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Comments
And let’s not forget the smug know-it-all feeling we get when we KNEW that would “fix” it.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
The only true way to know for sure is to try it.
Are you willing to go that far? :confuse:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Fixed it for ya.
First prep the car;
The car doors must be open.
The AC on Max (recirculate)
The Blower speed on high
Full cold setting.
In sunlight if possible.
You can run the engine at idle or if you want to slightly higher (1500-1700 rpm) to ensure that the system is working as hard as it can.
Make sure the cooling fans are on high speed, and/or put a box fan in front of the car.
After waiting two, or three minutes like this for the system to stabilize
Measure the condenser inlet temperature, and the condenser outlet temperature. Make sure the measurement is taken as close to the condenser as you can on a non painted surface. If everything is painted, you will need to scrape a spot off to measure the temperature correctly.
The outlet should be 20-50f colder than the inlet. The system will really be working at peak when the temperature difference is in the 35-40f range.
You probably have an expansion valve. Measure the inlet of the evaporator core after the expansion valve if possible, and compare that to the outlet temperature of the evaporator. It should be 4-7f warmer on the outlet than the temperature is at the inlet. That increase shows that all of the refrigerant changed from a liquid to a vapor. The 4-7f temperature increase is known as the superheat rating of the expansion valve. If the temperature is higher than the 4-7f then there isn't enough refrigerant getting through the expansion valve. That could be a restricted valve, it also could be an insufficient refrigerant charge. To check the valve for a restriction, shut the engine down and watch how long it takes for the high side and low side pressures to equalize. 30 seconds or less is great. After 60 seconds try turning the key back on so that the blower runs to try and add heat to the system and make the valve open fully. After two minutes if the two sides aren't within 10PSI you need a new expansion valve.
You can use the temperature testing to check for restricted components such as the receiver drier and of course any hose mufflers and the condenser itself. The condenser outlet temperature should be no less than 20f higher than ambient temperature. If its at ambient or colder then you have a restriction in the condenser. Any other components that you check (mufflers or the drier)should not have a temperature change of more than 1f.
At this point if your checks are within the ranges, try making sure that the blend door is closing fully and not allowing any air through the heater core.
Does this use a hot water control valve for the core? If so has it been confirmed to be closing?
I'll print out your instructions, thanks again.
My first thought here is what you are calling corrosion was actually the lithium based grease that GM uses as for corrosion prevention had dried out. I'd have to see what you were referring to know for certain.
I wiped off the heavy stuff and after a couple times of inserting/pulling the relay out, and wala, problem “fixed
OK if you say so. The normal result however is that if we simply try and do what you said is that the problem typically re-occurs in a few months or less and then you all get to call us all of those names again. (morons, idiots, incompetents, etc) Plus now we get to fix it for free because its a come-back.
Pulling and re-installing relays without first volt drop testing and pinpointing the connection as the confirmed cause usually just results in the problem going into hiding for a while.
Hey ‘doc’, I’m not saying you’d do this but even you have to agree that happens.
Maybe when you have more exposure to underhood fuse block connections that also corrode and give a tech a false fix when he/she tries simply unplugging and plugging a relay, or the relay itself simply starts working again for a while because the broken solder joint inside it temporarily makes a connection again when it was disturbed etc. etc. then maybe you just might start to understand why techs can't do what you did and get a result that the customer can rely on.
Here's one you'll have to agree happens. If a tech were to replace the relay, by your point of view he/she is wrong. Meanwhile if they only try and clean it and it subsequently fails to be a complete permanent repair they are also wrong. So they get to be wrong no matter what they try to do, unless they get lucky. Nice......
BTW your oil filter cap, I really expected that you had that fluted one that is the same one for the Wix 1348 filter, (about 16 flats) and I have to laugh that it has a 27mm hex. I had several of that size socket in my tool-box that all came as parts of various sets for more than a decade before I finally found something that one of them fit. BTW I'm pretty sure that the GM Ecotec oil filter cap hex is also 27mm, but they tucked the cap partially under the intake manifold and that caused it to require its own special low profile, tapered socket.
GM's with the dual controls can have a similar reported issue where the passengers side is colder than the drivers side. It ends up the system is usually just undercharged because the airflow for the passengers side comes from the bottom half of the evaporator and the airflow for the drivers side comes from the top half. The evaporator simply runs out of liquid refrigerant before the refrigerant passes through to the upper half of the core. the temperature testing makes that a simple diagnosis, the outlet will be 10-15f warmer than the inlet when with a CCOT system they really should be equal to +/- 5f of each other. If the temp testing passes, (or if the outlet is colder than the inlet) then the tech must concentrate on the airflow and blend doors in the plenum.
Dang do you know what I just did? I explained why there is a lot more to automotive AC service than just dumping a can of refrigerant into a system. Oh well, I still haven't explained why sealants and excess oil are big time problems. Maybe some other time.....
There's a simple way to avoid your dilemma- and it's what my indie shop would do. They would clean the relay pins and socket and tell the customer, "I cleaned the connection and everything is working properly. I don't want to install a new relay if it isn't necessary. However, if the problem reoccurs it means that the problem is the relay and I'll need to install a new one."
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
If Only.......
I've gotten to fix more things for free because of trying to be that person than I care to ever try to remember. Heck not only do we usually not get to sell the new relay, regardless of what we said or wrote down. The claims typically go from "You don't know what you are doing" all the way to "You did that on purpose just to try and make more money off of me. What's worse is now we not only get to fix it for free and in some cases the people insist on all of their original money back.
I've gotten to fix more things for free because of trying to be that person than I care to ever try to remember. Heck not only do we usually not get to sell the new relay, regardless of what we said or wrote down. The claims typically go from "You don't know what you are doing" all the way to "You did that on purpose just to try and make more money off of me. What's worse is now we not only get to fix it for free and in some cases the people insist on all of their original money back.
If I had a job that made me so pessimistic and miserable I would have to find another line of work. Really.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Possible the TPS or throttle body could be defective?
Just got off phone with Kia. Only $60 to install the part. The part itself was either $210 or $746 depending on the cars vin number... parts guy didn't know why the difference. Luckily mine was the $210 sensor.
So I'm looking at $270 without diagnostics if I want to gamble. $370 to play it safe($100 diagnostic fee). Doc? Shifty? Anybody?
Also, despite the mild annoyance of the floaty boat ride feeling, the car drives well. I could do nothing. Though I would guess the frequent mild surges is hurting my mpg.
Personally, as a car owner, I like to buy a new car every 3 or 4 years and then trade it in when the warranty is up. Saves me worrying about this kind of thing.
(OK RR, I came over to the dark side just for one brief post)
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
That said, I automatically assume I'm going to get decent service from the dealer whenever I buy a new car. I figure it behooves them to do the right thing by me since I'm a relatively frequent car buyer. Now, there are some dealer service depts I stay away from because they will try to cut corners and go out of their way to charge for warranty covered repairs. Not surprisingly, these are the same dealerships who are pretty sleazy in the sales dept, too.
That's a long answer to a short question. I hope for good service from my dealer. Sometimes I'm disappointed. I don't go to those service depts that disappoint me.
BTW...as yoyu also know, there's only one Mini dealer in my 'burg. So, the choices for service are limited.
Then when I finally do wear something out and get a shiny new whatever, I wonder why I didn't do it years earlier.
Not necessarily, you may do it because you can do it or because you like to do it...keep an older car running that is.
I have "0" that is "zero" mechanical ability, and I don't have the patience to wait around while my old car is being diagnosed and repaired, and then I am not that lucky at gambling....meaning on whether I can find an honest and competent mechanic. With my luck if I had an older car the transmission would fall out in some small town where I would have to stay until a new one could be shipped in.
Cost of driving a new dependable warranty covered car is worth the extra few $1000 a year it costs for me to drive it is the way I see it.
The APA (automotive protection agency) in Canada visits garages undercover - THE~ RESULTS ARE AMAZING watch Part 1; Only one of 11 shops found or fixed fixed the problem honestly in Toronto (15 minutes)
Part 1 - undercover probe of auto shops
Part 2 in Calgary Alberta (6 minutes) In this visit 8 out of 30 garages passed.
Part 2 - undercover probe of auto repair shops
These undercover operations really scare me away from garages (not saying all garages are dishonest, just the odds are against me).
btw...Just a guess but I think Canada and USA probes would be about the same.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The only correct answer for their test would be "We couldn't find anything wrong with your car other than one of the battery cables was loose". Since it didn't act up for us we don't know if that was the source of your no-start or not". That litterally means the vehicle owner now gets to take their car home and they have no reason to expect that they can rely on it because you can't prove a negative.
In the end these stories are little more than just that, stories where someone decided they wanted to tell a particular story and so they set out to collect facts to support what they want to say.
Wow...the garage charges over $2200 for needless repairs and you think the undercover people had an agenda they wanted to prove!
And, how come the honest garages were able to diagnose the problem and only charge for the repair that was needed.
I was kind of on the fence watching you defend mechanics, but that's a little over the top. I'll stick to my policy of driving a car that is under warranty, thank you very much.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
All these "denials in the face of all evidence" reminds me of certain situations developing in the political world right now.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I don't think the Automotive Protection Agency has an agenda to make garages look bad. They do a mystery shopper test to find out what the facts are. Too many people think everything is a conspiracy theory these days....some things actually are real. And, that applies to the real world these days too....some things really happen the way it seems to.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Did this put the bad ones out of business? Permanently?
Did they help you find the good ones who you can trust?
The only thing they accomplish is that they hurt the good guys right alongside the bad ones. You prove that yourself when you say "
I was kind of on the fence watching you defend mechanics, but that's a little over the top. I'll stick to my policy of driving a car that is under warranty, thank you very much."
Wow...the garage charges over $2200 for needless repairs and you think the undercover people had an agenda they wanted to prove!
Yep. Its not like its never happened before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dateline_NBC
General Motors vs. NBC [edit]Further Information: Sidesaddle fuel tank controversy
Dateline NBC aired an investigative report on Tuesday, November 17, 1992, titled “Waiting to Explode”. The 60 minute program was about General Motors' Rounded-Line Chevrolet C/K-Series pickup trucks allegedly exploding upon impact during accidents due to the poor design of fuel tanks. Dateline's film showed a sample of a low speed accident with the fuel tank exploding. In reality, Dateline NBC producers had rigged the truck’s fuel tank with remotely controlled model rocket engines to initiate the explosion. The program did not disclose the fact that the accident was staged
That's a real concern too although having net access lets you weed out some of the garages, assuming you can find believable reviews.
The van is garaged and I keep forgetting that I have a leaky windshield from a replacement a few years ago. This week on the road we've hit rain and I remembered, since the driver's floorboard is wet. I'll try to remember to caulk it if nothing else when I get home (but I said that last time).
Out of all the repairs shops that were given a failing grade and contacted by W5, just one agreed to an interview. Rick Ball owns a Fountain Tire garage. One of his mechanics replaced a battery -- which tested fine both before and after the visit. Ball took full responsibility and his was the only shop that W5 contacted that offered to give back the APA's money.
"I don't like the fact that we made a mistake," says Ball. "I'm beside myself. I've been in this business so long and this is one thing I absolutely do not like about our industry -- that things go wrong, people get sold the wrong things and I just feel terrible about it."
This is the likely result that most of the posters here on ths board would have arrived at had they been tested as one of the techs.
But there were few bright spots in this survey. Overall, for both cities, 22 out of 30 shops were given a failing grade -- for either not spotting the loose battery cable, or for doing unnecessary work.
So its be perfect, or fail and remember you only fail their test. Meanwhile in the real world finding the loose cable does not equal guaranteeing that you actually fixed the car. We fix broken cars, not rigged ones. If we had the chance to flip the tables and I set out to rig a car to run around for a test, how many people do you think would fail to fix the problem? In the end what would that test prove except for the fact that I can trick them when they don't expect it.
Then we have this line from the story.
What can you do? A lot of places offer free or cheap inspections. Take advantage of that
Free inspections are how the techs ultimately get trained to sell stuff needed or otherwise. That advice has been sending the wrong message to consumers and if this story was really about helping protect them, then that shouldn't be there. We have already addressed over selling here, and sure its wrong and I for one have never given in to doing it. But I can't run my shop by doing things for free, and its fair to expect nobody else here works for free do you?
If you get an outlandish estimate or just have a bad feeling, go somewhere else and see if they have the same opinion. It's a bit of a hassle, but it could save you hundreds of dollars.
Or it could cost you hundreds, but they wouldn't be able to sell their story if they said that now could they.
Of course not. NBC doesn't correctly report a lot of things these days either. That's why I read lots of different sources and then decide which things are true and factual and which are not. I also note what's omitted in some reports or completely skipped by some news sources. That's how I reach conclusions about sludge, unintended acceleration, automobile company bankruptcies, etc..
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Thanks Doc, that's why I love forums. Now if I can just find the product. :shades:
Very often, one news story has merely derived from another--it's a story about a story.
Notice how that story gets all of the credibility and I have to fight to make them see it for what it was? All the news had to do was keep fishing until they found their one bad apple and boom, there go the ratings for the show.
I had a car come in where I was working in a shop back in 1990. It was a sting car sent around by one of the local TV stations. They had pulled one plug wire to make the engine in a Caprice run rough. I felt the misfire right away, hooked up the scope and identified the cylinder that wasn't firing by the 40K spike on cyl #5. I found the wire tucked alongside the plug instead of on it. The car didn't need anything else and like I have said I was never about selling stuff anyway.
The shop didn't charge for diagnostics unless they took a lot of time, so I didn't get paid for my efforts or knowledge. The TV station didn't acknowledge the fact that I nailed the problem and didn't try and sell them anything. Doing it right meant nothing to them. Nuff said.
1. Feature a shop that fixed the battery cable and didn't charge or upsell?
2. Feature a shop that isn't a chain store, but rather mom and pop with a good local reputation?
I gotta say, though, some of these shops were real bottom-feeders.
You obviously spent very little time diagnosing the problem since you did not make a charge. Not doing a thorough inspection and diagnosis was a huge mistake on your part.
That loose wire could have just been a coincidence and might have been jarred loose by hitting a pot hole on the way into the shop. Or it could have been an obvious plant to check if a thorough inspection was done even though one obvious problem was found. There could have been other problems that you missed. After all, got to check every possibility.
Are you sure that TV station did not give you a failing grade?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
But, good news isn't always newsworthy. They are looking for drama and DIRT kinda like the National Enquirer!
Not knocking all chains but they always seemed to be the worst.
That's what my grandparents on my Dad's side of the family usually did. Or, if the car started acting up prematurely, like a '75 Dart Swinger they once owned did, they'd trade early. That Dart tended to stall out at random, and the dealer never could fix it, so they traded after two years, on a '77 Granada that promptly dropped the transmission, but was covered under warranty at least, and was fairly reliable after that.
I'm starting to think about doing that route, myself. I recently bought a 2012 Dodge Ram, and have been thinking about trading around the 5 year mark, which is when the powertrain warranty is up. The bumper-to-bumper is 3 years/36000 miles. I'm about 8 months into it, and just broke the 3,000 mile mark, so at the rate I'm going I doubt it'll have 30,000 miles on it in 5 years, so trading at that point might be a bit overkill.
After that I (we) worked on the stations personal cars until I left there.
You obviously spent very little time diagnosing the problem since you did not make a charge
From the time I went out to the car to the time I had it diagnosed was about ten minutes. As soon as I saw it misplaced, and knew that it had not just fallen off and gotten there by itself I expected that someone had been under the hood recently. So I was expecting there to be more to the story and went out front to see if there was more information before I went any further.
The girl who brought the car in tried to lie about how and when the misfire started. I have a little thing about people who try to lie to me when I'm trying to help them. Its one thing for a bad wire to fall off, but its not going to wedge itself alongside the top of the plug like this one was. If the wire had just been dangling and would not have "clicked" back on then it would have proven itself to be bad and needing to be replaced. The moment she started trying to lie about no-one being under the hood recently I knew something wasn't right. Trying to be deceptive with me at anytime gets someone the door. That's when I saw the camera crew in a white Jeep Grand Cherokee sitting in the parking lot of the donut shop that was next door.
Not doing a thorough inspection and diagnosis was a huge mistake on your part.
You think so? That's funny because doing that is what ends up having techs selling things which eventually leads to them getting caught in one of those stings. They need to have a way to get paid for the time that gets spent and they get rewarded with big tickets so they get trained to sell. I was always about going straight in, fixing the problem and getting straight back out. That meant I worked much harder from the moment I walked in the door each day until I left.
Now I have to ask a question. Why would you take such a position as to criticize my routine in favor of one that leads to the employees working in a manner that consumers see as unethical?
There could have been other problems that you missed. After all, got to check every possibility.
No, "I" dont. That's why my name is on the side of the building.
They definitely showed some good honest garages and I think a good mechanic is worth his weight in gold. I have had excellent mechanics and I get the impression you are a good mechanic, you seem to take a lot of pride in your work and in your informative answers.
I know about the exploding gas tanks. This test shown is done every year and You can see work was done that just wasn't needed...nothing to do with the faulty part.
Just an opinion, but, I think there are more dishonest garages than honest ones. There are more dishonest car dealers than honest one. There are more dishonest politicians than honest ones. It is unfortunate, but it seems to be a fact of life.
I have had some excellent mechanics, and I appreciate them and am glad to pay them, but, they aren't always easy to find.
I don't think the program was staged. The automotive protective agency would lose their credibility if that was the case. The good garages were praised as they should be...you could see how proud those mechanics were, even the guy who missed the diagnosis because of a mechanical malfunction he could not help.
You are taking the stand that almost all mechanics are honest. What percentage do you think are not honest? I will repeat, I think you take pride in your work and you are honest.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I think that more of a "real world" question would be:
What percentage are honest, what percent incompetent, what percent dishonest?
THEN you'd have to ask:
Will these percentages vary according to the TYPE of shop: dealer, indie, chain store. (HINT: "YES") :P
Are we talking people or trained mechanics? Even if you say a mechanic may not be able to find a broken part because it was staged, they shouldn't be selling extra parts or things that have nothing to do with the original fault.
What can you do? A lot of places offer free or cheap inspections. Take advantage of that
I agree, their helpful hints are next to useless. A free inspection is probably worth nothing. Like the free muffler inspections, where they hit your muffler with a hammer and then tell you the muffler is broken. I think the best way to find a good mechanic is to find out from someone who is knowledgeable and who tells you a particular mechanic is good. Sometimes I have gone to a garage and found them to be honest as well.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
On the program I presented I think you would have got credit for fixing the proble, several garages did that and got credit.
Just as you can't group all mechanics as good or bad, you can't group all news people. If they left out the good garages their survey is flawed and they lose their credibility.
In the link I presented they showed the good and the bad, and they showed the statistics...and dishonest outweighed honest.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
1. Feature a shop that fixed the battery cable and didn't charge or upsell? I think they did.
2. Feature a shop that isn't a chain store, but rather mom and pop with a good local reputation? One was a small chain - Fountain.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Take your present truck and calculate the cost of owning (just cost and repairs), if you trade after 5 years and after say 10 years.
It may cost $2000 a year more to drive a new truck. For me, that would be worth the extra reliability, safety, convenience (new technologies). And, if it is a business vehicle it may cost only $1000 or $1500 a year more to drive depending on your tax bracket.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
This is a link to a rebuttal. I'm still looking for the original newscast. Allamby's shop got it right when they checked this car over. The station had picked who they were going to "test" by searching the BBB for any shops that had ever had any complaints against them. Their rational was that if there was a complaint, then they had to be a bad shop and just needed to be caught. The truth is, if your in business eventually somebody isn't going to like the way you did something and you don't have to be wrong for them to complain. But the station and its consumer expert (who lost her position later that year) didn't look at it that way and they went ahead with this "story" which when you broke it down in the end was little more than an advertisement for a dealers service facility. That by the way is why you only see independents targeted.
Some of the things that happened behind the scenes were the TV station refused to allow anyone to see the unedited film. The car did in fact develop a transmission fluid leak during its rounds, which was subsequently repaired at the dealership. (Confirmed VIA OAISIS) (This was the same leak that the TV station faulted the independents for finding on air.) But the most fun came when in the middle of the night I had an idea to force the TV stations hand which resulted in a very brief on air apology. Since the TV station mined the BBB to choose shops to test, I urged the shops involved to file complaints against the TV station, and the dealership involved with the BBB. You should have seen the phone ringing for a few days and all of the e-mails after that.
You obviously spent very little time diagnosing the problem since you did not make a charge
It was rare for any shop to charge for diagnostics back then. In fact this shop was the first one that I ever worked at that did. Even then to get paid to do an engine analysis I would have had to run through the entire automated testing that was built into the Bear ACE. (That's the scope that I used to measure the secondary voltage).
The seat of the pants feel that comes from experience as a mechanic takes a long time to learn. For me when I first talked to the girl who brought the car in my routine always included operating the vehicle and making sure that I could feel the problem that was being reported and that feel would take me all the way to expecting what I was going to find wrong with the car. Then I would use the equipment to measure and confirm what I was feeling. This way I had two or more sources of proof as to what was causing the symptom.
When you pull a plug wire off you get a misfire of course, and it's what I call a hard misfire, as opposed to a vacant misfire. I also can hear an engine as it cranks and many times knew when I had a cylinder down on compression just by the sound of the starter. But following the routine, I would still have to identify the cylinder that wasn't firing, run a relative compression test, and then manually test the cylinder that was failing and maybe one other for a reference before I condemned a cylinder.
Now if that looks like a lot, but on top of that how much I drive the car before I even pull it in the door and a what speeds also allows me to feel carburetor/fuel issues, and separate them from secondary ignition issues. Then again as by my routine that I followed I would use the equipment to prove what I believed that I was feeling. It took years to develop that skill, but it was always turned on no matter what I was doing with any car. (and still is but my hearing loss has eroded some of it :sick: )
So back to the sting car. As soon as I started the engine I felt the misfire and it was a hard misfire, which means the cylinder had compression. Putting the car in gear and opening the throttle against the brakes didn't make the misfire go away, so I knew at that moment it was ignition, and not fuel as in a vacuum leak. At that point I need to do the next step of the testing which was identify the cylinder involved. So I pulled it straight into the shop and hooked up the scope and read the secondary voltages and found that #5 was pegging at 40Kv while the rest were in the 12-15Kv range.
With the cylinder identified, the next step is to use a spark checker like an ST125 which takes 30Kv to fire. I have to pull the plug wire off of the plug and attach the tool and re-start the engine. Right away I found the plug wire was mis-installed. So then I confirmed that it would provide spark with the spark checker as usual. Next I put the wire onto the plug correctly, re-started the engine and of course the misfire was now gone .
Here's where things went a little sideways.
The parts of her story that simply didn't fit the facts were that the problem just suddenly occurred a few days earlier. I asked what she had done to the car back then and she said no-one had touched the car. She insisted that it was running fine before it suddenly started shaking.
Sorry, but that actually doesn't make any sense.
The problems here are that a loose plug wire causes a random increase in the secondary demand voltage. There are certain engine loads such as a light cruise, when entering a small grade that also cause the secondary voltage demand to climb much higher across the gap of the plug and combined with a loose wire results in the spark jumping outside of the cylinder and you have a hard random misfire for a while. This also causes carbon tracking of the spark plug and the plug boot very rapidly. It will even burn the distributor cap and rotor and could cross jump inside the distributor and pre-fire the next plug in the firing order and result in a back-fire.
Her story simply didn't add up to the typical results I expect to find and while I'm the last person who will ever win at poker I saw she was really trying to hide something as she intentionally evaded several questions.
Or it could have been an obvious plant to check if a thorough inspection was done even though one obvious problem was found
Go back to the original post in this thread. To pass their sting the techs had to find and address only the loose battery cable. Now you are suggesting that to pass what would be your sting I would have to do something in excess of finding just the loose cable. Am I the only person who see's what's wrong with both of those side by side? Remember as well its one thing to rig a vehicle and tell the tech that its a test, its a completely different thing to slip it in unannounced as part of a normal days work. In the first one, the tech knows they have to find the planted failure and nothing else is of importance. In the second one, they have to find the failure and at the same time note anything else important or risk being blamed for it and then get to fix it for free.
Take all of that together and that's why when I found the wire off, and went out to get more information from the girl suddenly 1+1 weren't 2 anymore.
There was probably a healthy level of disgust on my face when she was trying to deceive me and I started looking away from here as I was trying to think of what to say in order to get some control and get to the bottom of the smoke and mirrors that was taking place. It was then that I saw the guys in the Jeep with the camera. That had to have been hilarious if we could have seen the tape, because I pointed out the camera to the girl and asked her what is this some kind of a trick? Then I saw them immeadiately react to being busted and it all became clear to me what was really going on.
I shouted out to the rest of the guys in the shop to go wave at the camera and let the manager deal with her from there.
The TV station never aired the sting story.
BTW Mr. Reed has never sat down with me about the one he did with NBC yet either.....................
Very good story and it does prove your point that the media can falsely accuse a good business of doing the wrong thing, just to make a news story. The people at Allamby's seem to be honest, hard working, and ethical.
However, I still believe there are some garages who are unscrupulous. And, I still believe that the link I provided wasn't bias, as it was a fair test, and some garages completed the test and were excellent.
One other thing, the BBB is almost useless. They charge a fee to be on their list, and if you don't pay you will probably get bad reports. It isn't based on real facts, and it isn't fair. Also, they don't have the funds to check anything themselves, most of their information is just anecdotal.
btw...howcome you garage guyz are so good with English grammar. You are very literate and the guy reporting from Allamby's had excellent command of the English language....you're not one in the same are you?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Would you like to ask me how much credibility they have with the top techs around the country?
I have had some excellent mechanics, and I appreciate them and am glad to pay them, but, they aren't always easy to find.
When stories like these come out, they should provide advice for how to find the good techs. But instead you see stuff like the free inspection comments, and you won't find the best people by starting with the word free anywhere in the sentence.
You are taking the stand that almost all mechanics are honest.
Not at all, I am saying that not all are dishonest and these stings rarely do anything to help consumers find the right people.
What percentage do you think are not honest?
Some of the most incompetent techs I ever met are also some of the most honest people I know. The ones that get caught in these stings that are the real thieves are less than 1% and we wuold like nothing better than to get them out permanently. But I'll go with that 1% if have to guess a number. The problem is any guess of any number opens the door for all kinds of ways for other posters to try and take that to task and that's just going to be a waste of bandwidth because none of us have any proof one way or another.
However lets have some fun with your honesty question.
When was the last time a cashier gave you change, made a mistake in your favor and you returned the money?
Do you do that everytime?
FWIW, I always do because its the honest thing to do and I know how much of a problem it will be for that person for the drawer to be wrong.
When was the last time you saw someone drop some money or anything else and you made sure that they got it back?
Turning your question around, first what do you do for a living, and what percentage of the people are honest in what you do?
Honesty isn't a part time job. Yet people will try and suggest that a given parts mark up or gross profit isn't honest when they talk about our (and others) trade. Did you ever consider that they stopped being honest and were in fact trying to steal something the moment that they started complaining?
Understood and point well taken. In your case, this makes sense. In my case I still wonder why some garages found the problem and corrected it.
And that one very honest mechanic missed it because of a diagnostic machine failure, and he felt bad that he missed it....which tells me under normal circumstances he feels he would have found it.
As far as "free" diagnosis goes....some things should be paid for. Sometimes doing a free diagnosis is just part of business. Salesman may talk to 10 potentials before they close a sale. A plumber may come to the house and give you an estimate which you can accept or not. Sometiomes you win with a free estimate and sometimes you don't.....it is just a way to show customers you are open and honest and only want to do the best for your customer.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
It is (theoretically) supported by good businesses to get rid of bad businesses.
I think many of the regulars around here just fainted because I think I heard a huge gasp. :shades:
First, no we are not the same person. As far as being able to write, why should that be a surprise? I've been accused of trying to make auto repair out to be rocket science because some DIY'er can change his own oil. The reality is to being a top tech today demands multiple skills, the least of which is the ability to document our findings. If someone isn't very good academically today, they are not a candidate to become a technician and work on the robotics in today's cars.
Like myself, the owner at Allamby's is a member of the iATN and constant use of the forums there (and elsewhere) has actually helped polish the communication skills of a lot of the top techs around the world. We all have a habit of "encouraging" each other to practice of good grammar and spelling in the posts there and it now shows in everything that we do.
At the same time at least for me I have to give a lot of the credit to the modern PC. I cannot do with a pen, what I can with a keyboard.
Do you do that everytime?
FWIW, I always do because its the honest thing to do and I know how much of a problem it will be for that person for the drawer to be wrong.
The last time this happened to me, and it doesn't happen very often, was over a year ago. The cashier at a grocery store actually gave me $20 too much, and I returned it to her as soon as I double checked to make sure it was a mistake.
Why you ask? I have a business too, and I have seen people who cheat and steal or try to get away with things. I choose not to go down that road because it is a pretty slippery slope. I always try to be as fair as possible to my customers and to every one I come into contact with, I like to make the world a better place.
I suspect the 1% figure is pretty low. In one city the Auto Protection Agency had about 10% as honest and competent and in another survery 1/3. Those numbers could be off, but I think in most businesses about 20 to 33% of people could be unscrupulous.
We once had a 95 Volvo and we had a problem with the engine cutting out. One Volvo dealer tried to fix it and failed but they told us we needed work on the front brakes. Their repair of the engine didn't work, so we took it to another Volvo dealer. They tried to fix the problem too, but they said we needed repairs to the back brakes. Now, someone or both of them aren't telling us the truth!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Sometimes doing a free diagnosis is just part of business.
Many want to call it a "Loss Leader", take a loss on something in order to lead a customer in the door. I prefer to call that a "Lost Leader".
Salesman may talk to 10 potentials before they close a sale. A plumber may come to the house and give you an estimate which you can accept or not.
Lost Leaders......
Sometiomes you win with a free estimate and sometimes you don't.....
Who does? Not me. I can give what ever I want to away for free, I'll show you where that actually costs us customers simply because now they feel they owe us something and they are uncomfortable and maybe even embarrased with that. If they feel that the ledger is balanced they are usually much happier with the business arrangement. Another way to look at it is imagine saying to someone "Don't worry about it right now, we will just put it on the next bill". Six months later they need something and the first thing they recall is they still owe you and have owed you for some six months. Now they feel guilty and are ashamed so they go elsewhere.
it is just a way to show customers you are open and honest and only want to do the best for your customer.
That's a myth. Just like to be AAA approved I have to have a fancy waiting room and a bathroom just for the customers. My shop has neither of those and it isn't going to. Our ability to fix cars isn't measured by where the commode is but that prevents us from having AAA approval.