Well, I suppose for that slight difference in price I would have gone with the lifetime wheel balance deal too although I doubt I would have ever used it.
I suppose a wheel weight could fall off somehow but then, I could win the lotto too.
I can't even remember the last time I have had a wheel alignment done on any of my cars. I'm lazy about rotations and my tires have been wearing even.
Tires have the green nitrogen caps. He said he thought benefits were bull, till he researched nitrogen. Now he highly recommends, less moisture in tires.
One doesn't need any higher than background level of nitrogen in their tires in order to remove moisture. Using the same type of air dryer that auto painters use will accomplish the very same thing.
The only time having Nitrogen filled tires is really handy is if you are in a situation in which your tires are close to an ignition source and you have a reasonable expectation your tires might explode, like you find in a fighter aircraft, or you wish to maximize safety, as one would in a passenger aircraft.
I used to rotate my MINI tires every 7500 mile service but after I noticed that it made no difference in tire life
A long time ago I rotated tires on two different cars - right after rotating the tires wore out rapidly. So, I haven't rotated tires for over 20 years - except on one car that had snow tires. They were putting them on any way.
Haven't had a problem since I stopped. If the rear tires or the fronts wore out faster it wasn't a big deal, rather replace tires in two's anyway...besides, they last longer for me.
With AWD all 4 tires will probably have to be changed at once. But, I still won't rotate the tires, probably comes out to less to replace all 4 when one gets bad enough. It is costly rotating tires...not just money but time. And, I may be better off and I may not be, so I'll just have to chance it.
Just an opinion, but I don't think I would get an alignment done unless I actually noticed something wrong...odd wearing tire, pulling to side, steering wheel off centre :sick:
Well, Big O seems to have gotten those tires balanced. They rebalanced on their best machine, test drove, still a bit shakey at 80mph, put tires back on at their original position, and rebalanced again. Picked car up after hours, runs smooth at 80mph. Thanks shifty. If I hadn't seen your reply, I wouldn't have asked my wife to take the car on the interstate, she wouldn't have discovered the bad vibration, and tomorrow morning 7 of us would have been bobble heading all the way to Gatlingburg.
That is just what I call "pseudo-science", which is rampant in the alternative health industry, for instance. You take a basically logical principle, like "engines weigh a lot" and then apply them in an illogical way---"heavy engines wear tires abnormally".
So you have heard part of the information, and then assigned your own perspective to it. The weight of the engine does have in impact on the front end geometry. Over time that weight causes the frame rails twist inwards at the top on a rear wheel drive where the upper control arm would be connected, and on front wheel drive the top of the strut towers push inwards simply because of the force of gravity. That's why as the car gets older, the camber naturally goes negative as the car ages, so when you re-align the car, you have to make adjustments that move the camber back out positive to the specs. (Negative camber has the top of the wheel leaning inwards, no camber at all has the wheel standing straight up and down, and positive camber has the top of the wheel leaning outwards).
Now if nothing else happens to bend something, as the camber angle changes, the toe angle changes too. Dynamically you have to envision the bottom ball joint not moving, the top ball joint moving inwards, and the tie rod holding which ever side of the knuckle that it is connected to rigid. If the tie rod is in the front of the knuckle, the toe goes outwards, and if it is in the rear of the knuckle, the toe goes inwards.
Regarding alignment of worn tires--if you have, say, excessive wear from toe-in or toe-out way out of spec, that *might* screw up alignment because we don't have equal tire depth side to side.
Would you like to try and rephrase that? We don't align the tires, we align the wheels. While tire height can have some impact I show the students a little trick. We measure out a front end, and then while watching the reading live, start letting air out of one on the front tires. It takes a significant difference in air pressure to actually make a measurable difference in the alignment measurements.
Probably the biggest issue with aligning worn tires is verifying the alignment. The machine can insist that alignment is dead-on to specification, but the car would still pull on a road test. So then what to you do? Mis-align the car so that it tracks straight?
That depends on what you mean by misalign. You can use cross camber and cross caster variation to correct for road crown. But on a level road (of which there really are very few) that cross angle could result in a lead towards center. Tire leads, where a tire rolls more like a styrofoam cup and pushes or pulls a car off line can sometimes be negated simply by rotating it off of the front axle, or by pairing it with one that has the opposite lead. Needless to say, tire leads are a PITA, and sometimes the best course of action is to simply discard the tire.
If a vehicle is aligned correctly as far as caster, camber and toe are concerned, that doesn't mean there isn't a problem. SAI (steering axis inclination) is every bit as capable of causing a lead just like camber is. In fact many times an alignment is done and the tech corrects the normal three angles and makes the SAI go even further out of spec. On todays FWD vehicles with a full cradle, the cradle could be pushed to one side or another. SAI is the angle from the top of the strut or upper ball joint, down through the lower ball joint. Picture the cradle being pushed to the passengers side of the car. That would at first cause the camber on the drivers side to go way positive as that ball joint moved inwards towards the centerline of the car, and the passengers side camber go way negative as that ball joint moved out from the centerline of the car. During the alignment the tech adjusts the camber back to spec, but the cradle is still shoved over to the right. The car pulls (leads) to the left in that condition even though "everything is in spec" well everything they are used to seeing that is.
Owned a 75 VW Rabbit that I put 112k miles on. Lots of issues but it ran good 99 % of the time. The rear tires never showed much wear, so I never rotated them. Just did the fronts and every other tire change rotated the backs to the front. Now, most oil changes include a rotation -- they check the brakes and now that dealers sell tires, are looking to sell you a set if they are needed. Paying $25 every 7500 miles for rotations gives you $100 toward a couple of new ones at 30k miles. Not a bad plan actually.
Tires have the green nitrogen caps. He said he thought benefits were bull, till he researched nitrogen. Now he highly recommends, less moisture in tires.
In the everyday automotive world nitrogen inflation goes beyond what really needs to be done. However in other applications, there is some merit. Here is what tire rack has to say about it.
FWIW, I fill every tire with at least 78% pure nitrogen. :P
Did get an alignment for $69 as inside of tires showing abnormal wear.
That's why I don't own an alignment machine. I can't justify spending $50,000 on a machine and rack for $70 a pop. The problem is, most people only get what we call a toe and go with the other angles being ignored. If you look alignments up in the flat rate manual you will see them listed between 1.5 and 2.4 hours for a two wheel and a four wheel fully adjustable car. Since the chain stores menu the pricing, and don't pay the techs correctly to spend the time, they usually learn to adjust the toe because its the major tire wearing angle, and just be close with the camber and caster. You get what you pay for applies when it comes to alignments. It's just most people don't realize the price is too cheap to be right.
Edited: Never heard of this... a 90 day guarantee on alignment? A one year guarantee would have been like 20 bucks more.
Yea and a lifetime one is probably $140 or so. If you have a really good tech, he/she will take the time to really do the alignment correctly for that. One of the neat things is once done correctly the angles change very little over time. However the car will settle as described in a previous response, but pushing the camber back out will normally also bring the toe angle right back into spec. The problem is the techs get paid what the customer is paying, so they in a sense make out on the first alignment, but lose on any subsequent checks and adjustments. In the end its a bad scheme for the techs and the customers alike because it promotes rushing and sloppyness on the rechecks and doesn't reward precision workmanship.
The dealers call it "flat rate" and yes a tech makes less for a given repair that is done under warranty, then they would if the same job was customer pay. In other words, flat rate isn't flat.
Also, isn't there something about manufacturers not making information available to independent garages so they can get all the repair business?
Myth. You can go to the R2R thread here (right to repair) http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f117d5f?displayRecent and see some of the dialog. The simple facts come down to shops constantly trying to cut each others throats on prices and so they in turn have to make cuts in business expenses. Those cuts show up routinely in the tools and schools, and that lead to shops and techs thinking that they didn't have everything they needed because of the manufacturers holding them back. To some degree back in the early 2000nds there was some discrepancies but it actually came as a surprise to the O.E's. In some cases they simply never thought about what we needed for their cars, they just figured we would find a way just like we always have.
I have a "Zukerburg" idea if you are interested. You see we have this app or something - and people go to a garage to have their car fixed, and you can hear what is going on. And, then you can advise the civilian on whether he is being ripped off. Seriously, us ordinary civilians need someone like you to explain these things to us when we go to a garage
We have companies like RepairPal that think they can do that now. There are many great ideas that just don't work, and that's one of them. When you follow that link the first thing you will notice is their Top Shop program. I could spend hours explaining how it would really fit into a community and while I have everything going for me that makes my shop qualify, the cost for me is prohibitive. Plus no shop around me has made the investment in the tools and software like I have, so they undercut me on certain prices, and simply turn away the more complicated work. That works to make some of my prices appear to be out of the ordinary and by the repair pal program which shops prices by a local economy tries to play that as gouging. Keep in mind you have seen some of the comparisons for pricing, Shity quotes labors that are double what I charge, so I'm not expensive by any ones measure. But I'm not as cheap as some of my competitors.
Here is a guy whose BMW has run away on it's own twice now. He caught it on a surveilance camera. BMW says there is nothing wrong with the car, he should use the parking break as it may be sliding on the ice.
First, no doubt about one thing. If the car won't stay put then the parking brake and curbing the wheels when its parked is what any driver is supposed to learn how to do.
I might have glanced at that too quickly, were the video's posted? How steep is his driveway? A park pawl can only hold just so much force and then the vehicle can roll. With all of the different designs of park systems that I can think of, and not knowing exactly how this Audi is designed it would be inappropriate to even venture a guess. If there is a problem, this won't be the only one that ever does this. It wouldn't surprise me if there is a maximum angle that the manufacturer warrants the system to hold without the parking brake, and then one with the parking brake.
Did the owner ever read his manual and see what it says about parking his car on an incline?
No, sorry, saying that the weight of a particular car's engine caused the irregular tire wear is utterly ridiculous.
All cars have engines, and all engines weight a lot, therefore all cars have irregular tire wear?
Don't think so.
If you've seen severe tire wear due to say 'scrubbing', there is plenty of differential to affect alignment specs. If this were not true, then all alignments on badly worn tires would be successful, but they are not.
Paying $25 every 7500 miles for rotations gives you $100 toward a couple of new ones at 30k miles. Not a bad plan actually.
Personally, I find I always lose on those plans. Either another garage will sell the same tires for less than the $100 discount or they will just take the $100 off full MSRP. Or, I'll trade the car before I ever collect. I think, and it is a bit of a gamble, I will still come out ahead by just taking my chances and not bothering to rotate tires, but, I'll probably only keep the car for 4 years, or 60K miles max. So, I may need a new set of tires at some point, but I would even if rotating worked. I think I will be ahead of the game if I don't rotate tires.
my new RDX has the same thing on the cap. And I looked in the owners manual, and nowhere does it specify what grade. Just says to use SAE certified oil, but no distinction of F, G QQ or TMI.
We have companies like RepairPal that think they can do that now.
Thank you, I give you lots of credit, you answered 2 of my questions in great detail and explained your answer completely, and in language even I can understand.
No, sorry, saying that the weight of a particular car's engine caused the irregular tire wear is utterly ridiculous.
That's not what was said. The weight of the engine over time causes the frame rails to twist inwards, as well as the strut towers on machphereson type front suspensions to pull inwards, both of which cause the camber on the cars to go negative, and that results in a toe angle change. I guess you never learned how to do alignments.
All cars have engines, and all engines weight a lot, therefore all cars have irregular tire wear?
You're mixing apples and oranges. Learn a little about the subject, then we can go further.
BTW, I don't have an alignment machine in my shop because I specailize in electronics and cannot justify the expense of owning one for the return that it would generate. But I love doing alignments and have aligned thousands of cars in my career. Today I teach four different levels of classes on the subject. I'm pretty sure that I know what can and cannot be done. I even teach the techs how to detect a problem with the Ackerman angle during a caster swing.
Start by scrolling towards the bottom of the Hunter video page. You will find the basic alignment videos, and especially the ones that discuss what causes an alignment to change.
SAE World Congress Panel Tackles Service Technician Challenges By Sheila Brennan
The increased technology density found in vehicles today (more ECU's, high voltage charging systems, electric powertrain, in-vehicle Infotainment (IVI), etc.) can negatively impact service efficacy, and will likely continue to impact service of vehicles going forward. This was the topic of my presentation at SAE World Congress 2013 last week in Detroit. For each data slide I presented, I invited our panel of subject matter experts to comment on the challenge, and what needs to be done to overcome these difficulties.
Our panelists included the best and brightest that lead service initiatives from Ford Motor Company, General Motors, Toyota Motor Sales, The National Institute for Automotive Service Excellence (ASE), and Madison Area Technical College. These experts, many of them also members of the Society of Automotive Engineers'(SAE) Service Technology Program Committee (STPC), have not only been involved in discussions of this study data before, but also helped design and field the study. Incidentally, IDC Manufacturing Insights has already published three dedicated research pieces from this data-rich study with over 2000 global participants: The Impact of Vehicle Electrification on Service Technician Safety, Service Information Criticality in Combating Increasing Vehicle Service Complexity, and Service Readiness as a Key Business Practice.
However, interestingly, a piece of research that had an overwhelming response at the conference is one that I have not previously written about: the frequency with which technicians perform uncompensated research for a service event.
Our data shows that over 60% of service technicians from both dealerships and independent repair facilities must frequently search for and research information in order to perform certain services, and are not compensated for this research (See Figure below.) In other words, the flat rate pay system prevalent in the automotive industry does not reward technicians for performing research to execute service correctly. One panelist commented that actually quite the opposite is true; flat rate pay discourages use of diagnostics. Another panelist indicated that from his experience, only 0.3 hours of flat rate time for any diagnostics is paid for, yet many diagnostic routines take significantly longer.
Given the increasing complexity of vehicles, proliferating model configurations and reductions in the frequency of 'pattern failures', this trend can be expected to accelerate. Furthermore, because warranty coverage typically pays for actual 'repairs', technicians have greater incentive to replace parts and less incentive to spend time diagnosing root problem cause. This perverse incentive drives up warranty costs and no-trouble-found rates.
FREQUENCY OF UNCOMPENSATED RESEARCH BY TECHNICIANS
The panelists established that, at least in part, this fundamental compensation issue detracts from the industry's ability to attract the best and the brightest technicians. Additionally, since swift, accurate and cost effective repairs are such a critical customer-facing issue, and can potentially impact brand loyalty, automakers, dealership franchisees and independent repair shops alike must look more carefully at solutions to these issues. The panelists agreed that the industry as a whole requires a paradigm shift from its 20th century business model into the 21st century. This new paradigm includes supporting the upfront investment in technician training, tools and service information to perform better diagnostics, building these added costs into pricing structures, and fixing the broken flat rate pay system. These moves toward approaching 21st century cars with a 21st century business model will ultimately have a positive downstream effect on warranty costs and customer satisfaction.
I look forward to your comments on these issues! Please also contact me directly (sbrennan@idc.com) for a complementary copy of my complete SAE World Congress presentation.
I don't know where Shifty got the information that had him not understanding how and why the alignment of a vehicle changes as it ages, even without direct physical damage. As you an see through those training videos that I linked, there is a lot more to doing an alignment than most people comprehend. In many cases the factory doesn't even provide correction solutions beyond toe angle adjustments and consumer pressure to be the cheapest teaches the techs to abandon the aftermarket solutions to specific alignment problems. Worse than that is when we have to deal with someone's car that requires additional steps to properly restore it to ideal specifications and our reward for learning how to do that and caring enough to even try are the accusations of greed and over selling while the uninformed person plays the hero.
Many of the lessons learned on cars years ago that if they are still around are now collectors items still hold true. Cars like the Buick Electra, and Oldsmobile Regency that had the option for a much heavier engine than the standard one showed greatly accelerated frame twist with that option in place. The factory adjustments would quickly run out of travel, and the aftermarket solution was an offset upper control arm shaft and bushings that allowed for an additional 1 degree of camber correction. The cars with the lighter engines still aged and twisted, but the rate of change was much slower. Shifty's comment of "That is just what I call "pseudo-science", which is rampant in the alternative health industry, for instance. You take a basically logical principle, like "engines weigh a lot" and then apply them in an illogical way---"heavy engines wear tires abnormally". probably looks great to someone without training and experience but it leads to misunderstanding the job.
When those cars were new, the four shim packs used to make the caster and camber adjustments would be some 1/2" thick on average. Overtime, shims would be taken out, which would move the upper control arms outward and restore the camber and caster angles. Once there were no shims left, offset shafts where then required and they added another 1/4" (one degree) of travel. By that time, that means that the frame rails had twisted as much as 3/4" each for a total of 1 1/2 inches towards the centerline of the car. In severe cases of fatigue the car could be put on a frame machine and the engine bay re-arched. It's a pretty dramatic picture when you envision the frame rails rolling that far. People who preached the information that Shifty has repeated have literally tried to criminalize understanding how and why a vehicles geometry changes and needs restored at some point in a vehicles lifetime. Of course that seems to happen with a lot of things that techs have to do when to comes to fixing cars. In any other career studying to improve your skills merits rewards. Working harder to get better results should garner more respect. Searching out a solution that corrects an alignment angle such as a part like this one http://www.jegs.com/p/Specialty-Products/SPC-Jeep-Dodge-Offset-Ball-Joints/75517- 0/10002/-1 should be appreciated. But no, try and sell that to someone so that you can really fix a problem with their car and it gets twisted into being a scam by people who really don't know what they are talking about. The argument basically comes down to "What do you mean it's going to be $XXX to align my car, you said it's only supposed to be $69. You're trying to rip me off"
After a few conflicts like that for trying to do the job right, who can blame a tech for simply setting the toe and moving onto the next car even if it is wrong.
the factory doesn't even provide correction solutions
It's called the BIG hammer.
Funny thing about "research" - lots of professional types, including doctors and lawyers, wind up doing lots of research that they can't bill for. Or they could bill, but their clients couldn't afford to pay for all of it. "Consultants" wind up doing a lot of that too.
Come to think of it, lots of docs and lawyers and CPAs, etc. do "flat rate" jobs, and if they have to do some extra research on a case, that's just part of the deal.
lots of professional types, including doctors and lawyers, wind up doing lots of research that they can't bill for.
Yeh, that's what I was thinking too. Most jobs these days require putting in extra time that workers are not compensated for.
Retail industry makes employees managers or asstd managers so they have to work all kinds of hours without extra pay.
Real estate salespeople or car salesman, do their work and often end up with nothing.
TV and radio people attend functions around the city...it is part of the job.
Teachers take extra courses at night or during the summer.
We all do it....and that mechanic rate chart probably has some time built in to do research for a repair....most repairs seem to take less time than the billing chart shows.
In my particular situation, the car is less than a year old, so Big O' s explanation on how engine weight could have caused the problem wasnt appliciable. According to what you wrote earlier.
I did call the Big O service advisor back and thank him for taking the extra time and effort in getting my car right. I also asked him to thank the tech for me for a job well done. The service advisor thanked me for taking the time to call, ask that I join Facebook and give Big O props. He also said getting tires with wear patterns properly balanced was difficult.
I dont mind "a" upsell, but multiple upsells without even looking at the car is a bit much.
And if it makes you feel any better.... both shifty AND you are my hero.
Come to think of it, lots of docs and lawyers and CPAs, etc. do "flat rate" jobs, and if they have to do some extra research on a case, that's just part of the deal.
Yea and a lifetime one is probably $140 or so. If you have a really good tech, he/she will take the time to really do the alignment correctly for that. One of the neat things is once done correctly the angles change very little over time. However the car will settle as described in a previous response, but pushing the camber back out will normally also bring the toe angle right back into spec. The problem is the techs get paid what the customer is paying, so they in a sense make out on the first alignment, but lose on any subsequent checks and adjustments. In the end its a bad scheme for the techs and the customers alike because it promotes rushing and sloppyness on the rechecks and doesn't reward precision workmanship.
Like I said in post 3087, the regular price for a lifetime alignment at the Firestone store I go to charges $140 but they had a special going in April 2010 for $110 so I jumped at that offer. I agree that unless you hit a lot of pot holes, the alignment should NOT change once it is set correctly. Heck, for that matter, if it’s set incorrectly it will maintain that incorrect setting until someone sets it correctly. What I like about the Firestone store I go to is that they give me a print out that shows the as-found and as-left condition of the alignment that was done. A couple times they didn’t have to make any adjustments. One time the tech said one of the adjustments (I think it was camber) was within specs on one side but to “give me my money’s worth” he set it to the more perfect setting because the other side was at the more perfect setting when he took his initial readings.
As I said before, because I have babied the tires and alignment on the Genny, the Firestone store manager had no problem giving me an “early adjustment” at around 31K miles because the tires were not going to give me the 40K mileage that Firestone said their Bridgestone Serenity tread wear warranty would give me on those tires.
As for not wanting to invest $50K on an alignment gizmo, I don’t blame you for that. Until you sell many/many tires like a tire store I can’t imagine an indy shop having one of those. I have only seen one alignment machine at an indy shop and that was because an indy tire store was in that building before the indy mechanic moved in. I know a lot of dealers around me, except for the mega guy, don’t even have one. They farm out alignments to tire stores.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I didn't mean what YOU said about engine weight, --I was referring to the service writer's claim that the irregular tire wear was caused by that car having a particularly heavy engine.
As the old saying goes for diagnosticians "When you are in Texas and you hear hoofbeats, yell HORSES (or CATTLE) not ZEBRAS!"
Of all the possible causes of irregular tire wear on a person's car, a "heavy engine" would come up on my list of possibilities about 101 out of 100. :P
I wasn't trying to "criminalize" anyone---I was just calling a foul on the BS meter.
The discussion at Big O wasn't about the esoteria of the effect of engine weight on suspension over time---the discussion was " your heavy engine caused your tires to wear funny". In other words, nothing WE did.
Doc, saying that to a customer is like saying "The reason you woke up this morning 1 inch shorter was because your head is too heavy".
I used to rotate my MINI tires every 7500 mile service but after I noticed that it made no difference in tire life (which generally sucks anyway on a MINI running performance tires) I gave it up.
Well, my G37 has asymmetric tire sizes front to back, and the tires are directional. So no way to rotate them, unless have the tires flipped on the rims and the swapped side to side.
I didn't mean what YOU said about engine weight, --I was referring to the service writer's claim that the irregular tire wear was caused by that car having a particularly heavy engine.
If that's what YOU meant, then why didn't you say that instead of leaving it open for interpretation? This is one of the problems that the trade has always faced. Someone takes half a statement, and makes a proclamation from it, and then a lay person receives an incorrect perception.
Of all the possible causes of irregular tire wear on a person's car, a "heavy engine" would come up on my list of possibilities about 101 out of 100.
I wasn't trying to "criminalize" anyone---I was just calling a foul on the BS meter.
So you took second hand information, from someone who doesn't know the details that are at play, and raised the BS flag. Can you see the problem yet? How many people could listen to me explain what I wrote there and then reliably repeat the details to a third person?
The discussion at Big O wasn't about the esoteria of the effect of engine weight on suspension over time---the discussion was " your heavy engine caused your tires to wear funny". In other words, nothing WE did
I wasn't privy to that discussion, if I was I would know for certain what was said, and who said it. If the service writer there isn't a technician then he/she could easily screw up the informational details. Even so, we still had another persons description in between before you even got the story.
If he/she was trying to explain how the alignment changes I just showed you that in context the weight of the engine does come into play, which is in complete contradiction to what you wrote. Should I have just ignored how incorrect what you wrote was? In my book if they really said what you say they did then both of you are just as wrong. You see no excuses, just a picture of what probably occurred there and did occur here. The difference for the other readers is that the incorrect picture painted here as well wasn't allowed to stand like it would have in the past.
If that's what YOU meant, then why didn't you say that instead of leaving it open for interpretation?
FWIW, I interpreted Shifty's weight comment just the way he explained it - as simply dead weight on the wheels - and not any other effects such as the frame twisting you discussed.
So you took second hand information, from someone who doesn't know the details that are at play, and raised the BS flag.
I wasn't sending anyone to be beheaded, so the standards of evidence don't really have to be so rigid that I have to interrogate one of our members---- and given that the shop had to re-do the job, I would say that the customer was 'brushed off', yes, with a comment that was too bizarre for anyone to just make up. How could he mis-hear "engine weight"? Engine Fate? Engine Mate?
As for "misinterpretation", okay! point taken, but remember, we are in an electronic environment with lots of fingers typing away, and no face to face, so when it doubt, it's always good to ask what the person means to say if it is ambiguous to you.
Doc, I know you don't visit Answers, but I am constantly asking people to re-phrase their question because of ambiguity.
So anecdotal data is always suspect but some data is a lot less suspect than others.
For instance, if your wife comes back and says the mechanic said it was the "timing"---that's ambigious---engine timing, ignition timing, what?
But if she comes back and says that the muffler bearings are bad, that's not so ambigious as to what's going on.
Back when I ran a shop, I talked to a vendor who sold a lot of alignment parts to various shops including a couple of Firestone stores.
He once referred to a "Firestone Alignment"
" Open the hood, bang on the fender, set the toe and let it go"
He also said he sold them a lot of what he called "show shims". There were alignment shims that were so thin that they basically did nothing. They were, however, bright and shiny so afterwards, when the customer opened his hood it would look like something had been done.
A " Lifetime Alignment" may be a good thing for the few people who actually need this done often. For the stores that sell it, it's if nothing else, a great way to get the customer back in the shop. Heck, maybe the lower ball joints have worn a bit since the last alignment?
It's an expensive insurance policy of sorts that in my opinion is of little value to most drivers.
Having said this, I'm sure there are a lot of Firestone stores that do an excellent job at what they do.
that's correct for your car, no rotation, obviously, and I hope no shop is stupid enough to try it.
Want to bet? I used a tire shop-only once-where I had to tell the guy mounting the Pirelli P77s that the big block letters spelling "OUTSIDE" on one sidewall of each tire were put there for a reason. And yes, the shop was a Pirelli dealer... :sick:
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
FWIW, I interpreted Shifty's weight comment just the way he explained it - as simply dead weight on the wheels - and not any other effects such as the frame twisting you discussed
That's my point. It was easy to take what he wrote and without a full understanding of the subject you could easily take what he wrote as the final answer. I could have easily just said "yes it does" instead of putting some time into the answer that I did here. But experience in the trade has taught me that if I had done that "my opinion" would have simply been dissmissed because I was trying to "make money".
That's funny. There have been times in my career where I felt like someone was trying to bite my head off because they were sure they knew all that there was to know and couldn't understand, and didn't want to listen to the details explaining why something had to be done a certain way. It just so happens alignments that required specific aftermarket corrections to make them right were right up there in the frequency of these events.
and given that the shop had to re-do the job, I would say that the customer was 'brushed off', yes, with a comment that was too bizarre for anyone to just make up.
In many ways it worked out fine in the end, except I had to write what amounts to a full feature article to get it there. People who present themselves as experts today routinely demonstrate only a minimal comprehension of some of the simplest topics. I wrote that Mr. Reeds last essay is "close enough", but only because they didn't concentrate on having to call us rip-offs and theives to try and make some points. (Well there was one reference to such a topic associated to AAA's Neilsen.) I could do an entire article on just how far off they really are with that as well. They quoted a P0135. That code means that the O2 heater circuit has either exceeded 2 amps of current, or is less than .25 amps. That means it cannot be a vacuum hose issue as suggested in the text by AAA's Neilsen. Given the chance that's exactly the kind of gross error I would expect the sellers of CarMd to jump all over, that is if they had a chance to try and cut down some technician and try and sell their "tool".
Some of the other details in the article also have me shaking my head. The suggestion of the sensors lasting 100K miles. Information like that would get a tech tarred and feathered if he/she suggested replacing one by that mileage alone. As far as the fuel mileage claim, well lets just say until I saw the fuel trims and knew what the downstream sensors were reporting both before and after the replacement, I'm going to reserve any judgement. Plus the final comment about the light being out on the way back from the shop doesn't mean anything. When you understand how the monitors and code setting criteria work they easily were still set to discover that the car wasn't fixed yet and a few days later when the conditions were right to finally run all of the tests, that's when maybe the light just might come right back on.
He once referred to a "Firestone Alignment" " Open the hood, bang on the fender, set the toe and let it go"
Yea I've heard that joke. I've taken that as an attempt to simply try and cut them down by someone else who wanted that business anyway they could get it as much as anything.
He also said he sold them a lot of what he called "show shims". There were alignment shims that were so thin that they basically did nothing.
What, the 1/32 and 1/64th shims? Those allowed me to make final adjustments as fine as 1/10th of a degree when it came to trying to nail the specs on someone's car and still split the offset for road crown. I always found it offensive that some might use them to just make it look like they did anything at all. I always tried to nail the caster to the exact spec, and then split the cambers .3 for the road crown. It was common for me to do an alignment a couple years after the first one that I did one and only to have to pull a shim or two to reset the cambers and caster and I'd see the entire alignment come right back into the specs that I wanted.
Having said this, I'm sure there are a lot of Firestone stores that do an excellent job at what they do
I've taught classes for them, and really worked to have the techs understand the diagnostic angles (SAI, and IA) and how and when to use the aftermarket solutions only to have the techs disgusted because they believed (expected) that no one would take the repair suggestions and allow them to do the jobs correctly.
OK I saw the video. What cannot be seen is what the right rear tire is doing while the car is drifting backwards. Unless this has a very tight limited slip differential, a loss of traction could have the right rear tire turning forwards through the differential, while the driveshaft which could still be held by the park mechanism holds the ring and pinion fixed. You must have traction on both of the drive wheels for park to hold with a standard differential. Once the car starts to slide at all and the right rear starts spinning forwards, the loss of traction would allow the car to drift almost effortlessly. That's why you must set the parking brake when you are changing a flat tire, especially on a drive wheel.
To try and "prove" what happened. I'd have to park the car back in his driveway and try to see if I could get it to break traction and slide down his hill when its iced over next winter. I think I'd only do that if I also pre-rigged a good anchor system to arrest the cars slide once it started moving if it does.......
BTW, here again is where the media blew it with the unintended acceleration stuff with Toyota. You must confirm the symptom to accurately diagnose what is happening. You can suspect something, which essentially is asking a question about might be occurring. You then have to get it to happen, without directly causing it to happen falsely and prove that you are on the right track. Simply blaming the park mechanism or the transmission without proof at this point is the easiest way to get it wrong. Right now you could replace the transmission, the transmisison controller etc. etc. only to have the car slide down the hill next year and then it would be a comeback because its still doing "the same thing".
That's my point. It was easy to take what he wrote and without a full understanding of the subject you could easily take what he wrote as the final answer
This is an automotive message forum. I'm sure all of us (I know I have) have written posts that when we go back and re-read it, say "holly cow, did I really mean that".
Second, the English language allows a lot of vagaries and interpretations to occur. It is really not the best mechanism for formally trying to convey ideas.
One of the many things I do in the course of my job is to generate requirements for lower level assemblies (boxes, boards, software, etc) from a higher level system specification. It is amazing how different people can interpret differently the same sentence or paragraph. It's not unusual for an exchange to go something like this: "That's not what I meant" " But that's the way I read it" " OK, here's what I mean. How would you reword it to convey that information?"
This goes back to my comments about oil recommendations in owners manuals. If it's just worded as a recommendation, and not a requirement, than all sorts of interpretations as to what oil is really required can be made.
When I picked the tires for my Mustang GT, I made sure that they were non-directional so that moving them around wasn't going to be an issue. The Potenza's that I chose easily exceed the cars requirements and with as much as we intend on driving the car, should last me ten years or more.
As far as mounting a tire inside out goes, those tires are the exception not the rule and it does take an extra moment of awarness to do a little more than simply do a routine mounting. I can tell you fist hand that an IQ in the mid 160's isn't high enough to not make that mistake at some point if someone is given enough chances. That's life no matter how smart they are, people aren't perfect.
How many times do you think you would make the same mistake that the tire jockey did given enough chances?
A " Lifetime Alignment" may be a good thing for the few people who actually need this done often. For the stores that sell it, it's if nothing else, a great way to get the customer back in the shop. Heck, maybe the lower ball joints have worn a bit since the last alignment?
It's an expensive insurance policy of sorts that in my opinion is of little value to most drivers.
Having said this, I'm sure there are a lot of Firestone stores that do an excellent job at what they do.
Like I said before, if I didn’t have the lifetime alignment and/or the lifetime balancing with tire rotation, they may have had an excuse for not making an adjustment for when the first set of Bridgestone Serenities wore out prematurely. I’d say what I paid for those two lifetime services have paid for themselves already. As you know, I’m skeptical about having shops do work on my cars, but, so far, I like this Firestone store that I deal with. To be honest, I’m very surprised but pleased.
Remember, you’re talking to jmonroe here. I at least found a place that backs their warranty. Not like the shafting I got from Hyundai. :mad:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
As far as mounting a tire inside out goes, those tires are the exception not the rule and it does take an extra moment of awarness to do a little more than simply do a routine mounting. I can tell you fist hand that an IQ in the mid 160's isn't high enough to not make that mistake at some point if someone is given enough chances. That's life no matter how smart they are, people aren't perfect.
I just knew that you'd have an explanation which would excuse that error. Is there any foul-up that you wouldn't defend? I'm not holding my breath...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
How many people could listen to me explain what I wrote there and then reliably repeat the details to a third person?
I could. But then I made drafts that I could refer back to years later if I wanted..of posts 3094, 3107 and 3109. I especially liked the meat in 3094 as quoted here:
"If a vehicle is aligned correctly as far as caster, camber and toe are concerned, that doesn't mean there isn't a problem. SAI (steering axis inclination) is every bit as capable of causing a lead just like camber is. In fact many times an alignment is done and the tech corrects the normal three angles and makes the SAI go even further out of spec. On todays FWD vehicles with a full cradle, the cradle could be pushed to one side or another. SAI is the angle from the top of the strut or upper ball joint, down through the lower ball joint. Picture the cradle being pushed to the passengers side of the car. That would at first cause the camber on the drivers side to go way positive as that ball joint moved inwards towards the centerline of the car, and the passengers side camber go way negative as that ball joint moved out from the centerline of the car. During the alignment the tech adjusts the camber back to spec, but the cradle is still shoved over to the right. The car pulls (leads) to the left in that condition even though "everything is in spec" well everything they are used to seeing that is."
This is good stuff! I know that some of your posts cause a few eyes to glaze over..even on this board. But personally I soak up stuff like this. I usually do a bit of research of my own to rule out BS if I'm not understanding it...but in this example it is pretty much, geometry, physics and Newton's Law at play.
Now don't let my compliment puff your chest too much though, doc..until you officially make a retraction for your ridiculous claims about the loose oil cap, given the details we knew at the time, your credibility will always be questioned more than a little by some here I think. I can't recall you actually ever admitting you were wrong about anything yet. But you might have...maybe I just didn't see it yet or remember it. Just my opinion..
But when you nail something...it's real good stuff.. That said, ya gotta be prepared for some of your more enigmatic info to cause you potential backlash or a calling out. Although I've witnessed how water/ducks/back you can be too... This post will probably fall into that category... :P but L'g OL.. :shades:
Comments
I suppose a wheel weight could fall off somehow but then, I could win the lotto too.
I can't even remember the last time I have had a wheel alignment done on any of my cars. I'm lazy about rotations and my tires have been wearing even.
Maybe I've just been lucky.
One doesn't need any higher than background level of nitrogen in their tires in order to remove moisture. Using the same type of air dryer that auto painters use will accomplish the very same thing.
The only time having Nitrogen filled tires is really handy is if you are in a situation in which your tires are close to an ignition source and you have a reasonable expectation your tires might explode, like you find in a fighter aircraft, or you wish to maximize safety, as one would in a passenger aircraft.
A long time ago I rotated tires on two different cars - right after rotating the tires wore out rapidly. So, I haven't rotated tires for over 20 years - except on one car that had snow tires. They were putting them on any way.
Haven't had a problem since I stopped. If the rear tires or the fronts wore out faster it wasn't a big deal, rather replace tires in two's anyway...besides, they last longer for me.
With AWD all 4 tires will probably have to be changed at once. But, I still won't rotate the tires, probably comes out to less to replace all 4 when one gets bad enough. It is costly rotating tires...not just money but time. And, I may be better off and I may not be, so I'll just have to chance it.
Just an opinion, but I don't think I would get an alignment done unless I actually noticed something wrong...odd wearing tire, pulling to side, steering wheel off centre :sick:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
You have a good memory...I am surprised I tackled this job too. Even more surprising, I actually fixed it - even though I didn't have the ideal tool.
NIce to see you again, even if it is over on the dark side. Don't forget to visit Sales frontlines again soon - your buddies there will miss you.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Doc told me that.
So you have heard part of the information, and then assigned your own perspective to it. The weight of the engine does have in impact on the front end geometry. Over time that weight causes the frame rails twist inwards at the top on a rear wheel drive where the upper control arm would be connected, and on front wheel drive the top of the strut towers push inwards simply because of the force of gravity. That's why as the car gets older, the camber naturally goes negative as the car ages, so when you re-align the car, you have to make adjustments that move the camber back out positive to the specs. (Negative camber has the top of the wheel leaning inwards, no camber at all has the wheel standing straight up and down, and positive camber has the top of the wheel leaning outwards).
Now if nothing else happens to bend something, as the camber angle changes, the toe angle changes too. Dynamically you have to envision the bottom ball joint not moving, the top ball joint moving inwards, and the tie rod holding which ever side of the knuckle that it is connected to rigid. If the tie rod is in the front of the knuckle, the toe goes outwards, and if it is in the rear of the knuckle, the toe goes inwards.
Regarding alignment of worn tires--if you have, say, excessive wear from toe-in or toe-out way out of spec, that *might* screw up alignment because we don't have equal tire depth side to side.
Would you like to try and rephrase that? We don't align the tires, we align the wheels. While tire height can have some impact I show the students a little trick. We measure out a front end, and then while watching the reading live, start letting air out of one on the front tires. It takes a significant difference in air pressure to actually make a measurable difference in the alignment measurements.
Probably the biggest issue with aligning worn tires is verifying the alignment. The machine can insist that alignment is dead-on to specification, but the car would still pull on a road test. So then what to you do? Mis-align the car so that it tracks straight?
That depends on what you mean by misalign. You can use cross camber and cross caster variation to correct for road crown. But on a level road (of which there really are very few) that cross angle could result in a lead towards center. Tire leads, where a tire rolls more like a styrofoam cup and pushes or pulls a car off line can sometimes be negated simply by rotating it off of the front axle, or by pairing it with one that has the opposite lead. Needless to say, tire leads are a PITA, and sometimes the best course of action is to simply discard the tire.
If a vehicle is aligned correctly as far as caster, camber and toe are concerned, that doesn't mean there isn't a problem. SAI (steering axis inclination) is every bit as capable of causing a lead just like camber is. In fact many times an alignment is done and the tech corrects the normal three angles and makes the SAI go even further out of spec. On todays FWD vehicles with a full cradle, the cradle could be pushed to one side or another. SAI is the angle from the top of the strut or upper ball joint, down through the lower ball joint. Picture the cradle being pushed to the passengers side of the car. That would at first cause the camber on the drivers side to go way positive as that ball joint moved inwards towards the centerline of the car, and the passengers side camber go way negative as that ball joint moved out from the centerline of the car. During the alignment the tech adjusts the camber back to spec, but the cradle is still shoved over to the right. The car pulls (leads) to the left in that condition even though "everything is in spec" well everything they are used to seeing that is.
In the everyday automotive world nitrogen inflation goes beyond what really needs to be done. However in other applications, there is some merit. Here is what tire rack has to say about it.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=191&s_kwcid=TC|21263|- _cat:tirerack.com||S|b|6698650813
FWIW, I fill every tire with at least 78% pure nitrogen. :P
Did get an alignment for $69 as inside of tires showing abnormal wear.
That's why I don't own an alignment machine. I can't justify spending $50,000 on a machine and rack for $70 a pop. The problem is, most people only get what we call a toe and go with the other angles being ignored. If you look alignments up in the flat rate manual you will see them listed between 1.5 and 2.4 hours for a two wheel and a four wheel fully adjustable car. Since the chain stores menu the pricing, and don't pay the techs correctly to spend the time, they usually learn to adjust the toe because its the major tire wearing angle, and just be close with the camber and caster. You get what you pay for applies when it comes to alignments. It's just most people don't realize the price is too cheap to be right.
Edited: Never heard of this... a 90 day guarantee on alignment? A one year guarantee would have been like 20 bucks more.
Yea and a lifetime one is probably $140 or so. If you have a really good tech, he/she will take the time to really do the alignment correctly for that. One of the neat things is once done correctly the angles change very little over time. However the car will settle as described in a previous response, but pushing the camber back out will normally also bring the toe angle right back into spec. The problem is the techs get paid what the customer is paying, so they in a sense make out on the first alignment, but lose on any subsequent checks and adjustments. In the end its a bad scheme for the techs and the customers alike because it promotes rushing and sloppyness on the rechecks and doesn't reward precision workmanship.
The dealers call it "flat rate" and yes a tech makes less for a given repair that is done under warranty, then they would if the same job was customer pay. In other words, flat rate isn't flat.
Also, isn't there something about manufacturers not making information available to independent garages so they can get all the repair business?
Myth. You can go to the R2R thread here (right to repair) http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f117d5f?displayRecent and see some of the dialog. The simple facts come down to shops constantly trying to cut each others throats on prices and so they in turn have to make cuts in business expenses. Those cuts show up routinely in the tools and schools, and that lead to shops and techs thinking that they didn't have everything they needed because of the manufacturers holding them back. To some degree back in the early 2000nds there was some discrepancies but it actually came as a surprise to the O.E's. In some cases they simply never thought about what we needed for their cars, they just figured we would find a way just like we always have.
I have a "Zukerburg" idea if you are interested. You see we have this app or something - and people go to a garage to have their car fixed, and you can hear what is going on. And, then you can advise the civilian on whether he is being ripped off. Seriously, us ordinary civilians need someone like you to explain these things to us when we go to a garage
We have companies like RepairPal that think they can do that now. There are many great ideas that just don't work, and that's one of them. When you follow that link the first thing you will notice is their Top Shop program. I could spend hours explaining how it would really fit into a community and while I have everything going for me that makes my shop qualify, the cost for me is prohibitive. Plus no shop around me has made the investment in the tools and software like I have, so they undercut me on certain prices, and simply turn away the more complicated work. That works to make some of my prices appear to be out of the ordinary and by the repair pal program which shops prices by a local economy tries to play that as gouging. Keep in mind you have seen some of the comparisons for pricing, Shity quotes labors that are double what I charge, so I'm not expensive by any ones measure. But I'm not as cheap as some of my competitors.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
First, no doubt about one thing. If the car won't stay put then the parking brake and curbing the wheels when its parked is what any driver is supposed to learn how to do.
I might have glanced at that too quickly, were the video's posted? How steep is his driveway? A park pawl can only hold just so much force and then the vehicle can roll. With all of the different designs of park systems that I can think of, and not knowing exactly how this Audi is designed it would be inappropriate to even venture a guess. If there is a problem, this won't be the only one that ever does this. It wouldn't surprise me if there is a maximum angle that the manufacturer warrants the system to hold without the parking brake, and then one with the parking brake.
Did the owner ever read his manual and see what it says about parking his car on an incline?
All cars have engines, and all engines weight a lot, therefore all cars have irregular tire wear?
Don't think so.
If you've seen severe tire wear due to say 'scrubbing', there is plenty of differential to affect alignment specs. If this were not true, then all alignments on badly worn tires would be successful, but they are not.
Personally, I find I always lose on those plans. Either another garage will sell the same tires for less than the $100 discount or they will just take the $100 off full MSRP. Or, I'll trade the car before I ever collect. I think, and it is a bit of a gamble, I will still come out ahead by just taking my chances and not bothering to rotate tires, but, I'll probably only keep the car for 4 years, or 60K miles max. So, I may need a new set of tires at some point, but I would even if rotating worked. I think I will be ahead of the game if I don't rotate tires.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Is the oil filler cap on tight or did it bounce off because of a bump?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Thank you, I give you lots of credit, you answered 2 of my questions in great detail and explained your answer completely, and in language even I can understand.
Much appreciated.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
There is a surveilance video of the car rolling away.
The complete story is at:
BMW rolls away twice
Dealer says the parking brake should be used, like you said. The car is on ice so they say it could have slid on the snow.
He can't curb it because it is in a driveway that looks like it is in a rural place and it is covered with snow.
You may find some good info in the article, especially if you are in an area that gets snow.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
That's not what was said. The weight of the engine over time causes the frame rails to twist inwards, as well as the strut towers on machphereson type front suspensions to pull inwards, both of which cause the camber on the cars to go negative, and that results in a toe angle change. I guess you never learned how to do alignments.
http://www.hunter.com/training/
http://www.hunter.com/videos/index.cfm?cat=2
All cars have engines, and all engines weight a lot, therefore all cars have irregular tire wear?
You're mixing apples and oranges. Learn a little about the subject, then we can go further.
BTW, I don't have an alignment machine in my shop because I specailize in electronics and cannot justify the expense of owning one for the return that it would generate. But I love doing alignments and have aligned thousands of cars in my career. Today I teach four different levels of classes on the subject. I'm pretty sure that I know what can and cannot be done. I even teach the techs how to detect a problem with the Ackerman angle during a caster swing.
Start by scrolling towards the bottom of the Hunter video page. You will find the basic alignment videos, and especially the ones that discuss what causes an alignment to change.
By Sheila Brennan
The increased technology density found in vehicles today (more ECU's, high voltage charging systems, electric powertrain, in-vehicle Infotainment (IVI), etc.) can negatively impact service efficacy, and will likely continue to impact service of vehicles going forward. This was the topic of my presentation at SAE World Congress 2013 last week in Detroit. For each data slide I presented, I invited our panel of subject matter experts to comment on the challenge, and what needs to be done to overcome these difficulties.
Our panelists included the best and brightest that lead service initiatives from Ford Motor Company, General Motors, Toyota Motor Sales, The National Institute for Automotive Service Excellence (ASE), and Madison Area Technical College. These experts, many of them also members of the Society of Automotive Engineers'(SAE) Service Technology Program Committee (STPC), have not only been involved in discussions of this study data before, but also helped design and field the study. Incidentally, IDC Manufacturing Insights has already published three dedicated research pieces from this data-rich study with over 2000 global participants: The Impact of Vehicle Electrification on Service Technician Safety, Service Information Criticality in Combating Increasing Vehicle Service Complexity, and Service Readiness as a Key Business Practice.
However, interestingly, a piece of research that had an overwhelming response at the conference is one that I have not previously written about: the frequency with which technicians perform uncompensated research for a service event.
Our data shows that over 60% of service technicians from both dealerships and independent repair facilities must frequently search for and research information in order to perform certain services, and are not compensated for this research (See Figure below.) In other words, the flat rate pay system prevalent in the automotive industry does not reward technicians for performing research to execute service correctly. One panelist commented that actually quite the opposite is true; flat rate pay discourages use of diagnostics. Another panelist indicated that from his experience, only 0.3 hours of flat rate time for any diagnostics is paid for, yet many diagnostic routines take significantly longer.
Given the increasing complexity of vehicles, proliferating model configurations and reductions in the frequency of 'pattern failures', this trend can be expected to accelerate. Furthermore, because warranty coverage typically pays for actual 'repairs', technicians have greater incentive to replace parts and less incentive to spend time diagnosing root problem cause. This perverse incentive drives up warranty costs and no-trouble-found rates.
FREQUENCY OF UNCOMPENSATED RESEARCH BY TECHNICIANS
Source: IDC Manufacturing Insights, Impact of Vehicle Electrification Study, 2013
n=1644
The panelists established that, at least in part, this fundamental compensation issue detracts from the industry's ability to attract the best and the brightest technicians. Additionally, since swift, accurate and cost effective repairs are such a critical customer-facing issue, and can potentially impact brand loyalty, automakers, dealership franchisees and independent repair shops alike must look more carefully at solutions to these issues. The panelists agreed that the industry as a whole requires a paradigm shift from its 20th century business model into the 21st century. This new paradigm includes supporting the upfront investment in technician training, tools and service information to perform better diagnostics, building these added costs into pricing structures, and fixing the broken flat rate pay system. These moves toward approaching 21st century cars with a 21st century business model will ultimately have a positive downstream effect on warranty costs and customer satisfaction.
I look forward to your comments on these issues! Please also contact me directly (sbrennan@idc.com) for a complementary copy of my complete SAE World Congress presentation.
Many of the lessons learned on cars years ago that if they are still around are now collectors items still hold true. Cars like the Buick Electra, and Oldsmobile Regency that had the option for a much heavier engine than the standard one showed greatly accelerated frame twist with that option in place. The factory adjustments would quickly run out of travel, and the aftermarket solution was an offset upper control arm shaft and bushings that allowed for an additional 1 degree of camber correction. The cars with the lighter engines still aged and twisted, but the rate of change was much slower. Shifty's comment of "That is just what I call "pseudo-science", which is rampant in the alternative health industry, for instance. You take a basically logical principle, like "engines weigh a lot" and then apply them in an illogical way---"heavy engines wear tires abnormally". probably looks great to someone without training and experience but it leads to misunderstanding the job.
If you look carefully you can see the offset manufactured into this component.
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=202870&cc=1017076
When those cars were new, the four shim packs used to make the caster and camber adjustments would be some 1/2" thick on average. Overtime, shims would be taken out, which would move the upper control arms outward and restore the camber and caster angles. Once there were no shims left, offset shafts where then required and they added another 1/4" (one degree) of travel. By that time, that means that the frame rails had twisted as much as 3/4" each for a total of 1 1/2 inches towards the centerline of the car. In severe cases of fatigue the car could be put on a frame machine and the engine bay re-arched. It's a pretty dramatic picture when you envision the frame rails rolling that far. People who preached the information that Shifty has repeated have literally tried to criminalize understanding how and why a vehicles geometry changes and needs restored at some point in a vehicles lifetime. Of course that seems to happen with a lot of things that techs have to do when to comes to fixing cars. In any other career studying to improve your skills merits rewards. Working harder to get better results should garner more respect. Searching out a solution that corrects an alignment angle such as a part like this one http://www.jegs.com/p/Specialty-Products/SPC-Jeep-Dodge-Offset-Ball-Joints/75517- 0/10002/-1 should be appreciated. But no, try and sell that to someone so that you can really fix a problem with their car and it gets twisted into being a scam by people who really don't know what they are talking about. The argument basically comes down to "What do you mean it's going to be $XXX to align my car, you said it's only supposed to be $69. You're trying to rip me off"
After a few conflicts like that for trying to do the job right, who can blame a tech for simply setting the toe and moving onto the next car even if it is wrong.
It's called the BIG hammer.
Funny thing about "research" - lots of professional types, including doctors and lawyers, wind up doing lots of research that they can't bill for. Or they could bill, but their clients couldn't afford to pay for all of it. "Consultants" wind up doing a lot of that too.
Come to think of it, lots of docs and lawyers and CPAs, etc. do "flat rate" jobs, and if they have to do some extra research on a case, that's just part of the deal.
Yeh, that's what I was thinking too. Most jobs these days require putting in extra time that workers are not compensated for.
Retail industry makes employees managers or asstd managers so they have to work all kinds of hours without extra pay.
Real estate salespeople or car salesman, do their work and often end up with nothing.
TV and radio people attend functions around the city...it is part of the job.
Teachers take extra courses at night or during the summer.
We all do it....and that mechanic rate chart probably has some time built in to do research for a repair....most repairs seem to take less time than the billing chart shows.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I did call the Big O service advisor back and thank him for taking the extra time and effort in getting my car right. I also asked him to thank the tech for me for a job well done. The service advisor thanked me for taking the time to call, ask that I join Facebook and give Big O props. He also said getting tires with wear patterns properly balanced was difficult.
I dont mind "a" upsell, but multiple upsells without even looking at the car is a bit much.
And if it makes you feel any better.... both shifty AND you are my hero.
What kind of money do they make a year?
Money! I thought you did what you do because you love doing it!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Like I said in post 3087, the regular price for a lifetime alignment at the Firestone store I go to charges $140 but they had a special going in April 2010 for $110 so I jumped at that offer. I agree that unless you hit a lot of pot holes, the alignment should NOT change once it is set correctly. Heck, for that matter, if it’s set incorrectly it will maintain that incorrect setting until someone sets it correctly. What I like about the Firestone store I go to is that they give me a print out that shows the as-found and as-left condition of the alignment that was done. A couple times they didn’t have to make any adjustments. One time the tech said one of the adjustments (I think it was camber) was within specs on one side but to “give me my money’s worth” he set it to the more perfect setting because the other side was at the more perfect setting when he took his initial readings.
As I said before, because I have babied the tires and alignment on the Genny, the Firestone store manager had no problem giving me an “early adjustment” at around 31K miles because the tires were not going to give me the 40K mileage that Firestone said their Bridgestone Serenity tread wear warranty would give me on those tires.
As for not wanting to invest $50K on an alignment gizmo, I don’t blame you for that. Until you sell many/many tires like a tire store I can’t imagine an indy shop having one of those. I have only seen one alignment machine at an indy shop and that was because an indy tire store was in that building before the indy mechanic moved in. I know a lot of dealers around me, except for the mega guy, don’t even have one. They farm out alignments to tire stores.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
As the old saying goes for diagnosticians "When you are in Texas and you hear hoofbeats, yell HORSES (or CATTLE) not ZEBRAS!"
Of all the possible causes of irregular tire wear on a person's car, a "heavy engine" would come up on my list of possibilities about 101 out of 100. :P
I wasn't trying to "criminalize" anyone---I was just calling a foul on the BS meter.
The discussion at Big O wasn't about the esoteria of the effect of engine weight on suspension over time---the discussion was " your heavy engine caused your tires to wear funny". In other words, nothing WE did.
Doc, saying that to a customer is like saying "The reason you woke up this morning 1 inch shorter was because your head is too heavy".
Well, my G37 has asymmetric tire sizes front to back, and the tires are directional. So no way to rotate them, unless have the tires flipped on the rims and the swapped side to side.
Anything happens, I just replace the filler cap :P .
If that's what YOU meant, then why didn't you say that instead of leaving it open for interpretation? This is one of the problems that the trade has always faced. Someone takes half a statement, and makes a proclamation from it, and then a lay person receives an incorrect perception.
Of all the possible causes of irregular tire wear on a person's car, a "heavy engine" would come up on my list of possibilities about 101 out of 100.
I wasn't trying to "criminalize" anyone---I was just calling a foul on the BS meter.
So you took second hand information, from someone who doesn't know the details that are at play, and raised the BS flag. Can you see the problem yet?
How many people could listen to me explain what I wrote there and then reliably repeat the details to a third person?
The discussion at Big O wasn't about the esoteria of the effect of engine weight on suspension over time---the discussion was " your heavy engine caused your tires to wear funny". In other words, nothing WE did
I wasn't privy to that discussion, if I was I would know for certain what was said, and who said it. If the service writer there isn't a technician then he/she could easily screw up the informational details. Even so, we still had another persons description in between before you even got the story.
If he/she was trying to explain how the alignment changes I just showed you that in context the weight of the engine does come into play, which is in complete contradiction to what you wrote. Should I have just ignored how incorrect what you wrote was? In my book if they really said what you say they did then both of you are just as wrong. You see no excuses, just a picture of what probably occurred there and did occur here. The difference for the other readers is that the incorrect picture painted here as well wasn't allowed to stand like it would have in the past.
FWIW, I interpreted Shifty's weight comment just the way he explained it - as simply dead weight on the wheels - and not any other effects such as the frame twisting you discussed.
With all due respect, probably not. Eyewitness (and earwitness) testimonies are notoriously unreliable.
I wasn't sending anyone to be beheaded, so the standards of evidence don't really have to be so rigid that I have to interrogate one of our members---- and given that the shop had to re-do the job, I would say that the customer was 'brushed off', yes, with a comment that was too bizarre for anyone to just make up. How could he mis-hear "engine weight"? Engine Fate? Engine Mate?
As for "misinterpretation", okay! point taken, but remember, we are in an electronic environment with lots of fingers typing away, and no face to face, so when it doubt, it's always good to ask what the person means to say if it is ambiguous to you.
Doc, I know you don't visit Answers, but I am constantly asking people to re-phrase their question because of ambiguity.
So anecdotal data is always suspect but some data is a lot less suspect than others.
For instance, if your wife comes back and says the mechanic said it was the "timing"---that's ambigious---engine timing, ignition timing, what?
But if she comes back and says that the muffler bearings are bad, that's not so ambigious as to what's going on.
He once referred to a "Firestone Alignment"
" Open the hood, bang on the fender, set the toe and let it go"
He also said he sold them a lot of what he called "show shims". There were alignment shims that were so thin that they basically did nothing. They were, however, bright and shiny so afterwards, when the customer opened his hood it would look like something had been done.
A " Lifetime Alignment" may be a good thing for the few people who actually need this done often. For the stores that sell it, it's if nothing else, a great way to get the customer back in the shop. Heck, maybe the lower ball joints have worn a bit since the last alignment?
It's an expensive insurance policy of sorts that in my opinion is of little value to most drivers.
Having said this, I'm sure there are a lot of Firestone stores that do an excellent job at what they do.
Want to bet? I used a tire shop-only once-where I had to tell the guy mounting the Pirelli P77s that the big block letters spelling "OUTSIDE" on one sidewall of each tire were put there for a reason. And yes, the shop was a Pirelli dealer... :sick:
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
That's my point. It was easy to take what he wrote and without a full understanding of the subject you could easily take what he wrote as the final answer. I could have easily just said "yes it does" instead of putting some time into the answer that I did here. But experience in the trade has taught me that if I had done that "my opinion" would have simply been dissmissed because I was trying to "make money".
That is true. If I wasn't a pro, I'd be in the garage every weekend anyway.
That's funny. There have been times in my career where I felt like someone was trying to bite my head off because they were sure they knew all that there was to know and couldn't understand, and didn't want to listen to the details explaining why something had to be done a certain way. It just so happens alignments that required specific aftermarket corrections to make them right were right up there in the frequency of these events.
and given that the shop had to re-do the job, I would say that the customer was 'brushed off', yes, with a comment that was too bizarre for anyone to just make up.
In many ways it worked out fine in the end, except I had to write what amounts to a full feature article to get it there. People who present themselves as experts today routinely demonstrate only a minimal comprehension of some of the simplest topics. I wrote that Mr. Reeds last essay is "close enough", but only because they didn't concentrate on having to call us rip-offs and theives to try and make some points. (Well there was one reference to such a topic associated to AAA's Neilsen.) I could do an entire article on just how far off they really are with that as well. They quoted a P0135. That code means that the O2 heater circuit has either exceeded 2 amps of current, or is less than .25 amps. That means it cannot be a vacuum hose issue as suggested in the text by AAA's Neilsen. Given the chance that's exactly the kind of gross error I would expect the sellers of CarMd to jump all over, that is if they had a chance to try and cut down some technician and try and sell their "tool".
Some of the other details in the article also have me shaking my head. The suggestion of the sensors lasting 100K miles. Information like that would get a tech tarred and feathered if he/she suggested replacing one by that mileage alone. As far as the fuel mileage claim, well lets just say until I saw the fuel trims and knew what the downstream sensors were reporting both before and after the replacement, I'm going to reserve any judgement. Plus the final comment about the light being out on the way back from the shop doesn't mean anything. When you understand how the monitors and code setting criteria work they easily were still set to discover that the car wasn't fixed yet and a few days later when the conditions were right to finally run all of the tests, that's when maybe the light just might come right back on.
" Open the hood, bang on the fender, set the toe and let it go"
Yea I've heard that joke. I've taken that as an attempt to simply try and cut them down by someone else who wanted that business anyway they could get it as much as anything.
He also said he sold them a lot of what he called "show shims". There were alignment shims that were so thin that they basically did nothing.
What, the 1/32 and 1/64th shims? Those allowed me to make final adjustments as fine as 1/10th of a degree when it came to trying to nail the specs on someone's car and still split the offset for road crown. I always found it offensive that some might use them to just make it look like they did anything at all. I always tried to nail the caster to the exact spec, and then split the cambers .3 for the road crown. It was common for me to do an alignment a couple years after the first one that I did one and only to have to pull a shim or two to reset the cambers and caster and I'd see the entire alignment come right back into the specs that I wanted.
Having said this, I'm sure there are a lot of Firestone stores that do an excellent job at what they do
I've taught classes for them, and really worked to have the techs understand the diagnostic angles (SAI, and IA) and how and when to use the aftermarket solutions only to have the techs disgusted because they believed (expected) that no one would take the repair suggestions and allow them to do the jobs correctly.
To try and "prove" what happened. I'd have to park the car back in his driveway and try to see if I could get it to break traction and slide down his hill when its iced over next winter. I think I'd only do that if I also pre-rigged a good anchor system to arrest the cars slide once it started moving if it does.......
BTW, here again is where the media blew it with the unintended acceleration stuff with Toyota. You must confirm the symptom to accurately diagnose what is happening. You can suspect something, which essentially is asking a question about might be occurring. You then have to get it to happen, without directly causing it to happen falsely and prove that you are on the right track. Simply blaming the park mechanism or the transmission without proof at this point is the easiest way to get it wrong. Right now you could replace the transmission, the transmisison controller etc. etc. only to have the car slide down the hill next year and then it would be a comeback because its still doing "the same thing".
This is an automotive message forum. I'm sure all of us (I know I have) have written posts that when we go back and re-read it, say "holly cow, did I really mean that".
Second, the English language allows a lot of vagaries and interpretations to occur. It is really not the best mechanism for formally trying to convey ideas.
One of the many things I do in the course of my job is to generate requirements for lower level assemblies (boxes, boards, software, etc) from a higher level system specification. It is amazing how different people can interpret differently the same sentence or paragraph. It's not unusual for an exchange to go something like this:
"That's not what I meant"
" But that's the way I read it"
" OK, here's what I mean. How would you reword it to convey that information?"
This goes back to my comments about oil recommendations in owners manuals. If it's just worded as a recommendation, and not a requirement, than all sorts of interpretations as to what oil is really required can be made.
As far as mounting a tire inside out goes, those tires are the exception not the rule and it does take an extra moment of awarness to do a little more than simply do a routine mounting. I can tell you fist hand that an IQ in the mid 160's isn't high enough to not make that mistake at some point if someone is given enough chances. That's life no matter how smart they are, people aren't perfect.
How many times do you think you would make the same mistake that the tire jockey did given enough chances?
It's an expensive insurance policy of sorts that in my opinion is of little value to most drivers.
Having said this, I'm sure there are a lot of Firestone stores that do an excellent job at what they do.
Like I said before, if I didn’t have the lifetime alignment and/or the lifetime balancing with tire rotation, they may have had an excuse for not making an adjustment for when the first set of Bridgestone Serenities wore out prematurely. I’d say what I paid for those two lifetime services have paid for themselves already. As you know, I’m skeptical about having shops do work on my cars, but, so far, I like this Firestone store that I deal with. To be honest, I’m very surprised but pleased.
Remember, you’re talking to jmonroe here. I at least found a place that backs their warranty. Not like the shafting I got from Hyundai. :mad:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I just knew that you'd have an explanation which would excuse that error. Is there any foul-up that you wouldn't defend?
I'm not holding my breath...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
One of yours....
BTW, what I wrote isn't an excuse. Foul-ups happen. I just put people before money or a POS car.
I could. But then I made drafts that I could refer back to years later if I wanted..of posts 3094, 3107 and 3109. I especially liked the meat in 3094 as quoted here:
"If a vehicle is aligned correctly as far as caster, camber and toe are concerned, that doesn't mean there isn't a problem. SAI (steering axis inclination) is every bit as capable of causing a lead just like camber is. In fact many times an alignment is done and the tech corrects the normal three angles and makes the SAI go even further out of spec. On todays FWD vehicles with a full cradle, the cradle could be pushed to one side or another. SAI is the angle from the top of the strut or upper ball joint, down through the lower ball joint. Picture the cradle being pushed to the passengers side of the car. That would at first cause the camber on the drivers side to go way positive as that ball joint moved inwards towards the centerline of the car, and the passengers side camber go way negative as that ball joint moved out from the centerline of the car. During the alignment the tech adjusts the camber back to spec, but the cradle is still shoved over to the right. The car pulls (leads) to the left in that condition even though "everything is in spec" well everything they are used to seeing that is."
This is good stuff! I know that some of your posts cause a few eyes to glaze over..even on this board. But personally I soak up stuff like this. I usually do a bit of research of my own to rule out BS if I'm not understanding it...but in this example it is pretty much, geometry, physics and Newton's Law at play.
Now don't let my compliment puff your chest too much though, doc..until you officially make a retraction for your ridiculous claims about the loose oil cap, given the details we knew at the time, your credibility will always be questioned more than a little by some here I think. I can't recall you actually ever admitting you were wrong about anything yet. But you might have...maybe I just didn't see it yet or remember it. Just my opinion..
But when you nail something...it's real good stuff..
That said, ya gotta be prepared for some of your more enigmatic info to cause you potential backlash or a calling out. Although I've witnessed how water/ducks/back you can be too...
This post will probably fall into that category... :P but L'g OL.. :shades: