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Comments
I heard he had only 46 hours with a 777, and that he was not just a little slow, but really slow...it's a wonder one of the other 2 in the cockpit didn't speak up in time..
Even a navigator would see that his speed was slow at x elevation and give the newb a head's-up..
Not unlike on our roads, it's a wonder that there are as few incidents as there are when you consider all the potentials.
I've still never been up in a jet, altho have been in a small plane a few times and a helicopter once. I sure hope my first jet flight goes without a hitch. To be perfectly honest, and perhaps born out of nothing but ignorance, but I do consider a small plane that has been properly maintained and piloted, a safer air bet than the big boys.
Well, I certainly hope that the passengers and news media don't start berating the crew and/or playing "Gotcha!" After all, the kids that the trade needs are going to still have to make the same mistakes, and we don't have a choice but to support them as they learn. Good people feel bad enough already when something goes south on them, they don't need some parsimonious prick piling on.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
In the 777 case, the other pilots and navigators, not being brash and assertive North Americans (I assume), were hesitant to speak up, if you believe Malcolm Gladwell's theory, which a lot of people don't. (WSJ).
Not being brash and assertive isn't an issue around here at least....
Get off your high horse; be grateful and just accept the fact that you provided a learning experience for a good tech...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
My roll of duck tape got me home okay.
Now really, don't you think the basic, raw survival instincts in any human being override politeness towards a superior?
I can't really imagine someone in an auto repair shop in Asia watching his superior lower a hydraulic lift down on another human being and remaining quietly deferential. :shades:
You beat me to it..
Just heard on Fox News that there were total of 4 pilots in the cockpit at that time of landing. IIRC if the minimum airspeed is 137 knots, the plane was at 109 and lower according to a plane tracking site that uses GPS data to determine speed.
That points out that new pilots to a machine need careful watching despite years of experience on other platforms in the shop under their belts.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
One network of the over-the-air national TV media did about 8-11 minutes in 4 stories about the 777 last evening at 6:30 pm. They did more research on this plane and flight than they did on all of the recent scandals in the government. Odd, isn't it, about the external motivations.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
>That's the real "bone sticking in your craw", isn't it?
Many times during this months of often complaining about the external circumstances of being a mechanic and of running your own shop, I've made the comparison with my wife's experiences in teaching. Everyone feels since they once were a kid or because they have beget kids that they know how the teaching profession should operate in the classroom. Very often those simpletons end up on a school board where they love that they can tell someone else how to do things.
Sometimes you just have to take what you get as the parameters for your job. Can't change all those external forces. That especially applies to auto repair. I have a story to tell but I'll save it for later. I'm having too much fun watching this topic and working on my Buick to find a miss.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Remember Baby Jessica (McClure) back in 1987, who got stuck for 56(?) hours in an 8 inch well casing? And how many hours of media coverage was devoted to it?
Let us know how you make out, especially since you probably don't have all/any of the "professional" tools, including:
- $20K Scanner, with up to date software
- Picoscope with low current and high voltage probes
- CAN bus protocol analyzer
- Smoke generator
- Acoustic probe
- Pressure transducer attachment for the Picoscope
- $20K Scanner, with up to date software
- Picoscope with low current and high voltage probes
- CAN bus protocol analyzer
- Smoke generator
- Acoustic probe
- Pressure transducer attachment for the Picoscope
And on top of that you are taking food out of some poor tech's mouth...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
This kind of name calling totally turns me off in this forum. "Bully," "parsimonious prick" (is Roadburner stingy?), etc., is a continuing negative tone.
The putting up of challenges to show that others wouldn't be able to solve that particular vehicle's problems also is the wrong tone. I ignored the last one posed about the Tribute.
I'm sure Roadburner can cite situations in his work that none of us could resolve. I can give many situations of my own and I know my wife's 30.5 years is full of examples that most here would not have been able to handle professionally in the educational world.
I think we can discuss without the negative tones.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Remember that?
It was unclear if the pilot's inexperience with the aircraft and airport played a role in Saturday's crash
The captain was "only the last slice of cheese" and with all of the rest of the holes lined up the result is a tragedy that should have been prevented by the system at multiple points. I can't imagine the pain that the families of the kids who were lost are feeling right now. The pilots also have to be devasted over this, I know I would be.
FWIW. I've got 50+ hours in the air but had to stop short of getting my license when things tightened up in 09. Someday I hope to get started again. I only needed my 100 milers and to take my final test back then but now I'll have to go almost back to the begining.
historical facts vs. gossip and innuendo in other words. Both are appealing, but hard news always plays better.
But SURE, media always points the camera at the flames and carnage. It looks great on TV.
Same with "exposes" on auto repair. you don't often see a segment on an honest repair shop, and when you see a segment on a "scandalous" auto repair shop, it's usually a botched investigation anyway.
Media is a business that attempts to attract YOU, the audience, with whatever bait they can conjure up, and then SELLS you to another corporation.
That's really all you have to know about American media, IMHO.
I know this is a car forum, but I'd add that tendency crosses into just about every form of service business. Some of it is intentional, some unintentional... But at the end of the day, what really matters to the end-consumer is that he sees himself getting screwed. His $$$ are gone.
He could care less if its incompetent management or an unscrupulous tech/manager/salesperson/etc.
I have a good friend that's the head of the Pulmonary staff at a local hospital group. If he asked me how to resolve someone's heart/lung issues, he could easily tell me the same thing. And, he'd be 100 % correct... I wouldn't know where to start.
That's why I use a trusted mechanic to repair my vehicles, and I use a trusted MD to handle my health issues.
Does anyone really think a MD (because he has advanced education/training) should also make an advanced auto mechanic, just because he drives a car and makes minor repairs on it?
How well would the best auto mechanic do flying a 777 or performing heart surgery?
The entire line of reasoning makes absolutely no sense to me.... I've seen very few posters here make any claims to being auto repair "experts".
So where were you when someone had to use words like idiot, moron, ham handed? Or is it OK use them as long as they are aimed at techs?
Feel free to direct posts to the users of those terms and discuss the context.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
How well would the best auto mechanic do flying a 777 or performing heart surgery
If instead of choosing to be a mechanic that person had chosen to enter one of those fields how good do you think he/she might have been?
Does anyone really think a MD (because he has advanced education/training) should also make an advanced auto mechanic, just because he drives a car and makes minor repairs on it?
Is it training that makes the doctor (or the mechanic) as capable as he/she can become? Or is it the experience that they gain through their careers that makes the most difference? Or wait does it take both experience, plus training on top of possessing some natural talents from which to build on that is required to really be the best that either the doctor or the mechanic can be?
I have a good friend that's the head of the Pulmonary staff at a local hospital group. If he asked me how to resolve someone's heart/lung issues, he could easily tell me the same thing. And, he'd be 100 % correct... I wouldn't know where to start.
Of course none of us would, but what's the point? Is this a mechanics forum or a heart surgeons one? Is there a forum for heart surgeons that people can get onto and call one of the doctor's colleagues an idiot and boast how they had to fix that other surgeons screw-ups?
The entire line of reasoning makes absolutely no sense to me.... I've seen very few posters here make any claims to being auto repair "experts".
Not lately, especially after getting some insight as to what it takes to be a top tech today.
I keep getting the sense that cardoc wants this profession to be held in the same esteem with neurosurgeons and heart doctors and so on. It ain't gonna happen because the people in this business are not the same as professionals who have studied for years and years before they start "practicing" on someone's BMW oil cap or they analyze the data results to determine what renal care is needed.
Let me assure you the youths thinking of becoming top notch mechanics aren't the same as the youths studying to become top flight doctors. I see many of the second group each time I visit my son's campus at OSU which has a great medical center on it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
dealer mechanics
indys
chain store mechanics
fleet mechanics
diesel mechanics
I'd tend to rank A&P mechanics higher than the above grouping, since they have to earn ratings and have FAA oversight. In that group, I suppose the guys rated for commercial jets look down their noses at the mechanics with single ratings working on old Cessna magnetos.
I thought you meant the grocery store, A&P. :sick:
What's A&P?
I'd suggest adding the quickie lube places as a separate category. I see them differently than Pepboys and Walmart mechanics.
Quick lube service
dealer mechanics
indys
chain store mechanics
fleet mechanics
diesel mechanics
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
We could break down the categories a lot.
Like diesel mechanics - do the Caterpillar jockeys snub the school bus fleet mechanics?
And if you work fleet, is it more status to work for UPS than your local cop shop?
For example, he has an immaculate E30 M3 track toy with a Conforti chip that allow you to select four different ignition/fueling maps(the maps are changed by grounding different pins on the EPROM). He installed a rotary switch from an Airbus in the dash complete with different color LEDs to indicate which map was selected.
When he bought the car back in the early '90s he kept hearing a popping noise from under the hood when the car hit a bump. He searched and searched and couldn't find the source of the noise. He finally had his wife drive him around the neighborhood while he sat on the engine. The problem turned out to be a spot on the firewall that was "oil-canning" because a Bavarian elf missed a spot weld. The fixed it and was finally able to sleep again... :P
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I can identify with that guy.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Me too; people like us are in the minority these days...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
"I have a good friend that's the head of the Pulmonary staff at a local hospital group. If he asked me how to resolve someone's heart/lung issues, he could easily tell me the same thing. And, he'd be 100 % correct... I wouldn't know where to start. "
Of course none of us would, but what's the point? Is this a mechanics forum or a heart surgeons one? Is there a forum for heart surgeons that people can get onto and call one of the doctor's colleagues an idiot and boast how they had to fix that other surgeons screw-ups?
What's the point?
All I did was use your logic. Your attempt to show superiority over others by issuing a challenge to solve a problem that you are qualified to solve, but no other poster has the background to solve.
And, you should be glad no one else took up your challenge, or you wouldn't be needed.
Funny how you don't seem to see that, but every other poster has no problem figuring it out.
You can sing the "my field is different from all others and somehow unique and special" tune till the cows come home, but at the end of the day, it isn't much different than what the rest of the world deals with on a daily basis...
Me too; people like us are in the minority these days...
You can add me to the list as well.
In how people respond to poor service, it is exactly the same. Human nature what it is, whether your job is auto mechanic, doctor, airline pilot, plumber, or Edmunds host... you screw up to where you cost people money or time, you're going to be labeled incompetent. That's the way it is.
What about the shadetree mechanic? Guys like shifty AND roadburner gotta rate out higher than the guy at Jiffy Lube. :confuse:
Exactly!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
All the passengers on tat plane were from Greenville, SC, where I live, but I didn't know any of them. However, my wife knew the doctor on the plane... A radiologist, if I recall correctly.
Overall, I tend to agree, but I personally try to not paint with too broad a brush.
If I'm having a problem that I can demonstrate/duplicate in from of the S/A, repairman, plumber, etc. and it doesn't get fixed, I tend to get a bit frustrated with the service (not) being provided.
OTOH, if the problem is intermittent, I'm a bit more understanding and thoughtful about the whole thing. After all, its difficult to fix something that doesn't appear to be broken.
Still, I've heard numerous complaints over my years, something to the effect... "I took it in to the shop, but of course it was working fine at the time, so they couldn't duplicate the problem, nor fix it. But just as soon as I got it back, it did the same thing..."
I've had some of those myself over the years, and I've learned to document the problem as much as possible so I can pass that info to the repairman when "round 2" starts. Sometimes things just don't stay broken enough to fix for a while, and it takes multiple visits to get it all working correctly.
As an example, I've had 1 of those since I bought my 09 Toyota Tacoma P/U. Once in a blue moon, the radio will simply turn itself "off", usually on really hot days. Of course, it turns back on as it should when you hit the power "on" button. It may do it 4-5 times within 5 minutes or so, then work correctly for 6+ months. There are lots of complaints like mine on several Tacoma forums...
The dealership replaced the radio under warranty, but the radio still exhibits the same behavior. I thought by now it would have died, but I've come around to thinking this is just how its going to be forever. I don't worry about it anymore, because its such a minor, minor inconvenience.
I save my worrying for larger issues now...
The WSJ has ~7 stories about Flight 214 right now, including live updates. Zilch on the ten dead in Soldotna. Figures. :sick:
Bush pilots in Alaska had a different way of "consumer advocacy"--if an airplane mechanic screwed up, and the pilot survived, he'd come back and try to shoot him. :P
But yeah, I had two boating friend die flying up there; never known anyone who died on a jet, nor does my sister, who worked as a flight attendant for UAL for ~30 years.
All the carnage on the highways should really be the front page story every day.
Agreed. Intermittent issues are the bane of a tech's existence; I've had a couple that drove me up the wall.
Still, I've heard numerous complaints over my years, something to the effect... "I took it in to the shop, but of course it was working fine at the time, so they couldn't duplicate the problem, nor fix it. But just as soon as I got it back, it did the same thing..."
This is happening over on one of the Focus ST forums(the ST I was looking at sold, BTW). European drivers don't speed-shift like their US counterparts and it seems that the cars will make a huge "bang" do to engine movement when shifted aggressively. Ford-to its credit-has issued a TSB to address the problem that involves replacing a couple of the motor mounts, a clutch line, ETC.
It is interesting to read how individual Ford dealers are handling the issue. It ranges from dealers who when asked about the TSB simply order the parts and schedule an appointment to install them to dealers who say the noise is an "attribute of a performance car" and actually deny any knowledge of the TSB.
Some dealers are getting unwarranted criticism for following the TSB procedure that calls for verifying the condition before ordering the parts, but all they are doing is what they are supposed to do. That said, some dealers are claiming that they are unable to verify the condition and that is causing some ill feelings- to say the least. A few astute dealers are letting the customer demonstrate the problem with a tech in the car. I did have to laugh at one service advisor who told an owner before the tech drove the car that he thought that the banging was caused by a "computer issue."
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
1. Two days after taking delivery of my new 318ti in November 1995, the SRS light illuminated. The diagnosis was a bad passenger seat belt latch sensor. The dealer reset the light and I never got around to replacing it. The light stayed off until December 2011- once again it was the passenger latch sensor. We reset it again and the light has remained off.
2. About a year after the Mazdaspeed was out of warranty the clock reset itself twice in a two month period. It's never happened since.
3. One night in January 2012 my son noted that the X3's left xenon headlamp was out. I did a little research and found that people were reporting that some dealers were charging upwards of $500 to replace one bulb. I checked the BMW online parts database and determined that the headlamp uses a D2S bulb. I ordered two Philips D2S bulbs(manufactured in Germany, of course) from Amazon for the exorbitant sum of $83.70. Ever since that one occurrence the bulb has never failed to illuminate. I think Murphy's Law has a corollary that states that if you have a replacement part in the trunk or the garage then the OEM part will not fail....
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Are these reports of replacing just the bulb, or are they the replacing the bulb and the ballast?
Two days after taking delivery of my new 318ti in November 1995, the SRS light illuminated. The diagnosis was a bad passenger seat belt latch sensor. The dealer reset the light and I never got around to replacing it. The light stayed off until December 2011- once again it was the passenger latch sensor. We reset it again and the light has remained off.
Stabilant 22........
I can identify with that guy.
I can understand the idea of the approach, but we would be ridiculed and accosted over that stunt.
There is a little flaw with your logic. The Mazda is diagnosed quite easily by a solid understanding of the basics and by taking a disciplined approach. You see the people pulling the superiority crap are the ones who have a problem accepting that the work that techs have to do today is beyond them.
And, you should be glad no one else took up your challenge, or you wouldn't be needed.
Between that comment and the one from one of the other posters its clear you're missing the real point. The trade needs to attract the kids who are heading off to be engineers, (not doctors) but it needs to evolve in order to have something to attract them with. Myself, I'm quite set, if playing the superior card was so important I could outline what it took today to get a 2007 Impala back running after a lightning strike took it out. FYI. That one I'll write into a case study and develop a class on it to help other techs practice how to approach such a problem. The manufacturers cannot write a trouble tree to walk someone through something like that. That diagnostic relies totally on the technician having the training, experience, along with the ability to create and apply a logical approach on the fly. It used to be that problems like that one would be left up to engineers if it was under warranty, or it would get a boatload of parts thrown at it or else scrapped. Today we have to be able to efficiently diagnose and repair that at a technicians level.
So you think the Mazda was about superiority? Quite the opposite actually. It went down just like this. All someone needed was a scan tool a test light, a DVOM wiring schematics and a stethoscope .
Start by setting your DVOM to AC volts, and connect an ordinary test light to battery positive. Start the engine and try to measure the signal from the turbine sensor at the pin in the PCM connector with the DVOM. There was no voltage was found.
So turn the engine off, key back on and remove the left front wheel for access to the sensor location. Pin in at the sensor connector with the test light, reset the voltmeter to DC volts and if the wire is good you'll see the voltage at the PCM. In this case the voltage was present.
Now test the ground circuit, the test light should light up and it didn't. The ground circuit was open. From there all I had to do was isolate the location of the open and repair it.
In addition while the left front tire was off the first step for the erratic speed signal is to inspect the tone ring on the axle shaft, sure enough it was cracked leaving a gap and that causes the calculated speed for that wheel to be erratic.
The misfire didn't need anything to diagnose it beyond first performing the relative compression test which is done from the front seat of the car with the scan tool and that tested OK. Then confirm injector operation during some of the misfiring with a stethoscope. Compression and fuel are good, so it has to be spark. Test the coil with the ST-125 and it was weak. All the car needed for the misfire was one coil, the plugs and plug boots.
Your attempt to show superiority over others by issuing a challenge to solve a problem that you are qualified to solve, but no other poster has the background to solve.
It is true, I don't think the other posters knew how to approach that Mazda, but its not about a superiority. If the Mazda's problems would have been difficult that argument might hold, but they were simple, basic and in fact quite ordinary failures.
Thanks for that eye-rolling moment this morning. I answered her.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Maybe as you see it, but I doubt any other posters would be in agreement with you. That's why I used the doctor analogy, because I doubt there are any licensed doctors currently in this discussion.
There a really big difference between bring able to perform minor repairs that are evident on a vehicle and troubleshooting diagnostic codes, whether its on a car or any other machine, unless one has the proper training and exposure.
AFAIK, there isn't a single poster that has remotely implied your credentials to do so aren't anything short of stellar, but the rest of us are just like me if I was asked to perform a medical diagnosis. Or, troubleshoot codes on a vehicle.
Now, send me to medical school, or provide me with the proper mechanical (and other necessary) training to repair a vehicle, and I'm guessing most of us would do just fine. After all, who would you want to represent you in a murder trial, a seasoned lawyer or seasoned mechanic?
It's all about placing the correct shaped block into the correct shaped hole...
No one is questioning the qualified folks mechanicing out there, its just that there are a lot of unqualified folks doing it, too. And, telling me that I just have to "grin and accept it" while some joker may OR may not ever figure it out is a 100% guaranteed way to run my business off forever.
I would again say the point you've completely refused to acknowledge is that the car repair industry is no different than almost every other service industry, in that staffing, training, and yes, even the existence on crooks and thievery are present.
Just the bulb; while I realized that the ignitor or the control unit might be at fault I figured that it wouldn't hurt to have the bulbs on hand- especially since the Mazdaspeed 3 uses the D2S as well.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive