Not in the Oxmoor(ons) dealer group. Although I have to admit Oxmoor Ford's parts department is somewhat more competent than the jokers at Bill Collins Ford(and boy, is THAT damning with faint praise!!!) I use a Ford synthetic transmission oil( XT-M5-QS) in my Mazdaspeed and a while back I was preparing to change it. I went to the Bill Collins web site and found that the parts department page is configured so that you can send an e-mail message to the parts desk. I asked if they had the fluid in stock and gave the part number. In less than two hours I received a personalized response-NOT an auto-reply, I'll point out-advising me that they had a dozen quarts in stock. So..... Later that day I drop my son off at soccer practice and I drive over to Bill Collins. I tell the parts guy what I want, he types it into the inventory computer and tells me "We don't got any." I explained that I received an e-mail stating it was in stock and he replies, "That's the problem; you shoulda called instead." Grrrr... So the next day I decided to call Oxmoor Ford(yes, I was desperate) about the synthetic transmission oil. I went to their web site and called the local number they listed- and I get the following recorded reply: "You have reached Oxmoor Ford's internet sales office. If you wish to reach the parts department press 1 now" So I press 1 and get: "I'm sorry that is an invalid number". :mad: :mad: :mad: I finally Google the dealership and get a number that connects me to a live receptionist. The guy in parts claims that he has eight quarts. I drove over and-wonder of wonders-they actually DID have the correct oil in stock. I have to thank you jip, I was actually considering a Focus ST or Fiesta ST; this all reminds me that such a plan probably wouldn't end well. At all.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
e your plumber did a great job.. $900 for a permanent, well-done fix, compared to $450 for a crappy non-fix from the other guy.
You could certainly see it that way, and I have said to myself...yes, I would rather pay $900 for a permanent fix than $450 for a temporary fix.
But, $450 for a temporary fix that lasted about a year, and was doomed to fail was way to much to pay. Therefore, that is a meaningless measuring guide.
I don't know what a plumber charges per hour. Say it's $80, then I think $200 an hour plus odds and ends, charge to get there (about 5 hours after promised or I would have lined up someone else), plus a premium for figuring it all out and doing a neat job....$400 to $500 would be fair.
Everything is relative, it is worth $900 compared to the other guys $450, but the $450 fix was probably worth about $100...he took almost 4 hours to do a repair that was doomed from the start.
I have to thank you jip, I was actually considering a Focus ST or Fiesta ST; this all reminds me that such a plan probably wouldn't end well.
How about a commission on all the money, pain and aggravation I just saved you? :shades:
I live about 12 miles from Bill Collins Ford. They gave us a free one week car rental on my mother-in laws Mercury Mariner when I brought it in for warranty work. Extended warranty only provided for 2 days (We were going to Florida). I thought they did pretty good work work on... Lol, can't recall, though they couldn't find a brake problem I wrote about in another discussion. Brakes make a intermittent popping noise under hard braking. Someone suggested a problem with ABS.
I'm not sure how my story about a repair going wrong compares to everyone else's but this was clearly something that I couldn't just handle myself. I was 24, it was a sunday evening and I didn't feel well. A few hours later the pain I was experiencing left little doubt that something was really wrong. So off to the hospital we go and the doctor quickly confirmed appendicitis. They started antibiotics, and some really good pain killers and set about monitoring the situation during the night. The next day when they took me down for surgery they told my wife and sister that they could go to lunch and they would see them in about an hour. The doctor started with what was called a bikini cut. That's a two inch incision just below than the belt line. Somehow there was a problem and that incision had to be increased to five inches in length. After some time without any success the doctor then had to cut vertically another five inch incision on the inside end of the horizontal cut. Some three and a half hours later they were finally able to close me back up and get me off to the recovery room.
That evening they woke me up and had me try to get out of the bed, it wasn't happening. Try as I may it wasn't just the discomfort, I simply couldn't even sit up. The nurse ended up helping me enough to sit up and then get over to a chair in the room. For the most part I heal pretty fast and on friday I went home.
Monday morning I went back to work. To do that I wrapped my mid section tightly with a large ace bandage and taped it all up. On wednesday that week I had to leave work to get the staples out. They already had me pulling an engine out of an S-10 truck for an oil leak complaint. I'll never forget the look on the doctors face when he saw me sitting there with grease stained hands in my work uniform. "What are you doing?" he asked, clearly voicing objection to me doing anything but laying in a bed somewhere. He didn't understand it didn't matter how much I was hurting, if I didn't get back to work my wife and daughter wouldn't have had anything to eat the next week. As a flat rate tech there was no such thing as sick days. I never let on to anyone else at the shop just how big of a hole they cut in me the week before.
Wow! I've never had a hospital ordeal that serious. My visits have only involved kidney stones, cataracts, and getting patched up after losing an argument with a Galion T500 road grader.
That said, I have had two bouts with chest pains, each resulting in a grim misdiagnosis: I first experienced pains in 2005; the MD I had at the time sent me for a nuclear treadmill test. The results showed a 75% blockage. MD gives me Nitroglycerin pills on a Thursday but-since it is Memorial Day weekend-I can't see a cardiologist until the next Tuesday. Over the next four days i almost literally walked on eggshells. On Tuesday I see the cardiologist and his first words are, "I assume you know that particular test generates a LOT of false positives." News to me- my MD sure as heck didn't tell me. Anyway, he puts me on a treadmill to get my heart rate up to a certain level- at which point they will look at things with an ultrasound scanner. The tech keeps increasing the speed and incline to get my heart rate up, and he asks if I exercise. I tell him that I run on a treadmill or ride a recumbent bike 3-4 days per week. He flat-out tells me, "Based on what I'm having to do to increase your heart rate, I can almost guarantee that you don't have any heart problems." And I didn't. My wife worked in the medical field and she was absolutely livid that my MD put me through all that, so needless to say, we changed doctors. But what REALLY p*ssed me off about the whole debacle was that it all hit the fan just as I was about to pull the trigger on a mint BMW K75S a buddy had found for me. By the time I learned that I wasn't going to be having a quadruple bypass the bike was long gone... :mad:
Fast forward 7 years; chest pains return. My current MD tells me to go to the ER. ER finds no heart issues, but they want to do some scans of my gall bladder and the surrounding area- thinking that might be my problem. Finally a somber-faced ER doctor comes in. "Mr. B, I hate to bring you bad news, but we found a spot on your liver. I'm sure your regular doctor will want to do some additional tests, but I'm really sorry." The next day my MD's nurse calls and tells me, "Dr. D wanted me to phone you to tell you not to worry. None of your blood work shows a liver problem; he is almost certain the spot is a benign cyst, but he is scheduling an MRI to be 100% sure. And he was right of course. The chest pains turned out to be acid reflux. What a difference "bedside manner" can make- he is also a car/bike guy, with a new Shelby GT350 and GT500 in his garage as well as a Victory 8 Ball and a Factory Five Cobra. I definitely chose the wrong profession... :
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Took guts to go into work like that (no pun intended), but when you have family, you do what it takes.
Pain has been a constant companion. Between a sprained knee, fractures of a wrist, thumb, fingers (multiple times), ankle, dislocated elbow and both shoulders and a cervical spine injury (C3, C4, C5) on top of all of the normal cuts, burns and smashed fingers you just got to make yourself keep going. The worst part is you can't take the really strong pain killers. Anything that dulls your concentration will easily result in mental errors, so you just have to tough it out.
That habit of toughing it out almost killed me about three years ago. Going up a stairway to a carpet store I got a splinter from the handrail. It went into the web between the thumb and index finger of my right hand. Seeing it, I knew that I had to immeadiately pull it right back out before it started to hurt. It was almost 3/16 inch in diameter and stuck into my hand close to two inches. By that evening my hand was hurting pretty bad. The next morning it was starting to swell up. I kept expecting it to get better but by sunday morning it was clearly getting infected. That ended up being another hospital stay and some exploratory surgery and sure enough another two inches of splinter was removed from the center of the palm of my hand that was in almost to my wrist. I spent the rest of that week in the hospital on antibiotics for that one.
I'm not so sure that was a good decision Doc. As Charles deGaulle was famous for saying to subordinates defending their jobs: "But, my good man, the cemetery is FILLED with totally indispensable men".
I personally do not accord respect to a credential on the wall, automatically.
The technician has to prove himself to me first. He can talk the best game in the world, spit polish his shop floor, show my his brand new scanner/laser blaster, but it all comes down to fixing the car correctly.....or not.
As Charles deGaulle was famous for saying to subordinates defending their jobs: "But, my good man, the cemetery is FILLED with totally indispensable men".
Hmmm, you'd think a guy who was that smart would realize that there is always room for more.
I don't know how your shop is set up, but I've often wondered how techs handle the heat in summer and cold in winter? You've got that garage door going up and down all the time, letting cars in and out. I assume not all garages/shops have a/c. Must be hard on the hands and joints.
I air condition the whole shop. It will get up to 78-80f on the really hot days, but just the fact that we cut the humidity down as far as we do makes a big difference. Even so I often find myself leaning over an engine with the cooling fans running. That works out to 120-140f for brief periods of time.
The productiviy that I don't lose on any one afternoon because of heat pays for the AC all month.
The winter is another story altogether. It costs as much as $800 a month to try and keep the shop in the low 60's. I can't let my hands get cold at all anymore so maintaining a minimum temperature in the shop is an absolute must.
We'd all like to think that the gears of the world would jam when we fly off to that big repair shop in the sky, but in fact, ol' man Universe, he just keeps on rollin'........
. It costs as much as $800 a month to try and keep the shop in the low 60's.
While we are on the subject, do you offer coffee and donuts to your customers? How about wide flat screen TV and current newspapers?
My BMW dealer used to have little muffins and apples. They have really cheaped out lately though at least they have coffee still.
The new MB dealership has a mini-putt and a hair and nail salon. You could litterally eat off the floor in their garage. I guess one will be paying extra for all of that.
Even my Mazda dealer has complementary soft drinks, coffee, and snacks. My BMW dealer has the same, only the snacks are a little bit upscale. The BMW dealer I patronized-before my local dealer got their act together-offers free car washes on Wednesdays and Saturdays, and they used to have grreat doughnuts and pastries on Saturdays. When we were in the vicinity my son always wanted to spend Saturday morning there- checking out the cars and stuffing himself on glazed clocolate doughnuts...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
>$800 a month to try and keep the shop in the low 60's.
Have you checked into alternative heating from the used motor oils you collect from your service jobs? An area park authority was topic of a news story a few years back about how they use it for heating their truck service building.
Well if I couldn't actually fix cars myself I'd try and market my shop in such a way as to make something else be more important too.
That dealer had a decent service department and a great parts department. Added perks won't convince me to patronize a shop with a bad service or parts department.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Well if I couldn't actually fix cars myself I'd try and market my shop in such a way as to make something else be more important too
Are you working at full capacity? How can you get more customers? Do you actively try to get more customers? Do you use coupons or any other marketing.....sales, advertise in local paper?
My rule is most businesses lose at least 10% of their customers every year, just because of natural changes. Every business has to replace those customers and probably gain at least 10% more to grow.
It is hard to be good at what you do, but also have management and marketing and sales skills too. Most businesses need more than just your skills. They need sales ability too.
One marketing course I took used as an example, there were once two great artists, Talouse Latrec and Salvadore Dali. Lautrec made great paintings, but he wasn't a salesman, died penniless. Dali, great artist, even a better marketing genius, is very wealthy.
We get them hand delivered all the time. I picked a niche to specialize in, electronics and onboard computerized systems. Of course I still do the regular easy stuff when we get the chance but more than 60% of what we do is the most difficult issues that cars create today. I can show you that more than 50% of the work I do is something I've never seen before, and am not likely to see a second time.
Do you actively try to get more customers?
Of course to a degree. Really don't have a whole lot of room for too many unless they are coming in for the easy stuff.
Do you use coupons or any other marketing.....sales, advertise in local paper
Some, from time to time. The radio show that I do does a lot to get people in, but usually its going to be the same old story. If someone is really happy with their present shop, there is no reason for them to go somewhere else. If they aren't happy it's generally because of a technology issue where the problem is simply beyond their ability to handle due to an equipment or training gap. That goes right back to a lot of customers getting handed right to us. The problem is we get to have the nightmare and do solve them, but that doesn't usually make them a full time customer. They often only think of us again in five or six years when they experience another odd failure.
It is hard to be good at what you do, but also have management and marketing and sales skills too. Most businesses need more than just your skills. They need sales ability too.
I do OK with the sales thing right up until someone tries to wheel and deal us. Our prices are not negotiable, we are way too underpriced already for what we actually deliver.
The most significant business problems we face are ones that presently there is no solution for. If we someday wanted to sell the business someday, there is no viable group of people whoi could step in and run with it.
Our business is essentially me and what I can do. When I fall, no-one will be able to put it back together. The other shops around us that rely on me for all the tough stuff, still won't be able to handle it, in fact their dependence on us will hurt them someday when we are gone. Longer warranties serve to make our learning curve on any new vehicle system like walking off a cliff. Not to mention the tens of thousands that we spend each year now for software updates that our competition isn't spending and basically evaporates at the end of the year when the license to use the software expires and it turns off.
General Motors vs. NBC [edit]Further Information: Sidesaddle fuel tank controversy
Dateline NBC aired an investigative report on Tuesday, November 17, 1992, titled “Waiting to Explode”. The 60 minute program was about General Motors' Rounded-Line Chevrolet C/K-Series pickup trucks allegedly exploding upon impact during accidents due to the poor design of fuel tanks. Dateline's film showed a sample of a low speed accident with the fuel tank exploding. In reality, Dateline NBC producers had rigged the truck’s fuel tank with remotely controlled model rocket engines to initiate the explosion. The program did not disclose the fact that the accident was staged
Seems older model Jeeps can explode if they are in rear end collisions. I owned 2 of those Jeeps a 95 Grand Cherokee Ltd and a 2000 Cherokee. I don't know if I would buy a Chrysler considering they don't want to fix these older cars.
Do you think the recall of Jeeps should be a concern? Chrysler doesn't want to comply by recalling the exploding gas tanks. Jeep Recall
If we someday wanted to sell the business someday, there is no viable group of people whoi could step in and run with it.
I really enjoy reading your answers because it gives me a lot of insight into how an indie garage works. We have an indie garage that works on foreign cars and they have an excellent reputation. They also have a Kia dealership and they sell some nice used cars. I prefer them to the bmw dealership because they are nice and low key.
Selling a business where one person really is the business is very difficult. One method is to take some really good young guys, train them so they can be almost as good as you, and let them carry on and you take a cut. That might give them the chance to have a business of their own, and you could have a revenue stream.
I hate bean counters as their sole focus is on the tangible numbers, and not the intangible sheer joy the customer experiences when they are pampered. Who doesn't like to be pampered? I do. I provide good product and good service and I do not care for customers whose sole purpose is to find the cheapest product or service. They are never satisfied and a pain in the butt.
Selling a business where one person really is the business is very difficult. One method is to take some really good young guys, train them so they can be almost as good as you, and let them carry on and you take a cut.
The trade hasn't been able to attract the people that we need for a long, long time. Sure we can get some people, but to handle the really tough stuff we need kids who typically are headed off to engineering school, and we just don't have anything to attract them into this trade. We can't give them the wages and benefits that they can get elsewhere, plus they don't have to put up with all of the nonsense and they don't have to buy their own tools on top of everything else.
The other problem is that I don't have any employees, mainly because I don't think that I would make a very good boss. I have my reasons for that, we all have to know our limitations. I've compared our shop to the children's rhyme Humpty Dumpty many times. I will say that by keeping a sharp eye on the realities of how our shop runs I make certain decisions very carefully. I have a saying, "There is no such thing as a successful business, there are only businesses that haven't failed yet." Combine that with "The day you go into business for yourself is the very same day that you start planning for when you go out of business".
I hate bean counters as their sole focus is on the tangible numbers,
I hate bean counters too. The bean counters ruined GM the first time. They care so much about margins and cutting costs they forget, some people buy something like a car for enjoyment too, not just the lowest price.
I think that if you bring great value to your customers then you will do well, because most companies won't do that. I always say, if my customers do well and are happy, then I will be happy.
and we just don't have anything to attract them into this trade.
Just some observations at random;
* You are in a difficult field. It seems not too many young people are attracted to it, and it seems to be changing so rapidly it is hard to keep up.
*It is difficult attracting young people to work in a garage with heavy lifting, cold or hot conditions, nasty customers, overhead costs, competition including longer new car warranties.
*I agree, if you think you won't be a good boss you probably don't want to be a boss...not for everyone. Good that you know that.
*"There is no such thing as a successful business, there are only businesses that haven't failed yet." That one I think you should change. There are lots of successful businesses. Few will go on forever, but some just end naturally and the owners had a good successful run. What is success - if you are happy doing what you do and can manage financially that is success, anything more is a bonus.
One thing I learned about business is failure is a wonderful thing. I learned more from my failures than my successes. You have to fail before you can succeed. Never fear failure...if you don't fail enough you aren't trying to do enough. I love failing...it points me in the right direction to be successful....it eliminates one thing I shouldn't do again.
If you go to work each day thinking you are going to fail you are not being fair to yourself. Go into work each day thinking of new possibilities, try something different (coffee, nice lounge, advertising) and have fun,
*"The day you go into business for yourself is the very same day that you start planning for when you go out of business". Doesn't have to be that way. Try as harde as you can but have an exit strategy in case everything goes wrong. Don't get overextended, put money back into the business, find ways to find more customers...and just use a bit of your mind to be defensive...just in case.
It sounds like you do speciallized work that other garages can't do. Maybe you should have a flyer you can give to them....if they can't do certain work send their customers to you...it will keep their customers happy and save them time.
Might not apply, but you have to find how that could work for you. There are lots of possible ideas that I could think of to try. Possibly getting marketing students to study your business to come up with some ideas to expand your business. Just ideas....for a starting point!
Just watch RB hammer at anyone who isn't perfect in the performance of an assigned task and ask yourself this question. To keep RB happy as a customer can you allow a younger technician to service his car at any level? Some might think, well you just have to have a senior technician check their work. The reality is you will spend so much of the senior techs time doing that, you might just as well have simply given the job to them in the first place.
I don't have anyone else at my shop because, I'd have to take so much time away from producing myself that I'd actually have a lower GP at the end of the week, and I'd have to pay them and all of their expenses out of that GP.
The next problem that no-one seems to be accounting for is how the reduction in the work that the cars need today is having an impact on the trade. I don't condone the wallet flushing at all, but I know why its happening. There just isn't enough work to keep everyone busy and profitable. There are too many shops with entry level help trying to compete for the easiest work. One major retailer will show you their margins on tires used to be 35% it's now half of that. Plus they used to put tires on cars every 35-40K. Now it's 60-65K on average.
It sounds like you do specialized work that other garages can't do. Maybe you should have a flyer you can give to them....if they can't do certain work send their customers to you...it will keep their customers happy and save them time
That would be how Mr. Banks that I mentioned previously came to our shop. He was sent to us by another shop. I have a BMW Z3 for a camshaft sensor signal dropping out. The customer tried repairing it himself first. Then he had an indy BMW specialist work on it, then he took it to the dealer. It got three sensors installed on it only to have the code come right back in a few days. When I started checking it, I went straight to the DME and pinned in with my scope, (No body else ever opened the case and took that connector apart to test). The signal was there for about four minutes and then went high and fixed. I'm going to have to expose the harness at the cam sensor connector (major PITA for access) and pin in there to find out if we are losing the ground, or if this is one of those sneak circuits I mentioned in another post where system voltage is bleeding into the signal wire. I have to keep in mind that the sneak circuit could even be inside the DME. The fun part of that is I can prove it, but I will reach a point that I won't get to finish the repair if that is the case. The car will have to go back to the dealer for that.
As far as my two quotes. Many people go into business and they incorrectly start with the idea that if they put out a lower price than everyone else they will be busy right away and they will have so much work that they will make tons of money and they will then live happily ever after. The realities are much harsher than that so I don't candy coat the initial advice.
One thing I learned about business is failure is a wonderful thing. I learned more from my failures than my successes. You have to fail before you can succeed. Never fear failure...if you don't fail enough you aren't trying to do enough. I love failing...it points me in the right direction to be successful....it eliminates one thing I shouldn't do again
For some businesses that may have some truth to it. But let me re-introduce you to another member of this board. Roadburner. Will he let you fail and learn from it? While you check his responses and try and imagine what it would be like when a mistake occurs with one of his cars see if any comments from other posters whose demands for precision have no tolerance for failure too.
You are in a difficult field. It seems not too many young people are attracted to it, and it seems to be changing so rapidly it is hard to keep up.
Yep, and even more than that it seems that none of the other posters realize they could not live up to the demand for precision that they expect the techs to achieve. The next time one of them dials the wrong phone number, for what ever reason I hope they think of this response because they just made a mistake equal to the tech putting RB's directional tire inside out. The consequences aren't the same of course but the mental error that occurred is identical. So yea, I just said that if you ever dialed a phone number incorrectly, then given enough chances if you were mounting tires, you'd put one on inside out. There is a difference between an "Ooops" and a "mistake". It doesn't become a mistake until someone else has to tell you that something isn't right. If they made an oops, discover that the tire is inside out and then take it back off and flip it back over then they should take it easy on themselves. Then they need to try and come up with a routine to prevent them from doing that a second time. Like put a small crayon mark on the inside sidewall when first checking the tires. In practice you will find you can pick the tire up identify the outside of the tire, set it on the wheel to install, grab the lube brush lube the first side bead, and spin the tire to lube the other side and at that moment forget that it's directional and lay it down and put it on the rim. You literally have 50/50 chance that you put it on correctly, if you see your crayon mark, ooops!!
If you go to work each day thinking you are going to fail you are not being fair to yourself
This job, this career, will show you something you have never seen before in a heartbeat and you often find yourself learning something that you would have rather not learned at that moment in time. We literally have to approach every repair as if we haven't done that particular job before. Failing to do that is why techs often misdiagnose an issue and is why I feel people trying to guess answers on the web is a bad idea. Just because a P0101 was a mass air sensor on one 2005 Chevrolet Malibu, doesn't mean that the P0101 set on the next 2005 Chevrolet Malibu is a mass air sensor.
Go into work each day thinking of new possibilities, try something different (coffee, nice lounge, advertising) and have fun
Good advice, I do have fun. My shop runs in a manner that puts the customers first and to truly do that you must take care of the people directly responsible, and that's the tech(s). I'm a tech, and will always be a tech. I'm literally a shop owner by default because no owners that I know of would put everything that they needed to into the tools, the training of their people let alone the creature comforts like AC and heat. Plus since I end up being the person who talks to the customers I get the information that I need so that I can identify the reason that the car came into the shop. Many failed repair attempts come down the customer and service advisor failing to supply the information that the tech needs. I could do a whole series o
Enough for now. Class tonight, I gotta drive about 270 miles....It's an advanced diagnostic strategy class that will have the techs making mistakes as they try to figure the case study's out and hopefully learn from them and not repeat them in the shop.
. Like put a small crayon mark on the inside sidewall when first checking the tires.
You have a big day ahead so don't reply until tomorrow or so. Anyone can make a mistake like the one you described....every year there are doctors who remove the wrong limbs....now they have started marking the limb that is to be removed.
Everyone makes mistakes in their work. I was once an assisstant manager of a retail store and I had an excellent boss. He said a mistake isn't a mistake if you can fix it. If I make a mistake I overcompensate for it because I want that customer to know I am out too because of my mistake. If someone's tires are put on backwards, and the mistake is found, I would fix the problem and give the customer a coupon for a free oil change or something. Or give the customer 50% off, just something to show you take mistakes seriously.
About hiring a young assistant...you know what is best for you. When my business started to expand I wanted to do everything because I can do it better than anyone. The thing is, I couldn't do it all, so as I got other people to do the more routine work I could concentrate on expanding the business. That lead to better shipping rates as volume went up, I could buy at better prices as I became a major client.........it's all risky but without risk there is no reward.
I am not saying it is for everyone. Although you have complaints you love what you do and you are very good at it. Maybe that is right for you. In some businesses, you have to grow or die, because someone else will move in...there are a lot of sharks out there.
Just watch RB hammer at anyone who isn't perfect in the performance of an assigned task and ask yourself this question. To keep RB happy as a customer can you allow a younger technician to service his car at any level?
Funny thing; despite your continuing attempt to caricature me, I have an excellent relationship with ALL of the shops that I patronize. I've used my indie shops and BMW dealer for over a decade, and I've used my Mazda dealer ever since I bought my MS3 in July 2007. I give them perfect mail surveys and praise them to the skies if I receive a phone survey. And every time I use my tire shop I fill out a comment card and give them high marks across the board- without being asked. I also send them a LOT of referrals. Not one of those shops are "perfect"- but they ARE competent and professional. Here's an example- a conversation with my BMW Service Advisor when I went to pick up my son's X3 after an Inspection II:
Me: Were you able to get the spark plugs replaced like we discussed?
SA: Oh wow; I had that in my notes and I forgot.
Me: No big deal, I can bring it back sometime in the next few weeks.
SA: Why don't you just keep the loaner and pick the truck up tomorrow? I'll make sure the plugs get replaced.
Me: Are you sure that won't jam you up?
SA: Nah, it won't take that long.
Me: Thanks!
And every year or so I take a box of doughnuts over to the shops I regularly use. My wife has even bought small presents for the childeren of my BMW SA. So yeah, the shops I use really dread seeing me walk in the door.
But let me re-introduce you to another member of this board. Roadburner. Will he let you fail and learn from it?
Just call me Mr. Unreasonable- for expecting competent service more often than not. And how silly of me to keep forgetting that I'm not paying for service- I'm paying the tech his/her tuition. How about this? The next time I bring my car in I'll ask my SA to please make sure someone screws up while servicing my car- because I want every visit to be a learning experience! Seriously, I understand that everyone makes mistakes from time to time- what I won't tolerate are techs who don't know/don't care/don't give a d**n.
The next time one of them dials the wrong phone number, for what ever reason I hope they think of this response because they just made a mistake equal to the tech putting RB's directional tire inside out.
Really? Even though the tech didn't even realize that the tire HAD an inside and an outside? I wouldn't compare that "oops" to one of us dialling a wrong number; it would be more like one of us not knowing that phones HAD numbers. Funny thing; I run asymetric or directional tires on three of my cars and I've never had one mounted incorrectly by the tire shops I regularly patronize. That said, my BMW SA told me about an E92 M3 a customer recently brought in. A shop actually rotated the tires, even though the car comes with wider wheels and larger tires on the rear. Now they were on the front. Sorry, wrong number?
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Yep, and even more than that it seems that none of the other posters realize they could not live up to the demand for precision that they expect the techs to achieve. The next time one of them dials the wrong phone number, for what ever reason I hope they think of this response because they just made a mistake equal to the tech putting RB's directional tire inside out. The consequences aren't the same of course but the mental error that occurred is identical. So yea, I just said that if you ever dialed a phone number incorrectly, then given enough chances if you were mounting tires, you'd put one on inside out.
I'm going to disagree with you a bit here.
All mistakes aren't equal. Dialing a wrong number is far different than misreading the altimeter and flying a jetliner into the ground. Both are mistakes, but result in a big difference in outcomes.
People get distracted by all sorts of things, so I can understand how a guy could mis-mount a tire. But, that's a lot different than not knowing the tire was directional. In that circumstance, the outcome is the same, but 2 entirely different set of circumstances happened to create the same result.
The guy who doesn't know the tires are directional will continue on doing so until someone with enough knowledge points out his error, whereas the distracted fellow isn't apt to do it again, especially on the same car.
Sorry that you can only read the words on the page and not see the picture from a mile high. Your debates with me have allowed me to create two different pictures. The one that you see, and the one that needs to be explained from a shops need to grow techs that are capable of meeting your demands.
Funny thing; despite your continuing attempt to caricature me, I have an excellent relationship with ALL of the shops that I patronize
You also painted a very precise picture of a one strike and your out mentality that a lot of customers demand of us when you had the problem with your heat pump, and when you had the tire repaired/replaced down south. Now in this last response you felt a need to demonstrate your loyalty to the shops you normally patronize. Allow me to reference some of the other responses from there posters who made it quite clear that we don't own them and they are free to choose to go anywhere else, anytime they decide that a shop failed to live up to their expectations. I provoked you enough over the last few weeks to get enough reactions from both yourself as well as from other posters for people to see that I'm not making up how lofty of a standard people usually try and hold shops and techs to.
Seriously, I understand that everyone makes mistakes from time to time- what I won't tolerate are techs who don't know/don't care/don't give a d**n.
That's fine. I won't/wouldn't tolerate attitude issues that result in unsatisfactory results either. The question however is what happened to cause the attitude issue in the first place. If a business has people that have attitude issues, and they don't find out why that occurred, then the best they will ever accomplish is have one revolving door for the employee's and another one for the customers.
Really? Even though the tech didn't even realize that the tire HAD an inside and an outside?
Yep... First, if you dialed a wrong number and no-one answered, would you know that you had?
If the tech didn't know the tire was directional and that it had an inside and an outside you can punish him over it, or you can correct the problem and do something to try and make sure that it doesn't happen again. You concentrate on the tech as the sole owner of the mistake, but its really a management, technician training issue. I gave the board a routine that would add "two layers of swiss cheese" which would make the mistake less likely to occur even with a green employee. You on the other hand IMO only resort to punishing the mistake.
Simply replacing the employee only increases the chances that the mistake has to happen again for the next person to learn from it. As simple as that mistake is you keep forgetting that I say that you aren't capable of not making it yourself if you are given enough chances. How would you expect to be treated as an employee if you made that very mistake of putting a tire on inside out? BTW, Dont dodge that question this time.
I wouldn't compare that "oops" to one of us dialling a wrong number; it would be more like one of us not knowing that phones HAD numbers.
OK so you wouldn't compare it to an ooops, that doesn't make you right and nothing that you have said yet would prevent it from happening again with this or another employee. The rest of your comments are all about damning and have nothing constructive to add to the thread. Do you think the shops that you patronize can fixservice every car that's on the road in North America? (all 270,000,000+ of them)
All mistakes aren't equal. Dialing a wrong number is far different than misreading the altimeter and flying a jetliner into the ground. Both are mistakes, but result in a big difference in outcomes.
I never said all mistakes are equal, I compared accidently mis-mounting a directional tire to mis-dialing a phone. From there, you have to change the parameters from putting a tire on inside out to flying a jet aircraft big stretch if you ask me. In the first example, the training involved to mount a tire might be about five minutes, flying a jet aircraft well heck that's thousands of hours worth of training isn't it? (And sadly sometimes that isn't enough) BTW at somewhere around 20-30 hours of training in the air most student pilots get to solo and from there they start the real training by doing their cross countries. But they don't legally get to take someone else other than their instructor in the air, without their instructor going too until they get their license.
People get distracted by all sorts of things, so I can understand how a guy could mis-mount a tire. But, that's a lot different than not knowing the tire was directional
Can you see how one is just a human being doing what we all occasionally do, and the other is truly managements fault?
Sorry that you can only read the words on the page and not see the picture from a mile high.
We can't all live on your remarkably high moral and professional level...
You also painted a very precise picture of a one strike and your out mentality that a lot of customers demand of us when you had the problem with your heat pump
Let's review: Two techs. Both know the outside coil froze, but it is now thawed out. The ONLY extra data point Tech #2 possesses is that the coil had frozen twice. Tech #2 finds the problem. Again, there is that pesky definition of insanity...
and when you had the tire repaired/replaced down south.
Even I find it hard to believe that you persist in defending such a complete and total fiasco. Another review: I take my car to a tire shop to have the RF tire replaced. One of the the shop's honest professionals also decides to pop the hood, remove the oil filler cap- and leave it off. Yeah, I'm going to go out of my way to patronize a shop that creatively finds out ways to screw up things that they aren't even supposed to touch.
Now in this last response you felt a need to demonstrate your loyalty to the shops you normally patronize.
Only because you felt a need to insinuate that very few shops would want me for a customer. I would hope you have received a doughnut or two from your customers.
I provoked you enough over the last few weeks to get enough reactions from both yourself as well as from other posters for people to see that I'm not making up how lofty of a standard people usually try and hold shops and techs to.
I'd call it casual entertainment rather than provocation. And I won't speak for any one else, but I'll simply repeat that I don't expect perfection 100% of the time- but I DO demand competence.
How would you expect to be treated as an employee if you made that very mistake of putting a tire on inside out? BTW, Dont dodge that question this time.
If I already knew that the tire was asymmetrical/directional(those "OUTSIDE" and "DIRECTION" labels are a big hint), then I would expect to be fired if I screwed up more than once.
The rest of your comments are all about damning and have nothing constructive to add to the thread
May I extend my most sincere and heartfelt congratulations; I had no idea that you had been selected to serve as a moderator.
Do you think the shops that you patronize can fixservice every car that's on the road in North America? (all 270,000,000+ of them)
I fervently hope not; the quality of their service would probably take a nosedive. So those other 270,000,000+ owners are on their own; but I do wish them happy hunting...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I never said all mistakes are equal, I compared accidently mis-mounting a directional tire to mis-dialing a phone. From there, you have to change the parameters from putting a tire on inside out to flying a jet aircraft big stretch if you ask me. In the first example, the training involved to mount a tire might be about five minutes, flying a jet aircraft well heck that's thousands of hours worth of training isn't it? (And sadly sometimes that isn't enough) BTW at somewhere around 20-30 hours of training in the air most student pilots get to solo and from there they start the real training by doing their cross countries. But they don't legally get to take someone else other than their instructor in the air, without their instructor going too until they get their license.
And you stretched my point of noting that relatively simple mistakes can have dramatic and significantly different outcomes. Seems like you're doing a bit of parameter changing as well.
Can you see how one is just a human being doing what we all occasionally do, and the other is truly managements fault?
Ummm.... Wasn't that the point I was making? If I get incorrect service from a company's employee, I'm not going to blame the employee. The responsible party is the provider (company). But bad service from an employee can influence my decision to use the company for service in the future, even if I'm promised a different employee will be working on my problem in any future visit.
So, the short answer is "yes", management is responsible for what goes on in their shop. Seems like a simple-enough concept for anyone to grasp...
I've talked to a few of the gearheads inside BMW NA, and they all refer to the X vehicles as "the trucks."
I respectfully have to disagree, unless they are doing it to be funny. An X3 is really a 3 Series and an X5 is a 5 Series car...with a larger taller body. Not made to carry a ton of stuff or to tow a big trailer.
They must do it as a joke, since it is as close to a truck as you can get with a bmw. However, that is a great idea, they should make bmw trucks!
Only because you felt a need to insinuate that very few shops would want me for a customer. I would hope you have received a doughnut or two from your customers.
Awww come on now, that was funny... :P
Oh and a few thank-you's from the customers? Yea we have quite a few that go out of their way to show their appreciation.
If I already knew that the tire was asymmetrical/directional(those "OUTSIDE" and "DIRECTION" labels are a big hint), then I would expect to be fired if I screwed up more than once.
Maybe now you see the difference, I'd be looking to see why it happened and would try to find a way to use it as a learning experience first to try and prevent the error from happening again, and from there be something that could be expanded on as you eventually got to move onto more difficult challenges.
I'd be looking to see why it happened and would try to find a way to use it as a learning experience
That's using today's teaching methods. Berating someone doesn't do much good...just causes resentment. Using the "failure" to learn from accomplishes something positive.
They know this about training dogs now too. Don't get mad and punish them when they do the wrong thing. Reward and praise them when they get it right...works much better and is more humane and decent.
That's using today's teaching methods. Berating someone doesn't do much good...just causes resentment. Using the "failure" to learn from accomplishes something positive.
In practice you can tell someone over and over again to pump the brakes up after repairing them before they start the car and many learn to do that as part of a good habit. However, if they forget one time they never have to be told again and yes now the question becomes one of did anything get broken. Accidents happen, people forget things, and well timed interruptions cause some very serious errors. That BTW is the real reason customers should never be in the shop. The distraction they can cause as they simply try to talk to the tech is enough to distract a tech and force him/her to have to split their concentration and from there all kinds of mayhem can result.
I had a shop call me up one time about a Dodge Neon that was a no-start. The story went that what started out as a normal maintanence timing belt ended up with a damaged valve so on their own dime they had to send the head out, they got it back together and now it was a cranks but would not start and it was flooding so bad that fuel was dripping off of the spark plugs. After exchanging some ideas over the phone and they had pretty much investigated all of the initial ideas, they decided to tow me the car. My routine for any cranks but won't start is the same and if someone has just worked on it, the first step is to forget that anybody has touched it for any repair and treat it exactly like any other no-start.
My routine is to connect a scan tool to be ready to pull codes and check essential data. Then I check for spark from the ignition system, fuel pressure, injector pulse and fuel volatility. Another thing that I do is take a four gas sample from the tailpipe. Compression is done in several ways from performing a relative compression test with the high amps probe and a scope, to a normal manual test with a compression gage to using a pressure transducer and the scope which really helps with a running engine and would have helped on this car had I needed to go that far.
Again for the moment the main thing I do is forget what anyone else has done to the car until after I gather my basic information.
So I started by cranking the engine and I saw normal current draw from the starter, I had ignition and normal fuel pressure, and my scan data showed me that my fundemental inputs such as coolant and intake air temps and the map sensor were plausible. There were no codes setting. It was at that moment I happened to notice that there was no fuel coming out of the tailpipe in the form of measurable HC's. I pulled a plug and sure enough fuel is dripping from the plug, but nothing was coming out of the tailpipe. For an instant the thought of the exhaust being plugged was considered but quickly ruled out. The car had driven into the first shop. The only thing that made sense was that the exhaust valves weren't opening. So I pulled the valve cover off and sure enough the exhaust rocker shaft was in place, but not tightened down and torqued. So I quickly tightened it and checked the torque on all of the cam caps and both rocker shafts. Pulled all of the plugs and cleaned them and blew out the excess fuel. Got it together and held the throttle to the floor to clear the flooded engine and it fired right up, cleared out and ran fine.
Now they clearly had some issues with what should have been a routine job, and it just got worse from there. Many people would say, how could the tech make such a bone headed mistake and the answer is quite simple. A well timed interruption. The shop owner has a habit of pulling the techs off of bigger jobs to knock out a waiter oil change or tire repair. That introduces an extra chance for the tech to lose his place and believe that he completed a given step in a repair when in fact he didn't. This problem is easily prevented by adhering to a solid routine and that is the tech has the say about when he stops on one job to address another issue, and if he has to stop in the middle of an operation for any reason the job must be flagged noting exactly where he stopped. I knick-name them "Hey Dummy" flags. BTW, the "dummy" is the owner who is interrupting the tech on the big job. Once that routine was put into place, they cut the number of mistakes that were happening in the shop by some 80%. The owner hated seeing the flags on the jobs and realized that every time he saw one it suggested that a mistake could have occurred, so he now does less of the walk-in hurry up stuff.
So Doc, my minivan's lifetime mpg was 21.53 in March 2012. It crept up gradually to 21.57 when the timing belt broke this past April, then went to 21.58 for six tanks. The last 5 tanks have fallen back to 21.57.
I've burned twelve tanks in April - this on a car that didn't get filled up between 11/13/12 and 5/5/13. :shades: So most of the recent miles have been highway miles, and included a tank or so of driving through a bunch of killer hills in West Virginia last month.
Normally I'd look for 24 to 27 on the highway with this rig, and 19ish around town. This last trip I got 19 to 23.
The other wrinkle - new tires right when I hit 21.58.
My main complaint is rough running at idle on up to any speed, some "faint" surging and lots of downshifting going up hills that I'd normally ease up with little drama, maybe with a little help by turning off overdrive. Now you have to punch it to keep ahead of the trucks.
I want to tie this behavior in with the timing belt but maybe it's just a coincidence?
Comments
What about opposable thumbs? Is that also a requirement? :P
I use a Ford synthetic transmission oil( XT-M5-QS) in my Mazdaspeed and a while back I was preparing to change it. I went to the Bill Collins web site and found that the parts department page is configured so that you can send an e-mail message to the parts desk. I asked if they had the fluid in stock and gave the part number. In less than two hours I received a personalized response-NOT an auto-reply, I'll point out-advising me that they had a dozen quarts in stock.
So.....
Later that day I drop my son off at soccer practice and I drive over to Bill Collins. I tell the parts guy what I want, he types it into the inventory computer and tells me "We don't got any." I explained that I received an e-mail stating it was in stock and he replies, "That's the problem; you shoulda called instead." Grrrr...
So the next day I decided to call Oxmoor Ford(yes, I was desperate) about the synthetic transmission oil. I went to their web site and called the local number they listed- and I get the following recorded reply: "You have reached Oxmoor Ford's internet sales office. If you wish to reach the parts department press 1 now"
So I press 1 and get: "I'm sorry that is an invalid number". :mad: :mad: :mad:
I finally Google the dealership and get a number that connects me to a live receptionist. The guy in parts claims that he has eight quarts. I drove over and-wonder of wonders-they actually DID have the correct oil in stock.
I have to thank you jip, I was actually considering a Focus ST or Fiesta ST; this all reminds me that such a plan probably wouldn't end well.
At all.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
You could certainly see it that way, and I have said to myself...yes, I would rather pay $900 for a permanent fix than $450 for a temporary fix.
But, $450 for a temporary fix that lasted about a year, and was doomed to fail was way to much to pay. Therefore, that is a meaningless measuring guide.
I don't know what a plumber charges per hour. Say it's $80, then I think $200 an hour plus odds and ends, charge to get there (about 5 hours after promised or I would have lined up someone else), plus a premium for figuring it all out and doing a neat job....$400 to $500 would be fair.
Everything is relative, it is worth $900 compared to the other guys $450, but the $450 fix was probably worth about $100...he took almost 4 hours to do a repair that was doomed from the start.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
How about a commission on all the money, pain and aggravation I just saved you? :shades:
I live about 12 miles from Bill Collins Ford. They gave us a free one week car rental on my mother-in laws Mercury Mariner when I brought it in for warranty work. Extended warranty only provided for 2 days (We were going to Florida). I thought they did pretty good work work on... Lol, can't recall, though they couldn't find a brake problem I wrote about in another discussion. Brakes make a intermittent popping noise under hard braking. Someone suggested a problem with ABS.
That evening they woke me up and had me try to get out of the bed, it wasn't happening. Try as I may it wasn't just the discomfort, I simply couldn't even sit up. The nurse ended up helping me enough to sit up and then get over to a chair in the room. For the most part I heal pretty fast and on friday I went home.
Monday morning I went back to work. To do that I wrapped my mid section tightly with a large ace bandage and taped it all up. On wednesday that week I had to leave work to get the staples out. They already had me pulling an engine out of an S-10 truck for an oil leak complaint. I'll never forget the look on the doctors face when he saw me sitting there with grease stained hands in my work uniform. "What are you doing?" he asked, clearly voicing objection to me doing anything but laying in a bed somewhere. He didn't understand it didn't matter how much I was hurting, if I didn't get back to work my wife and daughter wouldn't have had anything to eat the next week. As a flat rate tech there was no such thing as sick days. I never let on to anyone else at the shop just how big of a hole they cut in me the week before.
OUCH!!!
That said, I have had two bouts with chest pains, each resulting in a grim misdiagnosis:
I first experienced pains in 2005; the MD I had at the time sent me for a nuclear treadmill test. The results showed a 75% blockage. MD gives me Nitroglycerin pills on a Thursday but-since it is Memorial Day weekend-I can't see a cardiologist until the next Tuesday. Over the next four days i almost literally walked on eggshells. On Tuesday I see the cardiologist and his first words are, "I assume you know that particular test generates a LOT of false positives." News to me- my MD sure as heck didn't tell me. Anyway, he puts me on a treadmill to get my heart rate up to a certain level- at which point they will look at things with an ultrasound scanner. The tech keeps increasing the speed and incline to get my heart rate up, and he asks if I exercise. I tell him that I run on a treadmill or ride a recumbent bike 3-4 days per week. He flat-out tells me, "Based on what I'm having to do to increase your heart rate, I can almost guarantee that you don't have any heart problems." And I didn't. My wife worked in the medical field and she was absolutely livid that my MD put me through all that, so needless to say, we changed doctors. But what REALLY p*ssed me off about the whole debacle was that it all hit the fan just as I was about to pull the trigger on a mint BMW K75S a buddy had found for me. By the time I learned that I wasn't going to be having a quadruple bypass the bike was long gone... :mad:
Fast forward 7 years; chest pains return. My current MD tells me to go to the ER. ER finds no heart issues, but they want to do some scans of my gall bladder and the surrounding area- thinking that might be my problem. Finally a somber-faced ER doctor comes in. "Mr. B, I hate to bring you bad news, but we found a spot on your liver. I'm sure your regular doctor will want to do some additional tests, but I'm really sorry."
The next day my MD's nurse calls and tells me, "Dr. D wanted me to phone you to tell you not to worry. None of your blood work shows a liver problem; he is almost certain the spot is a benign cyst, but he is scheduling an MRI to be 100% sure. And he was right of course. The chest pains turned out to be acid reflux. What a difference "bedside manner" can make- he is also a car/bike guy, with a new Shelby GT350 and GT500 in his garage as well as a Victory 8 Ball and a Factory Five Cobra.
I definitely chose the wrong profession...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
About the worst pain I can recall is a Rotor Rooter procedure they did on my urethra. Hurts just thinking about it. :sick:
Edited: "They" meaning my urologist.
Pain has been a constant companion. Between a sprained knee, fractures of a wrist, thumb, fingers (multiple times), ankle, dislocated elbow and both shoulders and a cervical spine injury (C3, C4, C5) on top of all of the normal cuts, burns and smashed fingers you just got to make yourself keep going. The worst part is you can't take the really strong pain killers. Anything that dulls your concentration will easily result in mental errors, so you just have to tough it out.
That habit of toughing it out almost killed me about three years ago. Going up a stairway to a carpet store I got a splinter from the handrail. It went into the web between the thumb and index finger of my right hand. Seeing it, I knew that I had to immeadiately pull it right back out before it started to hurt. It was almost 3/16 inch in diameter and stuck into my hand close to two inches. By that evening my hand was hurting pretty bad. The next morning it was starting to swell up. I kept expecting it to get better but by sunday morning it was clearly getting infected. That ended up being another hospital stay and some exploratory surgery and sure enough another two inches of splinter was removed from the center of the palm of my hand that was in almost to my wrist. I spent the rest of that week in the hospital on antibiotics for that one.
I personally do not accord respect to a credential on the wall, automatically.
The technician has to prove himself to me first. He can talk the best game in the world, spit polish his shop floor, show my his brand new scanner/laser blaster, but it all comes down to fixing the car correctly.....or not.
Hmmm, you'd think a guy who was that smart would realize that there is always room for more.
The productiviy that I don't lose on any one afternoon because of heat pays for the AC all month.
The winter is another story altogether. It costs as much as $800 a month to try and keep the shop in the low 60's. I can't let my hands get cold at all anymore so maintaining a minimum temperature in the shop is an absolute must.
That's THREE metaphors in one sentence Doc! :P
Thar be two more fer ya.
While we are on the subject, do you offer coffee and donuts to your customers? How about wide flat screen TV and current newspapers?
My BMW dealer used to have little muffins and apples. They have really cheaped out lately though at least they have coffee still.
The new MB dealership has a mini-putt and a hair and nail salon. You could litterally eat off the floor in their garage. I guess one will be paying extra for all of that.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Maybe you never noticed before but "Wait" is a four letter word.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Have you checked into alternative heating from the used motor oils you collect from your service jobs? An area park authority was topic of a news story a few years back about how they use it for heating their truck service building.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That dealer had a decent service department and a great parts department. Added perks won't convince me to patronize a shop with a bad service or parts department.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Are you working at full capacity? How can you get more customers? Do you actively try to get more customers? Do you use coupons or any other marketing.....sales, advertise in local paper?
My rule is most businesses lose at least 10% of their customers every year, just because of natural changes. Every business has to replace those customers and probably gain at least 10% more to grow.
It is hard to be good at what you do, but also have management and marketing and sales skills too. Most businesses need more than just your skills. They need sales ability too.
One marketing course I took used as an example, there were once two great artists, Talouse Latrec and Salvadore Dali. Lautrec made great paintings, but he wasn't a salesman, died penniless. Dali, great artist, even a better marketing genius, is very wealthy.
What do you think?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Yes.
How can you get more customers?
We get them hand delivered all the time. I picked a niche to specialize in, electronics and onboard computerized systems. Of course I still do the regular easy stuff when we get the chance but more than 60% of what we do is the most difficult issues that cars create today. I can show you that more than 50% of the work I do is something I've never seen before, and am not likely to see a second time.
Do you actively try to get more customers?
Of course to a degree. Really don't have a whole lot of room for too many unless they are coming in for the easy stuff.
Do you use coupons or any other marketing.....sales, advertise in local paper
Some, from time to time. The radio show that I do does a lot to get people in, but usually its going to be the same old story. If someone is really happy with their present shop, there is no reason for them to go somewhere else. If they aren't happy it's generally because of a technology issue where the problem is simply beyond their ability to handle due to an equipment or training gap. That goes right back to a lot of customers getting handed right to us. The problem is we get to have the nightmare and do solve them, but that doesn't usually make them a full time customer. They often only think of us again in five or six years when they experience another odd failure.
It is hard to be good at what you do, but also have management and marketing and sales skills too. Most businesses need more than just your skills. They need sales ability too.
I do OK with the sales thing right up until someone tries to wheel and deal us. Our prices are not negotiable, we are way too underpriced already for what we actually deliver.
The most significant business problems we face are ones that presently there is no solution for. If we someday wanted to sell the business someday, there is no viable group of people whoi could step in and run with it.
Our business is essentially me and what I can do. When I fall, no-one will be able to put it back together. The other shops around us that rely on me for all the tough stuff, still won't be able to handle it, in fact their dependence on us will hurt them someday when we are gone. Longer warranties serve to make our learning curve on any new vehicle system like walking off a cliff. Not to mention the tens of thousands that we spend each year now for software updates that our competition isn't spending and basically evaporates at the end of the year when the license to use the software expires and it turns off.
I'll add more later, got to run....
Dateline NBC aired an investigative report on Tuesday, November 17, 1992, titled “Waiting to Explode”. The 60 minute program was about General Motors' Rounded-Line Chevrolet C/K-Series pickup trucks allegedly exploding upon impact during accidents due to the poor design of fuel tanks. Dateline's film showed a sample of a low speed accident with the fuel tank exploding. In reality, Dateline NBC producers had rigged the truck’s fuel tank with remotely controlled model rocket engines to initiate the explosion. The program did not disclose the fact that the accident was staged
Seems older model Jeeps can explode if they are in rear end collisions. I owned 2 of those Jeeps a 95 Grand Cherokee Ltd and a 2000 Cherokee. I don't know if I would buy a Chrysler considering they don't want to fix these older cars.
Do you think the recall of Jeeps should be a concern? Chrysler doesn't want to comply by recalling the exploding gas tanks.
Jeep Recall
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I really enjoy reading your answers because it gives me a lot of insight into how an indie garage works. We have an indie garage that works on foreign cars and they have an excellent reputation. They also have a Kia dealership and they sell some nice used cars. I prefer them to the bmw dealership because they are nice and low key.
Selling a business where one person really is the business is very difficult. One method is to take some really good young guys, train them so they can be almost as good as you, and let them carry on and you take a cut.
That might give them the chance to have a business of their own, and you could have a revenue stream.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The trade hasn't been able to attract the people that we need for a long, long time. Sure we can get some people, but to handle the really tough stuff we need kids who typically are headed off to engineering school, and we just don't have anything to attract them into this trade. We can't give them the wages and benefits that they can get elsewhere, plus they don't have to put up with all of the nonsense and they don't have to buy their own tools on top of everything else.
The other problem is that I don't have any employees, mainly because I don't think that I would make a very good boss. I have my reasons for that, we all have to know our limitations. I've compared our shop to the children's rhyme Humpty Dumpty many times. I will say that by keeping a sharp eye on the realities of how our shop runs I make certain decisions very carefully. I have a saying, "There is no such thing as a successful business, there are only businesses that haven't failed yet." Combine that with "The day you go into business for yourself is the very same day that you start planning for when you go out of business".
I hate bean counters too. The bean counters ruined GM the first time. They care so much about margins and cutting costs they forget, some people buy something like a car for enjoyment too, not just the lowest price.
I think that if you bring great value to your customers then you will do well, because most companies won't do that. I always say, if my customers do well and are happy, then I will be happy.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
There is definitely an 80/20 rule, how does it apply in chikoos case?
20% of your customers will make up 80% of your sales...that is an absolute rule of business.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Just some observations at random;
* You are in a difficult field. It seems not too many young people are attracted to it, and it seems to be changing so rapidly it is hard to keep up.
*It is difficult attracting young people to work in a garage with heavy lifting, cold or hot conditions, nasty customers, overhead costs, competition including longer new car warranties.
*I agree, if you think you won't be a good boss you probably don't want to be a boss...not for everyone. Good that you know that.
*"There is no such thing as a successful business, there are only businesses that haven't failed yet." That one I think you should change. There are lots of successful businesses. Few will go on forever, but some just end naturally and the owners had a good successful run. What is success - if you are happy doing what you do and can manage financially that is success, anything more is a bonus.
One thing I learned about business is failure is a wonderful thing. I learned more from my failures than my successes. You have to fail before you can succeed. Never fear failure...if you don't fail enough you aren't trying to do enough. I love failing...it points me in the right direction to be successful....it eliminates one thing I shouldn't do again.
If you go to work each day thinking you are going to fail you are not being fair to yourself. Go into work each day thinking of new possibilities, try something different (coffee, nice lounge, advertising) and have fun,
*"The day you go into business for yourself is the very same day that you start planning for when you go out of business". Doesn't have to be that way. Try as harde as you can but have an exit strategy in case everything goes wrong. Don't get overextended, put money back into the business, find ways to find more customers...and just use a bit of your mind to be defensive...just in case.
It sounds like you do speciallized work that other garages can't do. Maybe you should have a flyer you can give to them....if they can't do certain work send their customers to you...it will keep their customers happy and save them time.
Might not apply, but you have to find how that could work for you.
There are lots of possible ideas that I could think of to try. Possibly getting marketing students to study your business to come up with some ideas to expand your business. Just ideas....for a starting point!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I don't have anyone else at my shop because, I'd have to take so much time away from producing myself that I'd actually have a lower GP at the end of the week, and I'd have to pay them and all of their expenses out of that GP.
The next problem that no-one seems to be accounting for is how the reduction in the work that the cars need today is having an impact on the trade. I don't condone the wallet flushing at all, but I know why its happening. There just isn't enough work to keep everyone busy and profitable. There are too many shops with entry level help trying to compete for the easiest work. One major retailer will show you their margins on tires used to be 35% it's now half of that. Plus they used to put tires on cars every 35-40K. Now it's 60-65K on average.
It sounds like you do specialized work that other garages can't do. Maybe you should have a flyer you can give to them....if they can't do certain work send their customers to you...it will keep their customers happy and save them time
That would be how Mr. Banks that I mentioned previously came to our shop. He was sent to us by another shop. I have a BMW Z3 for a camshaft sensor signal dropping out. The customer tried repairing it himself first. Then he had an indy BMW specialist work on it, then he took it to the dealer. It got three sensors installed on it only to have the code come right back in a few days. When I started checking it, I went straight to the DME and pinned in with my scope, (No body else ever opened the case and took that connector apart to test). The signal was there for about four minutes and then went high and fixed. I'm going to have to expose the harness at the cam sensor connector (major PITA for access) and pin in there to find out if we are losing the ground, or if this is one of those sneak circuits I mentioned in another post where system voltage is bleeding into the signal wire. I have to keep in mind that the sneak circuit could even be inside the DME. The fun part of that is I can prove it, but I will reach a point that I won't get to finish the repair if that is the case. The car will have to go back to the dealer for that.
As far as my two quotes. Many people go into business and they incorrectly start with the idea that if they put out a lower price than everyone else they will be busy right away and they will have so much work that they will make tons of money and they will then live happily ever after. The realities are much harsher than that so I don't candy coat the initial advice.
One thing I learned about business is failure is a wonderful thing. I learned more from my failures than my successes. You have to fail before you can succeed. Never fear failure...if you don't fail enough you aren't trying to do enough. I love failing...it points me in the right direction to be successful....it eliminates one thing I shouldn't do again
For some businesses that may have some truth to it. But let me re-introduce you to another member of this board. Roadburner. Will he let you fail and learn from it? While you check his responses and try and imagine what it would be like when a mistake occurs with one of his cars see if any comments from other posters whose demands for precision have no tolerance for failure too.
You are in a difficult field. It seems not too many young people are attracted to it, and it seems to be changing so rapidly it is hard to keep up.
Yep, and even more than that it seems that none of the other posters realize they could not live up to the demand for precision that they expect the techs to achieve. The next time one of them dials the wrong phone number, for what ever reason I hope they think of this response because they just made a mistake equal to the tech putting RB's directional tire inside out. The consequences aren't the same of course but the mental error that occurred is identical. So yea, I just said that if you ever dialed a phone number incorrectly, then given enough chances if you were mounting tires, you'd put one on inside out. There is a difference between an "Ooops" and a "mistake". It doesn't become a mistake until someone else has to tell you that something isn't right. If they made an oops, discover that the tire is inside out and then take it back off and flip it back over then they should take it easy on themselves. Then they need to try and come up with a routine to prevent them from doing that a second time. Like put a small crayon mark on the inside sidewall when first checking the tires. In practice you will find you can pick the tire up identify the outside of the tire, set it on the wheel to install, grab the lube brush lube the first side bead, and spin the tire to lube the other side and at that moment forget that it's directional and lay it down and put it on the rim. You literally have 50/50 chance that you put it on correctly, if you see your crayon mark, ooops!!
If you go to work each day thinking you are going to fail you are not being fair to yourself
This job, this career, will show you something you have never seen before in a heartbeat and you often find yourself learning something that you would have rather not learned at that moment in time. We literally have to approach every repair as if we haven't done that particular job before. Failing to do that is why techs often misdiagnose an issue and is why I feel people trying to guess answers on the web is a bad idea. Just because a P0101 was a mass air sensor on one 2005 Chevrolet Malibu, doesn't mean that the P0101 set on the next 2005 Chevrolet Malibu is a mass air sensor.
Go into work each day thinking of new possibilities, try something different (coffee, nice lounge, advertising) and have fun
Good advice, I do have fun. My shop runs in a manner that puts the customers first and to truly do that you must take care of the people directly responsible, and that's the tech(s). I'm a tech, and will always be a tech. I'm literally a shop owner by default because no owners that I know of would put everything that they needed to into the tools, the training of their people let alone the creature comforts like AC and heat. Plus since I end up being the person who talks to the customers I get the information that I need so that I can identify the reason that the car came into the shop. Many failed repair attempts come down the customer and service advisor failing to supply the information that the tech needs. I could do a whole series o
I could do a whole series of posts on that.
Enough for now. Class tonight, I gotta drive about 270 miles....It's an advanced diagnostic strategy class that will have the techs making mistakes as they try to figure the case study's out and hopefully learn from them and not repeat them in the shop.
You have a big day ahead so don't reply until tomorrow or so. Anyone can make a mistake like the one you described....every year there are doctors who remove the wrong limbs....now they have started marking the limb that is to be removed.
Everyone makes mistakes in their work. I was once an assisstant manager of a retail store and I had an excellent boss. He said a mistake isn't a mistake if you can fix it. If I make a mistake I overcompensate for it because I want that customer to know I am out too because of my mistake.
If someone's tires are put on backwards, and the mistake is found, I would fix the problem and give the customer a coupon for a free oil change or something. Or give the customer 50% off, just something to show you take mistakes seriously.
About hiring a young assistant...you know what is best for you. When my business started to expand I wanted to do everything because I can do it better than anyone. The thing is, I couldn't do it all, so as I got other people to do the more routine work I could concentrate on expanding the business. That lead to better shipping rates as volume went up, I could buy at better prices as I became a major client.........it's all risky but without risk there is no reward.
I am not saying it is for everyone. Although you have complaints you love what you do and you are very good at it. Maybe that is right for you. In some businesses, you have to grow or die, because someone else will move in...there are a lot of sharks out there.
Have a good day and check in tomorrow.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Funny thing; despite your continuing attempt to caricature me, I have an excellent relationship with ALL of the shops that I patronize. I've used my indie shops and BMW dealer for over a decade, and I've used my Mazda dealer ever since I bought my MS3 in July 2007. I give them perfect mail surveys and praise them to the skies if I receive a phone survey. And every time I use my tire shop I fill out a comment card and give them high marks across the board- without being asked. I also send them a LOT of referrals. Not one of those shops are "perfect"- but they ARE competent and professional. Here's an example- a conversation with my BMW Service Advisor when I went to pick up my son's X3 after an Inspection II:
Me: Were you able to get the spark plugs replaced like we discussed?
SA: Oh wow; I had that in my notes and I forgot.
Me: No big deal, I can bring it back sometime in the next few weeks.
SA: Why don't you just keep the loaner and pick the truck up tomorrow? I'll make sure the plugs get replaced.
Me: Are you sure that won't jam you up?
SA: Nah, it won't take that long.
Me: Thanks!
And every year or so I take a box of doughnuts over to the shops I regularly use. My wife has even bought small presents for the childeren of my BMW SA.
So yeah, the shops I use really dread seeing me walk in the door.
But let me re-introduce you to another member of this board. Roadburner. Will he let you fail and learn from it?
Just call me Mr. Unreasonable- for expecting competent service more often than not. And how silly of me to keep forgetting that I'm not paying for service- I'm paying the tech his/her tuition. How about this? The next time I bring my car in I'll ask my SA to please make sure someone screws up while servicing my car- because I want every visit to be a learning experience! Seriously, I understand that everyone makes mistakes from time to time- what I won't tolerate are techs who don't know/don't care/don't give a d**n.
The next time one of them dials the wrong phone number, for what ever reason I hope they think of this response because they just made a mistake equal to the tech putting RB's directional tire inside out.
Really? Even though the tech didn't even realize that the tire HAD an inside and an outside? I wouldn't compare that "oops" to one of us dialling a wrong number; it would be more like one of us not knowing that phones HAD numbers. Funny thing; I run asymetric or directional tires on three of my cars and I've never had one mounted incorrectly by the tire shops I regularly patronize. That said, my BMW SA told me about an E92 M3 a customer recently brought in. A shop actually rotated the tires, even though the car comes with wider wheels and larger tires on the rear. Now they were on the front.
Sorry, wrong number?
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I'm going to disagree with you a bit here.
All mistakes aren't equal. Dialing a wrong number is far different than misreading the altimeter and flying a jetliner into the ground. Both are mistakes, but result in a big difference in outcomes.
People get distracted by all sorts of things, so I can understand how a guy could mis-mount a tire. But, that's a lot different than not knowing the tire was directional. In that circumstance, the outcome is the same, but 2 entirely different set of circumstances happened to create the same result.
The guy who doesn't know the tires are directional will continue on doing so until someone with enough knowledge points out his error, whereas the distracted fellow isn't apt to do it again, especially on the same car.
Funny thing; despite your continuing attempt to caricature me, I have an excellent relationship with ALL of the shops that I patronize
You also painted a very precise picture of a one strike and your out mentality that a lot of customers demand of us when you had the problem with your heat pump, and when you had the tire repaired/replaced down south. Now in this last response you felt a need to demonstrate your loyalty to the shops you normally patronize. Allow me to reference some of the other responses from there posters who made it quite clear that we don't own them and they are free to choose to go anywhere else, anytime they decide that a shop failed to live up to their expectations. I provoked you enough over the last few weeks to get enough reactions from both yourself as well as from other posters for people to see that I'm not making up how lofty of a standard people usually try and hold shops and techs to.
Seriously, I understand that everyone makes mistakes from time to time- what I won't tolerate are techs who don't know/don't care/don't give a d**n.
That's fine. I won't/wouldn't tolerate attitude issues that result in unsatisfactory results either. The question however is what happened to cause the attitude issue in the first place. If a business has people that have attitude issues, and they don't find out why that occurred, then the best they will ever accomplish is have one revolving door for the employee's and another one for the customers.
Really? Even though the tech didn't even realize that the tire HAD an inside and an outside?
Yep... First, if you dialed a wrong number and no-one answered, would you know that you had?
If the tech didn't know the tire was directional and that it had an inside and an outside you can punish him over it, or you can correct the problem and do something to try and make sure that it doesn't happen again. You concentrate on the tech as the sole owner of the mistake, but its really a management, technician training issue. I gave the board a routine that would add "two layers of swiss cheese" which would make the mistake less likely to occur even with a green employee. You on the other hand IMO only resort to punishing the mistake.
Simply replacing the employee only increases the chances that the mistake has to happen again for the next person to learn from it. As simple as that mistake is you keep forgetting that I say that you aren't capable of not making it yourself if you are given enough chances. How would you expect to be treated as an employee if you made that very mistake of putting a tire on inside out? BTW, Dont dodge that question this time.
I wouldn't compare that "oops" to one of us dialling a wrong number; it would be more like one of us not knowing that phones HAD numbers.
OK so you wouldn't compare it to an ooops, that doesn't make you right and nothing that you have said yet would prevent it from happening again with this or another employee. The rest of your comments are all about damning and have nothing constructive to add to the thread. Do you think the shops that you patronize can
fixservice every car that's on the road in North America? (all 270,000,000+ of them)All mistakes aren't equal. Dialing a wrong number is far different than misreading the altimeter and flying a jetliner into the ground. Both are mistakes, but result in a big difference in outcomes.
I never said all mistakes are equal, I compared accidently mis-mounting a directional tire to mis-dialing a phone. From there, you have to change the parameters from putting a tire on inside out to flying a jet aircraft big stretch if you ask me. In the first example, the training involved to mount a tire might be about five minutes, flying a jet aircraft well heck that's thousands of hours worth of training isn't it? (And sadly sometimes that isn't enough) BTW at somewhere around 20-30 hours of training in the air most student pilots get to solo and from there they start the real training by doing their cross countries. But they don't legally get to take someone else other than their instructor in the air, without their instructor going too until they get their license.
People get distracted by all sorts of things, so I can understand how a guy could mis-mount a tire. But, that's a lot different than not knowing the tire was directional
Can you see how one is just a human being doing what we all occasionally do, and the other is truly managements fault?
I'd be pretty upset too RB at that SA calling my $50K X3 a truck! He should have said SUV or even better SAV, right?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
We can't all live on your remarkably high moral and professional level...
You also painted a very precise picture of a one strike and your out mentality that a lot of customers demand of us when you had the problem with your heat pump
Let's review: Two techs. Both know the outside coil froze, but it is now thawed out. The ONLY extra data point Tech #2 possesses is that the coil had frozen twice. Tech #2 finds the problem. Again, there is that pesky definition of insanity...
and when you had the tire repaired/replaced down south.
Even I find it hard to believe that you persist in defending such a complete and total fiasco. Another review: I take my car to a tire shop to have the RF tire replaced. One of the the shop's honest professionals also decides to pop the hood, remove the oil filler cap- and leave it off.
Yeah, I'm going to go out of my way to patronize a shop that creatively finds out ways to screw up things that they aren't even supposed to touch.
Now in this last response you felt a need to demonstrate your loyalty to the shops you normally patronize.
Only because you felt a need to insinuate that very few shops would want me for a customer. I would hope you have received a doughnut or two from your customers.
I provoked you enough over the last few weeks to get enough reactions from both yourself as well as from other posters for people to see that I'm not making up how lofty of a standard people usually try and hold shops and techs to.
I'd call it casual entertainment rather than provocation. And I won't speak for any one else, but I'll simply repeat that I don't expect perfection 100% of the time- but I DO demand competence.
How would you expect to be treated as an employee if you made that very mistake of putting a tire on inside out? BTW, Dont dodge that question this time.
If I already knew that the tire was asymmetrical/directional(those "OUTSIDE" and "DIRECTION" labels are a big hint), then I would expect to be fired if I screwed up more than once.
The rest of your comments are all about damning and have nothing constructive to add to the thread
May I extend my most sincere and heartfelt congratulations; I had no idea that you had been selected to serve as a moderator.
Do you think the shops that you patronize can
fixservice every car that's on the road in North America? (all 270,000,000+ of them)I fervently hope not; the quality of their service would probably take a nosedive.
So those other 270,000,000+ owners are on their own; but I do wish them happy hunting...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
The truth is, it IS a truck. I've talked to a few of the gearheads inside BMW NA, and they all refer to the X vehicles as "the trucks."
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
And you stretched my point of noting that relatively simple mistakes can have dramatic and significantly different outcomes. Seems like you're doing a bit of parameter changing as well.
Can you see how one is just a human being doing what we all occasionally do, and the other is truly managements fault?
Ummm.... Wasn't that the point I was making? If I get incorrect service from a company's employee, I'm not going to blame the employee. The responsible party is the provider (company). But bad service from an employee can influence my decision to use the company for service in the future, even if I'm promised a different employee will be working on my problem in any future visit.
So, the short answer is "yes", management is responsible for what goes on in their shop. Seems like a simple-enough concept for anyone to grasp...
I respectfully have to disagree, unless they are doing it to be funny. An X3 is really a 3 Series and an X5 is a 5 Series car...with a larger taller body. Not made to carry a ton of stuff or to tow a big trailer.
They must do it as a joke, since it is as close to a truck as you can get with a bmw. However, that is a great idea, they should make bmw trucks!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Awww come on now, that was funny... :P
Oh and a few thank-you's from the customers? Yea we have quite a few that go out of their way to show their appreciation.
If I already knew that the tire was asymmetrical/directional(those "OUTSIDE" and "DIRECTION" labels are a big hint), then I would expect to be fired if I screwed up more than once.
Maybe now you see the difference, I'd be looking to see why it happened and would try to find a way to use it as a learning experience first to try and prevent the error from happening again, and from there be something that could be expanded on as you eventually got to move onto more difficult challenges.
That's using today's teaching methods. Berating someone doesn't do much good...just causes resentment. Using the "failure" to learn from accomplishes something positive.
They know this about training dogs now too. Don't get mad and punish them when they do the wrong thing. Reward and praise them when they get it right...works much better and is more humane and decent.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
In practice you can tell someone over and over again to pump the brakes up after repairing them before they start the car and many learn to do that as part of a good habit. However, if they forget one time they never have to be told again and yes now the question becomes one of did anything get broken. Accidents happen, people forget things, and well timed interruptions cause some very serious errors. That BTW is the real reason customers should never be in the shop. The distraction they can cause as they simply try to talk to the tech is enough to distract a tech and force him/her to have to split their concentration and from there all kinds of mayhem can result.
I had a shop call me up one time about a Dodge Neon that was a no-start. The story went that what started out as a normal maintanence timing belt ended up with a damaged valve so on their own dime they had to send the head out, they got it back together and now it was a cranks but would not start and it was flooding so bad that fuel was dripping off of the spark plugs. After exchanging some ideas over the phone and they had pretty much investigated all of the initial ideas, they decided to tow me the car. My routine for any cranks but won't start is the same and if someone has just worked on it, the first step is to forget that anybody has touched it for any repair and treat it exactly like any other no-start.
My routine is to connect a scan tool to be ready to pull codes and check essential data. Then I check for spark from the ignition system, fuel pressure, injector pulse and fuel volatility. Another thing that I do is take a four gas sample from the tailpipe. Compression is done in several ways from performing a relative compression test with the high amps probe and a scope, to a normal manual test with a compression gage to using a pressure transducer and the scope which really helps with a running engine and would have helped on this car had I needed to go that far.
Again for the moment the main thing I do is forget what anyone else has done to the car until after I gather my basic information.
So I started by cranking the engine and I saw normal current draw from the starter, I had ignition and normal fuel pressure, and my scan data showed me that my fundemental inputs such as coolant and intake air temps and the map sensor were plausible. There were no codes setting. It was at that moment I happened to notice that there was no fuel coming out of the tailpipe in the form of measurable HC's. I pulled a plug and sure enough fuel is dripping from the plug, but nothing was coming out of the tailpipe. For an instant the thought of the exhaust being plugged was considered but quickly ruled out. The car had driven into the first shop. The only thing that made sense was that the exhaust valves weren't opening. So I pulled the valve cover off and sure enough the exhaust rocker shaft was in place, but not tightened down and torqued. So I quickly tightened it and checked the torque on all of the cam caps and both rocker shafts. Pulled all of the plugs and cleaned them and blew out the excess fuel. Got it together and held the throttle to the floor to clear the flooded engine and it fired right up, cleared out and ran fine.
Now they clearly had some issues with what should have been a routine job, and it just got worse from there. Many people would say, how could the tech make such a bone headed mistake and the answer is quite simple. A well timed interruption. The shop owner has a habit of pulling the techs off of bigger jobs to knock out a waiter oil change or tire repair. That introduces an extra chance for the tech to lose his place and believe that he completed a given step in a repair when in fact he didn't. This problem is easily prevented by adhering to a solid routine and that is the tech has the say about when he stops on one job to address another issue, and if he has to stop in the middle of an operation for any reason the job must be flagged noting exactly where he stopped. I knick-name them "Hey Dummy" flags. BTW, the "dummy" is the owner who is interrupting the tech on the big job. Once that routine was put into place, they cut the number of mistakes that were happening in the shop by some 80%. The owner hated seeing the flags on the jobs and realized that every time he saw one it suggested that a mistake could have occurred, so he now does less of the walk-in hurry up stuff.
I've burned twelve tanks in April - this on a car that didn't get filled up between 11/13/12 and 5/5/13. :shades: So most of the recent miles have been highway miles, and included a tank or so of driving through a bunch of killer hills in West Virginia last month.
Normally I'd look for 24 to 27 on the highway with this rig, and 19ish around town. This last trip I got 19 to 23.
The other wrinkle - new tires right when I hit 21.58.
My main complaint is rough running at idle on up to any speed, some "faint" surging and lots of downshifting going up hills that I'd normally ease up with little drama, maybe with a little help by turning off overdrive. Now you have to punch it to keep ahead of the trucks.
I want to tie this behavior in with the timing belt but maybe it's just a coincidence?