.

    Bottom line: know the competence level of the shop before allowing them to service your car.

    When it comes to the basic services though... why pay the difference if you can't tell the difference?

    Well, that's the $64,000 question, isn't it? Just because one can't see the difference doesn't imply there is no difference, as the video link a few postings back clearly demonstrated in regards to brake pads. Same goes for labor...
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,319
    edited March 2013
    >cheap parts are cheap parts...there's little left to opinion here...either the $10 brake pads are just as good as the $150 brake pad or they aren't.

    Parts is parts. I don't use cheaply made parts. But I felt that he was demagoguing the mass market stores, which might not necessarily do jobs for cheap, but might use cheap parts. E.g., the talker commented about brake rotors made in China. My Raybestos High Technology powder coated hub brake rotors sitting in the garage are made in, FANFARE, China. So what's cheap parts? I think I got the last Made in USA brake rotors at John's Auto Parts a few years back for my rears. He found two boxes on his shelf of a store name supposedly made by Raybestos that were marked "Made in USA." They're still on the rear.

    Are there any rotors NOT made in China?

    Guy almost sounded like he was campaigning for office in the way he went about things.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • jipsterjipster Louisville, KentuckyPosts: 5,441
    cheap parts are cheap parts and even Doc could not make a good brake job out of that stuff.

    The dude in the youtube video is probably tired of losing business to the BrakeWays of the world. :P

    Lots of good inexpensive non-OEM parts out there. Lots of cheap parts too. But, I don't think people are crashing and burning because a brake shop put a pair of cheap brake pads on their car. A lot of these brake places offer lifetime pads. For small fee they will add on lifetime labor.
  • jipsterjipster Louisville, KentuckyPosts: 5,441
    You guys talk like none of the independent shops exhibit the very same behavior

    Finally a voice of reason! :P ;)
  • jipsterjipster Louisville, KentuckyPosts: 5,441
    either the $10 brake pads are just as good as the $150 brake pad or they aren't.

    The question isn't, "are they just as good?" ... the question is," Do they get the job done?" To a lot of people on a budget, the answer is yes.

    We know you can afford those expensive $150 brake pads on that big Edmunds salary you draw shifty, but for a lot of blue collar working stiffs out there, the $10 pads do just fine. :shades:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 57,595
    " You got a clunker you're only gonna keep a couple more years, why put on $100 pads?"

    Answer: Because they are your BRAKES. :P

    "good enough" is....well....good enough.

    Is a Kia Rio "good enough"? Yeah.

    Is it a Porsche 911? No.

    You take a Kia Rio on a high speed run into the Alps and you'll die.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

  • jipsterjipster Louisville, KentuckyPosts: 5,441
    edited March 2013
    However, chances are you'll get a higher level of service from a dealership or professional repair shop than a quickie lube/brake shop.

    Bottom line: know the competence level of the shop before allowing them to service your car.


    I think it's been about ten years since I paid over $30 for a oil change at a dealership. Dealership oil changes are usually much lower than the Jiffy Lube places in my area. My Mazda dealership ran everyday $19.99 oil changes for 4 or 5 years. Currently Kia runs their oil changes at $24.99, and Hyundai $29.99. So the only thing a Valvoline Instant Oil Change or Jiffy Lube can offer with their $38 dollar oil changes, is a quick 20 minute oil change... if no one is in line that is.

    When I had brakes done at the Maza dealership, it was like $40 or $50 just to turn one rotor. I almost had them skip turnig the rotors as they were smooth with no pitting of grooves. The service tech highly recommended it, so I had it done.

    So a Quickie Lube... I wouldn't have any concerns getting an oil change there. Though why, as I pay less at a dealership. A Brakeway type of place, I would want a better quality pad. I'm sure they would be more than happy to put one on for me... for a little bit more green. :)
Sign In or Register to comment.