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I fell off my chair laughing at the last 3 posts.......at least I am got some good entertainment value tonight.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
In my business we have 15 employees. I could never imagine any of them would be dishonest. We had suspicions about one and we had a detective set up a small camera. We caught her taking money out of the till, and she was let go.
I still can't imagine the other 14 would be dishonest. You just never know though, and you have to trust at some point. Just saying, I understand why you believe only 1% of the people you teach could be dishonest. I just think you don't really know, dishonesty by it's nature is not easy to detect.
I do agree, people who care enough, are passionate about what they do, who strive to do the best work possible and take pride in doing their work well are not likely to be dishonest.
I agree, if a person does good work they should be paid accordingly. I'd rather pay more for a better product, I also gladly pay more for good service and for good work.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Murder?
As noted earlier, I went in for an oil change on my 2007 Optima a couple weeks ago. Wiper blades were bad, so was going to go ahead and let th em install a new set. Before I could ask, the service advisor suggested a new set. So good there. I knew the air filter was good, as I had just changed. No upsell there. So overall honesty there.
But, on most maintenance items like that, it is mostly the techs opinion on what needs replaced. Wiper blades, air filters, tires... to a certain extent all subjective... and easy targets for the less than honest shops.
Notice the very next response after this one? The attempts to "dumb it down" never end, which goes hand in hand with those who want to feel they are a techs equal in a shop.
Take Shifty's Windstar question. Before I answered as much as I did, were you (any of you) really able to start making a plan about how you would approach such a problem? I didn't go into a lot of depth because first hand observation and fact finding during the discovery and research phases might help narrow down the focus. (operative word "might") I suspect that the current load from some component being turned on/off is causing the shut-down, but that only suggests a starting point for testing, and not what needs to be tested.
To gather as much information as possible, one of the tests that I would run is to pull codes (CMDTC's) from every module on the car. CMDTC's are "Continuous Memory Diagnostic Trouble Codes, which are both seen as hard or confirmed failures, and as historical codes. Just because the PCM cannot complete a given test it does not mean that other modules cannot complete theirs. One of the possibilities here is that another system may not be working correctly in another module and coding there may assist in locating the fault in the PCM's system. Imagine a fuse block issue (or ground issue) if you will that is affecting several circuits, one of which powers up the PCM and one or more of its components, while it also powers up a circuit controlled by another module. By researching sufficiently a common test point may be able to be determined which could allow for the self test to be commanded at the ALDL and then the circuit monitored for the potential voltage drop.
The windstar could also be experiencing a condition another technician has named a "Sneak Circuit" where voltage is falsely fed into a module either from a defective ground connection or an illegal wiring issue. A sneak circuit could be corrupting the data stream at a critical point in the testing. That's why the scope is so important. The voltage rise on the communication circuit would be some of the evidence. There may be no choice but to knock some modules off of the data bus and repeat the testing until the offending module is discovered, and then it and its systems would need to be examined.
The best part about the Windstar right now is that what ever is going on is repeatable during the self test, I suspect something, somewhere on the car is noticeably not operating correctly, the question there is "has the person working on the car observed the system that is not functioning correctly"? Diagnostics require more than one proven cause for a given reported issue whenever possible. That's the only way to keep from replacing a module that isn't defective.
You know, if you really want a "sting" car that Windstar would be a good one. Give anyone who looks at it a half an hour to diagnose the problem, maximum. They don't have to have the final answer, they have to explain what they know about the car, and where they are going with their testing from that point. No guesses are allowed, they must be able to prove their methodology. Half an hour would be plenty of time to have narrowed the focus to a given subsystem. Full diagnostics on this should be completed by an average technician in under two hours. The top techs, and especially the top Ford dealer techs should be in the one hour range or less. For a diagnostic specialist, the total time could be anywhere from fifteen minutes to around an hour depending on familiarity and accessibility with a given vehicle platform.
Murder?
Nah, send them on an all expense paid hunting trip with Dick Cheney.
How often should my tires be balanced?
Every 4,000 to 6,000 miles or any time a tire is replaced
The above is from the Big O tires website. A fairly large tire dealer in this part of the country. This recommendation, while it may not be dishonest, certainly harbours on being unethical, as it is my understanding routine tire balancing is not necessary. This is kind of on the level of dealerships and Indy shops recommending oil changes every 3,000 miles. It's a somewhat legal way of picking a man's pocket. I referenced my Honda dealers recommendation of getting my synthetic oil change every 5,000 miles a few weeks ago... despite oil minder showing I could get over 10k miles. This is why there is very little trust in dealership sales or service.
The main problem as I see it is....why did you choose the British spelling of harbour/harbor over the American?
I know when I took my Jeeps to Fast Lube garages they would over sell everything. They had their own guidebook and oil changes, gas line cleaner, air filters, anti-freeze, had to be done in about half of the time that the manufacturer recommended.
Of course, those places hire people for minimum pay, and teach them to sell, sell, sell. I would say cardoc and serious mechanics, and I have been fortunate to have found a few, really want to repair your car properly and keep you coming back.
Unfortunately, the bad apples are the one's we tend to remember, and once burned we become very cynical.
I took one of my Jeeps to a chain store garage when I had an a/c problem. They said they would have to remove the instrument panel and order new parts, would cost about $1500. Someone recommended a mechanic they used and trusted and he fixed it for $200, no removing the instrument panel.
Cardoc has made me appreciate how much knowledge a good mechanic has to have, and has reminded me there are probably lots of dedicated good hard working mechanics out there. I don't have great luck in these matters though, so I'll still try to drive cars that have a warranty if I can.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Every 4,000 to 6,000 miles or any time a tire is replaced
The above is from the Big O tires website.
With today's lower profile tires the balance of the tire/wheel assembly doesn't change as much as they used to through out the life of the tire, but it does still change. Depending on how much high speed driving and how little highway vibration someone desires, a rebalance one or two times during the life of the tire is desireable. Doing it every 4000-6000 miles is not likely to create a noticeable benefit, but it would have someone looking at your brakes a lot more often which is probably the real goal.
This is kind of on the level of dealerships and Indy shops recommending oil changes every 3,000 miles
Do you realize that as much as we have cars that can go 10K or more, there are still many people who's driving habits don't allow for them to go 3000 miles in between services? (maybe as little as 1500-2000 miles)
Why do I have the feeling that you were given an estimate to replace the evaporator core because it was leaking, and instead of doing that someone chose to put a sealer into your system?
Sometimes, sealers do work , but they have a downside. They can damage our shop equipment during a subsequent repair. On top of that they will cause a lot of the parts warranties to be voided by the suppliers. In short once a sealant is used, we have no choice but to turn your car away for a future repair..
Cardoc has made me appreciate how much knowledge a good mechanic has to have, and has reminded me there are probably lots of dedicated good hard working mechanics out there. I don't have great luck in these matters though, so I'll still try to drive cars that have a warranty if I can
FYI...Those will need repairs too and the problem is until we get rid of all of the nonsense that techs have to deal with, there is no reason to expect us to start attracting the people that you need us to have in this trade. SAE just released a comprehensive study and they condemned the O.E's for the terribly low labor times that get used to pay the techs for given jobs while the cars are under warranty.
Hmmm, that is odd. I do have a large amount of English ancestry in my bloodline. Maybe when shifty was channeling spirits thru his crystal ball, he unleashed something he couldn't control... and now I am possessed by one of my long dead English ancestors.. :mad:
Seriously though, I am English, it just popped in my head to spell it that way.
Upselling doesn't bother me personally because I usually keep pretty good tabs on what my car needs. I think cardoc has forgotten, after all those years as a tech, what's it like to be on the other side of the counter. That is putting your trust and hard earned money into the hands of a stranger. That's the ultimate consumer fear, not paying too much, but paying for something that wasn't needed.
And to address a previous comment,I take whatever info I get in these forums with a grain of salt. If I have a car problem, I want to get a good idea of what I may be dealing with, and the cost, before I take the car to my dealership. That means Google, asking questions here, and then going from there.
Short trips where the engine never gets up to full operating temperature cause a serious build-up of crankcase acids which will destroy the oil as soon as the additives can no longer control them.
Which of these is blatantly dishonest behavior for a mechanic?
1. upsell---selling the unnecessary but it will improve the car no doubt.
2. covering your butt---you don't really need new hoses and belts, but as long as I've replaced this pain of a water pump, I'm going to put in new hoses and belts so that the car doesn't come back on me.
3. (this one is obvious)----charging for a part that is not replaced
4. incompetence -- making lots of wrong guesses and pretending the car needed it anyway--hey, I'm only human, I tried. Why should I be stuck with the part?
5. crime of opportunity--normally an honest shop but we prepared the guy for a transmission overhaul and then I found this blown fuse and everything works great now. Do I charge him $3 for the fuse or .....???
6. EGO -- I am the master. You must let me fix the car my way, or I won't touch it. This requires that I clean and paint every part, I always use new bolts and clamps and washers, I only use the brand of parts of my choosing (you have no say in this), I won't try additives, I won't turn rotors, I won't weld anything, I won't patch anything, and I am very expensive because I am a meticulous genius.
I have a "Zukerburg" idea if you are interested. You see we have this app or something - and people go to a garage to have their car fixed, and you can hear what is going on. And, then you can advise the civilian on whether he is being ripped off. Seriously, us ordinary civilians need someone like you to explain these things to us when we go to a garage.
In this case I went with the cheaper repair. And then I traded the car in shortly after (not knowing I had a temporary fix), but, I may have gone with the more expensive garage if I had known all the facts...though at that time in my life saving $1800 was a lot more important.
low labor times that get used to pay the techs for given jobs while the cars are under warranty.
Do mechanics make less on warranty work? Also, isn't there something about manufacturers not making information available to independent garages so they can get all the repair business?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
It seems to me (I am trying to be careful, since there are more knowledgeable people around here) that changing oil at 3000 miles would be very unsusual...heavy towing, driving in extreme heat and/or dust and short trips.
But, garages tell you or put a sticker on your window telling you to get an oil change after 3000 miles and they have no idea what kind of driving conditions you have driven under.
That's what I think is dishonest (to put it nicely).
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Dishonest is a bit of a mushy term, but I think the dishonest one knows when he is pushing the envelope.
Some things do make sense. If one repair is being made and hoses say look a little frayed it may actually cost less to install new ones at that time. Some parts are pretty cheap, but the labor involved to dismantle and get at that part again later may be very costly.
Those are judgement calls. I think, just my opinion, but an honest mechanic would say, you don't need to replace this hose when I am doing work on your rad, but I would recommend it be done for these reasons....... your choice.
#5 for example....the mechanic should know what the honest thing to do would be. I could see adding a bit because his superior knowledge possibly saved a lot, if most garages wouldn't have found it. I think that is worth it to me....charge for, diagnostic information (and years of training).
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The answer is, 3 of course and 4.
The rest of them are attempting to only look at a snapshot for a given event and will not have a perfect answer without all of the details.
#6 Becomes an expectation for the owners of high end cars. (Bentley, Rolls, etc) Not doing it that way would be very suspect, if not foolish.
The big problem with #6 is how many assemblies use TTY bolts today. (They aren't just for heads anymore). Someone reads your questions and then they try and associate them to a job being done on their car and now you have incorrectly lead them to be concerned about a particular job, and tech.
#5 Fuses fail, sometimes on their own, but most of the time because they served their intended purpose. Your conditions try and set some arbitrary limit as to what the right answer has to be. This one only requires good communication of the facts as each discovery is made. A discovery might be that the fuse gets replaced and everything is fine for a week, or maybe even a month and then it blows again.
#1, Upsell only for the sake of selling to me is wrong. Keeping the customer informed about future expectations is a mandatory part of the job. Why was underselling overlooked in your list? Ignoring bad hoses and setting the customer up for a bigger failure that could include a tow or a major engine failure should be on the list as well.
#2. It's not a CYA, its give the customer the chance to take advantage of overlapping operations. In ortherwords, save them money. It doesn't take me one second longer to re-install a new belt when I'm doing a water pump than it does to put the old belt back on. It would be improper to not suggest that they consider the potential savings if appropriate.
Again it all comes down to communication.
During the 1325miles we did tow our trailer (4000lbs loaded, the truck has a 9600lb tow rating) about 500miles and just regular use otherwise.
Here's the question:
When I reset the oil life indicator on the latest change, it showed 54% remaining. I'm having trouble figuring out why it was showing so low. If it is a "dumb" indicator/mileage counter, we were nowhere near 46% of the recommended change interval (5000 miles). If it is a more complex algorithm to calculate the oil life, did the towing really wear it down that much?
Ideas?
Thanks.
Blatant and dishonest , asked the way you asked it, are basically a form of redundancy, IMO.
Your question has a lot of potentially vague interpretations due to the use of the word 'blatant'.
But in my world:
3 - obvious
4 - also obvious
5 - also just as obvious
Assuming the oil life indicator is accurate and not faulty, then the short answer is yes.
So many variables here I don't know where to start..
I guess being a 1/2 ton we know it's a gas job..
Here is what we don't know..
- engine size...I am not familiar with whether or not the small V8 will tow 9600lb with appropriate gearing - I do assume it is not the V6 of course
- emission controls and are they functioning correctly?
- does the engine use oil...how much 1/4 litre per 1000 mi not really a caution flag given your towing 2 tons. Actually, on a 500 mi trip of 2 ton towing, even 500 ml wouldn't be outta line (edit - on second thought, ya, even that would be excessive unless we know the engine uses oil at a greater than avg for its age, rate), but again...variables, like..
- was it hilly terrain? or even mountainous?
- temps? - unseasonal even?
- coolant system up to snuff both in ratio to water and life? - buggy or many stone damaged rad?
- assuming the SAE grade and specs are correct for your truck?
All of these things (and more) can contribute to premature oil degradation. I'm inclined to say the life indicator is probably not lying.
Fixed it for ya, shiftright...
RE: The neurotic genius mechanic----I prefer -- "psychotic, but in a good way"
Yes, that is certainly the kinder of the two.. :shades:
edit- re "inexcusable" - so again...interpretation right? To me dishonesty and inexcusable are interchangeable in this context, so still a form of redundancy.
But I know what ya meant..just sayin' cuz replies...some anyway..might be all over the place...although anticipated replies here with the regulars, are probably all gonna be much the same..I hope anyway..
edit - it was interesting to see doc's (predictable) cover-his-butt replies on 2 and 5.
Just send them on a Carnival Cruise. That way, you can get rid of them by the hundreds...-And, as a side benefit, they can gain some experience in engine, electrical and plumbing repair while on the cruise.
P1150 -- list, 20%, starboard. Check for leaks.
Shedding light on the cost of headlamp repairs
Norman Kinsman's eyes lit up when he saw how much it cost to change a headlight bulb.
"I took my 2007 Saturn Aura to my regular mechanic in Stoney Creek and asked him to change a burned-out headlamp," Kinsman told Action Line. "He said he did not want to break anything. He said he could not see how to get at the bulb. It states in the owner's manual that you should go to the General Motors dealer. The dealer told me it was a two-hour job, because the front of the vehicle has to be removed. I was in the car business for 25 years and never heard of anything like this."
So Kinsman went to Queenston Chevrolet on Centennial Parkway. The bill to change the bulb was $127.80.
In an effort to shine some light on this case, we contacted Mike Tipert, fixed operations manager for Queenston Chevrolet.
"The flat rate to change the headlamp bulb on a Malibu or Saturn Aura is one hour for one side or 1.4 hours to do both. We know the difficulty and quoted the customer accordingly. On the attached work order the description written by the adviser is 'replace burnt out low beam, $75 plus tax.' Our flat fee is $75 to do the bulbs on these two types of cars."
He told us his customer was made aware of the charge before the work proceeded.
"His regular garage knows the amount of work required and that is why they did not take on the repair themselves," Tipert noted. "In his own comment in the email, the customer also stated that it actually took 2.5 hours to have the bulb changed. The front bumper cover needs to be removed to access the headlight bulbs."
A spokesperson for GM Canada confirmed changing the headlight bulb is not as simple as older consumers might recall. Decades ago, bulbs were cheap and most owners could easily change them.
"Due to the design of the vehicle (the Saturn), it is necessary to remove the front bumper fascia in order to access the headlamp assembly to change the bulb," GM corporate communications manager Adria MacKenzie told us. "There are many factors which influence the design and location of any particular item or component. Quite often, the final design and specification of a particular part must necessarily be a compromise between function, practicality and appearance, while at the same time, keeping all safety aspects in mind."
Kinsman is fortunate he doesn't own a 2003-2007 Cadillac CTS.
While the labour costs are similar, the Xenon bulbs are $293 each.
All vehicles are built differently. The cost to repair or replace any particular part can vary greatly.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Not sure that I'd want to do in on my wife's Mazda CX-7 with Xenons.
-5.4 liter V8 with tow package (bigger rad, transmission cooler).
-no noticeable oil consumption and using spec'd 5w20 oil.
-completely stock truck.
-some hills in western canada, but no long mountain passes.
-outside temperature from 40-65F (5C- 20C as a high)
-coolant replaced during maintenance and highest temp noted was 212F at the top of a winding hill.
-highest transmission fluid temp at 195F at the top of the same hill.
Scanguage II data.
I guess the Aura is designed different from an Ion. Having to remove a bumper to get to a headlight is a real case of bad design IMHO.
Aura above...Ion below.
I tried to tighten the one piece faucet for the kitchen sink yesterday. Had to clear everything out from underneath. Had to try to maneuvre plyers to get up and behind the sink, and with my back half on the floor half inside the cupboard try to turn the bolt thing. You would think they could make it so the bolt would be easy to get to.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Thanks for the heads up....those lights sure are perdy though when they are lit up.
Here is a guy whose BMW has run away on it's own twice now. He caught it on a surveilance camera. BMW says there is nothing wrong with the car, he should use the parking break as it may be sliding on the ice.
BMW rolls away - twice
What does the amazing Carnac say is wrong with this car?
Cardoc, any ideas?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I didn't have a special wrench. Now that you mention it though, one that goes straight up and just fits over the bolt would be easier.
I did it with a picer type wrench...I am not much at handy work, but I was able to tighten the bolt.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
That sounds plausable to me. I wanted the paranormal guy to solve the problem though........
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Every 4,000 to 6,000 miles or any time a tire is replaced ... says Big O Tires.
I did an undercover sting operation at Big O Tires yesterday. Working out details with Edmunds on a book. Basically their tire rotation and balance recommendation is promoted with a life rotation and balance service, which is $150. Service guy spoke at length on benefits of this service. I declined.
Tires have the green nitrogen caps. He said he thought benefits were bull, till he researched nitrogen. Now he highly recommends, less moisture in tires.
So outsell big, but no pressure. Did get an alignment for $69 as inside of tires showing abnormal wear.
Edited: Never heard of this... a 90 day guarantee on alignment? A one year guarantee would have been like 20 bucks more.
It seems to me that the "payoff" for frequent tire rotation is not exceeded tire life but rather EVEN tire wear on all 4 tires, so that you don't end up replacing 2 of them in the spring and two in the fall.
So basically that $150 bucks might only prove worth it if you had an AWD vehicle, wherein it's not recommended to put on only two new tires (unless all 4 tires are within 1/4" in circumference).
I used to rotate my MINI tires every 7500 mile service but after I noticed that it made no difference in tire life (which generally sucks anyway on a MINI running performance tires) I gave it up.
150.00 for a "lifetime" rotation and rebalance job!
I have NEVER, EVER had the need to rebalance any of my tires after their initial balance.
Heck, when we were young and broke, we didn't even know what a wheel balance was!
We did wonder why our Vibrasonic units would rumble when the cars started
shaking at freeway speeds!
Hmmm, didn't know that. Car and tires only have 22k miles. Those big suv tires are pretty expensive. So thought I could get an extra 30k miles by alignment... and they did rotate and balance as well.
The service advisor did mention new tires, and how expensive they would be. Originally talked about engine weight on front end causing wear on inside of tire.
Which I've never heard of. That and his high recommendation on nitrogen in tires have me raising a couple eyebrows.
Of course, FWD cars will wear out front tires faster than rear (duh) but otherwise, if you have abnormal wear on the tires you should be able to "read" that wear and come up with some rational conclusions, one of which is NOT "engine weight".
That is just what I call "pseudo-science", which is rampant in the alternative health industry, for instance. You take a basically logical principle, like "engines weigh a lot" and then apply them in an illogical way---"heavy engines wear tires abnormally". :P
Regarding alignment of worn tires--if you have, say, excessive wear from toe-in or toe-out way out of spec, that *might* screw up alignment because we don't have equal tire depth side to side.
Probably the biggest issue with aligning worn tires is verifying the alignment. The machine can insist that alignment is dead-on to specification, but the car would still pull on a road test. So then what to you do? Mis-align the car so that it tracks straight?
Definitely more upsell with Big O than dealership...also asked me about needing oil change. Made me a tad uncomfortable. But, Big O was just down the street. Going on a long trip tomorrow to Gatlingburg.About $20 less. Probably stick with dealership next time.
Took it out on expressway. It's a lot better, though still some steering wheel vibration starting at 70mph, and more noticeable at 80mph, where you can see noticeabl e vibration in steering wheel. They said they would rebalance,test drive, then put tires back to where they were originally if rebalance didn't work. The service advisor just scratched his head when I told him your theory shifty.
Ya think? To be honest, given you own admission of the lack of mechanical prowess that you mentioned on another Edmunds forum, I’m surprised you even tried to tackle this job. :confuse:
I did it with a picer type wrench...I am not much at handy work, but I was able to tighten the bolt.
You can’t rely on the old tricks used by shade tree mechanics anymore. A hammer and a pair of vice grips just ain’t gonna cut it today. :sick:
Your ole poster buddy from the other forum,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
150.00 for a "lifetime" rotation and rebalance job!
I have NEVER, EVER had the need to rebalance any of my tires after their initial balance.
I paid $9.50 a tire for lifetime balancing and rotation at the Firestone store when I bought Bridgestone Serenities for the Genny in April 2013. I thought that was a fair price so I got the lifetime vs. the regular which was $7.50 for each tire. At that price difference the only way it would make sense not to get the lifetime thingy is if you’re planning on trading the car or selling it soon.
Another thing I bit on was a lifetime alignment when I got the first set of Serenities in April 2010 in addition to the lifetime balance and rotation on the first set of tires. The regular price for the lifetime alignment was $140 and they happened to have a special at the time for $110. I was going to get the lifetime alignment anyway so the $30 savings was gravy. If you want, you could look at that savings as a way of paying for lifetime balancing and rotation for 3 tires and have enough left over for a cheap coffee.
Fast forward to April of this year when I had to replace the first set of Serenities that were put on in April 2010. They were almost gone with around 31K miles (tread wear warranty was 40K miles). Since I had the tires balanced and the car aligned twice a year since April 2010, the store manager had no problem giving me an early adjustment on those tires. They were not quite down to the wear bars, which if I had to guess, would have been in another 3 to 4K miles. If I didn’t do both of those services I’m sure they would have found a way to weasel out of making an adjustment for the tires wearing out early.
I don’t usually buy insurance type things for cars but I’m not one bit sorry I opted for either of those tire related lifetime services.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl