There's a support group for oil change hobbyists you know.
lol...I know I must sound like I enjoy it...or maybe..more accurately maybe I sound like a masochist? :lemon: :sick: I assure you, I'm neither. I hate doing it. Even on the dang scooter (it's a Yammy Majesty) the oil change is a PITA. That one uses a cartridge and has two places to drain. (although I bet most don't know about location #2). You have to try to hold the cartridge true and level while inserting it but trying to ensure the O ring doesn't slip off and not seat nice and true. On that one I discover a popsicle stick that has been well rubbed down with oil so no wood slivers come off, is a good size to slide the filter in on, then once seated, you hold it there tight while pulling the stick out. Then you have to be careful while trying to get the flange cap in place to grab the filter, fighting the spring the whole time, while you get your other hand out of the way. It's a bit of a design flaw I'm thinking, but probably not a serious one...I discovered a bit of sag in the conformed shape of the OEM factory installed one I suspect. It didn't leak, and maybe never would, but it feels better to have it torqued up true if possible. Leaking oil on bike tires don't mix well.
So those are additive residues right? I wondered if it was a form of molydenums (sp?) or whatever other endless stuff that can come in certain lube recipes.
I see the point you raise, but I'm just telling you what I heard. Pretty sure this goes on often out there.
That said though, I almost wonder if there are fewer cars running around over-filled now compared to back when full service gas stns were more the norm. "May I check your oil ma'am?" And of course it got the quart even if it was barely off the top mark. Given short shut down periods while being fueled and slow drain back intervals, many a car got a quart of oil when its level was just fine.
One of the things that never occurred to me (until it happened to me with my big truck) is that how do you KNOW your car came with the properly spec'd oil dip stick? My big Ford did not. Eventually figured out that Ford (or Cat) must sub out to a supplier of dipsticks as per the configuration of the truck it is going into. In my case it was a cabover so you had the long one you could check from standing at the grill of the truck in front.
Hmmm, now how do I write about what really happens today if one is overfilled and not be the bad guy for the effort?
Go for it! I'd like to know. More specifics the better.. Pretty sure you know how to fend of negativity fairly well by now, doc..
Sounds like my cars, reversed. My modern cars have always kept the oil clean in between changes, but the fintail turns it dark after a few hundred miles.
My '02 darkens it's oil quickly as well; I believe it is due to the '02 having a carburetor. Modern closed-loop fuel injection systems do a much better job of metering the exact amount of fuel the engine needs.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
For those of us who are curious about what is it that darkens the oil in some cars early after an oil change, it would be nice to waste $25 and get a Blackstone Lab analysis to see what is in there. I doubt we'd need the extra additive analysis that determines how much of the additives are left.
5w-30 conventional, which is what the car came with from the factory
It's true that you don't need a full synthetic to meet the dexos specification, but products that are today recognized as conventional range from Group I base stocks to Group III +. That's something that you cannot tell by the label alone. So the question bears repeating. What product are you using? Is it a licensed dexos product? Does it meet ACEA A1/B1, A5/B5? API SN ILSAC GF5?
Not in this country but it's happened in Taiwan, Qatar, India and Malaysia. Some of that stuff is getting pricey so it won't surprise me - we already get fake airbags and the like, and A&P mechanics have installed a half million fake parts on US aircraft, per one blurb I skimmed. Fake API labels is as close as we've gotten, I think (machinerylubrication.com).
You don't want to know about the HFCS in your honey or the Mafia adulterated olive oil that's common. And that $450 Gucci bag now includes a "genuine" receipt when you buy it for $80.
I like the emphasis on proprietary break-away caps for the oil jugs so they can't be reused. You know they just pump out new ones at some little plastic factory in a back alley. Probably just clone the entire jugs too, instead of trying to find a bunch of used ones to recycle.
How is any perceived counterfeiting especially about a handbag relevant to the question about whether tjc is sourcing a product that meets GM's specs for his car or not? We can spend time on the question about why you can't judge an oil's condition by just looking at it's color but if he is noticing significant color change in a short period of time that suggests to me that deposits might be forming and the fresh oil is picking some of that up and then holding it in suspension. If deposits are forming, he might not be using a product that meets GM's spec and I think he needs to know if that is the case or not.
BTW the easiest way to avoid a counterfeit $450 handbag is to buy a $30 K-mart one. JMHO
Or a $12 jug of SuperTech at WalMart, which brings me back to my point of why have all these expensive, manufacturer specific requirements. One spin-off of that will be fakery.
Oil is supposed to get dark, right? That means it's working. You could do some sort of blot test I suppose but the affordable gold standard would be a $25 analysis from some place like Blackstone Labs.
Go for it! I'd like to know. More specifics the better.. Pretty sure you know how to fend of negativity fairly well by now, doc..
No, I really don't. I just keep my head down and work harder to overcome roadblocks that someone else puts in my way. That's why I have the habit of studying like I do. I turn that negative stuff into the drive to learn more and try and improve my capabilities.
Or a $12 jug of SuperTech at WalMart, which brings me back to my point of why have all these expensive, manufacturer specific requirements. One spin-off of that will be fakery.
Why have all of the specs, because "one size oil doesn't fit all". You might as well argue for everyone driving just one kind of car.
From Walmarts Super tech website....
•Premium formulation utilizing 100 percent synthetic base oils and a high performance additive system •Increased protection for tough driving conditions that put extra stress and demands on your engine •Additive system utilizes a performance booster to provide better protection against sludge and varnish formation, keeping your engine cleaner longer •Meets or exceeds the latest North American new vehicle warranty requirements API SN, ILSAC GF-5 and previous API gasoline engine classifications SM, SN and ILSAC GF-4 •Superior low-temperature and high-temperature protection over conventional oils •Anti-wear additive to help extend engine life by reducing wear and oil breakdown •Compatible with leading conventional and synthetic motor oils
Specifically...
•Meets or exceeds the latest North American new vehicle warranty requirements API SN, ILSAC GF-5 and previous API gasoline engine classifications SM, SN and ILSAC GF-4
Which means it meets the requirements for the cars that have those requirements as the specs and if a manufacturers specification exceeds that spec, then this product is not approved for use in those vehicles. GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, and now even Hyundai all have specs that exceed API and ILSAC and again virtually none of the Euro's would be properly serviced with something that only meets API and ILSAC.
"Premium formulation, increased protection, utilizes a performance booster."
That's all marketing speak.
And it's the same language that GM uses for Dexos - "high quality, robust", "rigorous specifications" and "formulated exclusively". I love that last one, like SuperTech isn't formulated exclusively for Walmart.
"Many of these oils will advertise the benefit of "higher fuel economy." The claim isn't false because dexos and GF-5 oils do reduce internal engine friction that will improve fuel efficiency. Unfortunately the gains will be so small -- less than one percent -- that the average driver will never notice.
The API is a consumer-directed organization. The ILSAC, on the other hand, is a trade organization that works primarily with vehicle manufacturers and those who commercially produce engine oil."
Considering that the article is approaching three years old and we have learned a lot more about the subject through the years than we did at that time, he did OK with it.
This segment explains just one of the differences.
The dexos oil also has some unique properties that General Motors engineers required. One characteristic is better resistance to aeration (the whipping of air bubbles into the oil). Some GM engines with variable camshaft timing use engine oil as a hydraulic fluid to move components within the engine. If air bubbles are in the oil, components actuated by engine oil will not move as they were designed to, limiting engine performance and efficiency.
He closes with this one... Got that? Here’s the bottom line: use the oil recommended for your vehicle and you won’t have a problem.
I checked over at the FTC a bit earlier but there's still no action on the tying complaint against dexos. But it's only been about two years. :shades:
There was also some web comment to the effect that fleet owners could use some flavor of API stamped oil and their GM warranties wouldn't be affected. Be interested to learn if that was (and is) the case.
There was also some web comment to the effect that fleet owners could use some flavor of API stamped oil and their GM warranties wouldn't be affected. Be interested to learn if that was (and is) the case.
We have a poster who is noticing a condition that would not be considered normal IMO, and we don't have confirmation that he is using an approved product. Forget about the FTC for the moment, don't you think tjc would be better served with direct information instead of the smoke and mirrors stuff? ""What IF" he is using products that fail to or don't meet GM's specs?
Okay, so let's assume that TJC didn't use an approved GM spec oil, but used something "close enough", met all the interval requirements, and has proof the oil changes were actually done.
Now let's assume that GM denies a warranty claim on the engine (sludge or seizure, or whatever).
Now let's assume that TJC has unlimited time and resources and he sues GM. With enough money, you can drag up plenty of expert witnesses that can lay the blame for an engine failure on lots of things besides the type of oil used.
Who's to say who will win the court case in 3 to 5 years when it drags through all the stages and appeals?
That's part of my beef - Magnuson-Moss protects the consumer, but few people have the energy or money to fight big corp when they decide to deny a warranty claim (see the Hyundai story earlier). And I especially don't think it's fair for a manufacturer to say you have to use only our OEM parts or lubes for regular maintenance, and that includes the requirement of using "licensed" or "branded" lubes.
On the 2010 Equinox forum (troubles with or some other similar name) there are a LOT of reported issues with that car. But one of the really common themes, is really premature engine oil burning with the 2.4 I4. And it's burning not leaking.
It does seem a bit hard to get one's head around the possibility that a soccer mom's stop(s) at 'Jiffy Lube' (as just an example of any oil change joint that isn't at the dealer, or doc's where she would get the proper Dexos1 oil) could be possibly be behind such premature engine wear. I can't even imagine oil drops lingering on the bottom of a piston too long (thereby contributing to higher piston temps) compared to another more properly spec'd oil, being behind some of this oil consumption. Not in the relatively few 10000's of thousands of miles it is taking for this condition to surface. Come to think of it, I think some owners have reported excessive oil consumption with the oil that came in it right from the factory, discovering that there was none showing on the end of the dipstick, after only 7000 miles in some cases. Yet other owners report no such condition and claim their Equinox is just fine and burns no oil at 80000+ miles.
So is the oil behind some of these issues we hear about...not necessarily Equinox's, or is it more about poorly designed/built engines? It is no secret that GM and others too of course, have built some pretty carpy engines by trying some too outta the box thinking and unrealistic expectations with engine design/build. Remember the old Vega and Astra cylinder bores metal content? or the 4/6/8's in Caddy's? Could it be that the tech in oil is so superior today, that cylinder deactivation used in Dodge's hemi V8, the MDS, and others like Honda's V6, is a totally different design and possibly dependable with good longevity potential? Of course that said..Honda has been having issues with that V6 I think. Could oil changes at JL be behind that issue as well?
Many brands use the oil as a hydraulic fluid since they started offering greater control and timing of valve train operations.
Out of curiosity, doc, or anyone, what do you think of Dodge's MDS system? Do you know of any high mileage engines with that system without issues? My Uncle just bought one and he said it works like an auto transmission. I was going to get him to elaborate but his name was called to see the doc. (we happened to run into each other at the med doc's office). He claimed he was getting 30 mpg (Imp gal)) around town in a 4x4. Truck only has 700 miles on it and he has had it half a year..he is elderly and doesn't drive much or very far from town. I think he MUST be mistaken tho with the mileage he thinks he's getting. He did say that it is quite easy to keep it on 4 cyl if you are light footed.
That's part of my beef - Magnuson-Moss protects the consumer,
Magnuson Moss states that if the manufacturer demands that their product by name is used or the warranty will be denied, they have to provide that product for free. GM has never said that you have to buy only the bottles with GM's name on them.
but few people have the energy or money to fight big corp when they decide to deny a warranty claim (see the Hyundai story earlier).
Totally avoidable situation, and it's consumers following flawed advice that lead him to that outcome. Again JMHO.
And I especially don't think it's fair for a manufacturer to say you have to use only our OEM parts or lubes for regular maintenance, and that includes the requirement of using "licensed" or "branded" lubes.
So then you must think that it's fair that anyone can pour anything they want into their engines and if their plan doesn't work out have someone else responsible for their folly?
While "you" want to nit-pick the nuances, there are consumers suffering genuine failures because they followed false information and are using products that don't meet their vehicles specs. At that point it doesn't really even matter who is paying, it shouldn't have happened. The specs are simple, the explanations for them are too. It's the nay-sayers who are making this more complicated than it needs to be. You don't have the consumers best interest first when you do anything but advise them to properly follow the manufacturers specs. JMHO again.
While "you" want to nit-pick the nuances, there are consumers suffering genuine failures because they followed false information and are using products that don't meet their vehicles specs. At that point it doesn't really even matter who is paying, it shouldn't have happened. The specs are simple, the explanations for them are too. It's the nay-sayers who are making this more complicated than it needs to be. You don't have the consumers best interest first when you do anything but advise them to properly follow the manufacturers specs. JMHO again.
I think that's a good point.
One doesn't have to spend much time on many car forums to see lots of examples of "expert opinions" that are ANYTHING but expert.
You can find some poster somewhere claiming he goes 20K+ between oil changes and hasn't experienced any problems (I always add the word "yet" when I read such claims).
Manufacturers aren't guilt free in this confusion, either. Lots and lots of Vega owners followed GM's maintenance schedule to the letter and suffered engine failures, some before, but many after warranty expiration.
Even so, as I see it, the best course of action (at a minimum) is to follow the manufacturer's suggestions on service.
GM has never said that you have to buy only the bottles with GM's name on them.
Dexos is a GM brand that GM licenses. And GM certifies the oil. (link). I think that's what the FTC complaint is largely about - tying the brand of oil that must be used to the manufacturer. Maybe we'll get an answer from the FTC before we both retire.
there are consumers suffering genuine failures because they followed false information and are using products that don't meet their vehicles specs.
Or maybe, as Gimme says, there's just some crappy engines out there.
Didn't Toyota redo the engine oil passages after all their "gel" problems that they tried to blame on consumers not properly changing their oil?
Or maybe, as Gimme says, there's just some crappy engines out there.
No one bats 1000, so the question isn't so much whether or not crappy engines exists, but how frequently crappy engines are designed/manufactured and actually make it into production cars.
Okay, so let's assume that TJC didn't use an approved GM spec oil, but used something "close enough", met all the interval requirements, and has proof the oil changes were actually done.
The burden of proof at that point would be on him to demonstrate that the product he used fully met the specs, close enough actually doesn't count..
Not exactly - there could be other causes of engine failure besides the type of oil used.
At that point you open your wallet and engage the battle of the experts. It's not a slam dunk that using the wrong oil will cause an engine failure; it's just one more argument against you that you have to overcome.
And you can get justice, if your pockets are deep enough.
And you can get justice, if your pockets are deep enough.
So, tjc suffers a failure and it's proven that the products that he chose fell short of the manufacturers specs. He now has a savvy lawyer and they turn their sights on to this forum and your efforts and demonstration that lead him to believe that he didn't need to follow the dexos specification when GM successfully proved that he did. You are in the position of greater knowledge and should have known how to advise him correctly, but didn't do so for whatever reason. Are you ready to assume the responsibility for his warranty expense as well as his previous legal damages (expenses)?
I just noticed my 2012 535 with 25K miles on it feels a bit bumpy on the highway. I thought it was the highway but I think it is happening on to many roads just to be the road itself. It's just a bit of a vibration feel coming through the steering wheel and I think the passenger noticed it too because my wife said she could feel a subtle vibration.
Do you think it needs an alignment or new tires? Is that something they can detect fairly easy or is this going to be one of those things that are impossible to find?
No, I'm saying one of his experts may prove to the satisfaction of the judge or jury that the oil didn't matter. The engine problem was the result of something else.
No different than having a warranty claim denied because someone put an aftermarket towing hitch on their car and the transmission blows up. The burden may shift to the owner when the claim is denied, but if the owner convinces the judge that the hitch was only there to carry bicycles, then you're back at finding another reason for the transmission failure.
And anyone can adhere to the dexos standard by having GM certify their oil, pay the licensing fee and stick GM's brand on the label.
True, if they want to display GM's Dexos icon on the label, but there's no licensing fee required if the label simply states the product meets or exceeds GM's Dexos specifications.
But GM would have to certify the oil; otherwise you're in warranty denial country.
I don't think that's the case. GM has to provide the specifications, or as doc stated, it has to provide the product for free. You can't make a requirement mandatory if you don't tell the other party what the requirement is...
Once the specs are known, any competent lab could ascertain whether or not the 3rd party product meets the specifications or not. That's a common approach to verifying a product's fitness and suitability for a given situation.
I doubt most motor oils that state they meet a manufacturer's specification have actually been verified by the individual manufacturer.
Well, this is what GM says at that GMdexos.com site:
"To ensure you are using the recommemded oil for your GM car, choose authentic, licensed dexos™ oils. dexos™ is an exclusive trademark of General Motors. Only those oils displaying the green or blue dexos™ trademark and icon on the front label have been certified and licensed by GM as meeting the demanding performance requirements and stringent quality standards of the dexos™ specification."
That's my bolding. Don't use their "labeled" oil and you risk a warranty claim denial.
That's their misspelling of "recommemded" btw. They can't even proof their webpage and we're supposed to trust their oil? :P
Specs are fine; it's just that I'd rather see the API do the labeling and compliance stuff.
So it makes this vibration regardless of throttle pedal acceleration or deceleration? Even gentle vibration...next time out turn the stereo off, as the better half to not talk for a bit while you are concentrating on a smooth road, maybe even a bit of grade too. Apply a little throttle. I'd do it from a stop. You're looking to feel a type of vibration that could be associated with a drivetrain component...like a drive shaft or CV joint. This type of vibration is more of a warple that is in sync with every revolution...so in a way not unlike if it was a tire out of balance too, but this type of gentle whomp does feel different than an unbalanced tire or brake rotor, but unlike a tire out of balance will often reveal itself practically from being stopped, so a certain speed is not needed. If your car is RWD only, then even easier to rule out a front tire balance on the acceleration test (which...btw, does not have to be aggressive to get it to show...you more want your senses clued right in sometimes to feel it depending on the severity) because the steering wheel will not have a slight shimmy to it, which it will have with, not even if a front wheel is out of balance (but is especially easy to zero in on that if it is a fr) but with a rear too in some cars. If it is a rear, have Mrs Driver sit in the back seat on one of the tests so that you can observe the passenger seat back. If it's a rear tire then the seat back might show that imbalance by a bit of quivering as you're driving down the road under the speed/conditions that you find reveals it the easiest.
A faulty tire can also feel like a tire out of balance.
And even with only 25k miles or 41k km, even though that is very few miles, a drivetrain warple issue sometimes does happen that soon. My XT6 had to have the entire driveshaft replaced front to back for a drivetrain vibration, and it only had high 40k km on it at the time.
edit - also, can you see any visual signs of a wheel weight missing? Glue or 3M sponge backing left over? Don't forget to look on the inside of the rims too, but at least if it was an outside one, a mere walk-around looking carefully 360 around each rim...you might get lucky and see a suspect spot..
Comments
(There's a support group for oil change hobbyists you know. :shades: )
lol...I know I must sound like I enjoy it...or maybe..more accurately maybe I sound like a masochist? :lemon: :sick:
I assure you, I'm neither. I hate doing it. Even on the dang scooter (it's a Yammy Majesty) the oil change is a PITA. That one uses a cartridge and has two places to drain. (although I bet most don't know about location #2). You have to try to hold the cartridge true and level while inserting it but trying to ensure the O ring doesn't slip off and not seat nice and true. On that one I discover a popsicle stick that has been well rubbed down with oil so no wood slivers come off, is a good size to slide the filter in on, then once seated, you hold it there tight while pulling the stick out. Then you have to be careful while trying to get the flange cap in place to grab the filter, fighting the spring the whole time, while you get your other hand out of the way. It's a bit of a design flaw I'm thinking, but probably not a serious one...I discovered a bit of sag in the conformed shape of the OEM factory installed one I suspect. It didn't leak, and maybe never would, but it feels better to have it torqued up true if possible. Leaking oil on bike tires don't mix well.
That said though, I almost wonder if there are fewer cars running around over-filled now compared to back when full service gas stns were more the norm. "May I check your oil ma'am?" And of course it got the quart even if it was barely off the top mark. Given short shut down periods while being fueled and slow drain back intervals, many a car got a quart of oil when its level was just fine.
One of the things that never occurred to me (until it happened to me with my big truck) is that how do you KNOW your car came with the properly spec'd oil dip stick? My big Ford did not. Eventually figured out that Ford (or Cat) must sub out to a supplier of dipsticks as per the configuration of the truck it is going into. In my case it was a cabover so you had the long one you could check from standing at the grill of the truck in front.
Hmmm, now how do I write about what really happens today if one is overfilled and not be the bad guy for the effort?
Go for it! I'd like to know. More specifics the better..
Pretty sure you know how to fend of negativity fairly well by now, doc..
My '02 darkens it's oil quickly as well; I believe it is due to the '02 having a carburetor. Modern closed-loop fuel injection systems do a much better job of metering the exact amount of fuel the engine needs.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I am afraid to do an oil analysis of that car - I might not want to know what could be wrong with it!
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
It's true that you don't need a full synthetic to meet the dexos specification, but products that are today recognized as conventional range from Group I base stocks to Group III +. That's something that you cannot tell by the label alone. So the question bears repeating. What product are you using? Is it a licensed dexos product? Does it meet ACEA A1/B1, A5/B5? API SN ILSAC GF5?
You don't want to know about the HFCS in your honey or the Mafia adulterated olive oil that's common. And that $450 Gucci bag now includes a "genuine" receipt when you buy it for $80.
When I get my 5W30, I want the real stuff.
So the receipt is "genuine" but the bag isn't?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I like the emphasis on proprietary break-away caps for the oil jugs so they can't be reused. You know they just pump out new ones at some little plastic factory in a back alley. Probably just clone the entire jugs too, instead of trying to find a bunch of used ones to recycle.
BTW the easiest way to avoid a counterfeit $450 handbag is to buy a $30 K-mart one. JMHO
Oil is supposed to get dark, right? That means it's working. You could do some sort of blot test I suppose but the affordable gold standard would be a $25 analysis from some place like Blackstone Labs.
Pretty sure you know how to fend of negativity fairly well by now, doc..
No, I really don't. I just keep my head down and work harder to overcome roadblocks that someone else puts in my way. That's why I have the habit of studying like I do. I turn that negative stuff into the drive to learn more and try and improve my capabilities.
Why have all of the specs, because "one size oil doesn't fit all". You might as well argue for everyone driving just one kind of car.
From Walmarts Super tech website....
•Premium formulation utilizing 100 percent synthetic base oils and a high performance additive system
•Increased protection for tough driving conditions that put extra stress and demands on your engine
•Additive system utilizes a performance booster to provide better protection against sludge and varnish formation, keeping your engine cleaner longer
•Meets or exceeds the latest North American new vehicle warranty requirements API SN, ILSAC GF-5 and previous API gasoline engine classifications SM, SN and ILSAC GF-4
•Superior low-temperature and high-temperature protection over conventional oils
•Anti-wear additive to help extend engine life by reducing wear and oil breakdown
•Compatible with leading conventional and synthetic motor oils
Specifically...
•Meets or exceeds the latest North American new vehicle warranty requirements API SN, ILSAC GF-5 and previous API gasoline engine classifications SM, SN and ILSAC GF-4
Which means it meets the requirements for the cars that have those requirements as the specs and if a manufacturers specification exceeds that spec, then this product is not approved for use in those vehicles. GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, and now even Hyundai all have specs that exceed API and ILSAC and again virtually none of the Euro's would be properly serviced with something that only meets API and ILSAC.
That's all marketing speak.
And it's the same language that GM uses for Dexos - "high quality, robust", "rigorous specifications" and "formulated exclusively". I love that last one, like SuperTech isn't formulated exclusively for Walmart.
Interesting article over at AOL.
"Many of these oils will advertise the benefit of "higher fuel economy." The claim isn't false because dexos and GF-5 oils do reduce internal engine friction that will improve fuel efficiency. Unfortunately the gains will be so small -- less than one percent -- that the average driver will never notice.
The API is a consumer-directed organization. The ILSAC, on the other hand, is a trade organization that works primarily with vehicle manufacturers and those who commercially produce engine oil."
This segment explains just one of the differences.
The dexos oil also has some unique properties that General Motors engineers required. One characteristic is better resistance to aeration (the whipping of air bubbles into the oil). Some GM engines with variable camshaft timing use engine oil as a hydraulic fluid to move components within the engine. If air bubbles are in the oil, components actuated by engine oil will not move as they were designed to, limiting engine performance and efficiency.
He closes with this one...
Got that? Here’s the bottom line: use the oil recommended for your vehicle and you won’t have a problem.
But don't miss his title it's worth repeating.
GM's New Engine Oil: Use It Or Else!
Dexos 1 Is Mandatory
There was also some web comment to the effect that fleet owners could use some flavor of API stamped oil and their GM warranties wouldn't be affected. Be interested to learn if that was (and is) the case.
LOL!
We have a poster who is noticing a condition that would not be considered normal IMO, and we don't have confirmation that he is using an approved product. Forget about the FTC for the moment, don't you think tjc would be better served with direct information instead of the smoke and mirrors stuff? ""What IF" he is using products that fail to or don't meet GM's specs?
Now let's assume that GM denies a warranty claim on the engine (sludge or seizure, or whatever).
Now let's assume that TJC has unlimited time and resources and he sues GM. With enough money, you can drag up plenty of expert witnesses that can lay the blame for an engine failure on lots of things besides the type of oil used.
Who's to say who will win the court case in 3 to 5 years when it drags through all the stages and appeals?
That's part of my beef - Magnuson-Moss protects the consumer, but few people have the energy or money to fight big corp when they decide to deny a warranty claim (see the Hyundai story earlier). And I especially don't think it's fair for a manufacturer to say you have to use only our OEM parts or lubes for regular maintenance, and that includes the requirement of using "licensed" or "branded" lubes.
It does seem a bit hard to get one's head around the possibility that a soccer mom's stop(s) at 'Jiffy Lube' (as just an example of any oil change joint that isn't at the dealer, or doc's where she would get the proper Dexos1 oil) could be possibly be behind such premature engine wear. I can't even imagine oil drops lingering on the bottom of a piston too long (thereby contributing to higher piston temps) compared to another more properly spec'd oil, being behind some of this oil consumption. Not in the relatively few 10000's of thousands of miles it is taking for this condition to surface. Come to think of it, I think some owners have reported excessive oil consumption with the oil that came in it right from the factory, discovering that there was none showing on the end of the dipstick, after only 7000 miles in some cases. Yet other owners report no such condition and claim their Equinox is just fine and burns no oil at 80000+ miles.
So is the oil behind some of these issues we hear about...not necessarily Equinox's, or is it more about poorly designed/built engines? It is no secret that GM and others too of course, have built some pretty carpy engines by trying some too outta the box thinking and unrealistic expectations with engine design/build. Remember the old Vega and Astra cylinder bores metal content? or the 4/6/8's in Caddy's? Could it be that the tech in oil is so superior today, that cylinder deactivation used in Dodge's hemi V8, the MDS, and others like Honda's V6, is a totally different design and possibly dependable with good longevity potential? Of course that said..Honda has been having issues with that V6 I think. Could oil changes at JL be behind that issue as well?
Many brands use the oil as a hydraulic fluid since they started offering greater control and timing of valve train operations.
Out of curiosity, doc, or anyone, what do you think of Dodge's MDS system? Do you know of any high mileage engines with that system without issues? My Uncle just bought one and he said it works like an auto transmission. I was going to get him to elaborate but his name was called to see the doc. (we happened to run into each other at the med doc's office). He claimed he was getting 30 mpg (Imp gal)) around town in a 4x4. Truck only has 700 miles on it and he has had it half a year..he is elderly and doesn't drive much or very far from town. I think he MUST be mistaken tho with the mileage he thinks he's getting. He did say that it is quite easy to keep it on 4 cyl if you are light footed.
Magnuson Moss states that if the manufacturer demands that their product by name is used or the warranty will be denied, they have to provide that product for free. GM has never said that you have to buy only the bottles with GM's name on them.
but few people have the energy or money to fight big corp when they decide to deny a warranty claim (see the Hyundai story earlier).
Totally avoidable situation, and it's consumers following flawed advice that lead him to that outcome. Again JMHO.
And I especially don't think it's fair for a manufacturer to say you have to use only our OEM parts or lubes for regular maintenance, and that includes the requirement of using "licensed" or "branded" lubes.
So then you must think that it's fair that anyone can pour anything they want into their engines and if their plan doesn't work out have someone else responsible for their folly?
While "you" want to nit-pick the nuances, there are consumers suffering genuine failures because they followed false information and are using products that don't meet their vehicles specs. At that point it doesn't really even matter who is paying, it shouldn't have happened. The specs are simple, the explanations for them are too. It's the nay-sayers who are making this more complicated than it needs to be. You don't have the consumers best interest first when you do anything but advise them to properly follow the manufacturers specs. JMHO again.
I think that's a good point.
One doesn't have to spend much time on many car forums to see lots of examples of "expert opinions" that are ANYTHING but expert.
You can find some poster somewhere claiming he goes 20K+ between oil changes and hasn't experienced any problems (I always add the word "yet" when I read such claims).
Manufacturers aren't guilt free in this confusion, either. Lots and lots of Vega owners followed GM's maintenance schedule to the letter and suffered engine failures, some before, but many after warranty expiration.
Even so, as I see it, the best course of action (at a minimum) is to follow the manufacturer's suggestions on service.
Dexos is a GM brand that GM licenses. And GM certifies the oil. (link). I think that's what the FTC complaint is largely about - tying the brand of oil that must be used to the manufacturer. Maybe we'll get an answer from the FTC before we both retire.
there are consumers suffering genuine failures because they followed false information and are using products that don't meet their vehicles specs.
Or maybe, as Gimme says, there's just some crappy engines out there.
Didn't Toyota redo the engine oil passages after all their "gel" problems that they tried to blame on consumers not properly changing their oil?
No one bats 1000, so the question isn't so much whether or not crappy engines exists, but how frequently crappy engines are designed/manufactured and actually make it into production cars.
brandSpecification that GM licensesCertainly, when someone familiar with oil comes across dexos, they think GM, not Royal Purple or Amsoil or Esso.
The burden of proof at that point would be on him to demonstrate that the product he used fully met the specs, close enough actually doesn't count..
At that point you open your wallet and engage the battle of the experts. It's not a slam dunk that using the wrong oil will cause an engine failure; it's just one more argument against you that you have to overcome.
And you can get justice, if your pockets are deep enough.
So, tjc suffers a failure and it's proven that the products that he chose fell short of the manufacturers specs. He now has a savvy lawyer and they turn their sights on to this forum and your efforts and demonstration that lead him to believe that he didn't need to follow the dexos specification when GM successfully proved that he did. You are in the position of greater knowledge and should have known how to advise him correctly, but didn't do so for whatever reason. Are you ready to assume the responsibility for his warranty expense as well as his previous legal damages (expenses)?
Do you think it needs an alignment or new tires? Is that something they can detect fairly easy or is this going to be one of those things that are impossible to find?
Any advice is appreciated!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
No different than having a warranty claim denied because someone put an aftermarket towing hitch on their car and the transmission blows up. The burden may shift to the owner when the claim is denied, but if the owner convinces the judge that the hitch was only there to carry bicycles, then you're back at finding another reason for the transmission failure.
True, if they want to display GM's Dexos icon on the label, but there's no licensing fee required if the label simply states the product meets or exceeds GM's Dexos specifications.
Could be something other than tires. I'd take a chance and have it balanced and rotated unless the wear indicators are showing.
Thanks oby, sounds like a good start.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I don't think that's the case. GM has to provide the specifications, or as doc stated, it has to provide the product for free. You can't make a requirement mandatory if you don't tell the other party what the requirement is...
Once the specs are known, any competent lab could ascertain whether or not the 3rd party product meets the specifications or not. That's a common approach to verifying a product's fitness and suitability for a given situation.
I doubt most motor oils that state they meet a manufacturer's specification have actually been verified by the individual manufacturer.
"To ensure you are using the recommemded oil for your GM car, choose authentic, licensed dexos™ oils. dexos™ is an exclusive trademark of General Motors. Only those oils displaying the green or blue dexos™ trademark and icon on the front label have been certified and licensed by GM as meeting the demanding performance requirements and stringent quality standards of the dexos™ specification."
That's my bolding. Don't use their "labeled" oil and you risk a warranty claim denial.
That's their misspelling of "recommemded" btw. They can't even proof their webpage and we're supposed to trust their oil? :P
Specs are fine; it's just that I'd rather see the API do the labeling and compliance stuff.
Hilarious,,my thoughts exactly as soon as I saw that..
A faulty tire can also feel like a tire out of balance.
And even with only 25k miles or 41k km, even though that is very few miles, a drivetrain warple issue sometimes does happen that soon. My XT6 had to have the entire driveshaft replaced front to back for a drivetrain vibration, and it only had high 40k km on it at the time.
edit - also, can you see any visual signs of a wheel weight missing? Glue or 3M sponge backing left over? Don't forget to look on the inside of the rims too, but at least if it was an outside one, a mere walk-around looking carefully 360 around each rim...you might get lucky and see a suspect spot..