couple that with long hours at a job that you constantly describe as riddled with no-win scenarios and I'd be ready to jump off a bridge as well
It's easy to tell when you know your losing, you can't keep your concentration on the subject and you get more ignorant and personal with your attacks.
and the coil froze again within a day or two
Maybe my reading comprehension does need some work, someone help me out here. For the coil to freeze again doesn't the coil have to not be frozen at the time that the first tech was looking at it?
For the next tech to get to verify the concern, the coil has to be frozen at that time, right?
That's two different circumstances in my book. The system has a problem, no debate there because you wouldn't have called them otherwise. But its random and not acting up all of the time.
"honest professionals" who can't fix the problem.
Can't fix the problem, or didn't get to fix the problem? There's a big difference between those two thoughts.
It's too bad that you can't enjoy your life.
Hmmm. Today, yea on a Sunday I got to call an older fellow who needs to rely on a 1993 Cadillac to still get around. It's been shutting down on him randomly and several other techs had taken a look and eventually sent him my way. After a considerable effort and a very patient approach I isolated the circuit that was failing and causing the EST system to stop controlling the spark. The sound of his voice when I told him that had I found the problem was worth all the effort it ever took to be able to do it for him. But no, we will never have a fancy house and all of the cars and other worldly things you treasure. I won't know a retirement like most everyone else as I fully expect to work until my last day. We went on a full weeks vacation for the first time since we got married last year just before my wife's surgery and no, we don't have any idea if or when we will ever get to take one again. But you have no right to make statements like you did on that last response. If I launched off and wrote what should really be said to you I would only succeed in lowering myself to your level. Your not going to get me to do that.
Drive the BMW you are interested in for a day or so if possible. If you don't like it better than your Buick-and if you don't there is NOTHING wrong with that-I'd stick with car from Lansing
As a BMW owner, I completely agree with that statement.
Our bear didn't pay us much attention. The raccoon stuck its head out from underneath the steps and crawled up on deck when I was getting ready to get in the hot tub. I chased it off with the tub cleaning pole. :P
He kept coming back. Scraggly lookin thing. Thought it might have rabies. Just very hungry I guess.
Maybe my reading comprehension does need some work, someone help me out here. For the coil to freeze again doesn't the coil have to not be frozen at the time that the first tech was looking at it?
For the next tech to get to verify the concern, the coil has to be frozen at that time, right?
The coil wasn't frozen either time. The second tech verified theproblem by testing the defrost board. The first guy only checked the freon levels and inlet/outlet temps. Now do you get it?
If I launched off and wrote what should really be said to you I would only succeed in lowering myself to your level. Your not going to get me to do that.
Drat!!!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I began to hear a few complaints about the shop but I had not experienced any problems and continued to use them. One winter day the heat pump wasn't working. I checked the outside unit and found the coil to be completely frozen. I called the shop and the next day they sent out a very young tech. He checked the freon level and inlet and outlet temps and announced he couldn't find anything wrong, and to call if it happened again.
The coil wasn't frozen either time. The second tech verified theproblem by testing the defrost board. The first guy only checked the freon levels and inlet/outlet temps. Now do you get it?
Yea I get it, that's two different stories, make that three now.
So how did the coil go from being frozen solid in the middle of winter to not being frozen in one day, twice, unless something about the circumstances changed?
By now you have had time to understand what srs went through when he had to wrestle with his system. I saw where you insisted that the tech only checked the refrigerant and the "inlet and outlet" temps and when you really understand how these work we have a little thing at play called circumstantial evidence, ever hear of it? The only way for you to have observed the coil being frozen and then it not be frozen the next day is that some how something changed and your system was presenting a random condition, and when the tech "announced he couldn't find anything wrong, and to call if it happened again" implys that the rest of the fan controls were working correctly at that time too. The only thing missing is what was really said by the tech on that day, but the frozen coil evidence makes up for that.
Essentially your heat pump doesn't work any different than an AC system does. The engineers take advantage of the principles of latent heat to draw heat from one area and pump it to a second. The component surface temperatures change depending on mode of operation and how much heat is being moved. When the coil outside is taking heat from the outside the system has to take the refrigerant and drop its boiling point inside the condensor coil below the ambient temperature to make it pick up heat. (Technically speaking its now the evaporator coil) When the tech measures the temperature of the coil, that's exactly what he see's when the system is in the heat pump mode. When the system is in the AC mode the system raises the boiling point of the refrigerant inside the condensor so that it can give off the heat that it picked up inside the home. In that mode the condensor fan would have run to cool the condensor coil off. In defrost mode as srs pointed out, the condensor fan has to stop running and that assists in raising the refrigerent's boiling temperature well above the ambient temperature to defrost the unit. Again the temperature measurements combined with the fan operation confirm what the system is doing.
When I teach AC classes I spend a good deal of time making the technicians understand the message that the temperature of the refrigerant (surface temperature of the components) can show them. That's a trick we learned from the HVAC guys. From there the systems decision as to whether it needs to run the condensor fan or not would be easy to check and would be done via temperature or pressure inputs to the board. Once again, most systems as srs described have self test capability built right into them.
Conclusions, you jumped the gun on the first guy and he easily did exactly what he should have done if he couldn't confirm that the board or any of the sensors or control relays were bad. I suspect you told the second company that it had already been looked at and the first company didn't fnd anything wrong so you inadvertantly made the oppertunity to swagg it a little more reliable for them. The first company could easily have done that too, and they were ready to take the second look "when it acted up again" had you given them the chance. But you need to find incompetence in someone else to satisfy what ever it is about you so you did, even when the circumstantial evidence suggests otherwise.
But you need to find incompetence in someone else to satisfy what ever it is about you so you did,
I am enjoying this "debate", it is just like watching a good old Perry Mason courtroom drama, or for the younger people Nancy Grace.
I'd be happy to keep going, and I am learning a lot about diagnosing a problem, but I don't think you two are ever going to give in, so you may want to take the agree to disagree suggestion.
Remember too, perception is reality to the person involved. Many times the first guy doesn't fix the problem but the second guy does, and so we naturally think he is the more competent worker. Most of us would accept that is the way it is, but, as Doc has illustrated, that may not be the case.
I'll be happy to let you continue, but you may want to put your energy into something else for awhile......and soon I'll relate the story of a plumbing problem, where the 1st guy was incompetent, and the 2nd was competent but dishonest. That could really set me up for ridicule, but I will stand by what I say. I wouldn't call either one back again....we have a new plumber and the company he works for can be trusted to do good work at a fair price.
Here goes.... Our kitchen sink gets plugged up. The drain pipe is long from kitchen sink to the main line.
1st guy says it is blocked, unusually long pipe. He will use extra long snake to clear it out, but it will be costly. He brings in the big snake and works at it for a few hours. Says to turn the tap on full frequently because it goes through a long pipe that doesn't have much slope to get it to the main pipe. Bill, $450 for 2 hours work.
About 10 months later: We are having about 20 people to the house on a Sunday. On Wednesday the sink is plugged again. btw...we try all those drain cleaners and they are useless once a line is plugged.
Call a 2nd plumber...been in business for 40 years. They say they will be there at 8:30. Not there, at 8:30, I keep calling and they say another half hour each time. Arrives at 12:30 PM. The day is half gone and we will be in serious trouble if not fixed. He says the pipe from the sink to mainline should be larger diameter, and he has to make holes in a few of the crosspiece beams to do that. Also, the pipe is warped and slants upward slowing the flow. He says it will cost $900, but will be a permanent fix. I figure it is better to spend $900 and get it fixed than to keep calling the $450 guy over and over again. The job wasn't as difficult as it sounded...he did it in 2 hours! I had no idea it would be that fast to do - he made it sound complicated. He did beautiful work, cleaned up after, it was all neat and tidy and his analysis was right on. I called the company and complained that not too many people these days make $450 an hour - even though he fixed the problem and he did beautiful work. I said I was impressed, he analyzed and knew what the problem was right away. The manager came out and said he must have miscalculated the time it would take him to do the work....he thought it would take longer!
Well yeah, then why didn't I get a reduction when he finished sooner?
This excuse really got me. He said, we are a large company with 20 people on the road, and we have office people, we aren't able to do work as cheaply as a guy who works from his basement. Thanks for telling me - next time I'll call the guy who works from his basement.
I checked online and this company gets a lot of similar complaints. I told them I was going to put the story online and write to the newspaper consumer columnist and a TV show.
He gave me a refund of $250. $300 was kind of my bottom line limit but $250 was close enough.
In this case, the 2nd guy was good at diagnosing...the 1st guy was incompetent, but, I don't ever want to see them again...and that's the way I see it.
He says the pipe from the sink to mainline should be larger diameter, and he has to make holes in a few of the crosspiece beams to do that.
I'm curious how (or even if) he reinforced the joists that were cut in order to make room for a larger drain. This sounds like poor house design, either from inception or someone, sometime later decided..."let's move the kitchen over here"...
In my trade I see this all the time. Not the worst I've seen but pretty bad..and easier to describe here, was a main support beam (a tri-laminate) that had over 4.5" cut out of it to accommodate some "plumbing changes", by...who knows...probably the helpful (ugh) neighbor with his handy-dandy SawzAll in hand..
Well fastforward a couple months, I was called cuz they had this mysterious door situation that used to swing flawlessly, but has now started to bind. So of course I discover the reason in the basement when I saw the beam cut out and the floor sagging. The fix in this case was a support post (where they didn't want it) because too much beam had been cut out to laminate further to it. If it is close to being doable, it can be drilled and bolted with two steel plates that basically sandwich the original wood beam. Sometimes access makes this complicated too.
The moral here? Beware of the (so-called) helpful neighbor with his Handy Dandy SawzAll and nothing but good intentions but lotsa grief..
I am enjoying this "debate", it is just like watching a good old Perry Mason courtroom drama, or for the younger people Nancy Grace.
OMG NancyG? LOL... I'm sure there are people love her, but I'm not one of them..
I'd be happy to keep going, and I am learning a lot about diagnosing a problem, but I don't think you two are ever going to give in, so you may want to take the agree to disagree suggestion.
We are easily there and beyond. But and its an important "but" this time the lesson in this story comes from the fact that things that can routinely be simple sometimes aren't and service techs get treated exactly how RB demonstrated many times for being honest and professional in their approach. That unfortunately either drives them from the trade, forces them to take risks and develop bad habits, or continue strive to overcome all at a significant personal cost. (We are back to where the EGO thing comes into the equation)
I have lived through parallel scenario's thousands of times through my career. Sometimes it worked in my favor, but usually there was no where else for it to go but push through what was the next no-win situation. My approach to those when they happened was to study every detail so that something could be salvaged from the experience. Those who don't understand what I mean can only call it trying to find an excuse. What I was really doing is described by the Swiss Cheese model and by identifying all of the failure points IMO there would be more chances to not repeat the mistake no matter who actually was responsible for any of them.
Remember too, perception is reality to the person involved. Many times the first guy doesn't fix the problem but the second guy does, and so we naturally think he is the more competent worker. Most of us would accept that is the way it is, but, as Doc has illustrated, that may not be the case.
I'll be happy to let you continue, but you may want to put your energy into something else for awhile......and soon I'll relate the story of a plumbing problem, where the 1st guy was incompetent, and the 2nd was competent but dishonest.
Please throw it out there, it should be interesting. Just like RB's story the real world often throws the test at us first and the lesson from it comes later, in some cases much later. The worst that ever happens is to never learn the lesson(s) that fate was trying to teach.
Was it last year that half the road washed away near Stinking Creek? We went to Gatlingburg last year in early spring, half the road for about a mile had slid down the hill. They were working on repairs at that time.
Yea I get it, that's two different stories, make that three now.
I know, you and your fellow "professionals" are the only honest people in the entire world. So noted. Funny thing; no one else in these forums has ever accused me of being dishonest- but then no one else has ever seriously attempted to defend removing and misplacing an oil filler cap on a car that was only booked in for a tire change. Coincidence? I think not...
So how did the coil go from being frozen solid in the middle of winter to not being frozen in one day, twice, unless something about the circumstances changed
Heat pump systems have an "Emergency Heat" setting; the comressor is turned off and electric heat elements are activated(they also operate when the system is in defrost mode or ambient temps are so low that the heat pump is unable to warm the outlet air sufficiently. In both cases I switched to Emergency Heat when the outside coil froze up- otherwise I would have no heat at all. Thus, the system would thaw if ambient temps were above freezing- and that happens in the southeast, believe it or not.
Essentially your heat pump doesn't work any different than an AC system does.
I never would have guessed that- all I knew was that the system used a compressor, evap/condensor coils, and refrigerant. You learn something new every day
But you need to find incompetence in someone else to satisfy what ever it is about you so you did, even when the circumstantial evidence suggests otherwise.
Or conversely, YOU need to continually defend so-called "honest professionals" who can't solve problems, don't know what they are doing, or just flat-out screw up. And then go on to criticize the guys who actually fix the problem.
As driver suggested, this particular deceased equine has received enough brutal assaults. You can look at this any way you want, but at the end of the day the bottom line is simply:
1. I remained loyal to a shop that was going downhill with respect to service quality. 2. The shop sent out a tech who found nothing wrong. 3. When the problem returned I hired a tech that was recommended by a residential contractor that I've known for years. 4. The tech's wife knew what the problem was as soon as I described it. 5. The second tech fixed the problem. 6. Both techs got paid.(economic Darwinism did not prevail)
I do realize that I deprived the first tech of a second opportunity to check the refrigerant, take a few temp readings, and then pronounce my system to be in fine fettle. That said, I also know the textbook definition of insanity.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I'm curious how (or even if) he reinforced the joists that were cut in order to make room for a larger drain. This sounds like poor house design, either from inception or someone, sometime later decided..."let's move the kitchen over here"...
I'll try to answer as best I can, keep in mind my DIY abilities are very minimal.
The pipe that was in place is probably about 20 to 25 feet long....it was I believe 2 3/4s inches in Diameter. It ran over the joist and was warping upward in the middle.
The house was only 4 1/2 years ago when this happened, that was 1 year ago. The 2nd knowledgeable plumber said he has seen this happen a lot with newer homes. They are too busy to put in the right pipe, so they asign a young kid to do what seems to be an easy straightforward job.
The house has extra ev erything...the builder is meticulous in that respect, so the joists are actually spaced half the distance that they could be. The first pipe didn't go through the joist at all. The new 4 1/4" pipe (it is either 4 or 4 1/4) had to go through the joist to be at the proper angle so the water would flow easier. Also, there are those crosshatch pieces throughout the basement to lend extra support, people who know tell me they don't do that too often these days. A few of the beams are steel.
I understand what you are saying....one could really weken their house by putting a hole through a support beam. I really think this guy knew what he was doing.
Like I said to his boss, I don't mind paying a premium for a guy who knows what he is doing, a less competent guy may have taken twice as long to do the job, but over $400 an hour is a bit much no matter how good the guy is.
was a main support beam (a tri-laminate) that had over 4.5" cut out of it to accommodate some "plumbing changes"
Where was the cutout? Was it along one of the long edges, or was it in the center? Most built up beams/headers (Glulam, LVL, etc) and solid lumber joists allow for holes through the center ( measured top to bottom) of the beam without any compromise in the load carrying capacity. This depends on the size of the cutout, where it is located relative to the bearing part of the beam, etc.
It ran over the joist and was warping upward in the middle.
Wasn't the floor above the joist nailed to the joist? If so, was the joist cut out or notched at the top to allow the pipe to pass though? If it was, then that's a definite no-no as it effectively reduces the joist from a 2x8 to a 2x5(?).
However, cutting studs or joists happens more times than you might think when plumbers come around behind the framers and have to route the pipes.
My questions would be, is the service charge included in both those totals? It's usually about $80 just to drive to your house. More importantly did they, tell you what their rate per hour hour was? If not they should have. By not asking you opened the door for a big surprise.
If he told you $900 for the job, it's a 4 hour job, and he did it in 2, well I guess that's legal.
He had cut out the entire bottom of the beam! i.e. a 3 ply 2x10 (9.25" deep) cut down to just a bit over half that. And due to gravity being what it is...anytime you see this type of butchery, the bottoms or lower portions of a hole through a joist are what are attacked naturally. Technically load supporting beams are not supposed to be compromised in any way. Period.
As for boring holes through joists, be them pre-engineered or not..there are specs that state the limits and number in inches in relation to each other both laterally within the same joist and individually to the one beside it. There is a BIG difference between adding a lighting circuit with a few 14/2 cable holes, and a hole big enough to accommodate a 1.5" ABS grey water line (or more commonly depending on the circs) a 2" line. As for adding 4" black water lines, they are supposed to be designed to go either above or below main beams. If they go through joists...traditional 2x material, you're talking about sizing up to a 2x12 (about 11.25" deep) in the place where 2x8's or 10's would have sufficed. Pre-engineered joists are more forgiving but usually only one size down. Joists can be doubled up as what driver seems to indicate in his home, to make your plans work out. There are specs and limits to follow and even that can vary from one region to another. Take for example roof rafters or trusses in snow country will have different minimum requirements than those in FL.
The last time (only time?) I used a plumber was when I was installing a new laundry room in part of an old garage and needed supply and drain lines run. I did most of the framing, then called a plumber in for an estimate to run the lines and to make sure the framing was OK for the lines. He came back, did all of the work except for the vent stack (which he came back a week or so later to complete) for the price that he quoted. I don't remember what it worked out to on a hourly basis as he did a lot of the work when only my wife was at home.
Unlike the field of auto mechanics-where 99% of the professional technicians do an incredibly amazing job 110% of the time-the legal profession is not blessed with a similar degree of perfection. Herewith a few examples...
1. Family Court contempt hearing. The issue is whether one party transferred funds from their IRA account to the accont of the opposing party(as ordered) AND whether the same party had obtained a life insurance policy to secure maintenance(AKA alimony) payments to the other party. A five minute review of the file could determine if the party had followed the court order. However, the attorney for the party seeking to enforce the order claimed that he had needed 55 hours of paralegal research to prepare the motion- and asked for an attorney fee of $8,000
2. Commercial business foreclosure(this from another judge). A bit more involved than the run-of-the-mill actions usually seen, but it was still resolved long before trial.The amount of the mortgage was $500,000; the lender's firm requested attorney fees of over $400,000- supposedly explained by the fact that two of the firm's partners sat in on one deposition(probably playing Angry Birds on their iPhones the entire time).
3. A criminal defendant who had his case dismissed wanted his record expunged. The procedure involves filling out a one page state supplied form(available on-line). It takes all of maybe 5 minutes to fill out, and the motion to expunge involves perhaps 90 seconds of court time. The gentleman called one local attorney and was quoted a price of $3000 to prepare the motion and appear in court.
Methinks I'm working on the wrong side of the bench...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
He had cut out the entire bottom of the beam! i.e. a 3 ply 2x10 (9.25" deep) cut down to just a bit over half that.
Yeah, definitely not the way to go. Just dumb. Like you said, he compromised the load carrying capacity of that beam from a triple 2x10 to a triple 2x5-1/2.
As you know, most/all of the engineered lumbers have pretty clear guidelines for holes, notches, etc.
As for adding 4" black water lines, they are supposed to be designed to go either above or below main beams. If they go through joists...traditional 2x material, you're talking about sizing up to a 2x12 (about 11.25" deep) in the place where 2x8's or 10's would have sufficed. Pre-engineered joists are more forgiving...
Agreed. I think that's one of reasons you're seeing more use of truss designs for floor joists. The openness of the truss makes it easy to run 4"-6" lines through without having to cut out the joist.
I can't say I totally follow this scenario, especially as being "quite common". It sorta sounds like an expansion issue though...drains will vary in length depending on the temp of water of course. A drain draining a dishwasher water temp of about 140¼ (F) will cause a line to expand longer than draining cold water. Anyway, given the forum no need to elaborate.
I wasn't sure what you meant when you said cross-hatching but I think I know what you mean now. Although if they are being left out of the equation, this should ONLY if pre-engineered joists are being used. And spacing O.C reduced to boot. When traditional 2x material is used, cross-bridging is still mandatory so that loads can be more evenly distributed to the joist beside it. (Picture a piano leg sitting above one joist....with cross-bridging, some of that load gets transferred to the adjacent joists. It also helps keep joists from warping with excessive loads (a living room full of 20 people partying and dancing around some night). And some of these extra big holes that srs was referring to, even if they are spaced right in the middle, at a certain point you are increasing the chance of lateral warping, lengthwise fracturing, and basically testing the limits and integrity of a piece of nature. That is why material is graded...but that is a whole other topic...like cars... it can go on and on...although I think today's cars can still be more complicated to trouble shoot than home issues...especially assuming the home was designed and built right from the beginning.
Another thing to mention to your wife...don't pour fat (like bacon fat etc) down the sink. Cottage or homeowners who are on septic instead of city sewers find this out the hard way even if the clog doesn't happen till the end of the line so to speak :sick:
edit - btw, I sure do agree..400 bucks an hour is ridiculous Either they quote you by the $ per job or by the $ per hour and number of hours. It's math and then you know whether to say go ahead or not. Me thinks they sized you up at a certain income level and gouged you. I wouldn't rehire those guys for anything no matter how great they apparently seemed to do their work. Way off topic...but I bet (since you're on this side of the border) you've seen shows like Market Place that have guys like Mike Holmes reveal super incompetent crooks like that Hummer driving [non-permissible content removed] who just keeps changing his name any time our gvt does get on his case. Incredible horror stories of sometimes 100k $ spent and paid for jobs that weren't only not completed, but were just one huge disaster with nothing done right and even compromised the original home, with structure issues, mold..you name it..so it can get pretty bad.. :sick:
Yes, and allows more open areas in basements because so many people want as much living area there as they do upstairs and the more vertical support posts they can eliminate, the freer they are with design and room options.
The last time (only time?) I used a plumber was when I was installing a new laundry room in part of an old garage and needed supply and drain lines run.
We used an excellent plumber back in the '80s but he retired. My contractor friend suggested another shop and we've used them ever since. One tech has an older E85 Z4, knew of my passion for Bavarian Steel and I wound up giving him some options for obtaining service and parts. He gave us his cell number so that we can schedule any work through him directly. Don't get your undies in a twist cardoc; we are still billed by-and write our checks to-the plumbing company. The scheduling just saves all parties some time. The only hiccup wasn't their fault. I had them install an electrical water shutoff valve behind the washer; it was supposed to shut off the water until the washer was actually operating. For some reason it didn't want to play well with my GE Energy Star washer, they made several attempts to get it to work but it just wasn't going to happen. They refunded the cost of the valve and I paid for a couple of service calls with no complaints- it wasn't their fault that the valve didn't work.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
In both cases I switched to Emergency Heat when the outside coil froze up- otherwise I would have no heat at all. Thus, the system would thaw if ambient temps were above freezing-
That was a perfectly natural thing for you to do and I mentioned that possibility in my first response. You failed to acknowledge that event occurred. From there the problem is that you never considered how that potentially added a variable to the situation. Just like I tried to explain by referencing the Swiss Cheese model. From there the outcome of the repair attempt simply becomes more random, and one didn't get to succeed and one did. That's about as random as we could ever get isn't it?
I know, you and your fellow "professionals" are the only honest people in the entire world. So noted. Funny thing; no one else in these forums has ever accused me of being dishonest
This is where you continue to blow it. While I keep getting you to change your story you only see it as being dishonest and that's your perception of the situation. Mine however is only that your perspective of what really occurred was flawed, and therefore your perception simply keeps changing from where it was just a few hours ago. Its easy to say that you were never dishonest through-out this exchange, you simply weren't accurate with your eye witness account.
What you just experienced with this exchange is exactly what techs go through when something doesn't work out for any reason. Many times there really doesn't need to be blame, and it doesn't have to be anyones fault. You just have to get up, make it right learn from it and move on. You present yourself as being tech savvy and capable of doing our job. The oil filler cap event was me simply forcing you to feel what its like to have a failure projected onto you whether you were really at fault for it or not. When you handle that level of unfairness graciously and learn not to jump to false conclusions in diagnostics then you will have made great strides towards really being able to do my job. That's all that ever was, nothing more, nothing less.
Yea I can be a real Pr#$ when I want need to, but you gotta admit you do tend to make it easy. If the public wants better techs, then they first need to know how to find the better techs. Shops need to grow better techs and that it takes time, decades to be precise. There will be dissapointments along the way and like it or not people just need to get over it when it happens. I keep envisioning the analogy of buying a kid a bike and then the first time they fall off throwing it away and blaming them for falling off. You wouldn't do that to the kid but that's exactly what happened to your first AC tech.
BTW. Every time you use one of your lines like a tech not having opposable thumbs or some other disparaging remark you do deserve to have someone jump on your [non-permissible content removed]. How many more times will we do this dance before you learn that it's not OK to do that and you won't have any fun when I call you out over it?
So then, what about the HVAC tech that was going to replace the control board in my heat pump system, when that was not the problem? Did he just have a bad day? Did he make a honest mistake (that was possibly going to cost me $400+)? Or was he really, truly that incompetent?
You think he should be given the benefit of the doubt; that I should have turned this into a learning experience for him?
Yea I can be a real Pr#$ when I want need to, but you gotta admit you do tend to make it easy.
Thanks, but methinks that you are selling yourself short, it is obvious thatyou come by it naturally.
If the public wants better techs, then they first need to know how to find the better techs.
Which is exactly what I did when I asked my contractor friend for a referral. And the guy he suggested fixed the problem.
I keep envisioning the analogy of buying a kid a bike and then the first time they fall off throwing it away and blaming them for falling off. You wouldn't do that to the kid but that's exactly what happened to your first AC tech.
Again, the definition of insanity becomes relevant...
BTW. Every time you use one of your lines like a tech not having opposable thumbs or some other disparaging remark you do deserve to have someone jump on your [non-permissible content removed].
Sorry, I guess the truth hurts. Some techs perform as if they lack opposable thumbs. So do some lawyers and judges. Some from both fields are nitwits. Sad but true. Jump, fume, and fret all you want- I'll continue to call them the way I see them.
How many more times will we do this dance before you learn that it's not OK to do that and you won't have any fun when I call you out over it?
Me? I'm having a ball- as are more than a few lurkers/spectators from other boards. Your eagerness to spring to the defense of the most inept and clueless is truly entertaining.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
My dad used to say "Even a submarine, with all its technical advancements, still comes with a periscope. That's so the captain can raise it and take a look at what's going on outside the boat once in a while, if for no other reason than to stay connected with the rest of the world".
Your point seems to be, that unless we become a master tech, master plumber, HVAC, etc. we have no right to question the service we get... because we're too ignorant to know what we're talking about. And since we don't have the techincal experience to solve these problems, we are in no position to question tech competency or fairness. So to you the techs are always right, unless proven wrong... by another tech of course. I can see your point to an extent... but you go waaay too far with it.
From a consumers perspective, we don't care or want to hear about excuses. We just want it fixed right the first time, at a good or reasonable price. I don't need or require patience to wait for a tech to develop into someone who can fix the problem properly. If I'm an owner I don't send someone out who isnt ready. If I do and there's a problem with the repair, well then it's on the owner in the way of lost business.
I don't owe my mechanics or repair people my allegiance. I'm not married to them. If I think they cost me money, I move on to someone else who can do the job. Let the owner of the business who just lost a customer "get over it."
In my wheel alignment/balance case, there was incompetence (setting my tire pressure to 43 psi instead of 30 psi), ...what appeared to me as false mis-information (the weight of engine causing abnormal wear on a car with only 22k miles), and redemption (Big O balanced the tires properly on the third try).
The setting of tire pressure at 43 psi was a block headed move, one worthy of the "opposable thumb" remark. (unless you have some inside knowledge I am unaware of.) The way the car was bouncing all over the road, as my wife described, it was probably set at 53 psi. That one could have put our lives in danger.
Will I go back? Don't know, time heals all wounds. They did get the job done, that is a plus, that they almost killed me... well, I see that as a negative. :sick:
Your point seems to be, that unless we become a master tech, master plumber, HVAC, etc. we have no right to question the service we get... because we're too ignorant to know what we're talking about. And since we don't have the techincal experience to solve these problems, we are in no position to question tech competency or fairness. So to you the techs are always right, unless proven wrong... by another tech of course. I can see your point to an extent... but you go waaay too far with it.
Doc sure knows his stuff. Probably the smartest guy on these forums that I've encountered, probably just below Tidester (former host) and just above shifty.
Shifty and Tidester are really nice guys though, who never used their intellect to bully other members... or use other members for their own amusement. Willing to look at both sides of an argument. Yes, I know they are hosts, but they are human too. I've had my moments in the sun I know, but I've learned to be more opened minded here. Isell and others taught me what it's like to be a car salesman, and doc boy more about what it's like to be an auto tech. So to them I am thankful.
Steve? He creamed a bear in the snoze with a rock.. that's bad$$$ enough for me. :P
I think doc should try to treat members here like he would his own customers. Since that seems to be his purpose here, to educate.
Around here, many commercial oriented plumbers have a standardized rate book very similar to what you see in car dealerships. The cost of installing a bath tub valve assy., for example, is estimated to take so much time, and the hourly rate is applied accordingly, exactly as is done in many car dealerships.
The independent plumbers generally don't follow that strategy, and either just quote their best-guess at what they think the job will cost or charge by the hour, with a standard "site visit" fee added in on top.
When I was in law school back in the early '80s I was one of only a few car guys in my class. As a result, I often got called on for advice- and every now and then I would perform minor mechanical repairs and/or upgrades for my classmates(including installing a sound system for a delightfully eccentric young lady who could have passed for Debbie Harry's identical twin sister- but I digress...)
Anyway, one of my friends had a Mustang II(so did my girlfriend; that particular model motivated me to study hard- so that I would land a job that ensured I would never have to own or drive one ever again...) So one day my friend tells me that the car is stalling after it has been driven for 10-20 minutes. After 30 minutes or so it would fire up, run another 10-20 minutes and stall again. I tell him it could be anything from a ignition module that fails hot to a fuel system issue. I suggest taking it to a dealer or indie shop.
So... he takes it to his nearest Ford dealer. They change the fuel filter and "blow out the fuel lines." I told him that I hoped it worked, but that my guess was that whatever clogged the lines was still in the tank.
Two days later, the trusty steed stalls again. Back to the dealer it goes. This time they again blow out the lines and "install new EGR valve." I thought that call was a little sketchy, so I looked under the hood and found an EGR valve that looked like it had been on the car since it was new(Ford V8s of that vintage had an EGR valve assembly that was sandwiched between the carb and the intake manifold- I had dealt with them while doing my time in DIY mechanic purgatory servicing my parents' 1973 Bronco and 1974 Maverick). At this point I'm thinking the next thing they should do is drop the tank and clean it out.
Anyone care to guess what happened next? This time I decide to go back to the dealer with my friend; I tell him to ask to speak to the Service Manager and to politely explain that the car had stalled again and to ask why a new EGR valve was installed(As for me, I was going to act as if I was just the guy who was giving him a ride- I really wanted to hear what the guy would say.) Anyways... when we go back to the dealer the SM comes out and apologizes for the problem. He pops the hood and pokes around the air cleaner and intake manifold for a minute and then announces, "I'm sorry for the mistake- this car doesn't even have an EGR valve. I think what we need to do is drop the gas tank and clean it out." At this point I've decided that any landing you walk away from is a good one- if the SM wants to take the EGR valve off the bill because he thinks the car doesn't have one I'm not going to get in his way. Sometimes a failure cascade works to your advantage.
And yes, the car ran fine after the tank was cleaned. My girlfriend and I parted amicably- but not before I talked her into ditching the Mustang II for a new Accord coupe. My buddy and I both passed the Bar, thereby relegating future Mustang II ownership to the ash heap of history. And I met my future wife, who permanently endeared herself to me by locating my first BMW: a 1973 Bavaria 3.0. Talk about living HAPPILY ever after...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Wasn't the floor above the joist nailed to the joist?
Hope this helps. Most joists or beams run north and south and they are about a foot apart. This is a cross joist that runs East and West and they are about 20 feet apart. Yest, the floor could be nailed to them. Some of these are steel beams. This one is 3 thicknesses of wood, each is about an inch thick. Even with the 4 1/4 inch pipe running through it, there is maybe almost 3 inches of wood below and 1 1/2 to 2" of wood above it.
I doubt it would compromise the strength at all....all looks pretty solid.
That's the $64,000 question isn't it. Based on the fact that Al didn't work there anymore and the shop gave you your money back one, way or another Al was easily the wrong person for the job. Now was it dishonesty or incompetence, only Al could really answer that, and I suspect his former boss could likely be sued if he ventured to guess publicly.
As a business owner these are the kinds of situations that will keep you up a night. For a businesses customers, should a problem ever arrise because of an employee's conduct of performance you react and deal with it efficiently and in the customers favor. Then you deal with the employee. That's part of owning a business.
My questions would be, is the service charge included in both those totals?
The manager said, you got a price of $900 and you could have said no to the work at that point and there would be no charge...they do give free estimates.
But, this was already Thursday afternoon (they said they would be there first thing in the morning) and we had 20 people visiting on Sunday. The plumber made it sound like a major job...cutting through support beams and going over heat ducts as well. I thought it sounded like 5 hours worth of work!
So, yes, the $80 was part of the $900. With tax and all and a few extra parts it was close to $1100 in total. Like I say, I don't mind paying extra for his knowledge and beautiful work - even cleaned up the saw dust, but I really think the service part of the job was excessive. I could have said no and sent him away with nothing if I didn't like the estimate....but, I wanted to be reasonable too...just give me a fair price for 2 hours work.
but, I wanted to be reasonable too...just give me a fair price for 2 hours work.
I got "burned" by a place like that one. I had a problem with my Lennox forced air heater. I called a small repair company that has done work for my parents. They cleaned and adjusted a few things on multiple occasions, but it would either be finicky or not work at all.
I got tired of fussing with it and called a big local repair shop. The kind that advertises, and has 50 trucks. The guy looked at it and explained this and that.... blah blah blah.
Quoted my $800 for a new controller, rewire and thermocouple. What was I to do? I let him fix it. A few days after he left I Googled the part # and found it only cost about $200 and I could have easily done the work myself in a little over an hour.
In this case, I had to pay for the knowledge of diagnosing what was wrong. In any event, 7 years later it is still working great. This applies to cars as well. I can change parts, but its the diagnosis that I fail on. Sometimes, buying the equipment to test something can cost more than just having it done.
That happened on our old refrigerator; the fix was a cheap and easy DIY- the problem was the diagnosis. I gladly paid for a service call just to get the blasted thing working.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I wasn't sure what you meant when you said cross-hatching
You make lots of good points gimme. First, I think what I was trying to say was "cross bracing". This is the way they explain it - Cross bracing involves nailing small wooden braces from the top of one floor joist to the bottom of the next joist, and vice versa, forming an X. That's what this looks like...lots of X's along each beam.
Either they quote you by the $ per job or by the $ per hour and number of hours. Yes, and that is what the manager said at first, we don't do jobs by the hour, but by the job itself. I understand that, but, there has to be some relationship between the time spent and the amount charged. Me thinks they sized you up at a certain income level and gouged you. I think so too....a big house and a nice car. I think they figured this would make an easy day for the guy. Unfortunately, we are at the mercy of these guys to some extent.
you've seen shows like Market Place
I have seen Market Place and the ones about home repairs are scarry. They do sting operations with garage door openners, where just the beam has to be aligned and it is surprising how many workers will sell a new circuit board for a few $100s.
Quoted my $800 for a new controller, rewire and thermocouple. What was I to do? I let him fix it. A few days after he left I Googled the part # and found it only cost about $200
And, you are pretty knowledgeable, think about all the people these guys see who know nothing about furnaces. That's the reason it is hard to trust any workman including mechanics (sorry to say it doc....but, a few bad apples really do ruin it for every one.
Since the plumbing incident I ask people who they use for plumbing, painting, cars, electrical etc. and make a note of who they suggest. When it happens it is too late to try and find someone you can trust.
Another thing, as we both found out, the company that has been around for 50 years and has the biggest fleet isn't necessarily the best...sometimes they last that long because they know how to rip people off. I always like the guy who takes pride in his work and just wants to make a nice honest living. Our heating guys are like that, never oversell, do good work at a reasonable price.
Had HVAC heat pump serviced/repaired 2 weeks ago. I believe the initial serviceman cracked the plastic PVC drain line for the AC while pulling on the furnace panel to get more room to troubleshoot the controller valve on the inside coil. I heard a crack that sounded like plastic.
Do I let the owner of the company know? I had to repair it yesterday after realizing I felt moisture on the trap in the line while cleaning it out more. Fact check: I believe the glue makes the PVC more brittle. The crack occured where the two 90-degree turns were glued together with a small piece of line between them: they are butted together there. Is it 20-year old wear and tear?
To remain automotive, let me say I did not go back to the mechanic who replaced my intake manifold gaskets and left me with a small, slow seep in the 90-degree heater bypass. It took me a year to find it was occurring. Would I be offending him if I let him know 3 years later when I have him replaced them with updated metal tubes and new o-rings?
I had a repairman come give me a "free estimate" on a washing machine problem. He actually stood in front of me so I couldn't see what he was doing. Afraid I would figure out the problem, then tell him to get lost. Fine by me.He explained the defective part in great detail and complexity. About $110. O.k I say. He goes out to his truck and pulls out a small plastic cog. Looked to me something one use to get out of a bubble gum machine. Was he honest? Yeah.A bit misleading to get the job? Yeah.
IMO, there's really no such thing as a free estimate. Someone ends up paying. In your case the initial figure might seem a bit high, but when you dig down a bit deeper you realize the costs being generated by the visit. Gas, tires, insurance and oil on the truck, the repairman's wage, the inventory cost, etc.
I guess what I'm saying is that $100 isn't what it used to be, but we all have some sort of mindset that influences us (in one way or another) to remember when $100 was what was referred to as "real money".
Thinking about the repair as a $0.75 nylon gear makes the repair seem like extortion, but IMO, once you take the big picture into account, it isn't so bad.
Putting it into car talk, I can remember when I could buy a full set of tires, mounted and balanced, for the price of a single RFT on my 328i. The funny thing is, even back then, I thought the tires were expensive.
I assumed most outfits were like the appliance repair place I had to use not that long ago. It was something like $65 for the service call whether they did anything or not.
and just like with cars, it is only a $.75 part if you know how to figure out what to replace, and know how to replace it. Otherwise, just like with Cardoc and his kin, you are paying for the expertise you don't have (and the tools/equipment). Or of course, you are just not willing to invest your time on the job!
IMO, there's really no such thing as a free estimate. Someone ends up paying. In your case the initial figure might seem a bit high, but when you dig down a bit deeper you realize the costs being generated by the visit. Gas, tires, insurance and oil on the truck, the repairman's wage, the inventory cost, etc.
I really don't focus on the price; my priority is competence. I know that none of the shops I use are the cheapest places to get service, but they are first-rate, professional, and I can be confident the job will be done right. As I've said before, while I sometimes consider other brands, I'm reluctant to stray from the Munich fold again. I really don't want to be in the same situation I am with my Mazda- having to travel to another state to find a dealer that hires competent individuals who can communicate using complete sentences...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I really don't want to be in the same situation I am with my Mazda- having to travel to another state to find a dealer that hires competent individuals who can communicate using complete sentences.
Oh oh, I hear another battle coming up - them's sound like fightin words!
I will agree though with the basic premise, it is better to pay a bit more initially than have to get it redone later. Then, once it's done you just hope you don't need any other things fixed for a long time.
And, it is true, if a service call is $75 then the cost of a part, knowledge to know what was wrong, the work involved to install it, gets you to $110 prety quickly.
It sounds to me... like your plumber did a great job.. $900 for a permanent, well-done fix, compared to $450 for a crappy non-fix from the other guy...
Comments
It's easy to tell when you know your losing, you can't keep your concentration on the subject and you get more ignorant and personal with your attacks.
and the coil froze again within a day or two
Maybe my reading comprehension does need some work, someone help me out here. For the coil to freeze again doesn't the coil have to not be frozen at the time that the first tech was looking at it?
For the next tech to get to verify the concern, the coil has to be frozen at that time, right?
That's two different circumstances in my book. The system has a problem, no debate there because you wouldn't have called them otherwise. But its random and not acting up all of the time.
"honest professionals" who can't fix the problem.
Can't fix the problem, or didn't get to fix the problem? There's a big difference between those two thoughts.
It's too bad that you can't enjoy your life.
Hmmm. Today, yea on a Sunday I got to call an older fellow who needs to rely on a 1993 Cadillac to still get around. It's been shutting down on him randomly and several other techs had taken a look and eventually sent him my way. After a considerable effort and a very patient approach I isolated the circuit that was failing and causing the EST system to stop controlling the spark. The sound of his voice when I told him that had I found the problem was worth all the effort it ever took to be able to do it for him. But no, we will never have a fancy house and all of the cars and other worldly things you treasure. I won't know a retirement like most everyone else as I fully expect to work until my last day. We went on a full weeks vacation for the first time since we got married last year just before my wife's surgery and no, we don't have any idea if or when we will ever get to take one again. But you have no right to make statements like you did on that last response. If I launched off and wrote what should really be said to you I would only succeed in lowering myself to your level. Your not going to get me to do that.
As a BMW owner, I completely agree with that statement.
I'll 3rd that!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Our bear didn't pay us much attention. The raccoon stuck its head out from underneath the steps and crawled up on deck when I was getting ready to get in the hot tub. I chased it off with the tub cleaning pole. :P
He kept coming back. Scraggly lookin thing. Thought it might have rabies. Just very hungry I guess.
For the next tech to get to verify the concern, the coil has to be frozen at that time, right?
The coil wasn't frozen either time. The second tech verified theproblem by testing the defrost board. The first guy only checked the freon levels and inlet/outlet temps. Now do you get it?
If I launched off and wrote what should really be said to you I would only succeed in lowering myself to your level. Your not going to get me to do that.
Drat!!!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
The coil wasn't frozen either time. The second tech verified theproblem by testing the defrost board. The first guy only checked the freon levels and inlet/outlet temps. Now do you get it?
Yea I get it, that's two different stories, make that three now.
So how did the coil go from being frozen solid in the middle of winter to not being frozen in one day, twice, unless something about the circumstances changed?
By now you have had time to understand what srs went through when he had to wrestle with his system. I saw where you insisted that the tech only checked the refrigerant and the "inlet and outlet" temps and when you really understand how these work we have a little thing at play called circumstantial evidence, ever hear of it? The only way for you to have observed the coil being frozen and then it not be frozen the next day is that some how something changed and your system was presenting a random condition, and when the tech "announced he couldn't find anything wrong, and to call if it happened again" implys that the rest of the fan controls were working correctly at that time too. The only thing missing is what was really said by the tech on that day, but the frozen coil evidence makes up for that.
Essentially your heat pump doesn't work any different than an AC system does. The engineers take advantage of the principles of latent heat to draw heat from one area and pump it to a second. The component surface temperatures change depending on mode of operation and how much heat is being moved. When the coil outside is taking heat from the outside the system has to take the refrigerant and drop its boiling point inside the condensor coil below the ambient temperature to make it pick up heat. (Technically speaking its now the evaporator coil) When the tech measures the temperature of the coil, that's exactly what he see's when the system is in the heat pump mode. When the system is in the AC mode the system raises the boiling point of the refrigerant inside the condensor so that it can give off the heat that it picked up inside the home. In that mode the condensor fan would have run to cool the condensor coil off. In defrost mode as srs pointed out, the condensor fan has to stop running and that assists in raising the refrigerent's boiling temperature well above the ambient temperature to defrost the unit. Again the temperature measurements combined with the fan operation confirm what the system is doing.
When I teach AC classes I spend a good deal of time making the technicians understand the message that the temperature of the refrigerant (surface temperature of the components) can show them. That's a trick we learned from the HVAC guys. From there the systems decision as to whether it needs to run the condensor fan or not would be easy to check and would be done via temperature or pressure inputs to the board. Once again, most systems as srs described have self test capability built right into them.
Conclusions, you jumped the gun on the first guy and he easily did exactly what he should have done if he couldn't confirm that the board or any of the sensors or control relays were bad. I suspect you told the second company that it had already been looked at and the first company didn't fnd anything wrong so you inadvertantly made the oppertunity to swagg it a little more reliable for them. The first company could easily have done that too, and they were ready to take the second look "when it acted up again" had you given them the chance. But you need to find incompetence in someone else to satisfy what ever it is about you so you did, even when the circumstantial evidence suggests otherwise.
I am enjoying this "debate", it is just like watching a good old Perry Mason courtroom drama, or for the younger people Nancy Grace.
I'd be happy to keep going, and I am learning a lot about diagnosing a problem, but I don't think you two are ever going to give in, so you may want to take the agree to disagree suggestion.
Remember too, perception is reality to the person involved. Many times the first guy doesn't fix the problem but the second guy does, and so we naturally think he is the more competent worker. Most of us would accept that is the way it is, but, as Doc has illustrated, that may not be the case.
I'll be happy to let you continue, but you may want to put your energy into something else for awhile......and soon I'll relate the story of a plumbing problem, where the 1st guy was incompetent, and the 2nd was competent but dishonest. That could really set me up for ridicule, but I will stand by what I say. I wouldn't call either one back again....we have a new plumber and the company he works for can be trusted to do good work at a fair price.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Our kitchen sink gets plugged up. The drain pipe is long from kitchen sink to the main line.
1st guy says it is blocked, unusually long pipe. He will use extra long snake to clear it out, but it will be costly. He brings in the big snake and works at it for a few hours. Says to turn the tap on full frequently because it goes through a long pipe that doesn't have much slope to get it to the main pipe. Bill, $450 for 2 hours work.
About 10 months later: We are having about 20 people to the house on a Sunday. On Wednesday the sink is plugged again. btw...we try all those drain cleaners and they are useless once a line is plugged.
Call a 2nd plumber...been in business for 40 years. They say they will be there at 8:30. Not there, at 8:30, I keep calling and they say another half hour each time. Arrives at 12:30 PM. The day is half gone and we will be in serious trouble if not fixed.
He says the pipe from the sink to mainline should be larger diameter, and he has to make holes in a few of the crosspiece beams to do that. Also, the pipe is warped and slants upward slowing the flow. He says it will cost $900, but will be a permanent fix.
I figure it is better to spend $900 and get it fixed than to keep calling the $450 guy over and over again.
The job wasn't as difficult as it sounded...he did it in 2 hours!
I had no idea it would be that fast to do - he made it sound complicated.
He did beautiful work, cleaned up after, it was all neat and tidy and his analysis was right on.
I called the company and complained that not too many people these days make $450 an hour - even though he fixed the problem and he did beautiful work. I said I was impressed, he analyzed and knew what the problem was right away.
The manager came out and said he must have miscalculated the time it would take him to do the work....he thought it would take longer!
Well yeah, then why didn't I get a reduction when he finished sooner?
This excuse really got me. He said, we are a large company with 20 people on the road, and we have office people, we aren't able to do work as cheaply as a guy who works from his basement. Thanks for telling me - next time I'll call the guy who works from his basement.
I checked online and this company gets a lot of similar complaints. I told them I was going to put the story online and write to the newspaper consumer columnist and a TV show.
He gave me a refund of $250. $300 was kind of my bottom line limit but $250 was close enough.
In this case, the 2nd guy was good at diagnosing...the 1st guy was incompetent, but, I don't ever want to see them again...and that's the way I see it.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Any trouble with the roadbed and landslides in the Stinking Creek exit area on the trip down?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm curious how (or even if) he reinforced the joists that were cut in order to make room for a larger drain. This sounds like poor house design, either from inception or someone, sometime later decided..."let's move the kitchen over here"...
In my trade I see this all the time. Not the worst I've seen but pretty bad..and easier to describe here, was a main support beam (a tri-laminate) that had over 4.5" cut out of it to accommodate some "plumbing changes", by...who knows...probably the helpful (ugh) neighbor with his handy-dandy SawzAll in hand..
Well fastforward a couple months, I was called cuz they had this mysterious door situation that used to swing flawlessly, but has now started to bind. So of course I discover the reason in the basement when I saw the beam cut out and the floor sagging. The fix in this case was a support post (where they didn't want it) because too much beam had been cut out to laminate further to it. If it is close to being doable, it can be drilled and bolted with two steel plates that basically sandwich the original wood beam. Sometimes access makes this complicated too.
The moral here? Beware of the (so-called) helpful neighbor with his Handy Dandy SawzAll and nothing but good intentions but lotsa grief..
OMG NancyG? LOL... I'm sure there are people love her, but I'm not one of them..
I'd be happy to keep going, and I am learning a lot about diagnosing a problem, but I don't think you two are ever going to give in, so you may want to take the agree to disagree suggestion.
We are easily there and beyond. But and its an important "but" this time the lesson in this story comes from the fact that things that can routinely be simple sometimes aren't and service techs get treated exactly how RB demonstrated many times for being honest and professional in their approach. That unfortunately either drives them from the trade, forces them to take risks and develop bad habits, or continue strive to overcome all at a significant personal cost. (We are back to where the EGO thing comes into the equation)
I have lived through parallel scenario's thousands of times through my career. Sometimes it worked in my favor, but usually there was no where else for it to go but push through what was the next no-win situation. My approach to those when they happened was to study every detail so that something could be salvaged from the experience. Those who don't understand what I mean can only call it trying to find an excuse. What I was really doing is described by the Swiss Cheese model and by identifying all of the failure points IMO there would be more chances to not repeat the mistake no matter who actually was responsible for any of them.
Remember too, perception is reality to the person involved. Many times the first guy doesn't fix the problem but the second guy does, and so we naturally think he is the more competent worker. Most of us would accept that is the way it is, but, as Doc has illustrated, that may not be the case.
I'll be happy to let you continue, but you may want to put your energy into something else for awhile......and soon I'll relate the story of a plumbing problem, where the 1st guy was incompetent, and the 2nd was competent but dishonest.
Please throw it out there, it should be interesting. Just like RB's story the real world often throws the test at us first and the lesson from it comes later, in some cases much later. The worst that ever happens is to never learn the lesson(s) that fate was trying to teach.
Was it last year that half the road washed away near Stinking Creek? We went to Gatlingburg last year in early spring, half the road for about a mile had slid down the hill. They were working on repairs at that time.
I know, you and your fellow "professionals" are the only honest people in the entire world. So noted. Funny thing; no one else in these forums has ever accused me of being dishonest- but then no one else has ever seriously attempted to defend removing and misplacing an oil filler cap on a car that was only booked in for a tire change. Coincidence? I think not...
So how did the coil go from being frozen solid in the middle of winter to not being frozen in one day, twice, unless something about the circumstances changed
Heat pump systems have an "Emergency Heat" setting; the comressor is turned off and electric heat elements are activated(they also operate when the system is in defrost mode or ambient temps are so low that the heat pump is unable to warm the outlet air sufficiently. In both cases I switched to Emergency Heat when the outside coil froze up- otherwise I would have no heat at all. Thus, the system would thaw if ambient temps were above freezing- and that happens in the southeast, believe it or not.
Essentially your heat pump doesn't work any different than an AC system does.
I never would have guessed that- all I knew was that the system used a compressor, evap/condensor coils, and refrigerant. You learn something new every day
But you need to find incompetence in someone else to satisfy what ever it is about you so you did, even when the circumstantial evidence suggests otherwise.
Or conversely, YOU need to continually defend so-called "honest professionals" who can't solve problems, don't know what they are doing, or just flat-out screw up. And then go on to criticize the guys who actually fix the problem.
As driver suggested, this particular deceased equine has received enough brutal assaults. You can look at this any way you want, but at the end of the day the bottom line is simply:
1. I remained loyal to a shop that was going downhill with respect to service quality.
2. The shop sent out a tech who found nothing wrong.
3. When the problem returned I hired a tech that was recommended by a residential contractor that I've known for years.
4. The tech's wife knew what the problem was as soon as I described it.
5. The second tech fixed the problem.
6. Both techs got paid.(economic Darwinism did not prevail)
I do realize that I deprived the first tech of a second opportunity to check the refrigerant, take a few temp readings, and then pronounce my system to be in fine fettle. That said, I also know the textbook definition of insanity.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I'll try to answer as best I can, keep in mind my DIY abilities are very minimal.
The pipe that was in place is probably about 20 to 25 feet long....it was I believe 2 3/4s inches in Diameter. It ran over the joist and was warping upward in the middle.
The house was only 4 1/2 years ago when this happened, that was 1 year ago. The 2nd knowledgeable plumber said he has seen this happen a lot with newer homes. They are too busy to put in the right pipe, so they asign a young kid to do what seems to be an easy straightforward job.
The house has extra ev erything...the builder is meticulous in that respect, so the joists are actually spaced half the distance that they could be. The first pipe didn't go through the joist at all. The new 4 1/4" pipe (it is either 4 or 4 1/4) had to go through the joist to be at the proper angle so the water would flow easier. Also, there are those crosshatch pieces throughout the basement to lend extra support, people who know tell me they don't do that too often these days. A few of the beams are steel.
I understand what you are saying....one could really weken their house by putting a hole through a support beam. I really think this guy knew what he was doing.
Like I said to his boss, I don't mind paying a premium for a guy who knows what he is doing, a less competent guy may have taken twice as long to do the job, but over $400 an hour is a bit much no matter how good the guy is.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Where was the cutout? Was it along one of the long edges, or was it in the center? Most built up beams/headers (Glulam, LVL, etc) and solid lumber joists allow for holes through the center ( measured top to bottom) of the beam without any compromise in the load carrying capacity. This depends on the size of the cutout, where it is located relative to the bearing part of the beam, etc.
Wasn't the floor above the joist nailed to the joist? If so, was the joist cut out or notched at the top to allow the pipe to pass though? If it was, then that's a definite no-no as it effectively reduces the joist from a 2x8 to a 2x5(?).
However, cutting studs or joists happens more times than you might think when plumbers come around behind the framers and have to route the pipes.
If he told you $900 for the job, it's a 4 hour job, and he did it in 2, well I guess that's legal.
As for boring holes through joists, be them pre-engineered or not..there are specs that state the limits and number in inches in relation to each other both laterally within the same joist and individually to the one beside it. There is a BIG difference between adding a lighting circuit with a few 14/2 cable holes, and a hole big enough to accommodate a 1.5" ABS grey water line (or more commonly depending on the circs) a 2" line. As for adding 4" black water lines, they are supposed to be designed to go either above or below main beams. If they go through joists...traditional 2x material, you're talking about sizing up to a 2x12 (about 11.25" deep) in the place where 2x8's or 10's would have sufficed. Pre-engineered joists are more forgiving but usually only one size down. Joists can be doubled up as what driver seems to indicate in his home, to make your plans work out. There are specs and limits to follow and even that can vary from one region to another. Take for example roof rafters or trusses in snow country will have different minimum requirements than those in FL.
1. Family Court contempt hearing. The issue is whether one party transferred funds from their IRA account to the accont of the opposing party(as ordered) AND whether the same party had obtained a life insurance policy to secure maintenance(AKA alimony) payments to the other party. A five minute review of the file could determine if the party had followed the court order. However, the attorney for the party seeking to enforce the order claimed that he had needed 55 hours of paralegal research to prepare the motion- and asked for an attorney fee of $8,000
2. Commercial business foreclosure(this from another judge). A bit more involved than the run-of-the-mill actions usually seen, but it was still resolved long before trial.The amount of the mortgage was $500,000; the lender's firm requested attorney fees of over $400,000- supposedly explained by the fact that two of the firm's partners sat in on one deposition(probably playing Angry Birds on their iPhones the entire time).
3. A criminal defendant who had his case dismissed wanted his record expunged. The procedure involves filling out a one page state supplied form(available on-line). It takes all of maybe 5 minutes to fill out, and the motion to expunge involves perhaps 90 seconds of court time. The gentleman called one local attorney and was quoted a price of $3000 to prepare the motion and appear in court.
Methinks I'm working on the wrong side of the bench...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Yeah, definitely not the way to go. Just dumb. Like you said, he compromised the load carrying capacity of that beam from a triple 2x10 to a triple 2x5-1/2.
As you know, most/all of the engineered lumbers have pretty clear guidelines for holes, notches, etc.
Agreed. I think that's one of reasons you're seeing more use of truss designs for floor joists. The openness of the truss makes it easy to run 4"-6" lines through without having to cut out the joist.
I can't say I totally follow this scenario, especially as being "quite common". It sorta sounds like an expansion issue though...drains will vary in length depending on the temp of water of course. A drain draining a dishwasher water temp of about 140¼ (F) will cause a line to expand longer than draining cold water. Anyway, given the forum no need to elaborate.
I wasn't sure what you meant when you said cross-hatching but I think I know what you mean now. Although if they are being left out of the equation, this should ONLY if pre-engineered joists are being used. And spacing O.C reduced to boot. When traditional 2x material is used, cross-bridging is still mandatory so that loads can be more evenly distributed to the joist beside it. (Picture a piano leg sitting above one joist....with cross-bridging, some of that load gets transferred to the adjacent joists. It also helps keep joists from warping with excessive loads (a living room full of 20 people partying and dancing around some night). And some of these extra big holes that srs was referring to, even if they are spaced right in the middle, at a certain point you are increasing the chance of lateral warping, lengthwise fracturing, and basically testing the limits and integrity of a piece of nature. That is why material is graded...but that is a whole other topic...like cars... it can go on and on...although I think today's cars can still be more complicated to trouble shoot than home issues...especially assuming the home was designed and built right from the beginning.
Another thing to mention to your wife...don't pour fat (like bacon fat etc) down the sink. Cottage or homeowners who are on septic instead of city sewers find this out the hard way even if the clog doesn't happen till the end of the line so to speak :sick:
edit - btw, I sure do agree..400 bucks an hour is ridiculous
Either they quote you by the $ per job or by the $ per hour and number of hours. It's math and then you know whether to say go ahead or not. Me thinks they sized you up at a certain income level and gouged you. I wouldn't rehire those guys for anything no matter how great they apparently seemed to do their work. Way off topic...but I bet (since you're on this side of the border) you've seen shows like Market Place that have guys like Mike Holmes reveal super incompetent crooks like that Hummer driving [non-permissible content removed] who just keeps changing his name any time our gvt does get on his case. Incredible horror stories of sometimes 100k $ spent and paid for jobs that weren't only not completed, but were just one huge disaster with nothing done right and even compromised the original home, with structure issues, mold..you name it..so it can get pretty bad.. :sick:
We used an excellent plumber back in the '80s but he retired. My contractor friend suggested another shop and we've used them ever since. One tech has an older E85 Z4, knew of my passion for Bavarian Steel and I wound up giving him some options for obtaining service and parts. He gave us his cell number so that we can schedule any work through him directly. Don't get your undies in a twist cardoc; we are still billed by-and write our checks to-the plumbing company. The scheduling just saves all parties some time. The only hiccup wasn't their fault. I had them install an electrical water shutoff valve behind the washer; it was supposed to shut off the water until the washer was actually operating. For some reason it didn't want to play well with my GE Energy Star washer, they made several attempts to get it to work but it just wasn't going to happen. They refunded the cost of the valve and I paid for a couple of service calls with no complaints- it wasn't their fault that the valve didn't work.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
In both cases I switched to Emergency Heat when the outside coil froze up- otherwise I would have no heat at all. Thus, the system would thaw if ambient temps were above freezing-
That was a perfectly natural thing for you to do and I mentioned that possibility in my first response. You failed to acknowledge that event occurred. From there the problem is that you never considered how that potentially added a variable to the situation. Just like I tried to explain by referencing the Swiss Cheese model. From there the outcome of the repair attempt simply becomes more random, and one didn't get to succeed and one did. That's about as random as we could ever get isn't it?
I know, you and your fellow "professionals" are the only honest people in the entire world. So noted. Funny thing; no one else in these forums has ever accused me of being dishonest
This is where you continue to blow it. While I keep getting you to change your story you only see it as being dishonest and that's your perception of the situation. Mine however is only that your perspective of what really occurred was flawed, and therefore your perception simply keeps changing from where it was just a few hours ago. Its easy to say that you were never dishonest through-out this exchange, you simply weren't accurate with your eye witness account.
What you just experienced with this exchange is exactly what techs go through when something doesn't work out for any reason. Many times there really doesn't need to be blame, and it doesn't have to be anyones fault. You just have to get up, make it right learn from it and move on. You present yourself as being tech savvy and capable of doing our job. The oil filler cap event was me simply forcing you to feel what its like to have a failure projected onto you whether you were really at fault for it or not. When you handle that level of unfairness graciously and learn not to jump to false conclusions in diagnostics then you will have made great strides towards really being able to do my job. That's all that ever was, nothing more, nothing less.
Yea I can be a real Pr#$ when I
wantneed to, but you gotta admit you do tend to make it easy. If the public wants better techs, then they first need to know how to find the better techs. Shops need to grow better techs and that it takes time, decades to be precise. There will be dissapointments along the way and like it or not people just need to get over it when it happens. I keep envisioning the analogy of buying a kid a bike and then the first time they fall off throwing it away and blaming them for falling off. You wouldn't do that to the kid but that's exactly what happened to your first AC tech.BTW. Every time you use one of your lines like a tech not having opposable thumbs or some other disparaging remark you do deserve to have someone jump on your [non-permissible content removed]. How many more times will we do this dance before you learn that it's not OK to do that and you won't have any fun when I call you out over it?
You think he should be given the benefit of the doubt; that I should have turned this into a learning experience for him?
Thanks, but methinks that you are selling yourself short, it is obvious thatyou come by it naturally.
If the public wants better techs, then they first need to know how to find the better techs.
Which is exactly what I did when I asked my contractor friend for a referral. And the guy he suggested fixed the problem.
I keep envisioning the analogy of buying a kid a bike and then the first time they fall off throwing it away and blaming them for falling off. You wouldn't do that to the kid but that's exactly what happened to your first AC tech.
Again, the definition of insanity becomes relevant...
BTW. Every time you use one of your lines like a tech not having opposable thumbs or some other disparaging remark you do deserve to have someone jump on your [non-permissible content removed].
Sorry, I guess the truth hurts. Some techs perform as if they lack opposable thumbs. So do some lawyers and judges. Some from both fields are nitwits. Sad but true. Jump, fume, and fret all you want- I'll continue to call them the way I see them.
How many more times will we do this dance before you learn that it's not OK to do that and you won't have any fun when I call you out over it?
Me? I'm having a ball- as are more than a few lurkers/spectators from other boards. Your eagerness to spring to the defense of the most inept and clueless is truly entertaining.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
After all this time you honestly have to ask???
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
From a consumers perspective, we don't care or want to hear about excuses. We just want it fixed right the first time, at a good or reasonable price. I don't need or require patience to wait for a tech to develop into someone who can fix the problem properly. If I'm an owner I don't send someone out who isnt ready. If I do and there's a problem with the repair, well then it's on the owner in the way of lost business.
I don't owe my mechanics or repair people my allegiance. I'm not married to them. If I think they cost me money, I move on to someone else who can do the job. Let the owner of the business who just lost a customer "get over it."
In my wheel alignment/balance case, there was incompetence (setting my tire pressure to 43 psi instead of 30 psi), ...what appeared to me as false mis-information (the weight of engine causing abnormal wear on a car with only 22k miles), and redemption (Big O balanced the tires properly on the third try).
The setting of tire pressure at 43 psi was a block headed move, one worthy of the "opposable thumb" remark. (unless you have some inside knowledge I am unaware of.) The way the car was bouncing all over the road, as my wife described, it was probably set at 53 psi. That one could have put our lives in danger.
Will I go back? Don't know, time heals all wounds. They did get the job done, that is a plus, that they almost killed me... well, I see that as a negative. :sick:
Well stated. That's exactly how it appears to me.
Thanks.
Doc sure knows his stuff. Probably the smartest guy on these forums that I've encountered, probably just below Tidester (former host) and just above shifty.
Shifty and Tidester are really nice guys though, who never used their intellect to bully other members... or use other members for their own amusement. Willing to look at both sides of an argument. Yes, I know they are hosts, but they are human too. I've had my moments in the sun I know, but I've learned to be more opened minded here. Isell and others taught me what it's like to be a car salesman, and doc boy more about what it's like to be an auto tech. So to them I am thankful.
Steve? He creamed a bear in the snoze with a rock.. that's bad$$$ enough for me. :P
I think doc should try to treat members here like he would his own customers. Since that seems to be his purpose here, to educate.
The independent plumbers generally don't follow that strategy, and either just quote their best-guess at what they think the job will cost or charge by the hour, with a standard "site visit" fee added in on top.
Anyway, one of my friends had a Mustang II(so did my girlfriend; that particular model motivated me to study hard- so that I would land a job that ensured I would never have to own or drive one ever again...) So one day my friend tells me that the car is stalling after it has been driven for 10-20 minutes. After 30 minutes or so it would fire up, run another 10-20 minutes and stall again. I tell him it could be anything from a ignition module that fails hot to a fuel system issue. I suggest taking it to a dealer or indie shop.
So... he takes it to his nearest Ford dealer. They change the fuel filter and "blow out the fuel lines." I told him that I hoped it worked, but that my guess was that whatever clogged the lines was still in the tank.
Two days later, the trusty steed stalls again. Back to the dealer it goes. This time they again blow out the lines and "install new EGR valve." I thought that call was a little sketchy, so I looked under the hood and found an EGR valve that looked like it had been on the car since it was new(Ford V8s of that vintage had an EGR valve assembly that was sandwiched between the carb and the intake manifold- I had dealt with them while doing my time in DIY mechanic purgatory servicing my parents' 1973 Bronco and 1974 Maverick). At this point I'm thinking the next thing they should do is drop the tank and clean it out.
Anyone care to guess what happened next? This time I decide to go back to the dealer with my friend; I tell him to ask to speak to the Service Manager and to politely explain that the car had stalled again and to ask why a new EGR valve was installed(As for me, I was going to act as if I was just the guy who was giving him a ride- I really wanted to hear what the guy would say.) Anyways... when we go back to the dealer the SM comes out and apologizes for the problem. He pops the hood and pokes around the air cleaner and intake manifold for a minute and then announces, "I'm sorry for the mistake- this car doesn't even have an EGR valve. I think what we need to do is drop the gas tank and clean it out." At this point I've decided that any landing you walk away from is a good one- if the SM wants to take the EGR valve off the bill because he thinks the car doesn't have one I'm not going to get in his way. Sometimes a failure cascade works to your advantage.
And yes, the car ran fine after the tank was cleaned. My girlfriend and I parted amicably- but not before I talked her into ditching the Mustang II for a new Accord coupe. My buddy and I both passed the Bar, thereby relegating future Mustang II ownership to the ash heap of history. And I met my future wife, who permanently endeared herself to me by locating my first BMW: a 1973 Bavaria 3.0. Talk about living HAPPILY ever after...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Hope this helps. Most joists or beams run north and south and they are about a foot apart. This is a cross joist that runs East and West and they are about 20 feet apart. Yest, the floor could be nailed to them. Some of these are steel beams. This one is 3 thicknesses of wood, each is about an inch thick. Even with the 4 1/4 inch pipe running through it, there is maybe almost 3 inches of wood below and 1 1/2 to 2" of wood above it.
I doubt it would compromise the strength at all....all looks pretty solid.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
As a business owner these are the kinds of situations that will keep you up a night. For a businesses customers, should a problem ever arrise because of an employee's conduct of performance you react and deal with it efficiently and in the customers favor. Then you deal with the employee. That's part of owning a business.
The manager said, you got a price of $900 and you could have said no to the work at that point and there would be no charge...they do give free estimates.
But, this was already Thursday afternoon (they said they would be there first thing in the morning) and we had 20 people visiting on Sunday. The plumber made it sound like a major job...cutting through support beams and going over heat ducts as well. I thought it sounded like 5 hours worth of work!
So, yes, the $80 was part of the $900. With tax and all and a few extra parts it was close to $1100 in total. Like I say, I don't mind paying extra for his knowledge and beautiful work - even cleaned up the saw dust, but I really think the service part of the job was excessive. I could have said no and sent him away with nothing if I didn't like the estimate....but, I wanted to be reasonable too...just give me a fair price for 2 hours work.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I got "burned" by a place like that one. I had a problem with my Lennox forced air heater. I called a small repair company that has done work for my parents. They cleaned and adjusted a few things on multiple occasions, but it would either be finicky or not work at all.
I got tired of fussing with it and called a big local repair shop. The kind that advertises, and has 50 trucks. The guy looked at it and explained this and that.... blah blah blah.
Quoted my $800 for a new controller, rewire and thermocouple. What was I to do? I let him fix it. A few days after he left I Googled the part # and found it only cost about $200 and I could have easily done the work myself in a little over an hour.
In this case, I had to pay for the knowledge of diagnosing what was wrong. In any event, 7 years later it is still working great. This applies to cars as well. I can change parts, but its the diagnosis that I fail on. Sometimes, buying the equipment to test something can cost more than just having it done.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
You make lots of good points gimme. First, I think what I was trying to say was "cross bracing". This is the way they explain it - Cross bracing involves nailing small wooden braces from the top of one floor joist to the bottom of the next joist, and vice versa, forming an X. That's what this looks like...lots of X's along each beam.
Either they quote you by the $ per job or by the $ per hour and number of hours.
Yes, and that is what the manager said at first, we don't do jobs by the hour, but by the job itself. I understand that, but, there has to be some relationship between the time spent and the amount charged.
Me thinks they sized you up at a certain income level and gouged you.
I think so too....a big house and a nice car. I think they figured this would make an easy day for the guy. Unfortunately, we are at the mercy of these guys to some extent.
you've seen shows like Market Place
I have seen Market Place and the ones about home repairs are scarry. They do sting operations with garage door openners, where just the beam has to be aligned and it is surprising how many workers will sell a new circuit board for a few $100s.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
And, you are pretty knowledgeable, think about all the people these guys see who know nothing about furnaces. That's the reason it is hard to trust any workman including mechanics (sorry to say it doc....but, a few bad apples really do ruin it for every one.
Since the plumbing incident I ask people who they use for plumbing, painting, cars, electrical etc. and make a note of who they suggest. When it happens it is too late to try and find someone you can trust.
Another thing, as we both found out, the company that has been around for 50 years and has the biggest fleet isn't necessarily the best...sometimes they last that long because they know how to rip people off. I always like the guy who takes pride in his work and just wants to make a nice honest living. Our heating guys are like that, never oversell, do good work at a reasonable price.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Do I let the owner of the company know? I had to repair it yesterday after realizing I felt moisture on the trap in the line while cleaning it out more. Fact check: I believe the glue makes the PVC more brittle. The crack occured where the two 90-degree turns were glued together with a small piece of line between them: they are butted together there. Is it 20-year old wear and tear?
To remain automotive, let me say I did not go back to the mechanic who replaced my intake manifold gaskets and left me with a small, slow seep in the 90-degree heater bypass. It took me a year to find it was occurring. Would I be offending him if I let him know 3 years later when I have him replaced them with updated metal tubes and new o-rings?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I guess what I'm saying is that $100 isn't what it used to be, but we all have some sort of mindset that influences us (in one way or another) to remember when $100 was what was referred to as "real money".
Thinking about the repair as a $0.75 nylon gear makes the repair seem like extortion, but IMO, once you take the big picture into account, it isn't so bad.
Putting it into car talk, I can remember when I could buy a full set of tires, mounted and balanced, for the price of a single RFT on my 328i. The funny thing is, even back then, I thought the tires were expensive.
and just like with cars, it is only a $.75 part if you know how to figure out what to replace, and know how to replace it. Otherwise, just like with Cardoc and his kin, you are paying for the expertise you don't have (and the tools/equipment). Or of course, you are just not willing to invest your time on the job!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I really don't focus on the price; my priority is competence. I know that none of the shops I use are the cheapest places to get service, but they are first-rate, professional, and I can be confident the job will be done right. As I've said before, while I sometimes consider other brands, I'm reluctant to stray from the Munich fold again. I really don't want to be in the same situation I am with my Mazda- having to travel to another state to find a dealer that hires competent individuals who can communicate using complete sentences...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Oh oh, I hear another battle coming up - them's sound like fightin words!
I will agree though with the basic premise, it is better to pay a bit more initially than have to get it redone later. Then, once it's done you just hope you don't need any other things fixed for a long time.
And, it is true, if a service call is $75 then the cost of a part, knowledge to know what was wrong, the work involved to install it, gets you to $110 prety quickly.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Not sure you have a lot to complain about...
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