We as consumers aren't interested in management style when a directional tire is incorrectly installed. We don't care that you can use it as a teaching opportunity so it doesn't happen again. The consumer is going to assume that if a simple task as installing a tire can't be performed correctly, they need to take their business elsewhere. That's the real world.
If I pay someone to come out and fix my heat pump, and they leave without it being fixed... do you really expect any sane person to call them back and and let them try again?
While a nice utopian idea that consumers should forgive mid to major errors and stay loyal to the shops shops that do so, it's not realistic. You don't seem to understand, or don't want to, that some mistakes are forgivable... and some aren't. The vast majority of people would do exactly as roadburner did. You're trying to make him sound like the spawn of satan... just for taking his business elsewhere.
At the end of the day, we are all judged on the results we get, and the results we cause.
A tire installer the mis-mounts a tire that simply causes a car to pull to one side is ALWAYS going to be treated differently than if the same mistake caused a blowout, resulting in numerous fatalities.
Same mistake, very different results.
While the logic of saying the act of the mis-mounted tire is no different than the act of anyone else dialing a wrong number, society in general will make its assessment based on the outcome of the error.
Perhaps that's why you'll rarely hear someone try to whitewash an incident resulting in a disastrous outcome as being on the same par as dialing a wrong number. IMO, that sounds like an excellent way to enjoy the experience of being tarred and feathered, then run out of town on a rail.
While the logic of saying the act of the mis-mounted tire is no different than the act of anyone else dialing a wrong number, society in general will make its assessment based on the outcome of the error
So just how grave of an error is an incorrectly mounted directional tire?
The thing about directional tires is their ability to pump water out from underneath the tire and reduce the likelihood of hydro planing. That's an important job no doubt for people who's driving habits could have them encountering standing water at highway speeds (or higher). Keep in mind most drivers have enough common sense to slow down in bad conditions which also has an impact on the likelihood of hydroplaning. In some cases the use of the directional tire helps improve traction in wet conditions which would otherwise be lost because of the weight of the vehicle and the wider tires that the engineers designed the car to use and certain drivers desire. Most of the tires that meet my Mustang GT's specs are indeed directional. Keep in mind the word "most". The Bridgestone Potenza's that I put on my car exceed my car's specifications and they are not directional. In fact they also outperform almost all of the other tires that are directional in just about all conditions. Now in deep standing water, a full directional will make a difference, except that I would not be going as fast anyway as I would be in good conditions so that makes them have no net advantage for me anyway.
My main complaint is rough running at idle on up to any speed, some "faint" surging and lots of downshifting going up hills that I'd normally ease up with little drama, maybe with a little help by turning off overdrive. Now you have to punch it to keep ahead of the trucks.
The loss of torque which is what you are describing can easily be something keeping the engine from pumping air as much as it should. One of the checks that we do (and it's how I can prove if a fancy air filter actually made a difference or not) comes back to recording the PCM's engine load calculation and by computing the volumetric efficiency ratio (actual VS measured by the MAF if used). That information is cross checked by the fuel trim compensations and spark timing map being reported in the scan data.
The roughness of the engine would first be examined to see if it can be narrowed down to one cylinder or not. From there if you really thought that the cam timing was off I would take a running compression test with my pressure transducer and plot out the waveform and actually measure the valve timing events. You could have the cam be out of time, while the timing marks on the gears line up. Sometimes we run into sheared or bent timing gear pin, or a wallowed out key way on the crank gear. Now of course you could be talking about the belt being off a tooth too but that should have a significant impact on driveability as well as your mileage.
Your mileage variations are too small to be a concern. Any change in idling time, or a change in alcohol content of the fuel could cause your mileage to vary even more than what you measured.
I want to tie this behavior in with the timing belt but maybe it's just a coincidence?
Don't know, test and find out and then look back at the history.
I went into Honda dealership yesterday to get my Honda Civic's first oil change at 6,400 miles. The maintenance info screen said to change "oil only" about 1,000 miles ago. Also said to rotate tires, even though dealership recommends doing it at 10,000 miles. The maintenance minder ( a different screen) said I had 40% oil life remaining. :confuse:
The Civic uses 0w-20 oil, which some say is synthetic and some say it isnt. But, since the first oil change is free, I brought it in. I asked the service tech about the screen discrepancy on when to change the oil , he stated the dealership recommends oil changes every 5,000 miles. Said some people have had problems waiting too long to change oil when looking at on screen oil life monitor. He didn't address the screen discrepancy, so I guess he didnt know.
Anyhow, had pretty good service. I made the appointment at 9:30am. Got to the dealership at my 11:30 a.m apt. time, and I was literally driving off their lot at 11:57a.m.
No free doughnuts though. I'm never going back! :mad:
On the back of my invoice I saw something interesting that reminded me of cardoc's and a few others preachings: "What goes into the cost of servicing your automobile: Good service just doesn't happen. Operating a dependable service business requires organization, competent management and a substantial capital investment. So dont judge service charges soley by the time spend repairing your car. When that top noch mechanic goes to work, many costs have been incurred just to get him there ready to do the job. Here are some of them: service writer, car jockey, special tools, trainings, stationary, lights heat phone, parts, wages and overtime, building maintence, iinsurance, vacations sick pay, supervisory personnel, cashiers and clerks, taxes"
I think that's a pretty good idea on trying to educate their customers...not everybody partronises the edmunds forums. :sick:
Also, mabe this is why cardoc can charge less than his competitors. He is a one man operation without all those extra expenses.
If we don't disscuss such subjects as these in an open forum that is titled "A Mechanics Life" then where should we?
Its RB's use of derogatory terms that got him my attention. His choice of not using that HVAC service is of course his choice. His reasoning doesn't hold up under close examination, but he's still free to make choices whether they are rational to me or not. Plus being an open forum, I'm supposed to be able to post my opinions too, right? Or does my being a tech mean that I'm not worthy and I should know my place?
Thanks Doc. Seems like a likely ~4 mpg loss over ~10 tanks is significant though.
Back to directional tires, other than hydroplaning in "deep" water, running them backwards may not make much difference to the average driver (tirerack).
And finally, GM is going to give 2 years of oil changes with new cars sales starting with 2014 models. So there's going to be even less "easy money" routine work for the garages to use to pay their overhead.
Also, maybe this is why cardoc can charge less than his competitors. He is a one man operation without all those extra expenses.
The closest shops around me have rates lower than mine. They keep the street prices so low that no-one would survive without being very creative. I have a niche. I do the nightmare work that would eat everybody else's lunch. When we talk about random failures and intermittents I make my living figuring out how to solve those problems in an efficient manor. That's why my perspective on RB's heat pump system problem is different than most everyone else's.
That really low street price still forces me work more hours than I should, plus I subsidize the shop with the teaching. In fact many of the cars that I work with get used as case studies for training classes for other techs. That's one of the ways that I share what I have figured out. I'm just one of about a hundred full time techs around the country who do that.
...when last we left MrShiftright, he was complaining that his 2003 MINI Cooper, even with a new AC compressor and a full charge, will not adequately cool the car in traffic or at slow speeds when the outside ambient temperature reaches about 80 degrees. Only with 15-30 minutes of highway driving will the car cool nicely.
NEW OBSERVATIONS:
1. cooling fan cycles rapidly once engine reaches operating temp. 5 seconds ON, 20 seconds OFF, with clockwork precision
Well, I was arguing with your reasoning, not your posting on certain subjects. I've always enjoyed reading your posts/opinions, whether I agree with them or not. So post on big dawg! :P
So just how grave of an error is an incorrectly mounted directional tire?
On an incorrectly mounted directional tire, you're correct... Not very grave.
But, I didn't say incorrectly mounted directional tire.
I said...
mis-mounted tire
To quote myself...
A tire installer that mis-mounts a tire that simply causes a car to pull to one side is ALWAYS going to be treated differently than if the same mistake caused a blowout, resulting in numerous fatalities.
Mis-mounted can include all sorts of other errors, such as under-inflation, over-inflation, improper repair, etc.
Even with that, my point still holds true. People are judged on the results of their mistakes far more than they are on the potential results of their mistakes.
Even with that, my point still holds true. People are judged on the results of their mistakes far more than they are on the potential results of their mistakes
True. Take my tire balancing issue I had with Big O. If I don't notice the poorly balanced tires the day before, and pull out onto the expressway on my way to Gatlingburg with a wheel wobble so bad its shaking the fillings out of my teeth, what would my reaction have been? Well, probably not very pleasant. Push your vacation back the 2-4 hours it would take to remedy the problem, while trying to entertain a car load of wild savages (i.e children), and the judgment would be much harsher... in anyones book.
I wondered if you might have had a thermostat issue from what you wrote before..with these new details, it could point to a thermostat not opening fully.
Does this 5/20 cycle happen when the A/C is off also?
Again, I suggest in investing in a Class II laser temp gun. They have come down in price dramatically in the last decade. Back in 1999 or 2000 I pd over 400. for mine but I use it often. You could use it (besides suspecting cooler vent temps on deceleration) to check the swings in temp of the thermostat opening and closing, or depending on readings, it might indicate that it is not fully opening or closing. I suspect opening tho given your info so far.
I know by even commenting here I leave myself open to ridicule because doc doesn't have much use for shade tree mechanics and I have openly confessed I fall into that category. He hates it when online internet opinions "just get tossed out there". I'm tossing though because at least I'm tossing in a direction where I know I'm not dealing with an idiot, so that person can better interpret any of my thoughts on the issue.
Besides, ridicule all you want doc..instead of being offended, I'm more flattered, because every once in awhile my suggestions come very close to the crux. Most recently (altho I didn't get any credit) (but then...also didn't expect any from you either) were corroded wiring connections..
I know by even commenting here I leave myself open to ridicule because doc doesn't have much use for shade tree mechanics and I have openly confessed I fall into that category. He hates it when online internet opinions "just get tossed out there".
I doubt doc would consider it ridicule... He just lives in a different world when it comes to car repair, no different than Neil deGrasse Tyson might respond if we started throwing out our less-than-qualified opinions on Astrophysics.
In my experience, there isn't much more frustrating than seeing someone making comments on subjects they know nothing about. I'm not suggesting that applies to you at all on the subject, but on the Internet, its hard to see the guy posting on the other end.
I can't relate how many times I've seen posters on forums throw out comments as if they were fact, but instead really just someone blowing smoke.
Oh ya, same here..I've seen it too. But sometimes you have to consider the source. I hope I'm not living in a world of fantasy..but hopefully enough of my posts indicate that I know a thing or two. I don't claim to be anywhere near doc's level, of course, but by offering input, I become more mentally involved myself and will better remember specifics later on down the road when maybe I can relate what is learned this time around.
In this example, without going back for specific quotes, but more than one of my ideas were exactly inline with some of what doc said later. And that is just two guys trying to interpret over the internet. Both at a disadvantage of course, but one of us at a huge disadvantage (me) cuz I'm nowhere near the trained professional in his trade that he is. Doesn't mean I'm way off though at times..and if I am, I am the first to be humbled and learn from it.
I only mentioned the potential for me being on the receiving end of potential ridicule, cuz doc does tend to clump all who are not in his class, together.
Hope my reply didn't come off as defensive, cuz I didn't interpret your post in any way as my having a desire to be so.
What input is the PCM using to command the cooling fans on? AC high side pressure? Coolant Temperature? The AC high side pressure input would be more likely which leads to the next question. What is the high and low side pressures? Plus what are the surface temperatures of the components as described previously?
Just like the no-start where you have to start your testing by forgetting what was done previously, this is no different. You don't have the desired cooling level so something is wrong. Start testing the system again as if its never been touched and see where it leads you. That actually includes test the refrigerant for contaminaton. (air or other non-condensables) Test for AC sealants. Test/inspect mode and temperature door operation.,
Take a random repair...let's say a valve cover reseal. Most shop manuals will either describe, or even show a picture of where and what size bead of sealant to use. And the type of course. But look at all of the diagrams if offers (and the written procedure if no pics) and NEVER do they tell you to reduce the size bead in a cast inverted corner for example of a VC fitting around the end of the cam. It takes a mechanic who can think outside of the box to realize that, while the instructions might say to use "a 1/8" bead of sealant" and show where it goes, once you get to an inverted corner, you have to reduce the size bead or you can end of with an excess blob of sealant that may hang on for a while in there..but given enough use/heat, will break off ...and guess the many orifices where they can end up, creating oil pressure starvation, long before they might find themselves trapped in filter media.
You can have techs that know a pile of facts and specs and diagnostic ability, but if that knowledge isn't applied correctly, they can still screw your life up...it's just that often it happens well after wty and long down the road. People, are fallible. All of us.
I'm running a couple of sets of asymmetrical Nokians and they say "outside" on the, er, outside of the tire. I think the canola oil leaks out if you install them backwards. It really gets messy when you put them on inside out.
This was in 1985 at the latest, at one of the two exclusive Pirelli dealers in the area. With big posters extolling the virtues of the P77's dual compound technology. They also featured a bright orange band on the inside sidewall that also served as a reminder. That said. Two years later I had aanother set of P77s mounted on a set of BMW steel wheels I had refininished. I used Sam's Club. Didn't say anything about the special mounting to see if they'd get it right without a hint. They nailed it. Not long after that I became an acolyte of Tire Rack, eventually finding a two-man shop that scheduled one car at a time at 30 minute intervals. They were NEVER more than five minutes late, and they only charged $12.50 per tire. That's right; $50 to mount and balance one set. I was fiercely loyal to them and must have sent the a couple of doen customers. Unfortunately the owner became ill and retired, and his son didn't want to take over. Fortunately, a great tire shop opened up less than a mile from Casa Roadburner So far the techs are 8 for 8 mounting asymmetrical(not directional) Cooper Zeon RS3-A UHP A/S tires on my son's X3 and my Mazdaspeed 3.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
>When that top noch mechanic goes to work, many costs have been incurred just to get him there ready to do the job. Here are some of them: service writer, car jockey, special tools, trainings, stationary, lights heat phone, parts, wages and overtime, building maintence, iinsurance, vacations sick pay, supervisory personnel, cashiers and clerks, taxes"
I read that and think it's silly. Most businesses have expenses. That's all a part of their fixed and variable costs. I put that blurb in the same category with the explanation of a "document fee" on a new or used car purchase because it's the same type of explanation. Meaningless.
It's in the same category with another autombile talk radio show I've been catching occasionally from Columbus, Ohio, sponsored by a Honda dealer store taht's part of a large group. One of the 3 talkers just told a new Civic owner that he needed to chagne his oil, regular or synthetic, every 3,000 miles. Since the show is often closer to an infomercial than an informational show of correct information.
Later in the show he responded to a Cadillac DeVille owner who drives 700 miles per week and just switched to synthetic that she needed 5,000 mile oil changes for her highway driving commute. The guy seemed oblivious that the car has an oil mileage sensor that seems one of the best at estimating oil life and also that the car has a low oil sensor in case she doesn't check the oil in between changes.
A car repair place needs to deal in correct information.
I am deeply offended/hurt/wounded An unhappy litigant has been besmirching my good name on his public blog- referring to me as incompetent and inexperienced, not to mention an "idiot". I wish I could supply some excerpts- they are hysterical.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
It's in the same category with another automobile talk radio show I've been catching occasionally from Columbus, Ohio, sponsored by a Honda dealer store that's part of a large group. One of the 3 talkers just told a new Civic owner that he needed to change his oil, regular or synthetic, every 3,000 miles.
My BMW dealer never upsells service; they will perform additional service if you request; I have them change the ATF and final drive(AKA differential) oil every 50k and the coolant every 3-4 years- even though Munich considers both fluids to be a "lifetime fill"
My Mazda dealer lists two service menus- what Mazda requires, and what the dealer recommends. I tend to agree with the dealer recommendations, as they call for changing Mazda's "lifetime" transaxle oil every 30k. New/used car customers also get a free oil change every 5k for as long as they own the car- although I havehey ask me to bring in my own Mobil 1 if I want to use synthetic oil.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
My BMW dealer never upsells service; they will perform additional service if you request; I have them change the ATF and final drive(AKA differential) oil every 50k and the coolant every 3-4 years- even though Munich considers both fluids to be a "lifetime fill"
I've actually heard stories of the opposite persuasion, in which BMW service depts. would all but REFUSE to change some of the lubricants BMW refers to as "lifetime fills".
Of course, every dealership is different. I don't think I would see that behavior at my dealership, but I guess just about anything is possible these days...
I've actually heard stories of the opposite persuasion, in which BMW service depts. would all but REFUSE to change some of the lubricants BMW refers to as "lifetime fills".
A while back someone posted that a dealer SA refused to perform an ATF change(at 60k), claiming it was not necessary and that it might damage the transmission. I told him to ask the guy if that also applied to the 100k ATF change that BMW specifically called for on his car. In fairness to the SA, an ATF change-even a simple drain and fill-is a bit fiddly; you have to hook the car up to the DIS/MODIC/GT1 and read the fluid temperature- you will not get an accurate fluid level measurement at the fill plug unless the ATF temperature is between 30º-50º C. On the upside(for the dealer, not the vehicle owner) many any of the newer automatics use an integrated one piece sump and filter- you swap out the entire assembly: And the newer differentials no longer have a drain plug, which makes that fluid change a little bit more involved as well... :mad:
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
When that top noch mechanic goes to work, many costs have been incurred just to get him there ready to do the job. Here are some of them: service writer, car jockey, special tools, trainings, stationary, lights heat phone, parts, wages and overtime, building maintence, iinsurance, vacations sick pay, supervisory personnel, cashiers and clerks, taxes"
The manager from the shop that charged me $900 for 2 hours worksaid, we have 20 trucks on the road, an office, office people all to pay for, it isn't like we are a small guy who works from his basement.
Well, thanks for the tip, now I will know who to call the next time.
Even worse the restaurant where 34 of us tennis players went for our Holiday Christmas lunch. When we got our bill there was an extra $3 fee added in because the owner had to bring in 2 extra staff to cover our group. Isn't that what restaurants try to do, have more customers, and isn't it a normal expense to bring in staff to cover because of that?
I told the owner if anything we should have had a group rate discount, you don't charge extra because someone is bringing in more customers!
Some people should not be in business.
I do agree, it is ridiculous to mention your overhead expenses as a problem, that is all covered in the price of what you are charging.
r SA refused to perform an ATF change(at 60k), claiming it was not necessary and that it might damage the transmission
I think you are saying this is a good thing, the SA is saying it isn't necessary to do this work at 60K.
It is a good thing. Even if it is a messy job I am sure the BMW dealer wouldn't mind making money on doing an extra oil change. Good for them and that's the way it should be.
No, the guy flat-out wouldn't do it. Another data point: ZF(the manufacturer of many of BMW's automatics) calls for an @50k mile ATF fluid change while BMW says either 100K or not at all...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
No, the guy flat-out wouldn't do it. Another data point: ZF(the manufacturer of many of BMW's automatics) calls for an 50k mile ATF fluid change while BMW says either 100K or not at all...
I'm no engineer, but for the life of me I can't see how exchanging old lubricant/fluids for the same specification lubricant/fluids (in new form, of course) at reasonable time/mileage intervals could possibly cause more issues than it resolves.
Of course, if the technicians aren't really trained adequately and sufficiently, the manufacturer may feel its safer to keep them out of the transmission completely, especially if they fail beyond the warranty period, and the costs is on the owner's back...
I wonder if that's the reason?
So many things in cars now aren't rebuilt at the dealership level any more, so that makes sense to me.
Is that trans covered under warranty to 100K miles? If not I'd find an independent to service it. Sounds like a marketing kind of thing where the manufacturer recommends a different service interval than the company selling the product.
And quantity conformation is not taken nearly serious enough..just recently I stood at parts counter and overheard what was said at the service counter. A SA writing an order for a customer who had come in for an oil change, specifiying he wanted synthetic that came in 1 litre or 946ml jugs. Car took 4.2 litres.. "oh not to worry Mr. I'mtrustingyouwithmycar.., we usually just put in 5 jugs, so if it burns a little you won't have to top up between changes". :sick: So if the customer was lucky, the jugs were 946 ml ea and not the full litre. At least that way he'll only be overfilled and stressing engine seals etc, by 530 ml. But if they were 1 litre size then they overfilled by 800 ml. Almost a frig litre Idiots. And is why I was there to buy parts (an OEM oil filter) rather than have them work on my car..
And all this is not considering that there seems to be so much (too much) emphasis on 'time' to do an oil change..."don't worry sir, we'll have ya outta here in 20 min" At home when I drain my oil pan I do it over the course of at least one entire night of draining. i.e. a good extra 1/2 to 3/4 extra litre of used oil out, including all the worst/densest contaminates near the end of any drain period. So IOW's a really thorough drain..exact opposite of an oil change when the plug is put back in when the stream has not broken into drops.. :sick:
At home when I drain my oil pan I do it over the course of at least one entire night
You drain your oil over the course of at least one night? Meaning you've drained before over a period of 2 or more nights? You sir, would never make it working for Jiffy Lube. :surprise:
Seriously, that's gotta be some kind of record.
Valvoline must of drained my oil for all of 2 minutes one time. Was still NOTICEABLE dirty. Service manager said just leaving a tablespoon of old oil in can make it look that way.
>You sir, would never make it working for Jiffy Lube.
Of course not. You gotta loosen some wheel lugs while you change that oil to work at Jiffy. It's the converse of Tire Kingdom workers loosening oil caps as part of their job.
As for the oil color, letting it drain for more than a minute does get out considerably more dirty oil. I let mine drip for a nominal 15 minutes, sometimes more, sometimes less. Best oil change is after a long drive that gets all the oil circulating in a hot mess. Starting the car and driving it for 2 minutes to the local Jiffy Lube doesn't circulate the dirtiest oil contaminants that settled to the bottom.
Car took 4.2 litres.. "oh not to worry Mr. I'mtrustingyouwithmycar.., we usually just put in 5 jugs, so if it burns a little you won't have to top up between changes".
I'm wondering if there was any part of the conversation that was missed. Shops have run into consumers who see the service description written as "up to five quarts" for $XX and the consumer insists on being given the extra ~half a quart that would be left over.
That's one of the problems with menu prices and why we moved away from them fifteen years ago. With all of the different oils, and all of the different filters we have oil changes that can be done for anywhere from $27.00 to over $100. This eliminates problems at write-up. If someone doesn't understand our approach of having the pricing specifically match their car so that we don't have one customer subsidizing another's service then we wont be a good fit for them.
As far as them just dumping the rest of the fluid in, (not reccomended or practiced by us) most designs today allow for a maximum and a minimum fluid level and while an extra ~half a quart would be above the spec there are cars where that would still be below the maximum. When you look at a dipstick today, many manufacturers have a cross hatched section and anywhere on that is fine. You will see dots or holes on/in the dipstick, those are the min/max points and if there isn't a cross hatch then the proper fill level is typically a quarter to a half an inch below the maximum. Check your owners manual for the correct fill level for your car. NOTE: There is no shortage of consumers who will still turn around and complain that a shop didn't put enough oil in their car if it isn't filled to the maximum point on their dipstick.
So if the customer was lucky, the jugs were 946 ml ea and not the full litre. At least that way he'll only be overfilled and stressing engine seals
Hmmm, now how do I write about what really happens today if one is overfilled and not be the bad guy for the effort?
Was still NOTICEABLE dirty. Service manager said just leaving a tablespoon of old oil in can make it look that way.
I bet more than a tablespoon is left behind when Gimme does a 48 hour oil change too. I don't know what you mean by noticeably dirty but the oil in my Subaru gets "black" as soon as I change it, the van less so. Not sure that it means anything.
I read that and think it's silly. Most businesses have expenses. That's all a part of their fixed and variable costs.
True, and that's one of the biggest problems the trade has. We used to have techs who once fed up with working for someone else could set out on their own because they could fix cars. But like their former boss they also didn't have any business management training, and so they usually made the same mistakes as the person they used to work for. That cycle has essentially repeated itself for decades but in the last fifteen-twenty years the technology in the cars has demanded that the shop owners be able to predict how the CODB (cost of doing business) was going to be impacted and many of them have failed to do that.
When that top noch mechanic goes to work, many costs have been incurred just to get him there ready to do the job.
Absolutely true, and its not understood by the consumers at large, and how could it be when we have shops that are just going through the motions without updating their training and equipment with an eye on simply retiring and closing the doors sometime in the next decade?
Of the following list. I'll strike out what we don't have and put in bold the ones that are a significant financial drain.
Here are some of them: service writer, car jockey, special tools, training, stationary, lights heat phone, parts, wages and overtime, building maintenance, insurance, vacations sick pay, supervisory personnel, cashiers and clerks, taxes
We compete in the marketplace by having complete service for the manufacturers that we support while trying to reasonably control expenses. Now imagine competing when someone else's list looks like this.
service writer, car jockey, special tools, trainings, stationary, lights heat phone, parts, wages and overtime, building maintenance, insurance, vacations sick pay, supervisory personnel, cashiers and clerks, taxes"
I had two shops call me on Friday. One has a Town and Country van that blows a fuse and loses data bus communication, that one we can handle. The other one is a body shop that needs the airbag and passenger presence systems initialized on a 2011 that they just repaired. That one we cannot handle because we cannot justify the expense of the tooling that is required as compared to the projected return. If we did support that tool and its expiring software (to the tune of $7000 initial purchase and mandatory yearly updates of about $1700) we would have to pass most of that cost onto the other customers. The tool and software wouldn't generate the revenues required to pay for itself, let alone the time that it takes to use it and perform the service.
I bet more than a tablespoon is left behind when Gimme does a 48 hour oil change too. I don't know what you mean by noticeably dirty but the oil in my Subaru gets "black" as soon as I change it, the van less so. Not sure that it means anything.
It just depends on the car. My 04 Grand Marquis with 80k always looks clean. The 2012 LaCrosse looks gross a few hundred after a change. That car only has about 17k.
Doc's Accelerated Oil Change Shack - "We put your car on a turntable for 15 minutes to sling all the bad oil out of every nook and cranny".
Sounds even more impressive than a power flush. Probably wouldn't be too tough to rig up a centrifuge out of spare transaxles lying around. Leave the kiddies inside for a fun ride.
Sounds like my cars, reversed. My modern cars have always kept the oil clean in between changes, but the fintail turns it dark after a few hundred miles. I had the engine apart and cleaned up too...well, that was 17 years ago, time flies :shades:
Ok...looks like we are going to get into this even deeper than I sorta wanted to confess, but why shy away from from even more of the full story surrounding my oil changes..
Beware..the following post may reveal a bit of what some (probably most/all, lol) may perceive as a little OCD behaviour. But these extremes that I'm going to confess to having done on many oil changes over the years, were not done because I feared engine or mechanical failures if I didn't...I just did it cuz I could and without any negative ramifications..only positive ones in fact, as the law of averages always prevails.
- I (almost) always try to plan an oil change when I get back from town or farther. If town, then a 35 to 40 min drive. If it doesn't work out that way, then I do start it and let it run for quite awhile at the expense of it affecting the FE on that tank. I've never timed it, but probably a good 15 min or so....longer if in the winter but I do try to plan my changes in the spring and fall. I'll go and bring wood in or what ever during that time..or maybe check tire PSI's, lube my hinges and hood catch, squirt some Rust Check in a couple places where the unibody is poorly designed and has a valley that holds salt where the main sub frame bolts on in places. Or even start my entries in my maintenance records..that sorta thing.
- aside from the usual routine of an oil change, I do a few extra precautions that really are only going to happen when the owner of the car himself has control over...unless he wants to pay for his oil change by the hour to some shop.
- one of the them is, I have made a couple of special shrouds out of a tin foil turkey baster pan. One, is to protect the CV joint boot from used oil saturating it. The filter on the CRV is at the back of the engine and is in the WORST position to reach (and deal with used oil once loosened) of any vehicle I have ever owned...and there have been a lot..I freakin' hate doing a change on the damn thing. Next, I take another long 'ramp' type shroud and place it using frig small spring clamps because it won't frig stay in place if I don't, right up next to the base of the filter under a precious small amt of aluminum block flange that extends just a little bit out. It's not much, but it helps grab the oil by capillary and directs the vast majority of it down the ramp into drain pan #1. If I get shroud #1 placed well enough, (you're literally working blind and by feel to get both shrouds up there and in place unless you remove the right front tire) then I can eliminate drain pan #2. Pan #3 is the main one for the crankcase..
- watch you don't cook the back of your hand on the frig exhaust manifold...gawd I hate this car...
- so in order to get a clean shot at the filter, using either a ribbon wrench or a cap wrench, I have to use a series of 3/8 drive extensions and one universal joint, threaded down through suspension bits and frame rails to the bottom of the car where I'm sorta jammed in and laying (unless I drive onto 4 2x6's to give me an extra 1.5 " which have done sometimes but not always) If its winter and I have my insulated coveralls on I usually need that extra 1.5 ". While the assortment of extensions sound like a pain, (there's about 18 to 20" worth of them) it is the easier of the two methods to get the filter off. I had to use a ribbon wrench the first time after I had bought the car used. Some [non-permissible content removed] had put it on without oil I suspect. I always wipe that meeting flange clean and use new oil which, while it is frig almost impossible to get your arms up in there and then contort your fingers and wrist to get a circular motion happening, and all the while clamps and sharp bits trying to grab at your sleeves, I do this so I can stay on top avoiding the circular electrolysis mark left on the aluminum on the outskirts of where the O ring seats. I always run my finger around the entire circumference of that flange to confirm I haven't knocked a speck of splash gravel from somewhere above there on the block or filter itself. Yes...some would consider that we have started to enter into anal territory. But I don't care. I like to have a good feeling about every aspect of the oil change and not feel like I wish I had taken the time to do x..like...I only do two of these a year on the car ( I use synthetic) so do 'er in a way you will good about for 6 months. It's not that big a deal.. to me anyway.. Haha, I realize how contradictory that last statement must sound..
Anyway, also, using the damn oil cap wrench method, the damn cheap (but wasn't really...licensing maybe behind the price?...I dunno) CTC plastic or some type of plastic cap that is suppose to fit these filter sizes, doesn't. It has enough grip to torque a new filter on, but in order to use it to remove an old filter I have discovered the easier way to firm it up on the end of the filter is to lay 2-3 layers of newspaper inside the cap before placing it on the end of the filter. Then you have to push in on it fairly hard as you are turning it too. Not easy to push in on it cuz of the damn universal joint being in the equation.. Now I know this whole extra process could be eliminated I guess if I broke down and invested in another new cap wrench that fit better. I should price one from Honda, cuz that is probably the only one that will fit this filter the way it is suppose to..Nonetheless, this method is still easier than trying to use the ribbon wrench up in there.
Ok, so you think we are ready to drain yet? Yup, we are, but even the drain process has other options that...admittedly I have only done once on the car but numerous times on one of the bikes (cuz fairly easy on that bike), cuz even I recognize over kill...hahaha...hey...no eye-rolling or snorts back there in the cheap seats, eh?!!! Ok, so a couple times I actually have jacked the car a little at the front for a night. At the rear for a night. Left fr corner...right fr corner...you get the picture..Now before you condemn me to a life of being restrained in nylon straps in a hospital, claiming certifiability (I know, a neoterism), haha...I did have a reason. Just once, I wanted to see how much more oil I got out and how much cleaner/longer, would the new oil look for the effort. I did get an extra 150 ml or so out, so not a lot extra on that change, but quite a bit more than a tablespoon. Even with those extra ridiculous steps, there are still tons of places inside the engine that going to hold a pile of used oil still. Mostly I was curious cuz I had been doing it on the ST out of necessity (well...my necessity...I discovered on that thing that if you don't pry down on the back (lift the front wheel up as high as it will go while on the centre stand) and tilt it to the right for a night, then to the left for night, the engine retains a LOT of used oil. It's a V4. About 700 ml and the less an engine holds the more that amt matters..in my books anyway. And I do really rev the
And I do really rev the bike hard. High revs/ high speeds, and for sustained periods...or at least used to...I don't really do that anymore...for a number of reasons but some of which I'm not a young buck with the faster reflexes/eyesight anymore..etc..
- I also take my new oil and put it beside the wood stove to warm it up so it is a bit easier to pour in.
- and this particular process I have done for about 10 years, but when I drain a jug, I prop it up so that it totally drains...including what I have always assumed were the additives they put in oil. I'm talking about that darker coloured residue that is always left behind in the bottom of a jug of oil. You really notice it if the oil jugs are light coloured. You won't at all if they are black. And the most residue is if the jug is a gal jug or more naturally.
This last one I am especially curious to get opinions from any potential oil experts on here...am I assuming correctly that that residue is in fact some of the additives? I admit I sorta ruled out that it was debris of any negative sort.. or otherwise...considering the lengths I go to to do an oil change...I sure am shooting myself in the foot if that stuff isn't what I think it is.. :surprise:
Comments
If I pay someone to come out and fix my heat pump, and they leave without it being fixed... do you really expect any sane person to call them back and and let them try again?
While a nice utopian idea that consumers should forgive mid to major errors and stay loyal to the shops shops that do so, it's not realistic. You don't seem to understand, or don't want to, that some mistakes are forgivable... and some aren't. The vast majority of people would do exactly as roadburner did. You're trying to make him sound like the spawn of satan... just for taking his business elsewhere.
THAT should be the first step in ANY diagnosis. Why? Because:
1. Someone could have done something, but done it incorrectly or called it by the wrong name ("I replaced that sensor....oops I meant relay")
2. New parts can be bad out of the box ("We just put in a new X, so it CAN'T be that!.....oh, no?
3. Anecdotal evidence is notoriously unreliable.
A tire installer the mis-mounts a tire that simply causes a car to pull to one side is ALWAYS going to be treated differently than if the same mistake caused a blowout, resulting in numerous fatalities.
Same mistake, very different results.
While the logic of saying the act of the mis-mounted tire is no different than the act of anyone else dialing a wrong number, society in general will make its assessment based on the outcome of the error.
Perhaps that's why you'll rarely hear someone try to whitewash an incident resulting in a disastrous outcome as being on the same par as dialing a wrong number. IMO, that sounds like an excellent way to enjoy the experience of being tarred and feathered, then run out of town on a rail.
So just how grave of an error is an incorrectly mounted directional tire?
The thing about directional tires is their ability to pump water out from underneath the tire and reduce the likelihood of hydro planing. That's an important job no doubt for people who's driving habits could have them encountering standing water at highway speeds (or higher). Keep in mind most drivers have enough common sense to slow down in bad conditions which also has an impact on the likelihood of hydroplaning. In some cases the use of the directional tire helps improve traction in wet conditions which would otherwise be lost because of the weight of the vehicle and the wider tires that the engineers designed the car to use and certain drivers desire. Most of the tires that meet my Mustang GT's specs are indeed directional. Keep in mind the word "most". The Bridgestone Potenza's that I put on my car exceed my car's specifications and they are not directional. In fact they also outperform almost all of the other tires that are directional in just about all conditions. Now in deep standing water, a full directional will make a difference, except that I would not be going as fast anyway as I would be in good conditions so that makes them have no net advantage for me anyway.
The loss of torque which is what you are describing can easily be something keeping the engine from pumping air as much as it should. One of the checks that we do (and it's how I can prove if a fancy air filter actually made a difference or not) comes back to recording the PCM's engine load calculation and by computing the volumetric efficiency ratio (actual VS measured by the MAF if used). That information is cross checked by the fuel trim compensations and spark timing map being reported in the scan data.
The roughness of the engine would first be examined to see if it can be narrowed down to one cylinder or not. From there if you really thought that the cam timing was off I would take a running compression test with my pressure transducer and plot out the waveform and actually measure the valve timing events. You could have the cam be out of time, while the timing marks on the gears line up. Sometimes we run into sheared or bent timing gear pin, or a wallowed out key way on the crank gear. Now of course you could be talking about the belt being off a tooth too but that should have a significant impact on driveability as well as your mileage.
Your mileage variations are too small to be a concern. Any change in idling time, or a change in alcohol content of the fuel could cause your mileage to vary even more than what you measured.
I want to tie this behavior in with the timing belt but maybe it's just a coincidence?
Don't know, test and find out and then look back at the history.
The Civic uses 0w-20 oil, which some say is synthetic and some say it isnt. But, since the first oil change is free, I brought it in. I asked the service tech about the screen discrepancy on when to change the oil , he stated the dealership recommends oil changes every 5,000 miles. Said some people have had problems waiting too long to change oil when looking at on screen oil life monitor. He didn't address the screen discrepancy, so I guess he didnt know.
Anyhow, had pretty good service. I made the appointment at 9:30am. Got to the dealership at my 11:30 a.m apt. time, and I was literally driving off their lot at 11:57a.m.
No free doughnuts though.
On the back of my invoice I saw something interesting that reminded me of cardoc's and a few others preachings: "What goes into the cost of servicing your automobile: Good service just doesn't happen. Operating a dependable service business requires organization, competent management and a substantial capital investment. So dont judge service charges soley by the time spend repairing your car. When that top noch mechanic goes to work, many costs have been incurred just to get him there ready to do the job. Here are some of them: service writer, car jockey, special tools, trainings, stationary, lights heat phone, parts, wages and overtime, building maintence, iinsurance, vacations sick pay, supervisory personnel, cashiers and clerks, taxes"
I think that's a pretty good idea on trying to educate their customers...not everybody partronises the edmunds forums. :sick:
Also, mabe this is why cardoc can charge less than his competitors. He is a one man operation without all those extra expenses.
Its RB's use of derogatory terms that got him my attention. His choice of not using that HVAC service is of course his choice. His reasoning doesn't hold up under close examination, but he's still free to make choices whether they are rational to me or not. Plus being an open forum, I'm supposed to be able to post my opinions too, right? Or does my being a tech mean that I'm not worthy and I should know my place?
Back to directional tires, other than hydroplaning in "deep" water, running them backwards may not make much difference to the average driver (tirerack).
And finally, GM is going to give 2 years of oil changes with new cars sales starting with 2014 models. So there's going to be even less "easy money" routine work for the garages to use to pay their overhead.
The closest shops around me have rates lower than mine. They keep the street prices so low that no-one would survive without being very creative. I have a niche. I do the nightmare work that would eat everybody else's lunch. When we talk about random failures and intermittents I make my living figuring out how to solve those problems in an efficient manor. That's why my perspective on RB's heat pump system problem is different than most everyone else's.
That really low street price still forces me work more hours than I should, plus I subsidize the shop with the teaching. In fact many of the cars that I work with get used as case studies for training classes for other techs. That's one of the ways that I share what I have figured out. I'm just one of about a hundred full time techs around the country who do that.
NEW OBSERVATIONS:
1. cooling fan cycles rapidly once engine reaches operating temp. 5 seconds ON, 20 seconds OFF, with clockwork precision
2. Vents "seem" cooler upon long deceleration
ANY MORE IDEAS on what's my problem?
On an incorrectly mounted directional tire, you're correct... Not very grave.
But, I didn't say incorrectly mounted directional tire.
I said...
mis-mounted tire
To quote myself...
A tire installer that mis-mounts a tire that simply causes a car to pull to one side is ALWAYS going to be treated differently than if the same mistake caused a blowout, resulting in numerous fatalities.
Mis-mounted can include all sorts of other errors, such as under-inflation, over-inflation, improper repair, etc.
Even with that, my point still holds true. People are judged on the results of their mistakes far more than they are on the potential results of their mistakes.
True. Take my tire balancing issue I had with Big O. If I don't notice the poorly balanced tires the day before, and pull out onto the expressway on my way to Gatlingburg with a wheel wobble so bad its shaking the fillings out of my teeth, what would my reaction have been? Well, probably not very pleasant. Push your vacation back the 2-4 hours it would take to remedy the problem, while trying to entertain a car load of wild savages (i.e children), and the judgment would be much harsher... in anyones book.
Does this 5/20 cycle happen when the A/C is off also?
Again, I suggest in investing in a Class II laser temp gun. They have come down in price dramatically in the last decade. Back in 1999 or 2000 I pd over 400. for mine but I use it often. You could use it (besides suspecting cooler vent temps on deceleration) to check the swings in temp of the thermostat opening and closing, or depending on readings, it might indicate that it is not fully opening or closing. I suspect opening tho given your info so far.
I know by even commenting here I leave myself open to ridicule because doc doesn't have much use for shade tree mechanics and I have openly confessed I fall into that category. He hates it when online internet opinions "just get tossed out there". I'm tossing though because at least I'm tossing in a direction where I know I'm not dealing with an idiot, so that person can better interpret any of my thoughts on the issue.
Besides, ridicule all you want doc..instead of being offended, I'm more flattered, because every once in awhile my suggestions come very close to the crux. Most recently (altho I didn't get any credit) (but then...also didn't expect any from you either) were corroded wiring connections..
I doubt doc would consider it ridicule... He just lives in a different world when it comes to car repair, no different than Neil deGrasse Tyson might respond if we started throwing out our less-than-qualified opinions on Astrophysics.
In my experience, there isn't much more frustrating than seeing someone making comments on subjects they know nothing about. I'm not suggesting that applies to you at all on the subject, but on the Internet, its hard to see the guy posting on the other end.
I can't relate how many times I've seen posters on forums throw out comments as if they were fact, but instead really just someone blowing smoke.
In this example, without going back for specific quotes, but more than one of my ideas were exactly inline with some of what doc said later. And that is just two guys trying to interpret over the internet. Both at a disadvantage of course, but one of us at a huge disadvantage (me) cuz I'm nowhere near the trained professional in his trade that he is. Doesn't mean I'm way off though at times..and if I am, I am the first to be humbled and learn from it.
I only mentioned the potential for me being on the receiving end of potential ridicule, cuz doc does tend to clump all who are not in his class, together.
Hope my reply didn't come off as defensive, cuz I didn't interpret your post in any way as my having a desire to be so.
Just like the no-start where you have to start your testing by forgetting what was done previously, this is no different. You don't have the desired cooling level so something is wrong. Start testing the system again as if its never been touched and see where it leads you. That actually includes test the refrigerant for contaminaton. (air or other non-condensables) Test for AC sealants. Test/inspect mode and temperature door operation.,
You can have techs that know a pile of facts and specs and diagnostic ability, but if that knowledge isn't applied correctly, they can still screw your life up...it's just that often it happens well after wty and long down the road. People, are fallible. All of us.
Just sayin'..
I think this is a great place to learn a few things...
So... not many directional tires around at that point..
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Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Only Mercedes makes anything remotely truck like of the German brands.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I read that and think it's silly. Most businesses have expenses. That's all a part of their fixed and variable costs. I put that blurb in the same category with the explanation of a "document fee" on a new or used car purchase because it's the same type of explanation. Meaningless.
It's in the same category with another autombile talk radio show I've been catching occasionally from Columbus, Ohio, sponsored by a Honda dealer store taht's part of a large group. One of the 3 talkers just told a new Civic owner that he needed to chagne his oil, regular or synthetic, every 3,000 miles. Since the show is often closer to an infomercial than an informational show of correct information.
Later in the show he responded to a Cadillac DeVille owner who drives 700 miles per week and just switched to synthetic that she needed 5,000 mile oil changes for her highway driving commute. The guy seemed oblivious that the car has an oil mileage sensor that seems one of the best at estimating oil life and also that the car has a low oil sensor in case she doesn't check the oil in between changes.
A car repair place needs to deal in correct information.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I am deeply offended/hurt/wounded
An unhappy litigant has been besmirching my good name on his public blog- referring to me as incompetent and inexperienced, not to mention an "idiot".
I wish I could supply some excerpts- they are hysterical.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
My BMW dealer never upsells service; they will perform additional service if you request; I have them change the ATF and final drive(AKA differential) oil every 50k and the coolant every 3-4 years- even though Munich considers both fluids to be a "lifetime fill"
My Mazda dealer lists two service menus- what Mazda requires, and what the dealer recommends. I tend to agree with the dealer recommendations, as they call for changing Mazda's "lifetime" transaxle oil every 30k. New/used car customers also get a free oil change every 5k for as long as they own the car- although I havehey ask me to bring in my own Mobil 1 if I want to use synthetic oil.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I've actually heard stories of the opposite persuasion, in which BMW service depts. would all but REFUSE to change some of the lubricants BMW refers to as "lifetime fills".
Of course, every dealership is different. I don't think I would see that behavior at my dealership, but I guess just about anything is possible these days...
A while back someone posted that a dealer SA refused to perform an ATF change(at 60k), claiming it was not necessary and that it might damage the transmission. I told him to ask the guy if that also applied to the 100k ATF change that BMW specifically called for on his car. In fairness to the SA, an ATF change-even a simple drain and fill-is a bit fiddly; you have to hook the car up to the DIS/MODIC/GT1 and read the fluid temperature- you will not get an accurate fluid level measurement at the fill plug unless the ATF temperature is between 30º-50º C. On the upside(for the dealer, not the vehicle owner) many any of the newer automatics use an integrated one piece sump and filter- you swap out the entire assembly:
And the newer differentials no longer have a drain plug, which makes that fluid change a little bit more involved as well... :mad:
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
The manager from the shop that charged me $900 for 2 hours worksaid, we have 20 trucks on the road, an office, office people all to pay for, it isn't like we are a small guy who works from his basement.
Well, thanks for the tip, now I will know who to call the next time.
Even worse the restaurant where 34 of us tennis players went for our Holiday Christmas lunch. When we got our bill there was an extra $3 fee added in because the owner had to bring in 2 extra staff to cover our group. Isn't that what restaurants try to do, have more customers, and isn't it a normal expense to bring in staff to cover because of that?
I told the owner if anything we should have had a group rate discount, you don't charge extra because someone is bringing in more customers!
Some people should not be in business.
I do agree, it is ridiculous to mention your overhead expenses as a problem, that is all covered in the price of what you are charging.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I think you are saying this is a good thing, the SA is saying it isn't necessary to do this work at 60K.
It is a good thing. Even if it is a messy job I am sure the BMW dealer wouldn't mind making money on doing an extra oil change. Good for them and that's the way it should be.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I'm no engineer, but for the life of me I can't see how exchanging old lubricant/fluids for the same specification lubricant/fluids (in new form, of course) at reasonable time/mileage intervals could possibly cause more issues than it resolves.
Of course, if the technicians aren't really trained adequately and sufficiently, the manufacturer may feel its safer to keep them out of the transmission completely, especially if they fail beyond the warranty period, and the costs is on the owner's back...
I wonder if that's the reason?
So many things in cars now aren't rebuilt at the dealership level any more, so that makes sense to me.
I think you nailed it.
And quantity conformation is not taken nearly serious enough..just recently I stood at parts counter and overheard what was said at the service counter. A SA writing an order for a customer who had come in for an oil change, specifiying he wanted synthetic that came in 1 litre or 946ml jugs. Car took 4.2 litres.. "oh not to worry Mr. I'mtrustingyouwithmycar.., we usually just put in 5 jugs, so if it burns a little you won't have to top up between changes". :sick: So if the customer was lucky, the jugs were 946 ml ea and not the full litre. At least that way he'll only be overfilled and stressing engine seals etc, by 530 ml. But if they were 1 litre size then they overfilled by 800 ml. Almost a frig litre
And all this is not considering that there seems to be so much (too much) emphasis on 'time' to do an oil change..."don't worry sir, we'll have ya outta here in 20 min"
At home when I drain my oil pan I do it over the course of at least one entire night of draining. i.e. a good extra 1/2 to 3/4 extra litre of used oil out, including all the worst/densest contaminates near the end of any drain period. So IOW's a really thorough drain..exact opposite of an oil change when the plug is put back in when the stream has not broken into drops.. :sick:
I do like the idea, the more crud you can let drain out the better.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
Although my habit is the same in the winter but I do it when I know I don't have to go anywhere.. :shades:
You drain your oil over the course of at least one night? Meaning you've drained before over a period of 2 or more nights? You sir, would never make it working for Jiffy Lube. :surprise:
Seriously, that's gotta be some kind of record.
Valvoline must of drained my oil for all of 2 minutes one time. Was still NOTICEABLE dirty. Service manager said just leaving a tablespoon of old oil in can make it look that way.
Of course not. You gotta loosen some wheel lugs while you change that oil to work at Jiffy. It's the converse of Tire Kingdom workers loosening oil caps as part of their job.
As for the oil color, letting it drain for more than a minute does get out considerably more dirty oil. I let mine drip for a nominal 15 minutes, sometimes more, sometimes less. Best oil change is after a long drive that gets all the oil circulating in a hot mess. Starting the car and driving it for 2 minutes to the local Jiffy Lube doesn't circulate the dirtiest oil contaminants that settled to the bottom.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm wondering if there was any part of the conversation that was missed. Shops have run into consumers who see the service description written as "up to five quarts" for $XX and the consumer insists on being given the extra ~half a quart that would be left over.
That's one of the problems with menu prices and why we moved away from them fifteen years ago. With all of the different oils, and all of the different filters we have oil changes that can be done for anywhere from $27.00 to over $100. This eliminates problems at write-up. If someone doesn't understand our approach of having the pricing specifically match their car so that we don't have one customer subsidizing another's service then we wont be a good fit for them.
As far as them just dumping the rest of the fluid in, (not reccomended or practiced by us) most designs today allow for a maximum and a minimum fluid level and while an extra ~half a quart would be above the spec there are cars where that would still be below the maximum. When you look at a dipstick today, many manufacturers have a cross hatched section and anywhere on that is fine. You will see dots or holes on/in the dipstick, those are the min/max points and if there isn't a cross hatch then the proper fill level is typically a quarter to a half an inch below the maximum. Check your owners manual for the correct fill level for your car. NOTE: There is no shortage of consumers who will still turn around and complain that a shop didn't put enough oil in their car if it isn't filled to the maximum point on their dipstick.
So if the customer was lucky, the jugs were 946 ml ea and not the full litre. At least that way he'll only be overfilled and stressing engine seals
Hmmm, now how do I write about what really happens today if one is overfilled and not be the bad guy for the effort?
I bet more than a tablespoon is left behind when Gimme does a 48 hour oil change too. I don't know what you mean by noticeably dirty but the oil in my Subaru gets "black" as soon as I change it, the van less so. Not sure that it means anything.
True, and that's one of the biggest problems the trade has. We used to have techs who once fed up with working for someone else could set out on their own because they could fix cars. But like their former boss they also didn't have any business management training, and so they usually made the same mistakes as the person they used to work for. That cycle has essentially repeated itself for decades but in the last fifteen-twenty years the technology in the cars has demanded that the shop owners be able to predict how the CODB (cost of doing business) was going to be impacted and many of them have failed to do that.
When that top noch mechanic goes to work, many costs have been incurred just to get him there ready to do the job.
Absolutely true, and its not understood by the consumers at large, and how could it be when we have shops that are just going through the motions without updating their training and equipment with an eye on simply retiring and closing the doors sometime in the next decade?
Of the following list. I'll strike out what we don't have and put in bold the ones that are a significant financial drain.
Here are some of them:
service writer,car jockey, special tools, training, stationary, lights heat phone, parts, wagesand overtime, building maintenance, insurance,vacations sick pay, supervisory personnel, cashiers and clerks, taxesWe compete in the marketplace by having complete service for the manufacturers that we support while trying to reasonably control expenses. Now imagine competing when someone else's list looks like this.
service writer, car jockey, special tools, trainings,stationary, lightsheatphone, parts, wagesand overtime,building maintenance,insurance, vacations sick pay, supervisory personnel, cashiers and clerks, taxes"I had two shops call me on Friday. One has a Town and Country van that blows a fuse and loses data bus communication, that one we can handle. The other one is a body shop that needs the airbag and passenger presence systems initialized on a 2011 that they just repaired. That one we cannot handle because we cannot justify the expense of the tooling that is required as compared to the projected return. If we did support that tool and its expiring software (to the tune of $7000 initial purchase and mandatory yearly updates of about $1700) we would have to pass most of that cost onto the other customers. The tool and software wouldn't generate the revenues required to pay for itself, let alone the time that it takes to use it and perform the service.
It just depends on the car. My 04 Grand Marquis with 80k always looks clean. The 2012 LaCrosse looks gross a few hundred after a change. That car only has about 17k.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
Doc's Accelerated Oil Change Shack - "We put your car on a turntable for 15 minutes to sling all the bad oil out of every nook and cranny".
Sounds even more impressive than a power flush. Probably wouldn't be too tough to rig up a centrifuge out of spare transaxles lying around. Leave the kiddies inside for a fun ride.
What oil has been getting used in it?
Beware..the following post may reveal a bit of what some (probably most/all, lol) may perceive as a little OCD behaviour. But these extremes that I'm going to confess to having done on many oil changes over the years, were not done because I feared engine or mechanical failures if I didn't...I just did it cuz I could and without any negative ramifications..only positive ones in fact, as the law of averages always prevails.
- I (almost) always try to plan an oil change when I get back from town or farther. If town, then a 35 to 40 min drive. If it doesn't work out that way, then I do start it and let it run for quite awhile at the expense of it affecting the FE on that tank. I've never timed it, but probably a good 15 min or so....longer if in the winter but I do try to plan my changes in the spring and fall. I'll go and bring wood in or what ever during that time..or maybe check tire PSI's, lube my hinges and hood catch, squirt some Rust Check in a couple places where the unibody is poorly designed and has a valley that holds salt where the main sub frame bolts on in places. Or even start my entries in my maintenance records..that sorta thing.
- aside from the usual routine of an oil change, I do a few extra precautions that really are only going to happen when the owner of the car himself has control over...unless he wants to pay for his oil change by the hour to some shop.
- one of the them is, I have made a couple of special shrouds out of a tin foil turkey baster pan. One, is to protect the CV joint boot from used oil saturating it. The filter on the CRV is at the back of the engine and is in the WORST position to reach (and deal with used oil once loosened) of any vehicle I have ever owned...and there have been a lot..I freakin' hate doing a change on the damn thing. Next, I take another long 'ramp' type shroud and place it using frig small spring clamps
- watch you don't cook the back of your hand on the frig exhaust manifold...gawd I hate this car...
- so in order to get a clean shot at the filter, using either a ribbon wrench or a cap wrench, I have to use a series of 3/8 drive extensions and one universal joint, threaded down through suspension bits and frame rails to the bottom of the car where I'm sorta jammed in and laying (unless I drive onto 4 2x6's to give me an extra 1.5 " which have done sometimes but not always) If its winter and I have my insulated coveralls on I usually need that extra 1.5 ". While the assortment of extensions sound like a pain, (there's about 18 to 20" worth of them) it is the easier of the two methods to get the filter off. I had to use a ribbon wrench the first time after I had bought the car used. Some [non-permissible content removed] had put it on without oil I suspect. I always wipe that meeting flange clean and use new oil which, while it is frig almost impossible to get your arms up in there and then contort your fingers and wrist to get a circular motion happening, and all the while clamps and sharp bits trying to grab at your sleeves, I do this so I can stay on top avoiding the circular electrolysis mark left on the aluminum on the outskirts of where the O ring seats. I always run my finger around the entire circumference of that flange to confirm I haven't knocked a speck of splash gravel from somewhere above there on the block or filter itself. Yes...some would consider that we have started to enter into anal territory. But I don't care. I like to have a good feeling about every aspect of the oil change and not feel like I wish I had taken the time to do x..like...I only do two of these a year on the car ( I use synthetic) so do 'er in a way you will good about for 6 months. It's not that big a deal.. to me anyway..
Haha, I realize how contradictory that last statement must sound..
Anyway, also, using the damn oil cap wrench method, the damn cheap (but wasn't really...licensing maybe behind the price?...I dunno) CTC plastic or some type of plastic cap that is suppose to fit these filter sizes, doesn't. It has enough grip to torque a new filter on, but in order to use it to remove an old filter I have discovered the easier way to firm it up on the end of the filter is to lay 2-3 layers of newspaper inside the cap before placing it on the end of the filter. Then you have to push in on it fairly hard as you are turning it too. Not easy to push in on it cuz of the damn universal joint being in the equation.. Now I know this whole extra process could be eliminated I guess if I broke down and invested in another new cap wrench that fit better. I should price one from Honda, cuz that is probably the only one that will fit this filter the way it is suppose to..Nonetheless, this method is still easier than trying to use the ribbon wrench up in there.
Ok, so you think we are ready to drain yet? Yup, we are, but even the drain process has other options that...admittedly I have only done once on the car but numerous times on one of the bikes (cuz fairly easy on that bike), cuz even I recognize over kill...hahaha...hey...no eye-rolling or snorts back there in the cheap seats, eh?!!! Ok, so a couple times I actually have jacked the car a little at the front for a night. At the rear for a night. Left fr corner...right fr corner...you get the picture..Now before you condemn me to a life of being restrained in nylon straps in a hospital, claiming certifiability (I know, a neoterism), haha...I did have a reason. Just once, I wanted to see how much more oil I got out and how much cleaner/longer, would the new oil look for the effort. I did get an extra 150 ml or so out, so not a lot extra on that change, but quite a bit more than a tablespoon. Even with those extra ridiculous steps, there are still tons of places inside the engine that going to hold a pile of used oil still. Mostly I was curious cuz I had been doing it on the ST out of necessity (well...my necessity...I discovered on that thing that if you don't pry down on the back (lift the front wheel up as high as it will go while on the centre stand) and tilt it to the right for a night, then to the left for night, the engine retains a LOT of used oil. It's a V4. About 700 ml and the less an engine holds the more that amt matters..in my books anyway. And I do really rev the
- I also take my new oil and put it beside the wood stove to warm it up so it is a bit easier to pour in.
- and this particular process I have done for about 10 years, but when I drain a jug, I prop it up so that it totally drains...including what I have always assumed were the additives they put in oil. I'm talking about that darker coloured residue that is always left behind in the bottom of a jug of oil. You really notice it if the oil jugs are light coloured. You won't at all if they are black. And the most residue is if the jug is a gal jug or more naturally.
This last one I am especially curious to get opinions from any potential oil experts on here...am I assuming correctly that that residue is in fact some of the additives? I admit I sorta ruled out that it was debris of any negative sort.. or otherwise...considering the lengths I go to to do an oil change...I sure am shooting myself in the foot if that stuff isn't what I think it is.. :surprise: