At least when I screw up I admit it and take responsibility. I don't ask or expect someone else to make excuses or to shoot the messenger.
That said, I do sympathize with you; if I unquestioningly defended every slow-witted, careless, lazy, or otherwise incompetent attorney and/or judge I wouldn't have time to eat or sleep. You must be equally as busy- if not more so.
I know I'm unreasonable in that I expect shops to know at least as much about my vehicles and/or their products as I do, but that's the way it is.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Second, the English language allows a lot of vagaries and interpretations to occur. It is really not the best mechanism for formally trying to convey ideas.
Yes and no.. If...and I do mean IF..both people have an above average command of English, then to my knowledge there is simply not a more descriptive, more exacting and thorough form of extensive and communicative language on the planet.
It is amazing how different people can interpret differently the same sentence or paragraph. It's not unusual for an exchange to go something like this:
Very true, but this usually happens between the sexes. I would say in...ok...let's say in 100% of the time, haha.. (unless she has an exceptionally high level of testosterone coursing through her veins).. :shades:
Talking about this BMW rolling...funny...I didn't even go to see the video..but I thought to myself, I'll betcha it is one of those many many cases of why people who drive autos (and sticks FTM) should ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS use the parking brake, and that the thing was parked on an icy hill. So preventable...but nooooo...some [non-permissible content removed] has to make a big tuh-du over it. I'm reminded of the little ignorant jerk Jackson Proscoe, on Global News up here..little barf always trying to make himself look like he has something to report..
So also on this parking pawl chat, and women literally hearing something totally different than what is said by a man...a couple years ago or so, I was trying to explain to a woman who had trouble with her Hyundai transmission, and why she should always use the parking brake even when trans is in Park. I explained about the whole thing about potential shear situations if someone bumps her in the Walmart parking etc etc (and that type of force would exceed even parking on severe grade) and the whole thing about the forces on the end of pawl when being pulled out of Park all the time if she lived on a steep hill and did it every time etc etc etc ...
Haha, well you should have seen the strip she ripped off me...she went up one side of me and down the other, lololol
Sometimes a guy just can't win, no matter how well intentioned he is..
until you officially make a retraction for your ridiculous claims about the loose oil cap, given the details we knew at the time, your credibility will always be questioned more than a little by some here I think.
I'll take a guess at his answer:
A tech is never wrong AND Roadburner is always lying.
Simple, no?
Perhaps I should have embellished the tire mounting story and and said that I discovered the tires were mounted wrong a couple of days later- then I'll bet the explanation would have been:
"The tires were almost certainly mounted correctly- what happened is that you took some curves at too high a speed and that turned the tires inside out."
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Second, the English language allows a lot of vagaries and interpretations to occur. It is really not the best mechanism for formally trying to convey ideas.
Yes and no.. If...and I do mean IF..both people have an above average command of English, then to my knowledge there is simply not a more descriptive, more exacting and thorough form of extensive and communicative language on the planet.
They're not going to pay to inspect every single engine when something goes wrong. That's crazy.
Not every customer will insist. Not every customer would think Hyundai should be liable for the failed engine (many would know deep down that they had abused and neglected the car and wouldn't give a claim denial a second thought).
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
But...do you REALLY think a 1/64th shim would make the SLIGHTEST twit of a difference in doing an alignment??
Yes they made a difference !.
There are a number of things you may be aware of that I had something to do with. Do you recall when techs started tying the alignment heads to the wheel with bungie straps? Today it's common, but that started with me because I had a wheel that the heads just wouldn't stay on and knew that if a head fell and broke we were expected to pay for it. It just didn't make any sense to risk my paycheck when the solution was sitting in the top of my tool box.
About a month later the Hunter guy came in to do a calibration and his first reaction was, "what the heck is that doing there"? It spread across the country from then on.
1/10th of a degree will matter?? Not buying that!
That's your prerogative.
Still, you would be my man to do the job! That's the opposite of setting the toe and letting it go!
That's nice of you to say, but I'm just a mechanic and not perfect. You should have RB do all of your work for now on.
I find it's better to look for those products that have built a reputation for reliability, than depend on a company's promises to fix their crappy product when it breaks.
Times 100! X 100!!
Also, look for quality over cheapness. Better to buy something that doesn't need warranty work (even if provided without jumping through 20 hoops).
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I'm in a different business than you. As a technical support person, software, I can appreciate your POV, and don't have the added pressure of owning the business on top of that. One side of the organization preaches best practices and quality, another side, speed is everything.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
. Simply blaming the park mechanism or the transmission without proof at this point is the easiest way to get it wrong
Makes sense. Thanks for the interpretation....I took what they were saying at face value and just thought the car had to have broken away and was sliding down the hill because of a mechanical malfunction.
This is a home HVAC repair story, but I believe that it's applicable to this discussion...
For several years I had used a local heating and cooling shop for annual inspections and repairs; after a few years almost all the experienced techs that I knew had left. I began to hear a few complaints about the shop but I had not experienced any problems and continued to use them. One winter day the heat pump wasn't working. I checked the outside unit and found the coil to be completely frozen. I called the shop and the next day they sent out a very young tech. He checked the freon level and inlet and outlet temps and announced he couldn't find anything wrong, and to call if it happened again. Well, it was obvious something was wrong, and the coil froze again within a day or two.
I called a residential contractor friend and he also said that my shop had gone downhill and suggested another small shop where the tech's wife runs the office. I called that shop and explained what was going on. His wife immediately said, "It sounds like you have a bad defrost timer board." The next day the tech came over, verified the problem, and replaced the board. Since that time I have been loyal to that shop. He has provided prompt service and we finally had him install a new system last year. Note that he did not recommend replacing my 25 year old unit until the interior coil finally failed; at that point he was of the opinion that it wasn't worth replacing it since the other components were likely to start failing as well. As far as cost goes, he charges about the same as my prior shop.
Now, note that I have never bad-mouthed the old shop, but I no longer recommend it, instead telling people about the shop I now use.
Would anyone have called the original shop for a do-over? I probably would have if some of the old techs were still there, and I would have specifically asked for one of them. Then there was the time factor- at the time I was working full time and my wife was part time and I didn't want to accommodate and pay for another wasted trip.
Does anyone think that they have a duty to tell the prior shop why you are no longer using them? I would have only if they had called to ask why a customer of nearly two decades quit using them- but they never did. I didn't blame the tech as much as I blamed the shop- they sent out a new tech without the proper diagnostic skills or experienced backup.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
When I hear stories like that I figure the shop got sold and the new owners can't maintain quality on the receipts coming in. When new owners have trouble making their note payments they let other stuff slide, like employee pay, tools and training. The old owners probably had their overhead under control and could afford to provide quality service.
Same question - my van isn't "right" after replacing the timing belt 3 weeks ago. I'm going in for a call-back in a week. Assuming it's the belt and not something else causing the hesitation and rough idle, is the fix a freebie?
When I hear stories like that I figure the shop got sold and the new owners can't maintain quality on the receipts coming in.
I always watch for that too! The original owner started with nothing and built his business up, he doesn't have the overhead of creating the business. The new owners have $Xs to pay out every month to pay for the business. It usually makes a difference.
Assuming it's the belt and not something else causing the hesitation and rough idle, is the fix a freebie?
I am sure....they will make sure, it will be something else.
I have a problem. The probem is in trying to decide if I should even bother with a full response. You and I see two different worlds. In your world, everyone else is incompetent, and maybe you and they don't know it yet but even your new AC repair company is going to fail at some point and simply get themselves added to your list of NFG's.
My world is one where when something goes wrong, the most important thing is to deal with it, and learn from it. Blame doesn't let either of the things that are important to me occur so it isn't part of my picture. Even now, some will take this as if I'm laying the blame on you for the majority of your dissatisfactions when really I'm only looking for the scientific explanations for what occurred each time. My world is about seeing how and why a failure occurs so that maybe it can be avoided in the future. When ever something went wrong I would be beating myself up a whole lot worse over it than most would ever imagine, the last thing anyone ever needed to do was to start piling on.
I wrote an article of my own a number of years ago about how management needs to work on solving problems and just not blaming people for them only to have someone turn around and refer me to that work. My ideas fell exactly inline with the Swiss Cheese model even though I'd never heard of it. One of the key points that I made with my article is how a top technician quite often is the one thing that ultimately prevents or is simply only the last piece of the failure chain when something goes wrong in the shop. Now if and when a problem occurs if everyone really stopped and truly examined the event they would likely realize there were a number of other chances to prevent the mistake but they all got overlooked too. The point that I had to use was that ultimately the mistakes get blamed on the techs by people too shallow to admit that at some point they contributed to it occurring in some fashion.
For your part you will never understand the world that I see. That's why to me the second AC company who guessed on the phone about a defrost control made a significant mistake, and just happened to get away with it. Your first AC tech met all of the demands of honesty , integrity and professionalism and when the system simply didn't act up for him he didn't SWAG it. That takes discipline, and pride in one's workmanship and I'm not surprised that you found fault with him over it. You see in the Swiss Cheese model, management is capable of creating a single hole through every level of the cheese and causing an error even when none would have ever existed. You in effect took managements place when you didn't (don't) have the knowledge and experience through which you would have earned that position. So you make the event into a mistake worthy of blame.
FWIW, I suspect you turned the system off when you realized that there was a problem, not that there is anything wrong with that. I would consider that a perfectly natural thing for anyone to do. The problem is semi conductor devices do what they darn well please at times and can act up one moment and turn around and work fine for a while after they have been turned off and then back on. Then given time, they fail again. That's why we call a lot of vehicle problems "Random Failures" and they can be the most difficult of all problems to solve. When something is broken, and it stays broken that's easy. When something is broken once in a while and someone guesses, the only way you know for sure what the result of the repair attempt was is on the day that it finally acts up again. A good guess actually leaves a vehicle owner wondering if today will be the day that they find out the car wasn't really fixed by replacing the XXXXXX.
So that's pretty much it. In my shop I solve some of the most difficult electronic puzzles that today's cars ever present. That only happens by having a good plan, that is in fact sharpened by all of the times something didn't work out at some time in my career. When things went wrong, I studied the situation until I could figure out why the failure occured and how to prevent it in the future, which usually is done by developing and following a routine. Your AC issue would be childs play for me IMO while it was acting up and sometimes I have to remind myself how lucky I am to be a tech. Now if only people were as easy to fix as machines are....
That's why to me the second AC company who guessed on the phone about a defrost control made a significant mistake, and just happened to get away with it. Your first AC tech met all of the demands of honesty, integrity and professionalism and when the system simply didn't act up for him he didn't SWAG it.
At first I honestly thought you were joking; the shop that diagnosed the system fault correctly made "a significant mistake" while the shop that missed the call completely "met all of the demands of honesty, integrity and professionalism." But then I realized that you were serious. Wow.
In your world, everyone else is incompetent
In your world, every tech is a pro, and people who complain about idiotic screw-ups are at fault( Hilton Head Tire Kingdom, anyone?). You conveniently forget that I have praised the dealers and indie shops that I use. They know their stuff and perform quality work. That said, I don't suffer fools gladly. An infrequent mistake is understandable, but I won't tolerate lazy or incompetent techs.
That said, I will definitely look up one of your "honest professionals" the next time I need some technical work done; I'll feel much better paying them my hard-earned money just to know integrity is at work- actually fixing the problem is a minor detail that I don't need to be concerned about...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
A few posts ago people were intrigued about stings. Your random AC issue would have served as a fine example of how someone could set one up and see who they could trap. The tech who didn't try to sell anything when the system was working again would get the "gold star", while the shop that swagged it without even seeing it would have gotten the TV camera shoved in their face asking them why they did that. Think about that for a while.
sounds like the 2nd shop did exactly what you would want them to (and what you probably would have done).
presented with a condition, they had the experience to know what the most likely problem was. But they came out and did the proper diagnostics to verify what it was.
If you were in the situation of the 1st guy, and the problem was not manifesting itself at the moment, would you assume there really was no problem, or do some checking to find out the root cause?
Why do you have to mis-state the situation to create your poll? You gave a shop one chance and the system was performing correctly at that point in time and they didn't try and sell you something that they couldn't prove that you needed.
Make your poll if that was an honerable way to operate their business or not.
sounds like the 2nd shop did exactly what you would want them to (and what you probably would have done).
Lets play "what if". What if they had sold the part and this time it didn't solve the problem? iirc. they swagged it right from the phone call.
presented with a condition, they had the experience to know what the most likely problem was. But they came out and did the proper diagnostics to verify what it was.
Keep in mind the circumstances between the diagnostic attempts between the two shops were not the same. I've seen many times were previous attempts to repair a problem failed simply because they tried to fix it without the problem present. Then the last person in simply "pulls the lucky straw" and the problem is occurring for him and solving it is easy.
If you were in the situation of the 1st guy, and the problem was not manifesting itself at the moment, would you assume there really was no problem, or do some checking to find out the root cause?
You do a reasonable amount of checking, but if its not broke, you can't fix it. I routinely beat problems like this on cars with two things, patience and experience. That's the way tech jobs are supposed to be done.
I'll feel much better paying them my hard-earned money
Let's just be sure that everyone knows exactly what the real problem has always been and why EVERYONE else will eventually make your list of NFG's if they aren't already on it.
I know why you have to drive 120 miles to find a shop that will allow you to bring your car in. :P
Let's just be sure that everyone knows exactly what the real problem has always been and why EVERYONE else will eventually make your list of NFG's if they aren't already on it.
Yes, I expect competent service- although you define an honest professional as someone who charges a service fee but can't fix the problem. So just who is being unreasonable here? "You charged me for a service visit and didn't fix the problem, but it doesn't matter- because you techs are just so darn honest and professional."
I know why you have to drive 120 miles to find a shop that will allow you to bring your car in.
Let's see... The tire shop I patronize is less than a mile from my house. The indie shop that services my Jeep is 2 miles away. My indie BMW tech is 10 miles away. My BMW dealer? 12 miles.
And the reason I drive 120 miles to have my Mazda serviced? 1. The local dealer wanted thousands over MSRP for a Mazdaspeed 3 back in 2007. And a signed buyers order before a test drive. 2. I later gave the same dealer a chance to sell me front brake pads; they wanted $57 over MSRP. 3. Based on the stories I've heard about this dealer(and all the other stores in the same group) it seems that they refuse to hire any techs with opposable thumbs. Hmm... money doesn't matter, results don't matter... Come to think of it, you would probably LOVE those guys!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I really love a good debate. But this is why I had to really think about whether I should respond to you or not. I figured that you were simply baiting and hoping I'd play and you were sure that you had all the answers. But now that you're on the ropes this is just pathetic. Is that really all the better that you could come up with in two hours time?
We aren't going to see eye to eye here, so get over it already. Yes techs deserve to be paid for the time spent when doing diagnostics and sometimes the right answer is that they will have to continue when the conditions will allow them to move forward.
I figured that you were simply baiting and hoping I'd play and you were sure that you had all the answers. But now that you're on the ropes this is just pathetic. Is that really all the better that you could come up with in two hours time?
On the ropes? I'll wager that no one else in this topic agrees with your assessment. As for "baiting" you, that is all too easy; all I-or anyone else-has to do is mention a botched repair or diagnosis. Then I just sit back and watch you twist yourself into a pretzel defending the tech's mistake or ignorance. I thought that your tortured explanation of my Tire Kingdom fiasco was the pinnacle of your efforts to justify the inexcusable, but I have to say that tonight you have progressed to a level that even I didn't think was possible. I don't think anyone expected you to criticize the competent shop for making an educated guess, verifying it with diagnostic work, and actually fixing the problem. Even more so than before, I am now convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no error, screw-up, or blatant example of rampant stupidity that you wouldn't attempt to explain or justify.
Yes techs deserve to be paid for the time spent when doing diagnostics and sometimes the right answer is that they will have to continue when the conditions will allow them to move forward.
Translation: Give the shop that screwed the pooch multiple chances to charge you for a service call- who knows? They might actually fix the problem- given enough opportunities to "move forward".
The HVAC issue simply wasn't an esoteric or rare problem. One shop nailed it and the other didn't. And I'm sure no one was surprised which cause you championed.
Get your best justifications and excuses organized; I have a few more scenarios to post in the weeks to come- how about some tomfoolery with various parts departments?
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
making an educated guess, verifying it with diagnostic work,
Diagnostics is about asking questions, and then testing. Had they made their educated guess and not been able to prove where the fault was they would have had two choices. Change the part and see what happens, or wait until the problem re-occurs and then continue on. I can just imagine how you would have treated them if they had made you spend your money on a repair that didn't fix your HVAC.
These are the key lines to your story. He checked the freon level and inlet and outlet temps and announced he couldn't find anything wrong, and to call if it happened again. Well, it was obvious something was wrong, and the coil froze again within a day or two.
That one confirms that the tech tested the system and it was performing correctly at that point in time.
"It sounds like you have a bad defrost timer board." The next day the tech came over, verified the problem, and replaced the board
The key segment here is "verified the problem" which means that when he got there it wasn't performing correctly at that time and so the verification wouldn't be a big deal.
Those two sets of conditions are what let one tech succeed at the moment with doing the repair and forced the other one to have to suspend the visit until it acts up again. In your world you have to condemn one of them, so that you have to have to be someone to blame. In the real world both techs did exactly what they should have given the circumstances that presented themselves.
defending the tech's mistake or ignorance.
That's because you can only see what you want to. I'm about identifying what failure string was and finding a way to break it so that the problem doesn't occur again and if he/she failed help the tech learn from it. That's why the second shop get's lucky on this one. If you go back to my response you'll see where it says that many failures are ultimately only prevented by a top tech when management has failed to do their part towards preventing any mistakes. When the wife swagged it on the phone she set in place a potential fault that could have easily carried all the way through to a full failure. However that failure was prevented at the last moment by the techs diligence, as well as the simple luck that the problem was verifiable when he got there.
You keep failing to also take into account that your story depends totally on whether or not the symptom that you were reporting, the coil icing up could only be the result of the failure of a single component. If that board isn't the only possible cause for the symptom when she swagged it now the the tech ends up trying to explain why someone thought the problem was XX and its YYY. Time and again stories about an auto repair event mishap result from someone making the same kind of a flawed initial assessment.
And I'm sure no one was surprised which cause you championed.
This by far is the point I've been working at and you just don't get it. I'm not championing for either tech. One got to fix the system, one didn't. They had different circumstances occurring during their visits. One had the failure occurring and it was verifiable, for the other the failure wasn't occurring, which means it wasn't verifiable at that point in time. They both did exactly what they should have done given those two different scenarios. Had the dice rolled the other way and the problem been verifiable when the first tech was testing the system and he failed to figure it out, then your version of the story would have had a leg to stand on.
Get your best justifications and excuses organized; I have a few more scenarios to post in the weeks to come- how about some tomfoolery with various parts departments
I not surprised that you don't care who your throw through the mud as long as you come out as the victim, and then the super-hero who knows more about someone else's job than they do. You are all about your hard earned money, you've said so yourself enough times already. I'm about the people, and if something went south on them do whatever it takes to figure out why and see what can be done to try prevent it from happening again. If something comes down to an education issue, then get them training. If it was an equipment issue then get it fixed or replaced. If management stacked the deck against them, make them change their policies and habits. If it really comes down to someone simply being the wrong person for a given job, well that's when being in management sucks.
Keep in mind the circumstances between the diagnostic attempts between the two shops were not the same. I've seen many times were previous attempts to repair a problem failed simply because they tried to fix it without the problem present. Then the last person in simply "pulls the lucky straw" and the problem is occurring for him and solving it is easy.
I've got my own HVAC failure-to-diagnose-properly story to relate. I've told this before, not sure if was in this thread or not.
My problem was similar to roadburners' - the outside unit (the condenser) of the heat pump system would not defrost. This happened during one of our top-five snow storms, so I spent the better part of the day cleaning off the coils with a brush.
Afterwards I called the local shop, a "tech" came out and said I needed a new control board. They charged me $70 or so for the visit, said the control board (may be the same as roadburners defrost timer) would have to special ordered and that it would cost $400, to which I agreed.
Two weeks went by and I heard nothing. So I called the shop and they told me Al was no longer working for them; that they have no idea where the control board is; and that they would have to reorder it.
I told 'em to forget about it. In the meantime, I had done a little troubleshooting on my own and figured out that a relay that controls the fan in the outside unit was sticking closed - welded contacts. See, when the heat pump system goes into the defrost mode, it runs backwards (like an air conditioner), pulling heat out of the house, warming the coils on the condenser which melts the frost that has built up. The fan relay is supposed to open up during this process, turning off the fan to prevent cold cold from being pulled across the coils. The sticking relay prevented this from happening, so the cold air prevented the coils from defrosting.
So all that was needed to find this problem was a basic understanding of how a heat pump system works (outside fan should be OFF during the defrost cycle), being able to read the wiring diagram, and used a basic DVM to trace through the circuits to find out why the fan relay was not opening up. A $10 relay fixed the problem.
I then contacted the HVAC and told 'em to refund my $70 for the first servive visit, which the did.
So, the "professional" tech mis-diagnosed the root cause of the problem. Had I not correctly diagnosed the problem, I would have been out the original $70 service visit fee, plus the $400 for the control board, only to be told "oh, sorry, must be something else".
He checked the freon level and inlet and outlet temps and announced he couldn't find anything wrong, and to call if it happened again. Well, it was obvious something was wrong, and the coil froze again within a day or two.
That one confirms that the tech tested the system and it was performing correctly at that point in time.
Maybe, maybe not. Checking the freon levels and inlet and outlet temperatures was only part of diagnosing the problem. First of all, were those measurements made when the unit was in heat, AC, or defrost mode? Even if those measurements were made during the defrost mode, the fact that they were correct only exonerated part of the system.
Funny, I have a heat pump story too. Mine was freezing up so I called the shop and told them I needed a service call and mentioned that I thought it had a slow leak and needed a recharge (wasn't trying to pre-guess their diagnosis as much as trying to let them know to bring along some refrigerant - it was approaching 100° so the sooner it was fixed the better).
That was the problem and the guy asked me how I knew. Told him I looked up the symptoms on the net.
When you drive something every day, you can get a feel for what's "normal". Techs may get to look at a car for 15 minutes; meanwhile they have the fun of trying to figure out your explanation of why your car isn't normal.
The key segment here is "verified the problem" which means that when he got there it wasn't performing correctly at that time and so the verification wouldn't be a big deal.
Wrong- the system was in the same condition as when the "honest professional" tested it. The second tech actually tested the defrost timer board- the Mr. HP just checked the freon and inlet/outlet temps.
I not surprised that you don't care who your throw through the mud as long as you come out as the victim, and then the super-hero who knows more about someone else's job than they do. You are all about your hard earned money, you've said so yourself enough times already.
I admit it, I'm brutally unreasonable. When I pay for something I have this strange uncontrollable desire to expect results. And I actually DO understand it when a tech can't diagnose a transient or intermittent problem on the first try; I've chased quite a few rabbits before as well. But that wasn't what happened here. And you conveniently forgot that I mentioned that I stuck with the original shop despite the personnel changes and the hearsay that the shop was going downhill.
I'm about the people, and if something went south on them do whatever it takes to figure out why and see what can be done to try prevent it from happening again.
In other words, it the honest pro doesn't fix the problem, it isn't his fault- and the customer's wallet is merely collateral damage.
Edit: I keep a file folder for repair receipts on my household appliances, and I dug up the second tech's repair order- it reads:
"Checked heat pump- found bad defrost board and sensors"
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Wrong- the system was in the same condition as when the "honest professional" tested it
BS...Your previous description doesn't support that statemenmt.
Unless you want to change your story, do you?
And you conveniently forgot that I mentioned that I stuck with the original shop despite the personnel changes and the hearsay that the shop was going downhill
You are still forgetting, or maybe you simply can't comprehend the Swiss Cheese model and how it apllies.
Edit: I keep a file folder for repair receipts on my household appliances, and I dug up the second tech's repair order- it reads:
"Checked heat pump- found bad defrost board and sensors
Wait, what???? Now was it the board, or was it the sensors? The board and the sensors doesn't wash in my book. Guess they just got added to your list of FNG's. Oh well no biggie, everyone will be there eventually.
>"Checked heat pump- found bad defrost board and sensors"
The sensors probably means the ambient sensor that tells the heat pump if the air temperature is in a range where the outside coils can collect condensate in heat pump mode to form ice. That would explain that the defrost controller didn't put it into defrost mode per the schedule time parameter if the sensor was saying ambient was above 38-40 or whatever value that unit's engineers chose.
The defrost boards live in the worst of conditions with the swings in temperatures expanding and contracting the foils and coatings as well as the components. I had one start going bad one spring and then show up again in the next fall heating season. Took me until Christmas to isolate that it had to be the circuit board--even though it tested okay in its short cycle test I had it run. Replacing the defrost board is a good prophylactic measure after a certain age and with certain symptoms--one of which would be an ice cube for a condensor, with no other obvious symptom.
I did not have an ice cube. My unit's symptoms were repeated cycling of the reversing valve at 2-3 second intervals until the max time ran out on the defrost board. Was it relay for the reversing valve or the board controlling same. Only happened in certain higher relative humidity and 30's temperatures.
I would have been done with Roadburner's first company and gone to another one.
"Checked heat pump- found bad defrost board and sensors"
Right there was cause for suspicion. It may have been one, or the other, but probably not both. Temperature sensors (passive ones anyway) are very simple devices, usually with only two leads on them. They're basically resistors whose value varies with the temperature. Yes, one of them could have failed, but that in all likelihood would not have damaged the defrost board. And those temp sensors can be checked very easily with an ohmmeter.
So even in this case the tech was to some extent shotgunning it.
My Buick LaCrosse has a 4 year warranty. The recommended maintenance for it consists of $40 oil changes and tire rotations every 10k miles or one year. They do an inspection along with the service. I am confident that following this schedule, I will be unlikely to have any issues with the engine or transmission. That has always been my experience with domestic vehicles in the last 10 years. I've also haven't experienced any issues with A/C or electrical malfunctions. Now let me ask re euro cars. BMW, MB and VW. Lets assume that the pre-paid maintenance for VW and BMW is pay as you go. If you look at the regular maintenance costs for those brands, are they more comprehensive --- do you need to do more ? We know it is very expensive [MB as an example.] Is there something about the Euro cars that requires high cost maintenance to keep them on the road ? Are they more prone to mechanical issues than my Buick [Chevy-Ford-Dodge etc}] unless you do more than change the oil as needed ? If I buy an E Class sedan and just drive it -- take it to an independent mechanic to have the same recommended service my domestic has -- will it fall apart in 50 thousand miles? Is the need to spend big bucks on these cars a necessity or just something to make folks feel they have something "special" ? Are they engineered to require TLC ? Maybe you have an opinion. Please share.
BS...Your previous description doesn't support that statemenmt.
Unless you want to change your story, do you?
Ah yes, standard cardoc debate philosophy- accuse the other side of lying. Try reading for comprehension. My original statement was:
"Well, it was obvious something was wrong, and the coil froze again within a day or two.
I called a residential contractor friend and he also said that my shop had gone downhill and suggested another small shop where the tech's wife runs the office. I called that shop and explained what was going on. His wife immediately said, "It sounds like you have a bad defrost timer board." The next day the tech came over, verified the problem, and replaced the board." (emphasis added)
You are still forgetting, or maybe you simply can't comprehend the Swiss Cheese model and how it apllies.
I get it alright; the shop goes downhill, complaints mount- all the more reason to keep using the shop and their "honest professionals" who can't fix the problem.
Guess they just got added to your list of FNG's. Oh well no biggie, everyone will be there eventually.
Ah yes, the bitterness is palpable. It's too bad that you can't enjoy your life. Defending the indefensible/inept/lazy/slow-witted just has to be exhausting- couple that with long hours at a job that you constantly describe as riddled with no-win scenarios and I'd be ready to jump off a bridge as well...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
If you are interested, I'll be happy to relate my experience with owning, wrenching on, and competing in BMWs(10 in all since 1983, 4 currently in the garage)- but I'd best do so over on the CCBA or SFTSFL topics.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
If you look at the regular maintenance costs for those brands, are they more comprehensive --- do you need to do more ? Maybe you have an opinion. Please share.
I can only speak about the last 4 bmws I have owned and 2 Mercedes my wife has owned. I know I paid extra for the 4 years worry free maintenance programs on the cars but I don't notice that money was spent. I like the fact BMW and MB feel confident enough about their cars that they will fix them and even service them at no charge. It is well worth it to know I have bought a car that the manufacturer will stand behind 100% - 4 years of no worry hassle free driving.
I think problems with foreign brands, particularly European cars, was a problem in the past so the manufacturers want you to feel that you don't have to worry about repair costs when you buy one of these cars.
There were some minor items fixed under the extended warranty program, but basically the cars run fine without any really problems. Oil changes are at 15K miles on current BMWs.
With my wifes new Audi, the maintenace package is offered separately, you don't have to buy it. I think it was about $175 and included all oil changes etc for 3 years. It is a little better to have a choice, but, it seems you will come out ahead if you go with the package.
btw...it is clever of BMW to offer this package, they may get some buyers that they wouldn't normally get, but, you might buy other things when you go to "their" shop to get your service work done.
In summary, maybe I pay a bit extra to have bumper to bumper maintenance for 4 years.......does it matter....I like the fact the manufacturer feels so stronly about their product they will look after it completely, for 4 years.
BMWs have free maintenance for 4 years/50k miles. The maintenance intervals for newer Bimmers are determined by either mileage, time or the Condition Based Service(CBS) system. Without going into a lot of detail, the cars require an oil change at @16k miles or one year. Air and microfilters are replaced when the CBS indicates. Ditto for brakes. Plugs on naturally aspirated cars and the ATF are changed at 100k intervals. Brake fluid must be changed every two years.
If you aren't keeping the car past 100k that maintenance regimen should suffice. I usually keep mine past 150k so I am a bit more proactive. I change the "lifetime" coolant every 2-4 years and the manual gearbox/AT/final drive(rear end) oils every 50k-60k(30k on my track cars)
The key to economical BMW ownership is finding either a good dealer or indie shop that specializes in BMWs. If you join the BMW Car Club many dealers and shops give a 10%-20% discount on parts and/or labor. At my dealer, an Oil Service runs @$95. a brake fluid flush runs around $80, and an ATF change is@$250. On my son's 2004 X3, a major(60k)(what Munich calls Inspection II) runs around $300.
As for A/C issues- only one on my post 1985 cars(the aux fan died and the A/C pressure relief valve blew on my 1987 5er). I haven't touched the A/C on my 1995 3er, my son's X3, or my wife's 2009 3er. My 1975 2002 doesn't have A/C
Electrical issues? A brake light switch on the "95 at over 100k miles- $30 and 30 minutes to replace. An SRS seat sensor on the X3(warranty/recall). That's it.
Remember that simplicity is your friend. 1 Series and 3 Series cars are the sweet point. RWD and naturally aspirated engines also reduce the likelihood of trouble- as does a manual gearbox. As a point of reference, my Mazdaspeed 3 and 1999 Wrangler required several more repairs prior to 100k.
In closing, all I would say is this: Drive the BMW you are interested in for a day or so if possible. If you don't like it better than your Buick-and if you don't there is NOTHING wrong with that-I'd stick with car from Lansing
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
IMO, the one thing I see some posters ignoring on this subject is the most obvious...
We pay "hired guns" to resolve the issues we either can't do ourselves or choose not to do ourselves. We hire the HVAC repair facility to diagnose and repair the HVAC system when its malfunctioning, and inherent in that "contract" is the implication the facility has the capability and the intention of fixing the problem. When one is paying, its usual to expect results in return.
That doesn't mean every problem gets fixed right the first time, every time, but the repair facility should have a reasonable track record of doing exactly that, especially when we are discussing well-understood systems that have been properly designed. I would include the average HVAC system in that classification.
Again, we aren't talking about bleeding edge systems here.
At the end of the day, some people just suck at their job. It's really that simple. In fact, that's the backbone of the capitalistic system... The more efficient providers eliminate the less efficient providers from the market, and that holds true whether we're talking HVAC repair or car repair.
It seems a bit silly to me for anyone to attempt to defend every instance of a failed attempt at repair as a just and equitable endeavor.
I don't think capitalism weeds out the poorer craftsmen any more than Evolution weeds out all the stupid people in the world. Man's social systems have interfered mightily with such "pure" concepts of economic or biological systems. So things like tenure, unions, nepotism, political largesse, and simple devious human craftiness all conspire to protect incompetence---often for a lifetime.
In closing, all I would say is this: Drive the BMW you are interested in for a day or so if possible. If you don't like it better than your Buick-and if you don't there is NOTHING wrong with that-I'd stick with car from Lansing
As a BMW owner, I completely agree with that statement.
Everyone isn't into the more "unique" driving sensations a BMW can provide, and there isn't anything wrong with that at all. And, if you aren't into it, there's certainly no need to pay extra in order to get it.
I don't think capitalism weeds out the poorer craftsmen any more than Evolution weeds out all the stupid people in the world. Man's social systems have interfered mightily with such "pure" concepts of economic or biological systems. So things like tenure, unions, nepotism, political largesse, and simple devious human craftiness all conspire to protect incompetence---often for a lifetime.
Capitalism doesn't weed out the poorer "craftsmen" generally because, as you stated, it usually isn't capitalism, but some mis-stated hybrid system.
Still, in my experience, most poor service providers do indeed fail eventually, but they are quickly replaced by (all too often) other poor service providers.
I feel that the first company should get paid for their work. It's a chance you take. Nobody said 'You have to hire this contractor to do the work'. If it wasn't the best decision to hire them, it's on you. If the company can't do the job, time after time, they will end up going out of business. Edit, I see there are some additional post about this. I knew someone who was a very good home builder, but they had no clue about how to track an d manage money. They went out of business. It's a balance, and of course the game isn't always straight up.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
I'd go with the guys that fixed the problem. The old shop is getting some bad word of mouth. You no longer have confidence in them. That the companys secretary could properly diagnosis the problem is the icing on the cake.
Just got back from Gatlingburg. A big bear walked along the creek in front of our chalet. A somewhat domesticated raccoon wouldn't stop begging for food. Should of packed my .357. :mad:
The car handled well throughout the trip. Got up to 84mph with no vibration.
I feel that the first company should get paid for their work. It's a chance you take. Nobody said 'You have to hire this contractor to do the work'. If it wasn't the best decision to hire them, it's on you.
Agreed, I paid them and didn't ask for a refund- but I wasn't going to give the shop a second shot since they hadn't found anything wrong the first time.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
(Jipster, I went backpacking out of Cades Cove back in '74. A durn little bear climbed up the tree where all the gear was strung up, including my brand new contacts. So I creamed him with a rock right in the snout and he almost fell out of the tree hightailing it back to town. )
Comments
At least when I screw up I admit it and take responsibility. I don't ask or expect someone else to make excuses or to shoot the messenger.
That said, I do sympathize with you; if I unquestioningly defended every slow-witted, careless, lazy, or otherwise incompetent attorney and/or judge I wouldn't have time to eat or sleep. You must be equally as busy- if not more so.
I know I'm unreasonable in that I expect shops to know at least as much about my vehicles and/or their products as I do, but that's the way it is.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Yes and no..
If...and I do mean IF..both people have an above average command of English, then to my knowledge there is simply not a more descriptive, more exacting and thorough form of extensive and communicative language on the planet.
It is amazing how different people can interpret differently the same sentence or paragraph. It's not unusual for an exchange to go something like this:
Very true, but this usually happens between the sexes. I would say in...ok...let's say in 100% of the time, haha.. (unless she has an exceptionally high level of testosterone coursing through her veins).. :shades:
Talking about this BMW rolling...funny...I didn't even go to see the video..but I thought to myself, I'll betcha it is one of those many many cases of why people who drive autos (and sticks FTM) should ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS use the parking brake, and that the thing was parked on an icy hill. So preventable...but nooooo...some [non-permissible content removed] has to make a big tuh-du over it. I'm reminded of the little ignorant jerk Jackson Proscoe, on Global News up here..little barf always trying to make himself look like he has something to report..
So also on this parking pawl chat, and women literally hearing something totally different than what is said by a man...a couple years ago or so, I was trying to explain to a woman who had trouble with her Hyundai transmission, and why she should always use the parking brake even when trans is in Park. I explained about the whole thing about potential shear situations if someone bumps her in the Walmart parking etc etc (and that type of force would exceed even parking on severe grade) and the whole thing about the forces on the end of pawl when being pulled out of Park all the time if she lived on a steep hill and did it every time etc etc etc ...
Haha, well you should have seen the strip she ripped off me...she went up one side of me and down the other, lololol
Sometimes a guy just can't win, no matter how well intentioned he is..
And this brings us full circle back to doc, haha
I'll take a guess at his answer:
A tech is never wrong
AND
Roadburner is always lying.
Simple, no?
Perhaps I should have embellished the tire mounting story and and said that I discovered the tires were mounted wrong a couple of days later- then I'll bet the explanation would have been:
"The tires were almost certainly mounted correctly- what happened is that you took some curves at too high a speed and that turned the tires inside out."
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Yes and no..
If...and I do mean IF..both people have an above average command of English, then to my knowledge there is simply not a more descriptive, more exacting and thorough form of extensive and communicative language on the planet.
Sometimes, average isn't quite good enough...
http://grammar.about.com/od/punctuationandmechanics/a/punctmatters07.htm
Not every customer will insist. Not every customer would think Hyundai should be liable for the failed engine (many would know deep down that they had abused and neglected the car and wouldn't give a claim denial a second thought).
But...do you REALLY think a 1/64th shim would make the SLIGHTEST twit of a difference in doing an alignment??
I think "show shims" were a good name for those!
1/10th of a degree will matter?? Not buying that!
Still, you would be my man to do the job!
That's the opposite of setting the toe and letting it go!
Yes they made a difference !.
There are a number of things you may be aware of that I had something to do with. Do you recall when techs started tying the alignment heads to the wheel with bungie straps? Today it's common, but that started with me because I had a wheel that the heads just wouldn't stay on and knew that if a head fell and broke we were expected to pay for it. It just didn't make any sense to risk my paycheck when the solution was sitting in the top of my tool box.
About a month later the Hunter guy came in to do a calibration and his first reaction was, "what the heck is that doing there"? It spread across the country from then on.
1/10th of a degree will matter?? Not buying that!
That's your prerogative.
Still, you would be my man to do the job!
That's the opposite of setting the toe and letting it go!
That's nice of you to say, but I'm just a mechanic and not perfect. You should have RB do all of your work for now on.
Thanks! I have coveted your respect and admiration; it's nice to know that I have finally received it!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Someone else's money, I presume.
And what, may I ask, do you consider to be a "POS car"???
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Times 100! X 100!!
Also, look for quality over cheapness. Better to buy something that doesn't need warranty work (even if provided without jumping through 20 hoops).
As a technical support person, software, I can appreciate your POV, and don't have the added pressure of owning the business on top of that.
One side of the organization preaches best practices and quality, another side, speed is everything.
Makes sense. Thanks for the interpretation....I took what they were saying at face value and just thought the car had to have broken away and was sliding down the hill because of a mechanical malfunction.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Curious - does your organization put a lot of pressure to close out trouble tickets quickly?
For several years I had used a local heating and cooling shop for annual inspections and repairs; after a few years almost all the experienced techs that I knew had left. I began to hear a few complaints about the shop but I had not experienced any problems and continued to use them. One winter day the heat pump wasn't working. I checked the outside unit and found the coil to be completely frozen. I called the shop and the next day they sent out a very young tech. He checked the freon level and inlet and outlet temps and announced he couldn't find anything wrong, and to call if it happened again. Well, it was obvious something was wrong, and the coil froze again within a day or two.
I called a residential contractor friend and he also said that my shop had gone downhill and suggested another small shop where the tech's wife runs the office. I called that shop and explained what was going on. His wife immediately said, "It sounds like you have a bad defrost timer board." The next day the tech came over, verified the problem, and replaced the board. Since that time I have been loyal to that shop. He has provided prompt service and we finally had him install a new system last year. Note that he did not recommend replacing my 25 year old unit until the interior coil finally failed; at that point he was of the opinion that it wasn't worth replacing it since the other components were likely to start failing as well. As far as cost goes, he charges about the same as my prior shop.
Now, note that I have never bad-mouthed the old shop, but I no longer recommend it, instead telling people about the shop I now use.
Would anyone have called the original shop for a do-over?
I probably would have if some of the old techs were still there, and I would have specifically asked for one of them. Then there was the time factor- at the time I was working full time and my wife was part time and I didn't want to accommodate and pay for another wasted trip.
Does anyone think that they have a duty to tell the prior shop why you are no longer using them?
I would have only if they had called to ask why a customer of nearly two decades quit using them- but they never did. I didn't blame the tech as much as I blamed the shop- they sent out a new tech without the proper diagnostic skills or experienced backup.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Same question - my van isn't "right" after replacing the timing belt 3 weeks ago. I'm going in for a call-back in a week. Assuming it's the belt and not something else causing the hesitation and rough idle, is the fix a freebie?
I always watch for that too! The original owner started with nothing and built his business up, he doesn't have the overhead of creating the business. The new owners have $Xs to pay out every month to pay for the business. It usually makes a difference.
Assuming it's the belt and not something else causing the hesitation and rough idle, is the fix a freebie?
I am sure....they will make sure, it will be something else.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
But, it was doing fine before the belt broke.
Doesn't matter :sick:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
My world is one where when something goes wrong, the most important thing is to deal with it, and learn from it. Blame doesn't let either of the things that are important to me occur so it isn't part of my picture. Even now, some will take this as if I'm laying the blame on you for the majority of your dissatisfactions when really I'm only looking for the scientific explanations for what occurred each time. My world is about seeing how and why a failure occurs so that maybe it can be avoided in the future. When ever something went wrong I would be beating myself up a whole lot worse over it than most would ever imagine, the last thing anyone ever needed to do was to start piling on.
Have you ever heard of The Swiss Cheese Model ?
I wrote an article of my own a number of years ago about how management needs to work on solving problems and just not blaming people for them only to have someone turn around and refer me to that work. My ideas fell exactly inline with the Swiss Cheese model even though I'd never heard of it. One of the key points that I made with my article is how a top technician quite often is the one thing that ultimately prevents or is simply only the last piece of the failure chain when something goes wrong in the shop. Now if and when a problem occurs if everyone really stopped and truly examined the event they would likely realize there were a number of other chances to prevent the mistake but they all got overlooked too. The point that I had to use was that ultimately the mistakes get blamed on the techs by people too shallow to admit that at some point they contributed to it occurring in some fashion.
For your part you will never understand the world that I see. That's why to me the second AC company who guessed on the phone about a defrost control made a significant mistake, and just happened to get away with it. Your first AC tech met all of the demands of honesty , integrity and professionalism and when the system simply didn't act up for him he didn't SWAG it. That takes discipline, and pride in one's workmanship and I'm not surprised that you found fault with him over it. You see in the Swiss Cheese model, management is capable of creating a single hole through every level of the cheese and causing an error even when none would have ever existed. You in effect took managements place when you didn't (don't) have the knowledge and experience through which you would have earned that position. So you make the event into a mistake worthy of blame.
FWIW, I suspect you turned the system off when you realized that there was a problem, not that there is anything wrong with that. I would consider that a perfectly natural thing for anyone to do. The problem is semi conductor devices do what they darn well please at times and can act up one moment and turn around and work fine for a while after they have been turned off and then back on. Then given time, they fail again. That's why we call a lot of vehicle problems "Random Failures" and they can be the most difficult of all problems to solve. When something is broken, and it stays broken that's easy. When something is broken once in a while and someone guesses, the only way you know for sure what the result of the repair attempt was is on the day that it finally acts up again. A good guess actually leaves a vehicle owner wondering if today will be the day that they find out the car wasn't really fixed by replacing the XXXXXX.
So that's pretty much it. In my shop I solve some of the most difficult electronic puzzles that today's cars ever present. That only happens by having a good plan, that is in fact sharpened by all of the times something didn't work out at some time in my career. When things went wrong, I studied the situation until I could figure out why the failure occured and how to prevent it in the future, which usually is done by developing and following a routine. Your AC issue would be childs play for me IMO while it was acting up and sometimes I have to remind myself how lucky I am to be a tech. Now if only people were as easy to fix as machines are....
At first I honestly thought you were joking; the shop that diagnosed the system fault correctly made "a significant mistake" while the shop that missed the call completely "met all of the demands of honesty, integrity and professionalism." But then I realized that you were serious. Wow.
In your world, everyone else is incompetent
In your world, every tech is a pro, and people who complain about idiotic screw-ups are at fault( Hilton Head Tire Kingdom, anyone?). You conveniently forget that I have praised the dealers and indie shops that I use. They know their stuff and perform quality work. That said, I don't suffer fools gladly. An infrequent mistake is understandable, but I won't tolerate lazy or incompetent techs.
That said, I will definitely look up one of your "honest professionals" the next time I need some technical work done; I'll feel much better paying them my hard-earned money just to know integrity is at work- actually fixing the problem is a minor detail that I don't need to be concerned about...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
How many would go with the shop that fixed the problem?
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
presented with a condition, they had the experience to know what the most likely problem was. But they came out and did the proper diagnostics to verify what it was.
If you were in the situation of the 1st guy, and the problem was not manifesting itself at the moment, would you assume there really was no problem, or do some checking to find out the root cause?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Make your poll if that was an honerable way to operate their business or not.
Lets play "what if". What if they had sold the part and this time it didn't solve the problem? iirc. they swagged it right from the phone call.
presented with a condition, they had the experience to know what the most likely problem was. But they came out and did the proper diagnostics to verify what it was.
Keep in mind the circumstances between the diagnostic attempts between the two shops were not the same. I've seen many times were previous attempts to repair a problem failed simply because they tried to fix it without the problem present. Then the last person in simply "pulls the lucky straw" and the problem is occurring for him and solving it is easy.
If you were in the situation of the 1st guy, and the problem was not manifesting itself at the moment, would you assume there really was no problem, or do some checking to find out the root cause?
You do a reasonable amount of checking, but if its not broke, you can't fix it. I routinely beat problems like this on cars with two things, patience and experience. That's the way tech jobs are supposed to be done.
Let's just be sure that everyone knows exactly what the real problem has always been and why EVERYONE else will eventually make your list of NFG's if they aren't already on it.
I know why you have to drive 120 miles to find a shop that will allow you to bring your car in. :P
Yes, I expect competent service- although you define an honest professional as someone who charges a service fee but can't fix the problem.
So just who is being unreasonable here?
"You charged me for a service visit and didn't fix the problem, but it doesn't matter- because you techs are just so darn honest and professional."
I know why you have to drive 120 miles to find a shop that will allow you to bring your car in.
Let's see...
The tire shop I patronize is less than a mile from my house.
The indie shop that services my Jeep is 2 miles away.
My indie BMW tech is 10 miles away.
My BMW dealer? 12 miles.
And the reason I drive 120 miles to have my Mazda serviced?
1. The local dealer wanted thousands over MSRP for a Mazdaspeed 3 back in 2007. And a signed buyers order before a test drive.
2. I later gave the same dealer a chance to sell me front brake pads; they wanted $57 over MSRP.
3. Based on the stories I've heard about this dealer(and all the other stores in the same group) it seems that they refuse to hire any techs with opposable thumbs.
Hmm... money doesn't matter, results don't matter...
Come to think of it, you would probably LOVE those guys!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
We aren't going to see eye to eye here, so get over it already. Yes techs deserve to be paid for the time spent when doing diagnostics and sometimes the right answer is that they will have to continue when the conditions will allow them to move forward.
On the ropes? I'll wager that no one else in this topic agrees with your assessment. As for "baiting" you, that is all too easy; all I-or anyone else-has to do is mention a botched repair or diagnosis. Then I just sit back and watch you twist yourself into a pretzel defending the tech's mistake or ignorance. I thought that your tortured explanation of my Tire Kingdom fiasco was the pinnacle of your efforts to justify the inexcusable, but I have to say that tonight you have progressed to a level that even I didn't think was possible. I don't think anyone expected you to criticize the competent shop for making an educated guess, verifying it with diagnostic work, and actually fixing the problem. Even more so than before, I am now convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no error, screw-up, or blatant example of rampant stupidity that you wouldn't attempt to explain or justify.
Yes techs deserve to be paid for the time spent when doing diagnostics and sometimes the right answer is that they will have to continue when the conditions will allow them to move forward.
Translation: Give the shop that screwed the pooch multiple chances to charge you for a service call- who knows? They might actually fix the problem- given enough opportunities to "move forward".
The HVAC issue simply wasn't an esoteric or rare problem. One shop nailed it and the other didn't. And I'm sure no one was surprised which cause you championed.
Get your best justifications and excuses organized; I have a few more scenarios to post in the weeks to come- how about some tomfoolery with various parts departments?
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Diagnostics is about asking questions, and then testing. Had they made their educated guess and not been able to prove where the fault was they would have had two choices. Change the part and see what happens, or wait until the problem re-occurs and then continue on. I can just imagine how you would have treated them if they had made you spend your money on a repair that didn't fix your HVAC.
These are the key lines to your story.
He checked the freon level and inlet and outlet temps and announced he couldn't find anything wrong, and to call if it happened again. Well, it was obvious something was wrong, and the coil froze again within a day or two.
That one confirms that the tech tested the system and it was performing correctly at that point in time.
"It sounds like you have a bad defrost timer board." The next
day the tech came over, verified the problem, and replaced the board
The key segment here is "verified the problem" which means that when he got there it wasn't performing correctly at that time and so the verification wouldn't be a big deal.
Those two sets of conditions are what let one tech succeed at the moment with doing the repair and forced the other one to have to suspend the visit until it acts up again. In your world you have to condemn one of them, so that you have to have to be someone to blame. In the real world both techs did exactly what they should have given the circumstances that presented themselves.
defending the tech's mistake or ignorance.
That's because you can only see what you want to. I'm about identifying what failure string was and finding a way to break it so that the problem doesn't occur again and if he/she failed help the tech learn from it. That's why the second shop get's lucky on this one. If you go back to my response you'll see where it says that many failures are ultimately only prevented by a top tech when management has failed to do their part towards preventing any mistakes. When the wife swagged it on the phone she set in place a potential fault that could have easily carried all the way through to a full failure. However that failure was prevented at the last moment by the techs diligence, as well as the simple luck that the problem was verifiable when he got there.
You keep failing to also take into account that your story depends totally on whether or not the symptom that you were reporting, the coil icing up could only be the result of the failure of a single component. If that board isn't the only possible cause for the symptom when she swagged it now the the tech ends up trying to explain why someone thought the problem was XX and its YYY. Time and again stories about an auto repair event mishap result from someone making the same kind of a flawed initial assessment.
And I'm sure no one was surprised which cause you championed.
This by far is the point I've been working at and you just don't get it. I'm not championing for either tech. One got to fix the system, one didn't. They had different circumstances occurring during their visits. One had the failure occurring and it was verifiable, for the other the failure wasn't occurring, which means it wasn't verifiable at that point in time. They both did exactly what they should have done given those two different scenarios. Had the dice rolled the other way and the problem been verifiable when the first tech was testing the system and he failed to figure it out, then your version of the story would have had a leg to stand on.
Get your best justifications and excuses organized; I have a few more scenarios to post in the weeks to come- how about some tomfoolery with various parts departments
I not surprised that you don't care who your throw through the mud as long as you come out as the victim, and then the super-hero who knows more about someone else's job than they do. You are all about your hard earned money, you've said so yourself enough times already. I'm about the people, and if something went south on them do whatever it takes to figure out why and see what can be done to try prevent it from happening again. If something comes down to an education issue, then get them training. If it was an equipment issue then get it fixed or replaced. If management stacked the deck against them, make them change their policies and habits. If it really comes down to someone simply being the wrong person for a given job, well that's when being in management sucks.
I've got my own HVAC failure-to-diagnose-properly story to relate. I've told this before, not sure if was in this thread or not.
My problem was similar to roadburners' - the outside unit (the condenser) of the heat pump system would not defrost. This happened during one of our top-five snow storms, so I spent the better part of the day cleaning off the coils with a brush.
Afterwards I called the local shop, a "tech" came out and said I needed a new control board. They charged me $70 or so for the visit, said the control board (may be the same as roadburners defrost timer) would have to special ordered and that it would cost $400, to which I agreed.
Two weeks went by and I heard nothing. So I called the shop and they told me Al was no longer working for them; that they have no idea where the control board is; and that they would have to reorder it.
I told 'em to forget about it. In the meantime, I had done a little troubleshooting on my own and figured out that a relay that controls the fan in the outside unit was sticking closed - welded contacts. See, when the heat pump system goes into the defrost mode, it runs backwards (like an air conditioner), pulling heat out of the house, warming the coils on the condenser which melts the frost that has built up. The fan relay is supposed to open up during this process, turning off the fan to prevent cold cold from being pulled across the coils. The sticking relay prevented this from happening, so the cold air prevented the coils from defrosting.
So all that was needed to find this problem was a basic understanding of how a heat pump system works (outside fan should be OFF during the defrost cycle), being able to read the wiring diagram, and used a basic DVM to trace through the circuits to find out why the fan relay was not opening up. A $10 relay fixed the problem.
I then contacted the HVAC and told 'em to refund my $70 for the first servive visit, which the did.
So, the "professional" tech mis-diagnosed the root cause of the problem. Had I not correctly diagnosed the problem, I would have been out the original $70 service visit fee, plus the $400 for the control board, only to be told "oh, sorry, must be something else".
That one confirms that the tech tested the system and it was performing correctly at that point in time.
Maybe, maybe not. Checking the freon levels and inlet and outlet temperatures was only part of diagnosing the problem. First of all, were those measurements made when the unit was in heat, AC, or defrost mode? Even if those measurements were made during the defrost mode, the fact that they were correct only exonerated part of the system.
That was the problem and the guy asked me how I knew. Told him I looked up the symptoms on the net.
When you drive something every day, you can get a feel for what's "normal". Techs may get to look at a car for 15 minutes; meanwhile they have the fun of trying to figure out your explanation of why your car isn't normal.
Wrong- the system was in the same condition as when the "honest professional" tested it. The second tech actually tested the defrost timer board- the Mr. HP just checked the freon and inlet/outlet temps.
I not surprised that you don't care who your throw through the mud as long as you come out as the victim, and then the super-hero who knows more about someone else's job than they do. You are all about your hard earned money, you've said so yourself enough times already.
I admit it, I'm brutally unreasonable. When I pay for something I have this strange uncontrollable desire to expect results. And I actually DO understand it when a tech can't diagnose a transient or intermittent problem on the first try; I've chased quite a few rabbits before as well. But that wasn't what happened here. And you conveniently forgot that I mentioned that I stuck with the original shop despite the personnel changes and the hearsay that the shop was going downhill.
I'm about the people, and if something went south on them do whatever it takes to figure out why and see what can be done to try prevent it from happening again.
In other words, it the honest pro doesn't fix the problem, it isn't his fault- and the customer's wallet is merely collateral damage.
Edit: I keep a file folder for repair receipts on my household appliances, and I dug up the second tech's repair order- it reads:
"Checked heat pump- found bad defrost board and sensors"
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
BS...Your previous description doesn't support that statemenmt.
Unless you want to change your story, do you?
And you conveniently forgot that I mentioned that I stuck with the original shop despite the personnel changes and the hearsay that the shop was going downhill
You are still forgetting, or maybe you simply can't comprehend the Swiss Cheese model and how it apllies.
Edit: I keep a file folder for repair receipts on my household appliances, and I dug up the second tech's repair order- it reads:
"Checked heat pump- found bad defrost board and sensors
Wait, what???? Now was it the board, or was it the sensors? The board and the sensors doesn't wash in my book. Guess they just got added to your list of FNG's. Oh well no biggie, everyone will be there eventually.
The sensors probably means the ambient sensor that tells the heat pump if the air temperature is in a range where the outside coils can collect condensate in heat pump mode to form ice. That would explain that the defrost controller didn't put it into defrost mode per the schedule time parameter if the sensor was saying ambient was above 38-40 or whatever value that unit's engineers chose.
The defrost boards live in the worst of conditions with the swings in temperatures expanding and contracting the foils and coatings as well as the components. I had one start going bad one spring and then show up again in the next fall heating season. Took me until Christmas to isolate that it had to be the circuit board--even though it tested okay in its short cycle test I had it run. Replacing the defrost board is a good prophylactic measure after a certain age and with certain symptoms--one of which would be an ice cube for a condensor, with no other obvious symptom.
I did not have an ice cube. My unit's symptoms were repeated cycling of the reversing valve at 2-3 second intervals until the max time ran out on the defrost board. Was it relay for the reversing valve or the board controlling same. Only happened in certain higher relative humidity and 30's temperatures.
I would have been done with Roadburner's first company and gone to another one.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Right there was cause for suspicion. It may have been one, or the other, but probably not both. Temperature sensors (passive ones anyway) are very simple devices, usually with only two leads on them. They're basically resistors whose value varies with the temperature. Yes, one of them could have failed, but that in all likelihood would not have damaged the defrost board. And those temp sensors can be checked very easily with an ohmmeter.
So even in this case the tech was to some extent shotgunning it.
Now let me ask re euro cars. BMW, MB and VW. Lets assume that the pre-paid maintenance for VW and BMW is pay as you go. If you look at the regular maintenance costs for those brands, are they more comprehensive --- do you need to do more ? We know it is very expensive [MB as an example.] Is there something about the Euro cars that requires high cost maintenance to keep them on the road ? Are they more prone to mechanical issues than my Buick [Chevy-Ford-Dodge etc}] unless you do more than change the oil as needed ? If I buy an E Class sedan and just drive it -- take it to an independent mechanic to have the same recommended service my domestic has -- will it fall apart in 50 thousand miles? Is the need to spend big bucks on these cars a necessity or just something to make folks feel they have something "special" ? Are they engineered to require TLC ?
Maybe you have an opinion. Please share.
Unless you want to change your story, do you?
Ah yes, standard cardoc debate philosophy- accuse the other side of lying. Try reading for comprehension. My original statement was:
"Well, it was obvious something was wrong, and the coil froze again within a day or two.
I called a residential contractor friend and he also said that my shop had gone downhill and suggested another small shop where the tech's wife runs the office. I called that shop and explained what was going on. His wife immediately said, "It sounds like you have a bad defrost timer board." The next day the tech came over, verified the problem, and replaced the board." (emphasis added)
You are still forgetting, or maybe you simply can't comprehend the Swiss Cheese model and how it apllies.
I get it alright; the shop goes downhill, complaints mount- all the more reason to keep using the shop and their "honest professionals" who can't fix the problem.
Guess they just got added to your list of FNG's. Oh well no biggie, everyone will be there eventually.
Ah yes, the bitterness is palpable. It's too bad that you can't enjoy your life. Defending the indefensible/inept/lazy/slow-witted just has to be exhausting- couple that with long hours at a job that you constantly describe as riddled with no-win scenarios and I'd be ready to jump off a bridge as well...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I can only speak about the last 4 bmws I have owned and 2 Mercedes my wife has owned. I know I paid extra for the 4 years worry free maintenance programs on the cars but I don't notice that money was spent. I like the fact BMW and MB feel confident enough about their cars that they will fix them and even service them at no charge. It is well worth it to know I have bought a car that the manufacturer will stand behind 100% - 4 years of no worry hassle free driving.
I think problems with foreign brands, particularly European cars, was a problem in the past so the manufacturers want you to feel that you don't have to worry about repair costs when you buy one of these cars.
There were some minor items fixed under the extended warranty program, but basically the cars run fine without any really problems. Oil changes are at 15K miles on current BMWs.
With my wifes new Audi, the maintenace package is offered separately, you don't have to buy it. I think it was about $175 and included all oil changes etc for 3 years. It is a little better to have a choice, but, it seems you will come out ahead if you go with the package.
btw...it is clever of BMW to offer this package, they may get some buyers that they wouldn't normally get, but, you might buy other things when you go to "their" shop to get your service work done.
In summary, maybe I pay a bit extra to have bumper to bumper maintenance for 4 years.......does it matter....I like the fact the manufacturer feels so stronly about their product they will look after it completely, for 4 years.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
BMWs have free maintenance for 4 years/50k miles. The maintenance intervals for newer Bimmers are determined by either mileage, time or the Condition Based Service(CBS) system. Without going into a lot of detail, the cars require an oil change at @16k miles or one year. Air and microfilters are replaced when the CBS indicates. Ditto for brakes. Plugs on naturally aspirated cars and the ATF are changed at 100k intervals. Brake fluid must be changed every two years.
If you aren't keeping the car past 100k that maintenance regimen should suffice. I usually keep mine past 150k so I am a bit more proactive. I change the "lifetime" coolant every 2-4 years and the manual gearbox/AT/final drive(rear end) oils every 50k-60k(30k on my track cars)
The key to economical BMW ownership is finding either a good dealer or indie shop that specializes in BMWs. If you join the BMW Car Club many dealers and shops give a 10%-20% discount on parts and/or labor. At my dealer, an Oil Service runs @$95. a brake fluid flush runs around $80, and an ATF change is@$250. On my son's 2004 X3, a major(60k)(what Munich calls Inspection II) runs around $300.
As for A/C issues- only one on my post 1985 cars(the aux fan died and the A/C pressure relief valve blew on my 1987 5er). I haven't touched the A/C on my 1995 3er, my son's X3, or my wife's 2009 3er. My 1975 2002 doesn't have A/C
Electrical issues? A brake light switch on the "95 at over 100k miles- $30 and 30 minutes to replace. An SRS seat sensor on the X3(warranty/recall).
That's it.
Remember that simplicity is your friend. 1 Series and 3 Series cars are the sweet point. RWD and naturally aspirated engines also reduce the likelihood of trouble- as does a manual gearbox. As a point of reference, my Mazdaspeed 3 and 1999 Wrangler required several more repairs prior to 100k.
In closing, all I would say is this: Drive the BMW you are interested in for a day or so if possible. If you don't like it better than your Buick-and if you don't there is NOTHING wrong with that-I'd stick with car from Lansing
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
We pay "hired guns" to resolve the issues we either can't do ourselves or choose not to do ourselves. We hire the HVAC repair facility to diagnose and repair the HVAC system when its malfunctioning, and inherent in that "contract" is the implication the facility has the capability and the intention of fixing the problem. When one is paying, its usual to expect results in return.
That doesn't mean every problem gets fixed right the first time, every time, but the repair facility should have a reasonable track record of doing exactly that, especially when we are discussing well-understood systems that have been properly designed. I would include the average HVAC system in that classification.
Again, we aren't talking about bleeding edge systems here.
At the end of the day, some people just suck at their job. It's really that simple. In fact, that's the backbone of the capitalistic system... The more efficient providers eliminate the less efficient providers from the market, and that holds true whether we're talking HVAC repair or car repair.
It seems a bit silly to me for anyone to attempt to defend every instance of a failed attempt at repair as a just and equitable endeavor.
As a BMW owner, I completely agree with that statement.
Everyone isn't into the more "unique" driving sensations a BMW can provide, and there isn't anything wrong with that at all. And, if you aren't into it, there's certainly no need to pay extra in order to get it.
Capitalism doesn't weed out the poorer "craftsmen" generally because, as you stated, it usually isn't capitalism, but some mis-stated hybrid system.
Still, in my experience, most poor service providers do indeed fail eventually, but they are quickly replaced by (all too often) other poor service providers.
It's a chance you take. Nobody said 'You have to hire this contractor to do the work'. If it wasn't the best decision to hire them, it's on you.
If the company can't do the job, time after time, they will end up going out of business.
Edit, I see there are some additional post about this.
I knew someone who was a very good home builder, but they had no clue about how to track an d manage money.
They went out of business. It's a balance, and of course the game isn't always straight up.
Just got back from Gatlingburg. A big bear walked along the creek in front of our chalet. A somewhat domesticated raccoon wouldn't stop begging for food. Should of packed my .357. :mad:
The car handled well throughout the trip. Got up to 84mph with no vibration.
It's a chance you take. Nobody said 'You have to hire this contractor to do the work'. If it wasn't the best decision to hire them, it's on you.
Agreed, I paid them and didn't ask for a refund- but I wasn't going to give the shop a second shot since they hadn't found anything wrong the first time.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Are Free Car Maintenance Programs Worth It?
(Jipster, I went backpacking out of Cades Cove back in '74. A durn little bear climbed up the tree where all the gear was strung up, including my brand new contacts. So I creamed him with a rock right in the snout and he almost fell out of the tree hightailing it back to town.