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Comments
It sure does.
Just tell me when you’re finished editing post 2835 so I can give you a response.
You’re first cut at this post is shown below as it went out on the street. I’m not good at hitting moving targets. (Note the differences in the post times which is documentation that the post was edited)
#2835 of 2835 Re: closed for lunch? [jmonroe] by busiris
May 21, 2013 (6:38 am)
Replying to: jmonroe (May 21, 2013 4:45 am)
. I said right from the beginning that I did NOT submit ANY receipts for oil or oil filters.
It does seem the story is evolving. I was always under the impression you had submitted at lease some receipts before being denied coverage.
Are we to assume the only thing you actually gave as proof was a spreadsheet?
If so, its little wonder you were rejected, as a spreadsheet could've easily been "conjured up" well after the problem arose.
End of your first cut at post 2835.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
But, why would you keep a log of oil changes but not receipts of oil and filters purchased?
Busiris, in msg 2835, said:
a spreadsheet could've easily been "conjured up" well after the problem arose.
I keep a log book, and I don’t keep receipts. But – big but coming up here. As I stated in msg 2805, I use a bound notebook (no chance of adding or removing pages), and all entries are sequential, hand written by me. Every tank of gas, every oil change, every tire rotation, etc, etc, is recorded, in order, in my handwriting. I understand the convenience of a spreadsheet, but I wouldn’t really expect anyone to be convinced by it.
Speaking of oil changes at the dealer, my new Chevy truck came with free oil changes for the first 24 months / 24k miles. Not exactly a big deal, the fine print states you have to be at 20% on the "oil minder". My limited experience with the GM "oil minder" indicates it would hit 20% at somewhere between 7k and 10k. That surely ain't happening.
On the other hand, maybe I could get every other oil change? Which might get me two free oil changes, maybe? If I remember not to reset the oil minder when I change it myself?
I suspect the dealer is safe from me, they'll probably never have to make good on this offer.
So you had some of the receipts with you, but didn't turn them in. You assumed you would have a stronger position in getting the warranty work by presenting only your log book. Giving only a partial number of receipts would give the impression that those missing weren't done.
In looking at my Hyundai owners manual, it says to keep all receipts as proof maintenance was done. To each his own, but the ole jipster is just too cheap to risk warranty work not being done because I didnt keep my receipts. :surprise:
Since when has editing a post in order to ask for more information become some sort of crime?
Look, dude.... I'm not against you, and I'm not the one that denied your claim.
I just find it odd that when one didn't have 100% of the evidence at hand to back up his claim, he decided to provide 0% of the evidence in his possession, somehow thinking that would be more persuasive. And, just to clarify, a spreadsheet isn't any sort of verifiable proof that a reasonable person would expect to be acceptable on a warranty claim.
Here's the long and short of it. If someone goes to the trouble of detailing work done in a spreadsheet, it indicates they're somewhat detailed-oriented. And, detailed-oriented people have a tendency to keep things like receipts, and to be able to produce them on demand. Everyone understands an occasional misplaced or lost document, but having Zero supporting documentation raises a huge red flag.
I'm truly sorry your claim was denied, and I have no thoughts other than you performed the service as you stated, and the problem was not your fault.
Lashing out at posters when they're trying to simply understand exactly what the facts are, and exactly what happened isn't a very good way to garner support for your actions, however.
The topic has gone off course into a consumer orientation rather than a mechanic's orientation, and I'd like for us to come back to the primary focus of this topic.
I would also ask that we remain vigilant in keeping the discussion to that of ideas and not personalities.
Thank you, please continue.
If you'd like to pursue the subject of warranties from the repair shop's point of view, that might be interesting.
Since Cardoc is the gt-to guy here, with probably more experience than the rest of us combined, I'd like to ask his opinion on what he feels would constitute a reasonable set of evidence for such a warranty claim as jmonroe submitted...
How 'bout it, doc?
And I'm not agreeing here with doc's opinion, (was it doc?...don't mean to put words in his mouth if it wasn't him) that had they fixed him up, they would have still rec'd future bad or negative press no matter what. Had that been me, and had Hyundai gone to bat for me, I'd be singing their praises for life. And I gotta big mouth, which I'm sure the regulars here can attest to..
Usually, in a dispute, one side wins-the other side loses.
It's difficult for me to see how a manufacturer can be held at fault when the other party didn't live up to the terms of the contract.
In this case, its really a situation that didn't have to be. In all probability, with the appropriate documentation in hand, the claimant would have had his vehicle repaired and returned to him. The claimant was fully aware of the information required to successfully achieve a warranty claim. It wasn't hidden from him, nor did it require some sort of double-secret handshake to enable it.
No one should expect the other party to keep up their end of a contract if they aren't willing do the very same thing.
But I guess the point I have been trying to support in jm's case, is that no doubt, yes, technically he gave them an obvious out, and they took it...but it seems that they took that out with seemingly very little regard to his already having invested in a number of Hyundai's in the past. And the other facts that I keep bringing up, so won't repeat again and again.
I am the other way around when it comes to documentation...I have been burned so many times in the past that I have learned to be more and more diligent as necessary as I have had to learn to do over the years. Either that, or pay up in instances when I know that it was not a fair bill. Now jm suggested that my taking pics (which only takes but a few seconds per snap) he would not go to the trouble of. But since digital came along I use my camera (I have a number of them depending on the job) and use them extensively for all my mechanical work, and also at my contracting customers for before and after shots. I'm think that for the sake of $3000. I'll bet he had kept all the receipts and submitted the photos. Digital photos now carry info that can't really be messed with, and even if someone does hack EXIF files, in small claims, considering all the facts that we have from beginning to end on this case, there is a term called preponderance of evidence. And in so far as at the great internet arm's length that any one of us here can support an opinion on...I'm thinking that in many judges eyes, that preponderance has already been met.
Now to also involve devil's advocate..there is another thing... if this dealership was dishonest, do you not think that they would willfully write down the wrong odometer figure knowing that that combined with no other receipts would help make it slam dunk for them if the customer were to take it to court?
If I were the judge, I would look carefully of everything and anything that was submitted, even comparing ink colors and size of pen-tip markings on each documentary. If it was a criminal case, then that is still decidedly all very circumstantial and technically also easily manipulated. But in small claims, I think he had a case.
I do wonder why he didn't at least strive to make a deal with them and say well in light of everything, at least help me with half the bill.
First of all, that assumes the dealership had knowledge of the owner not having ANY supporting documentation, which, not knowing the exact timeline of events, may or may not be a valid assumption.
However, the main problem I see with that assumption is this: The warranty guarantee comes from the manufacturer, not the dealer. Warranty repairs of that magnitude aren't the dealer's decision, but the manufacturer's.
Case in point: My daughter's 2009 Nissan Versa's CVT fried a bearing at 2 years and 49 K miles. I took it to the dealership, along with my folder of maintenance and receipts (not that it really mattered, since the CVT had never been serviced, nor was it scheduled for service in the owner's manual). The dealership had to wait a day for a manufacturer's rep to check it out, and once he took a look, he approved a replacement. My daughter had the car back in less than a week.
IMO, its a real stretch to see the dealership commit fraud in order to avoid an expense someone else was paying. And, as has been noted earlier, it would really seem to be a poor business model to screw your repeat customers. After all, they already like you, and its much cheaper to keep existing customers than it is to go out and get new ones.
As I see it, it would have been in the dealership's best interest to find a way to cover the repairs under warranty. It would more than likely result in a happy (or at a minimum, satisfied) customer that would likely return for future sales.
And, as the old adage goes... Make a customer happy, and he'll tell a few of his close friends.... Make a customer unhappy, and he'll tell everyone he meets.
One last thing. Some may think I just fell off the turnip truck, but I don't really think the average car dealership is any more or less dishonest than just about any other kind of business. Yes, anecdotal evidence abounds, but there are a lot of dealerships in my area that have been in business (same ownership) ever since I've lived here (35 years). There are also a few dealerships that seem to change ownership on a daily basis, and I've learned to avoid them like the plague.
I'd guess my area is like most areas as it relates to dealerships.
I don't think any business can regularly screw its customer base and survive for an extended length of time.
In other words...fix the car under warranty or deny the claim outright.
First of all, that assumes the dealership had knowledge of the owner not having ANY supporting documentation, which, not knowing the exact timeline of events, may or may not be a valid assumption.
However, the main problem I see with that assumption is this: The warranty guarantee comes from the manufacturer, not the dealer. Warranty repairs of that magnitude aren't the dealer's decision, but the manufacturer's.
Case in point: My daughter's 2009 Nissan Versa's CVT fried a bearing at 2 years and 49 K miles. I took it to the dealership, along with my folder of maintenance and receipts (not that it really mattered, since the CVT had never been serviced, nor was it scheduled for service in the owner's manual). The dealership had to wait a day for a manufacturer's rep to check it out, and once he took a look, he approved a replacement. My daughter had the car back in less than a week.
IMO, its a real stretch to see the dealership commit fraud in order to avoid an expense someone else was paying. And, as has been noted earlier, it would really seem to be a poor business model to screw your repeat customers. After all, they already like you, and its much cheaper to keep existing customers than it is to go out and get new ones.
As I see it, it would have been in the dealership's best interest to find a way to cover the repairs under warranty. It would more than likely result in a happy (or at a minimum, satisfied) customer that would likely return for future sales.
And, as the old adage goes... Make a customer happy, and he'll tell a few of his close friends.... Make a customer unhappy, and he'll tell everyone he meets.
One last thing. Some may think I just fell off the turnip truck, but I don't really think the average car dealership is any more or less dishonest than just about any other kind of business. Yes, anecdotal evidence abounds, but there are a lot of dealerships in my area that have been in business (same ownership) ever since I've lived here (35 years). There are also a few dealerships that seem to change ownership on a daily basis, and I've learned to avoid them like the plague.
I'd guess my area is like most areas as it relates to dealerships.
I don't think any business can regularly screw its customer base and survive for an extended length of time.
We (the collective we) know him.... He voluntarily told his story here (well, in another discussion)... so, he has no reason to lie..
Given that... we now know that the Hyundai didn't blow an engine due to lack of maintenance.
So... why would Hyundai assume that? Especially without any evidence to the contrary.. No one is required to do their maintenance at the dealer.. The IRS accepts a logbook for mileage driven, so surely Hyundai could accept it for oil changes (again, without any evidence to the contrary)..
How do you deny a warranty claim without investigating the cause of the problem? They removed the valve covers? That's it?
That's the issue... they advertise their extra-long warranties, but then look for every opportunity to deny coverage... It would be different if Hyundai were an insurance company, but they aren't. They are a car manufacturer. In this case, they didn't back their product.
I find it's better to look for those products that have built a reputation for reliability, than depend on a company's promises to fix their crappy product when it breaks.
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I guess it looks like I have been bitten once to often with a dealership peeing in my hear, only to attempt to convince me it's only rain, so my obvious bias is revealing itself. I have had too many dealerships assume their customer knows nothing mechanical and then they reveal themselves as honest or not.
Why not? He could, for instance, claim fraud, which initiates legally from the time of discovery, not the time of incident.
settlement |ˈsetlmənt|
noun
1 an official agreement intended to resolve a dispute or conflict : unions succeeded in reaching a pay settlement | the settlement of the Palestinian problem.
¥ a formal arrangement made between the parties to a lawsuit in order to resolve it, esp. out of court : the owner reached an out-of-court settlement with the plaintiffs.
But I am not a lawyer. Nor are you.
edit - and as for claiming fraud... huh? It's not really fraud. And before he would want to go anywhere near there (in whatever law capacity would allow), wouldn't he (jm) want to make sure all his ducks had previously been in a row? Which we know by his own admission, they aren't/weren't.
Repair shop receipts, and/or receipts from parts stores that show the year, make, model, and engine for which the oil and filter were purchased.
Someone mentioned a full mileage log and that the services were documented on that. I'd accept it but I'm not the O.E. Now what the O.E. should accept would be the fully documented log in the owners manual for service intervals. When requested we not only give our customers our own computer generated receipts, but I write in the service date, and mileage in the owners manual and sign it. I've never had a customer who had a warranty issue when we serviced their car, but I can tell you that if we did I'd handle it even if it meant me building and installing an engine or transmission for them.
That's why I pay for insurance, to take care of my customers needs if something ever goes wrong.
Let's say, oh I don't know, an employee comes up to you and hands you a memo that shows some kind of bad faith arrangement, or destruction of evidence, etc.
Or let's say the manufacturer comes out with a subsequent extended warranty on engines after the fact--so maybe you'd want compensation for the money you laid out in the settlement.
I don’t have a chip of any size on my shoulder. I just don’t like being grilled when I have already answered questions.
You asked in post 2806, “Lastly, I'd like to know more detail about the mileage discrepancy issue. Do you save your dealership work orders, etc? How about elaborating on that subject, being as precise and detailed as possible - dates, times, service performed, length of time the dealer had the car,,, you get the idea.”
Yes, I get the idea but I don’t think a judge would ask all of that. The dealer damn sure didn’t.
Since when has editing a post in order to ask for more information become some sort of crime?
There is nothing wrong with editing a post. If there was, Edmunds wouldn’t allow it and I’m sure everyone has done it. When you wrote post 2835 I was ready to provide a response and when I was about to submit it I noticed that the content had more than doubled in size. A lot of which were repeat questions. If you are going to edit a post say EDIT: then list your new material. I don’t think that is asking too much. It’s bad enough when people edit their posts and let you know it but because of the time stamp, by the time it hits the street again the time sequence is out of order. But when the content has also changed with no indication that it did, that really messes up guys like me.
Since we are talking about documentation try to help me out a little here, OK?
One final time:
The Service Advisor told me that my oil log sheet was good enough and that they could go with it because he had seen a lot less supporting documentation. I’m not blaming him in any way for me not providing the receipts that I had. I would also like to say again that just like the dealers windshield oil sticker machine that printed out that the wrong oil was installed, the dealer is capable of making mistakes too. And I’m NOT saying that IF 5W20 vs. 10W30 was installed that was the reason for the catastrophic engine failure because I seriously doubt that only 500 miles of very mild in town driving by Mrs. j would have caused that rod to go through the block. The thing that bugs me is that Hyundai didn’t care that the engine was VERY CLEAN (their words) nor did they give one damn that I was a three time customer in a period of 7 years.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Well in that case, yes, he would stand a far better chance of attempting to renege on his settlement, and perhaps not a waste of time, $ and energy. But in most usual cases, in my experience, a settlement, really kills your chances of further avenues or rather...let's say...results in the plaintiff's favor.
Well, as I see it the SA spoke without authority. He led you to believe you were covered and in the clear, when in reality, it wasn't his call to make, nor the dealership management. It's clear who makes the warranty coverage call... The manufacturer.
What's curious is why the dealership didn't appear to step up in your defense, especially since you were a repeat customer.
In the end, looks to me like you were hung out to dry, for whatever reason.
Hmmmm..
I just thought you should know that factory level scan tools record the vehicle mileage directly from the vehicle during the diagnostics. With the integration of todays systems the technicians don't have to write it down in most cases as it gets logged right into the data base. This would be especially true with an airbag system repair due to potential liability issues.
Then we have some excerpts from several posts in this thread and the original one. One had to do with someone saying that you are so experienced that you could never make a mistake like double gasketing a filter. That actually happens BTW because of a filter seal sticking to the flange when one filter is removed and then getting sandwiched between the new filter and its gasket. I find several every year that stick and I don't attribute not making that mistake to knowledge or experience. I account it to training and I was trained to always wipe the filter flange off with a clean rag. Its that step that ensures that I discover the previous seal stuck on the flange.
Then we have the event when the failure first occurred. I can picture seeing the oil running on the ground and finding the piece of metal that was described. But I cannot imagine failing to immeadiately identify that piece of metal as a section of the block that was knocked out by a connecting rod that had failed.
Lastly the part that really has me shaking my head was not fixing the car. If you really wanted to get back at the dealer or Hyundai, you should have towed the car out and had it repaired. I used to work at the dealerships as a tech and I saw how they aggresively tried trading people out of their cars when their old one needed repairs. Yea, it might have been 4K to put an engine in the Hyundai, but so what? 4K is somewhere close to about ten months worth of payments on the new car and then you would have owned it debt free. Correctly repaired it would have given you years of service because as you said it was well maintained, and said another way it would have done everything a brand new one would have (which is get you from here to there) and it would have let you put away some six to ten years worth of future car payments into the bank for what ever you wanted to use that money towards.
As I said, I used to work at dealerships so I guess I would have been one of your nitwits. I also have encountered people who have litterally said to me things like "If you are so smart, why are you only fixing cars for a living" Or "If you were smarter you wouldn't have to fix cars for a living" Those statements go right with your nitwit comment above. Its depressing to see someone look down their nose a techs like that, while they in turn are praised as being so gifted with cars and yet when the real test came, failed so miserably.
I’m going to be very honest here about that.
When it was first thought that Mrs. j hit something on the road, which she didn’t as we all know now, the dealer wanted over 4 grand plus tax to replace the engine. Then after they knew it was a bad engine and it was really their responsibility to fix (the dealer and or Hyundai) but didn’t, they said, “Mr. jmonroe, we’d like to help you as much as we can with getting the price down from the $4K that we first gave you. So, using some dealer incentives and dealer coupons we can drop a brand new out of the crate Hyundai short block engine in your car for, let’s say, $3K plus tax. That is the price if we can use both of the heads from the bad engine but because of how clean the engine is I don’t think you have anything to worry about the heads being bad”. Did you get that? He said it again, the engine was clean.
I was considering having the new engine installed for 3 grand plus tax and then trying to sell it as a private sale for around $6200. When I mentioned this to both of my sons they said if it were them they wouldn’t touch a car with around 41K miles that had to have a new engine installed because the thought would be, had badly abused was the rest of the car if the engine went at 41K miles, especially the tranny. Even with the car being in great shape body wise they said they still would not go near a car like that. Since I would not be able to pass on the 100K mile warranty that I would have been given on the new engine (for whatever good that was), I decided to sell it to the dealer as it sat for $2800. And that took some work but since I knew he wanted the car that was the only way he was going to get it. The reason I sold it to him was because after I thought about it again, with the $2800 in my hand for the car and having to pay $3K plus the tax on the $3K ($210) for the new engine, even if I could get $6200 for it, I’d be breaking about even anyway and I wouldn’t have to try to sell it to some grinder.
After I found out the engine was gone, a salesman told me that if I wanted to trade it they would give me $1800 for it and that would only be if they could find a wholesaler to take it. There was no way I was going to give the car away for $1800. I knew they would fix the car and put it on their lot so I didn’t appreciate being insulted with that line by some greenpea. I was right, in the end the dealer put an engine in it and put it on his lot for essentially $10K ($9985) and it sold in less than a week. Like I said before in SFTSFL, I’m sure they didn’t get $10K for it but I’d be willing to bet they got at least $8K and probably more since they could sell it with a new engine 100K mile warranty.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I couldn’t agree with you more about double gasketing an oil filter. I was also taught to always wipe the flange off and to look for a smooth surface while you’re there. I can honestly say I have NEVER double gasketed an oil filter. I learned from a good mechanic about how to avoid that when I was a kid. I remember him saying something like, “If you don’t see a gasket when you remove the filter you’re going to be in trouble, so keep looking”. This has been further enforced by the horror stories we have all heard about that.
Then we have the event when the failure first occurred. I can picture seeing the oil running on the ground and finding the piece of metal that was described. But I cannot imagine failing to immeadiately identify that piece of metal as a section of the block that was knocked out by a connecting rod that had failed.
Believe me I looked for a piece of the block when I saw the leak and all I found was a small piece of aluminum that was very thin along the side of the road. You gotta give me a little bit of credit for knowing it was definitely not a piece of the engine block. I at least know that much about an engine block.
As I said, I used to work at dealerships so I guess I would have been one of your nitwits. I also have encountered people who have litterally said to me things like "If you are so smart, why are you only fixing cars for a living" Or "If you were smarter you wouldn't have to fix cars for a living" Those statements go right with your nitwit comment above. Its depressing to see someone look down their nose a techs like that, while they in turn are praised as being so gifted with cars and yet when the real test came, failed so miserably.
For an appreciation of why I said “nitwits”, it would be best explained if you went to “Got a Quick Question for a Car Dealer” and read posts 1191 and 1210. After that if you want to, go to post 48743 in SFTSFL, that is the icing on the cake.
I have a lot of respect for guys that work on cars that know what they are doing. To do a good job at that today takes more skill/brains than most of the people that go to them but there are still too many that I don’t trust. The kid that did the first oil change on the Genny was one that I don’t trust. If you know something about cars, and I think I do, at least the basic stuff, when you see shoddy work being done you just cringe.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I can tell you don’t work for Hyundai.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
That is what happened here. Jmonroe took excellent care of his car yet "something" happened.
Anotehr reason for me to not like Korean cars!
hurt the manufactures casee.
Some dealers "get it" that good customer service and repeat business and a fine reputation are the keys to success, but some dealers just get sour on the business. You need to be thick-skinned, no doubt about it, and not be prone to ulcers.
Someone give that man a cigar!
No, I've never been employed by any auto dealership, but there are certain business principles that are universal.
Like I stated I an earlier post, many dealers "get it" and find a way to balance the manufacturer's requirements and business techniques against the needs of correctly servicing their customers in a satisfactory way.
I've always been suspect of my local Hyunkia dealerships, if for no other reason that every time you hear or see an advertisement, its ALWAYS about price. My personal experience has been that, overall, dealerships that strive for high-volume sales are the same ones that provide less than stellar service to their customers. They also change ownership at higher rates than what I like to call the more "traditional" dealership.
Your dealership experience may have been different. I can't say...
You can get a great price on a car from these types of dealers at times, and if your vehicle doesn't have any issues, it can work out well.
My crystal ball is a bit cloudy on things like that, so I tend to shy away from that type of dealer.
A little tale about that:
When I went into the used car manager’s office at the dealership that denied my warranty claim to see if they wanted to buy my car as it sat with a blown engine, the sales manager said, “Yeah, I have something around here about that car from when the salesman talked to me about it the night you wanted a price on it”. He starts going through his file box and I said, “if the price you have on whatever you are looking for is what you are going to give me now, don’t waste your time. I’ll just leave”. Remember, they were going to give me $1800 for it that night and only if they could find a wholesaler for it. He tells me he has to have a “starting point”. So, I sit down to listen to what he has to say. He tells me I’m pretty well known around there because of what happened to my car. I said, “I hope well enough that you aren’t going to try to screw me with an offer”. He says right away that dealer reps are a PITA to deal with and they go at it with them all the time no matter which one is on duty at the time. He goes on to tell me I got a raw deal with my car and he didn’t want me “to go away with a bad taste in my mouth” about his dealership. That was the reason he upped his price to eventually $2800 from his initial thieving offer of $1800. By then I didn’t care what the reason was, I just wanted to get as much as I could. But like I said before, it took some work for him to finally see it my way. I was ready to leave twice only to be told “have a seat we can work this out”.
FWIW, I tried to get $3K for it but he damn near went horizontal on me. Almost falling out of his chair backwards having thrown himself back so hard, so I backed off. Every time I think about seeing him do that I have to smile. Just like I’m doing now.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Well, the above runs counter to what you wrote earlier about the dealership not going to bat for you. Hyundai was just being a "PITA" to deal with... sounds like the dealership did all they could. Hyundai denied your claim, not the dealership.
The dealership went to bat for you, they gave you $1,000 more than your car was worth. And in return you cost them 3 sales worth thousands of dollars in profit?
OK, I read that story. You got a youngster doing a job that notoriously has little to no security for the employee, and he is trying to service a car where a customer is not only breathing down his neck but nit-picking the whole operation. From the kids perspective, he can't say "BOO" to you and not risk losing his job, and lots of people don't do their best while they are under someone's microscope. Then we have the details of the job and instead of me pasting and commenting on what I read some ten hours ago I'm just going to make a few points.
Nobody removes the little bleed screw on the filter cap. The temperature of the oil can easily be scalding hot, as many of the specs for an oils viscosity is 100C and then 150C. (212f-301f) Taking that little screw out doesn't eliminate the scalding risk because that is far greater when you remove the engine oil drain plug than when the filter is removed.
As far as the kid not using the appropriate tool, today I own 36 unique filter wrenches and I happen to know that your Hyundai takes one that is the only car that it fits and it took almost two years after your car hit production for the tool guys to carry it. He should have had access to the correct tool, I can only wonder if the pressure of the moment started to contribute to his getting sloppy with his workmanship. Its also possible that he may not have survived as a technician to much pressure at such a point in his young career and he likely left for greener pastures.
Lastly the part that tells the most about your overall true comprehension has to do with the comment about the need to take the filler cap off in order to get all of the oil out. I do believe in taking the cap off before I drain the oil, but that has nothing to do with the oil being able to drain. The fresh air inlet for the PCV system will easily allow the crankcase to not pull into a vacuum and prevent the oil from draining. I teach the techs to pull the cap off because there are many times when the hood release is damaged and it might be beyond their ability to open the hood. It is highly reccomended that they get the hood open before they drain the oil and making them take the filler cap off prevents that trap from springing on them.
The removal of some filters does allow for draining of more of the old oil. GM's 2.2 EcoTec cartridge filter being one fine example of that, and the cannister filters of BMW and Mercedes are others. If someone is really worried about that oil because of the oils condition they have much bigger problems at play than a few oz of old oil getting mixed with the new. The oil should never get so bad that it should be such a concern. Many engine designs trap significant amounts of latent oil and nothing short of a major tear down is going to get it all out. (Fords Powerstroke traps in excess of two quarts, about 15-20% of a change volume)
The only thing I agree with you about is that from then on you should do your own services. I only wish that somehow you could get to experience having someone flip the tables on you, and then call you names for the trouble they cause.
I couldn't help but wonder why he brought it there in the first place. It would have been far faster and simpler for him to just clean the car himself. The car wash manager finally had to ask him to either take his car and leave, or return to the waiting area.
He got upset, took his car and left.
First time I'd ever seen that at a full-service car wash... I'm t honking he won't be a repeat customer...
It should be pretty cut and dry. Except for the "routine" versus "extreme" conditions on oil change mileage intervals. They could get everybody on that one. :sick:
There's always some rap on just about any car, and some may be exaggerated, but you know what they say about smoke and fire.
Oh, another example, I was reading complaints about Hyundai/Kia gas mileage before the class action settlement and the EPA investigating. Now it's Ford in the cross-hairs (I missed the Civic Hybrid reflash issue since I don't skim the hybrid boards).
I think Doc said he mostly drives an Explorer. One theory is that we should all be driving what our mechanics drive, since they've seen it all and know what cars are better than others.
But the mechanics can fix 'em all and keep them tuned before they break down.
There is no such thing with DC circuitry. If cars had AC, I wouldn't be arguing this but they don't. Try again !!
jmonroe
Well its been a while since you had that debate back in 2009, have you found out since then that cars today do indeed have AC as well as DC? (and many did back then too)
If we hadn't hit a deer with it last year it would likely have over 220K on it now. As it is I'd drive it anywhere tomorrow. But we couldn't go without a 4WD with all of the travel that we do in the north east during the winter so we bought a 4cyl Escape. Our other Fords are an 07 Mustang GT, and a 94 Ranger. By the end of this year they will all be over 100K except for our Mustang.
The only Toyota I ever bought is my daughter's 04 Rav4. She's got 160K on it.
But the mechanics can fix 'em all and keep them tuned before they break down.
All of my cars come with a lifetime guarantee. If they break during my lifetime, you can guarantee that I'm the person who will be fixing it. :shades:
I drove to State College one year from my sister's to visit ModBob (aka pf_flyer) and I've never seen so many deer carcasses on the shoulders as on that trip. Worse than the UP and I figure that'll be the ultimate demise of the minivan.
Oh, the van is still "off" but the mpg seems to have leveled off around 21/22ish. In better days, it'd get at least 24 for the easy highway driving we've mostly been doing.
I know cars equipped with Comfort Access have replaceable batteries, but there aren't any replaceable batteries in non-Comfort Access key fobs.
I'll have to look it up to know. It's entirely possible, but BMW's fall into the group of cars that I cannot justify investing much time and money into being ready to service fully. There just wouldn't be a reasonable return on the investment cost.
I do!
I thought I was gonna be done with this but dog gonnit, I'm not freakin' gonna buy this little tidbit, doc. Ya know...you really do step out and into it when you defend to a fault. It's like you beg for someone to call you on some of this stuff..And you have defended that kid to a fault. Need I go back over and point at each way the kid screwed up? He started screwing up before he became under the microscope..And I maintain, yes, it can be more stressfull having someone watch your every move, but if the moves are knowledgeable and correct, where's the worry?? If ya can't stand the heat, don't be in the kitchen, right?
And stuff is what you just tried to tell us. First off, this 'bleed' screw you speak of on the XG, I haven't seen, but I HAVE seen more than a few on other types of vehicles from trucks to bikes to cars. I'd prefer to call it a drain screw...but no matter what you call it, to suggest that a mech could burn himself from the oil that comes out of that little screw in anywhere near the same vein as the drain screw, really does call into question credibility here. For starters..DUH!!!!!!!!!!! don't have your fingers UNDER where the oil comes out! Second, use a tool! For the drain plug I use an old pair of leather gloves...ones I use for such tasks and greasing. But I don't really rely on the gloves. I use the edge of long bladed screw driver and just scarf the edge of the bolt with the end until it plops into the drain pan. I could use a socket and extension with a universal joint, but choose to not have to have to wipe down those parts cuz I don't like them slippery after when doing other jobs.
And besides any of that, the drain screw is there for a reason. Used properly it helps reduce the chance of burns when the filter is screwed off and helps keep the engine block etc cleaner of oil (due to less volume that isn't controlled) that even if wiped..long after will seep and look like a leak down the road. And does help drain off the last bits of old oil for whatever that's worth. I get it, you say not much so let's concentrate more on my first point.
I have to say, you tend to make EVERYTHING out to be rocket science, and it's not. I'd like to ask you to stop insulting some of our collective intelligence here, but suspect it'll be a waste of typing effort..
I don't plan on going back and forth with you on this..so you can pretty much say whatever ya want and I'll let others decide for themselves who is raising an overly precautionary flag or not..
Scalding...of all the things that an oil change kid has to learn, that one requires enough common sense that those same brain cells should already be exercised when he wipes his butt in the morning so should be well prepped for a day of oil changes.
It's like you beg for someone to call you on some of this crap
Well since you want to put it that way, if someone does try they better bring their "A" game. Just sayin....
I have to say, you tend to make EVERYTHING out to be rocket science, and it's not. I'd like to ask you to stop insulting some of our collective intelligence here, but suspect it'll be a waste of typing effort
If you really believe that what top techs do is so simple, then let's get you a job as one and see how you are doing in a year, two, and on down the road. There are a lot of people who talk big, and many of them claim to be "EX" mechanics. From my POV they are usually "EX" for a real good reason. As good as they thought they were when it all shook out they couldn't make it as a mechanic for one reason or another. This has to be the only trade that you get better at it by failing and quitting then you can by working hard and applying yourself to be the best that you can for your entire adult life.
You want to say that I'm trying to make this all out to be rocket science. Why do you not question those who think its as easy as finger painting? If someone isn't working full time as a tech today, and dealing with the robotics that are in todays cars, then they really don't know what they are talking about anymore. As far as it not being rocket science, lets have some fun with that. Find and present a valid comparison for the computing power in one of todays alternate technology vehicles as compared to vehicles such as Apollo and the Space Shuttle. I call these cars robots in the driveway for a reason, and BTW it's techs like myself that are training and equipping ourselves to deal with these "cars". Again if you arent trying to do that, then your in for a big surprise when you find out what it really demands these days, and what its going to demand in the near future.
Scalding...of all the things that an oil change kid has to learn, that one requires enough common sense that those same brain cells should already be exercised when he wipes his butt in the morning so should be well prepped for a day of oil changes.
As high tech as the job is, minor injuries such as that are an everyday occurrance. The time spent trying to protect yourself will have you failing to be productive enough and you would be on the street in short order no matter how much you know (or don't). Remember, your job security is only one customers complaint away if you make them late for work because you took too long to change their oil.
But hey, this thread is a mechanics life. Your post makes yet another great example of just how people try and dumb it down because they just can't stomach the idea that it might be well beyond them to be able to be a good tech today.
Had to cancel my appointment to have my 2007 Kia Optima looked at a week or so ago. Just a few days ago, while driving the car, I recalled the comment you made about trying the cruise control (second car,don't drive it much). I put it on cruise control on flat part of expressway, sure enough the symptoms disappeared. I tried the same thing at 40mph...runs smooth as whipped butter. No increase or decrease in rpm' s as if the car is processed.
Without recalling your other comments, my initial thought was that this confirmed my guess that it was the throttle position sensor. My thinking was the cruise control would take the throttle position sensor out of the equation.. as the c.c had control of throttle input. Why is this not the case? :confuse:
Also, what does APP stand for that you think it may need to be looked at?
You make it sound like I am an ex mechanic. Not so. I became my own mechanic out of pure necessity and especially when I realized I could do better than the guy I was paying more than 3 times my wage at the time, to strip the plastic threads out of a taillight bezel. This IDIOT didn't know how to start a wood screw type thread into a plastic bezel!!!! For those that don't know or who are curious, you turn the screw counterclockwise about half a turn with a slight amt of pressure until you feel the screw fall into the next thread..then you can thread clockwise knowing you aren't cutting off the old threads. Plus there was some other stuff too...mech who talked DOWN to me like I couldn't possibly do their job. I got damn tired of it. Need I remind you of the self-righteous idiot who crushed the floor in my Camry? How many examples do ya want?
I think you forget that I have defended you at times. I am no frig idiot and for you to suggest I don't have what it takes, is shallow thinking and dang near sighted. I can do ANY DAMN THING I DAMN WELL WANT OR TRY OR EDUCATE MYSELF TO DO! So far anyway...now I body health restrictions so now am learning my limitations. But don't you talk down to me mister!