Get to be normally, but sometimes wake in middle of night. So I listen quietly to my portable radio. ATN is only sane program I can get; most other talk programs on at 2 am (Coast to Coast) are like MSNBC! :sick:
Now you know why I leave my computer on 24/7, although it has been a few months since I've had any insomnia to speak of. My meds did change a while back. :shades:
Doc, I love your solution over in Answers for turning off a seat belt chime.
Does your shop liability insurance specifically address knowingly defeating safety features? I guess they would try to deny coverage if you disabled an airbag or something at the request of an owner (without one of those waivers).
Good answer, Doc. That reminds me of how I WISH I had the guts, when getting ready for take-off on United Airlines, to listen patiently to the flight attendant "demonstrate" the seat belt, and then for me to yell out "OHHHHHH, THAT'S HOW YOU DO IT !! " :P
Does your shop liability insurance specifically address knowingly defeating safety features? I guess they would try to deny coverage if you disabled an airbag or something at the request of an owner (without one of those waivers).
My insurance would cancel me if I disabled warning or safety systems. What good is a waiver if you disable a system (requested or otherwise) and someone ends up getting injured because it wasn't functional some day?
And that leads us here:
srs49
I had to turn off the chime in my 2005 Dakota because it would chime continuously (or every 15 sec of so) even though I had the seat belt fastened. So, contrary to Cardoc3, simply fastening the seat belt does always turn off the warning.
Anyway, I found the two wires in the seat belt harness that went to the seat belt latch switch, cut them, and spliced the two ends together. Voila, no chime.
O.k so basically I hot a drain pipe and I hit it pretty hard. I knocked my front left wheel way back into the wheel well. Luckily there is just about an inch or so of space so its barely drive able. However the inner tread in my tires are wearing out every week, maximum because of how messed up the alignment is. I am trying to figure just exactly what I messed up, and perhaps what it might take to fix it. Is a frame machine an option? I will post several pictures so you can try to locate the problems. Like I said.. the wheel is very far back in the wheel well. I don't have full coverage insurance, and I cant afford a new car. I just bought this one. I have to fix this, its just a matter of how long it will take and what it will take. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. here are the images of the suspension. It should be easy to differentiate the right from the left side. link title
What are the possible results or complications of bypassing the seat belt buckled input for the supplemental restraint system?
I've never had the need to do this, but I am wondering about where Doc is going here.
So, assuming its the driver 's side seat belt, and the driver religiously buckles up 100% of the time, what are the possible complications a change such as this might create?
Assume,,, You do know what assume means don't you?
Is any one person always the driver of each and every car? If the seatbelt warning is eliminated, other than state laws what incentive is there for the driver to actually use the belt? What happens when the car is sold and changes hands? If a shop does a used car safety check and the SRS system has been tricked into not alerting and coding for a fault, who is responsible?
Lets simplify this a bit for the next set of questions by using just one vehicle for the example while keeping in mind this should be repeated for every single model and level of restraint system available.
2010 Ford Escape. How many levels of the driver air bag deployment are there in a fully functional system? How does the system alter its deployment from the previous list if the seatbelt isn't used? What is the primary purpose of the seatbelt, and its pretensioner system? If the seatbelt isn't used, deployment is required and the system falsely interprets that the seatbelt is in use because of the bypassed input, exactly what can happen to the driver?
More questions later, this is just the start and we are only talking about one particular vehicle and just the drivers side front seat. We haven't even begun to talk side airbags etc. This is robotics and just one glimpse into what we have to study today to be service ready.
How does the system alter its deployment from the previous list if the seatbelt isn't used? What is the primary purpose of the seatbelt, and its pretensioner system? If the seatbelt isn't used, deployment is required and the system falsely interprets that the seatbelt is in use because of the bypassed input, exactly what can happen to the driver?
Aren't you muddying the waters here a bit?
Nobody is advocating that anyone not use their seatbelt. We were only talking about an annoying chime that is malfunctioning.
OTOH, if someone doesn't want to use a seatbelt, then the results are just Darwinism at work.
There are some people who can't use seatbelts for medical reasons (or maybe they don't fit even with an extender?). The NHTSA has rules for turning off airbags but mostly what a quick search turned up for disabling seatbelts were ads by shops that install adaptive controls for disabled drivers. Virginia's DMV has a section about a doctor's letter being sufficient to avoid issues with the cops. Didn't see anything about the effectiveness of waivers but there was mention somewhere about insurance not being an issue if you doctor orders the change.
If it's like the case of getting medical permission to tint your front windshield, you are supposed to remove the tint when you sell the car.
Absolutely not. How many would be quick to say, "If you don't know how something works, don't touch it?"
Nobody is advocating that anyone not use their seatbelt. We were only talking about an annoying chime that is malfunctioning.
That is exactly how this conversation started, that poster in answers doesn't have a broken car, he/she doesn't want to use the belt and they no idea what the system's response to not using the belt is. If the warning system is malfunctioning, then the system is malfunctioning and it needs serviced/repaired. Intentionally trying to defeat the system in any manner will increase the potential for unintended consequences. These consequences need to be examined and that's where I'm taking this.
OTOH, if someone doesn't want to use a seatbelt, then the results are just Darwinism at work.
If it was really just darwinism, is that suggesting that no-one should care? However it isn't just darwinism, others will be at risk at some point in time from decisions such as what that original poster wants to make.
When someone tries to bypass a safety system can you see some of the holes in the swiss cheese starting to line up?
The overwhelming majority of the decisions when it comes to allowing an airbag to be disconnected for a medical reason deny the request. It is widely accepted that the person is safer with the system operational than they are otherwise.
Somehow we seem to forget that driving is a priviledge, and with that priviledge comes a significant responsibility to be able to operate the vehicle in a safe manner. Someone who's physical condition makes it unsafe for them to operate a vehicle with all of the correct safeguards in-place very likely shouldn't be driving a vehicle in the first place. The only real reason to disarm the system is if the driver is too small to be safely out of the "punch-out" zone. When the bag deploys, it takes a lot of force to break out of the steering pad and then fully inflate. If you are in that zone you are at a greater risk of significant injury (maybe even death) from the airbag than you might be from some accidents themselves. That's why one of the previous questions is worded as it is. The seatbelts primary job is to pull, the occupant out of the punch-out zone, and make sure that they are restrained in an area that the airbags can do their job. It's a system and every part has to work correctly.
Depends on the passenger. Most new pickups that don't have rear seats big enough to handle a rear-facing child seat have a front passenger airbag off switch.
Depends on the passenger. Most new pickups that don't have rear seats big enough to handle a rear-facing child seat have a front passenger airbag off switch.
That's a completely different scenario. For one there is a warning lamp that is lit that informs the driver and occupant that part of the system is turned off. Secondly the driver has full control and the ability to turn it on or off at will. Passenger presence systems are an automated version where small occupants (generally 70lbs or less) cause the system to deactivate in some cases, or at least deploy at a reduced rate as compared to how they would deploy with a full sized adult.
If the warning system is malfunctioning, then the system is malfunctioning and it needs serviced/repaired
Maybe. Maybe not.
I would never get a TPMS fixed if it started malfunctioning. My hand held gauge works just fine thank you.
Every lawnmower I've owned for tha past 15 years or so have had that dang "turn off the engine when the handle is released" feature. So I've always used a piece of velcro to keep the handle closed, to keep the engine from turning off when I need to pick up a stick from the lawn.
The nanny state is just getting a bit too much to handle.
Well, all I was trying to determine was if there was some sort of electro-mechanical reason not to implement the "fix", not start a discussion on the social benefits and or/detriments caused by such a modification.
As you so often imply in your comments, lets just stick to the facts and let everyone come to their own conclusions, shall we (oil cap, anyone)? Seeing as how you didn't find any operational fault with the modification, it appears the OP will get along just fine with his "fix".
I most certainly not attempting to suggest anyone not use safety belts.
BTW, I am the only driver of my 09 Tacoma, and I have the automatic latching of my safety belt so ingrained in me that I often find myself latching it even if I just sit in the car for some reason, without any intention of starting it, much less driving it. If I made the pre-discussed change in my truck, it would affect only me.
I'm sure you'll want to inject the possibility of what happens after I'm gone, but that's a discussion for another day. Or, a straw-man argument. Your choice...
Somehow we seem to forget that driving is a priviledge, and with that priviledge comes a significant responsibility to be able to operate the vehicle in a safe manner. Someone who's physical condition makes it unsafe for them to operate a vehicle with all of the correct safeguards in-place very likely shouldn't be driving a vehicle in the first place.
Well, I doubt you'll get any argument with that comment.
Personally, I see far more danger from sharing the road with 80+ year olds that can't even see as far as the dashboard, or some joker that can't tell the difference between the accelerator and brake pedals than I do from someone who has a problem fastening his seatbelt.
Don't even get me started on cellphones and texting and driving...
When you can solve those conditions, you'll definitely have my undivided attention.
Seeing as how you didn't find any operational fault with the modification, it appears the OP will get along just fine with his "fix".
What are you talking about? I easily find an operational faults when the seat belt buckled input is tampered with, or if the seatbelt is used incorrectly. As far as turning it off on a 2013 pick-up the OP in answers is clearly looking for a way to not use his seat belt and not be annoyed by it alerting him and that means the nut behind the wheel needs to be addressed.
How this ever morphed to be about "you" is the start of the straw man argument if there is to be one. You are clearly capable of employing darwinistic behavior if you so choose.
What are you talking about? I easily find an operational faults when the seat belt buckled input is tampered with, or if the seatbelt is used incorrectly. As far as turning it off on a 2013 pick-up the OP in answers is clearly looking for a way to not use his seat belt and not be annoyed by it alerting him and that means the nut behind the wheel needs to be addressed.
Well, that was my original question, which you addressed by citing social implications. I wanted to know what specific issues bypassing the safety belt latching mechanism would cause.
What I see around here every 2-3 days on the news is someone killed in the middle of the night, not wearing a seatbelt, and colliding with an immovable object.
Oh, and an exceptionally high number of impaired (DUI) drivers...
IMO, the DUI part trumps the not wearing a seat belt part, from the other motorist POV.
Well, that was my original question, which you addressed by citing social implications. I wanted to know what specific issues bypassing the safety belt latching mechanism would cause.
Clear enough now?
Social implications? If you want to know specifics, then do some research and answer the very clear questions that were in the post that you responded to. Here I'll repeat them for you.
Lets simplify this a bit for the next set of questions by using just one vehicle for the example while keeping in mind this should be repeated for every single model and level of restraint system available.
2010 Ford Escape.
How many levels of the driver air bag deployment are there in a fully functional system?
How does the system alter its deployment from the previous list if the seatbelt isn't used?
What is the primary purpose of the seatbelt, and its pretensioner system? Answered already BTW....
If the seatbelt isn't used, deployment is required and the system falsely interprets that the seatbelt is in use because of the bypassed input, exactly what can happen to the driver?
How many levels of the driver air bag deployment are there in a fully functional system?
What difference does that make in an incident where the seatbelt detection device is hardwired, and the person sitting in the seat is wearing the seatbelt?
How does the system alter its deployment from the previous list if the seatbelt isn't used?
I never even mentioned the seatbelt not being used. My specific question was...
"So, assuming its the driver 's side seat belt, and the driver religiously buckles up 100% of the time, what are the possible complications a change such as this might create?"
What is the primary purpose of the seatbelt, and its pretensioner system? Answered already BTW....
If the seatbelt isn't used, deployment is required and the system falsely interprets that the seatbelt is in use because of the bypassed input, exactly what can happen to the driver?
Irrelevant to the question I asked.
If you don't want to, or can't accurately answer the question, then just say so... It's no big deal. All I was interested in was what systems (and how) would be affected in the scenario I set forth.
In another vein, Cardoc, you might be interested in watching last Friday night's Bill Maher's HBO show. Not the entire show, but the last 15-20 minutes when Mike Rowe, the guy famous from the Dirty Jobs show is on.
He has a very realistic (and entertaining) take on how our society encourages students are educated, as well as how to decide on what field of employment they should enter.
One example he used was a situation in which he was in his high school guidance councilor's office and was shown 2 posters on a wall, one a dirty/greasy mechanic and the other showing a college graduate holding his degree, and the question the guidance councilor asked him was "Which would you rather be?"
He's really got a great outlook on how we educate our kids, and how we train so many for jobs that no longer exists (or never did to begin with).
If you don't want to, or can't accurately answer the question, then just say so... It's no big deal. All I was interested in was what systems (and how) would be affected in the scenario I set forth.
Can't answer your simple question? Really? Sorry I took your question as rhetorical and didn't expect that you really didn't know the answer. Why if the system is bypassed and the driver actually uses the belt it would be expected that the system should function normally.
So now that we have that out of the way, let see how you do answering the questions that I asked which were all about the original topic. Do I need to repeat them again?
one a dirty/greasy mechanic and the other showing a college graduate holding his degree, and the question the guidance councilor asked him was "Which would you rather be?"
Every lawnmower I've owned for tha past 15 years or so have had that dang "turn off the engine when the handle is released" feature. So I've always used a piece of velcro to keep the handle closed, to keep the engine from turning off when I need to pick up a stick from the lawn.
The nanny state is just getting a bit too much to handle.
My commercial ZTR mower is supposed to disengage the blades when both control levers are in their reverse position. Fortunately that "feature" has never worked- and you can bet I never asked my OPE shop to fix it either. In any case, the mower has a "dead man switch" on the seat.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Thanks. You finally got it. The answer was nothing.
Going back to your original question you asked...
What are the possible results or complications of bypassing the seat belt buckled input for the supplemental restraint system?
Instead of insinuating something bad is going to happen, why not simply state your opinion and the related facts? All I was interested in was what unusual/unexpected behavior might be seen if someone rigged the seatbelt to appear latched 100% of the time, yet also ore the seatbelt 100% of the time. It didn't seem like that difficult question for you to answer... At least, it didn't to me.
I certainly can appreciate a mechanic's POV in troubleshooting problems in vehicles that have had systems tampered with or altered. It makes the job more difficult. It's also a fact of life that some people are going to do it, so anyone interested in becoming a mechanic had better adjust, or they need to find a different field to work in.
So now that we have that out of the way, let see how you do answering the questions that I asked which were all about the original topic. Do I need to repeat them again?
We've already had this discussion. Car mechanics aren't my specialty, they're yours. In other words, you're asking a "loaded" question. I don't need to know, but in your profession, you do.
Your point is?
Today's top techs don't fit that stereotype.
I agree, top techs don't fit that stereotype. However, since you seem to feel the need to address the issue, based on many previous postings by you, I simply thought you might be interested in how someone who is familiar enough with the blue-collar work environment that he has testified before Congress on the subject felt about how the public in general views blue-collar work today.
Watch it, or not. I don't really care one way or the other. Again, its your choice.
The real answer is you insist on someone answering your questions no matter how demeaning but arrogantly don't feel the need to live up to that same expectation. You make a very good example of anther reason why it can be difficult to retain technicians. In a dealer world they would have to kiss your [non-permissible content removed] no matter how ignorant you are with them. In mine, I'd hand you your keys and fire you as a customer in a heat beat. You're simply not worth the time, and you would just be a guy with a broken car and someone else's problem.
So I guess we are to presume that the last couple days of your posts are... again.. "pot-stirring" and "forum activity attempt" posts. That was not a question, btw.
You seem to have a problem with everyone, doc. In fact, while I have wondered this before, I will voice it now. I am certain you hate every single person who darkens the doors of your shop, be them potential customers or even the regulars. I suspect that the only reason you are in business is because you appear to be a competent mechanic. If you weren't..then your customers would drop you and your bullying like a hot potato. You like to bully and create waves (by your own admission) and the only reason you get away with it is because some of your customers have no other option but to suck it up if they want their car fixed. I know I once said "but I like the guy". Well, in an ongoing effort to give a person the benefit of doubt, and extend the bookends to understanding all personalities, I realize now that I spoke prematurely.
Ya better be careful, doc, or you and Mr Shiftright's Mechanic's Life forum won't continue to have an audience. Or certainly not the kind you wish you had...you know the kind...the one's who you would like to take you and your profession, seriously..as opposed to the kind who check in and crack the popcorn.. Now that would be demeaning..and a shame.
I am a stand my ground kind of guy anymore. I used to let everything just roll right off my back and the only thing that I ever got for that was stepped on even more. So in effect you are saying when bursis started that garbage, I'm just supposed to take it and be happy for it. What-ever...
Well just ask them and you'll see that they will all tell you that they do, right up to the point that they have to put up or shut up that is.
Other than you using the term "expert" multiple times in your accusations, who else here has made the claim they were a car repair "expert"?
I certainly haven't.
And, just for the record, when I originally asked the question on jury-rigging seat-belts, it was a bona-fide question. I actually wanted to know if performing such an operation would cause unforeseen electro-mechanical problems that might surface elsewhere. That is exactly why I worded it the way I did, being very specific in my question.
The fact that you apparently didn't see it that way, and decided to opine on the value of wearing seat belts (which NO ONE here has disagreed with, BTW) isn't my problem.
One last thing... Usually, most folks see name calling as the last-ditch attempt of someone losing an argument. Even though you and I may have our disagreements, I would find it difficult to start attacking you personally.
I'm sure the newer model is so overly complex it makes a tough job tougher. Not to mention just pulling the darn thing out must make you want to scream.
I am certain you hate every single person who darkens the doors of your shop, be them potential customers or even the regulars.
When he was still alive, my dad was in business with his brother. Two people more opposite never walked the face of this earth.
My dad was pretty much a positive guy, and my uncle never saw anything but the bad side of anyone or anything.
Here's the odd thing about it. If you asked both of them to describe their customers, my uncle would see them all as deadbeat opportunists, and my dad would see them (at least, the vast majority of them) as customers simply wanting to get value for their money.
As time went on, even my uncle arrived at the conclusion he ran off as much "quality" business as my dad was able to bring in, so he relegated himself to the tasks that required little to no customer interaction. He was a very competent and able partner when it came to the products and services they offered, and most customers recognized that fact. They just eventually got to the point they refused to do business with him directly.
FWIW, I didn't take busiris' questions the same way you did. But then I was not looking for someone purposely trying to bait anyone. And upon review, still don't think that was the case.
You are in an uneasy place in time it seems, doc. It seems like you are tired.
I know when you teach that you you feel you have a certain disclosure message to be communicated to the kids, but...and while you might be among the best educator in the details of diagnostics and troubleshooting vehicles, I'm thinking you very much taint the prospects of many a young potential tech (ones who are not nearly as serious a personality) that could be just what the doctor ordered for the car repair future, because you have been in it too long and are too biased against the entire trade and your tiredness and fed-up points-of- view, quickly rise right to the surface, often without any valid reason. In this world, if you look for trouble (no matter how seemingly innocent the scene) you will usually find it.
My advice is to go back to the water/ducks/back. Not because I think you should eat up whatever potential abuse is being served up, but rather..this way when you hear or read something that you take the wrong way, because you are tired and tainted (or for whatever other reason)...you never let on that you took it the wrong way, and then often with a bit more communication after the fact, it is revealed that they were not working an angle at all. Then the tension of a disabling a seat belt ramifications type question, doesn't have to go all side-ways so quickly. Ya see what I mean maybe? I hope? Anyway. Peace.
I wonder if OEM tolerances are more rigid with the newer engine too?
As for re and re'ing, I have never seen under the hood of either. I am curious tho. I'll bet it is a paint-by-numbers routine (and probably more of them on the Boxster) and if you try to take shortcuts or reduce the number of steps and in the order they should be taken, then those shortcut attempts probably reveal themselves sooner in the Boxster than with the 911.
I think the older cars are far more "touchy-feeley" for the mechanic and much more satisfying to rebuilt. With a Boxster, you are basically following instructions on how to R&R a factory short block. It's more about nuts and bolts and wires and plugs than about precision machining.
I suspect it's the difference between taking apart a watch to repair it vs ordering a new movement and slapping on the crystal, case and band.
Comments
Get to be normally, but sometimes wake in middle of night. So I listen quietly to my portable radio. ATN is only sane program I can get; most other talk programs on at 2 am (Coast to Coast) are like MSNBC! :sick:
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Doc, I love your solution over in Answers for turning off a seat belt chime.
Does your shop liability insurance specifically address knowingly defeating safety features? I guess they would try to deny coverage if you disabled an airbag or something at the request of an owner (without one of those waivers).
My insurance would cancel me if I disabled warning or safety systems.
What good is a waiver if you disable a system (requested or otherwise) and someone ends up getting injured because it wasn't functional some day?
And that leads us here:
srs49
I had to turn off the chime in my 2005 Dakota because it would chime continuously (or every 15 sec of so) even though I had the seat belt fastened. So, contrary to Cardoc3, simply fastening the seat belt does always turn off the warning.
Anyway, I found the two wires in the seat belt harness that went to the seat belt latch switch, cut them, and spliced the two ends together. Voila, no chime.
To which I replied....
@srs
What are the possible results or complications of bypassing the seat belt buckled input for the supplemental restraint system?
link title
What are the possible results or complications of bypassing the seat belt buckled input for the supplemental restraint system?
I've never had the need to do this, but I am wondering about where Doc is going here.
So, assuming its the driver 's side seat belt, and the driver religiously buckles up 100% of the time, what are the possible complications a change such as this might create?
Is any one person always the driver of each and every car?
If the seatbelt warning is eliminated, other than state laws what incentive is there for the driver to actually use the belt?
What happens when the car is sold and changes hands?
If a shop does a used car safety check and the SRS system has been tricked into not alerting and coding for a fault, who is responsible?
Lets simplify this a bit for the next set of questions by using just one vehicle for the example while keeping in mind this should be repeated for every single model and level of restraint system available.
2010 Ford Escape.
How many levels of the driver air bag deployment are there in a fully functional system?
How does the system alter its deployment from the previous list if the seatbelt isn't used?
What is the primary purpose of the seatbelt, and its pretensioner system?
If the seatbelt isn't used, deployment is required and the system falsely interprets that the seatbelt is in use because of the bypassed input, exactly what can happen to the driver?
More questions later, this is just the start and we are only talking about one particular vehicle and just the drivers side front seat. We haven't even begun to talk side airbags etc. This is robotics and just one glimpse into what we have to study today to be service ready.
What is the primary purpose of the seatbelt, and its pretensioner system?
If the seatbelt isn't used, deployment is required and the system falsely interprets that the seatbelt is in use because of the bypassed input, exactly what can happen to the driver?
Aren't you muddying the waters here a bit?
Nobody is advocating that anyone not use their seatbelt. We were only talking about an annoying chime that is malfunctioning.
OTOH, if someone doesn't want to use a seatbelt, then the results are just Darwinism at work.
If it's like the case of getting medical permission to tint your front windshield, you are supposed to remove the tint when you sell the car.
Absolutely not. How many would be quick to say, "If you don't know how something works, don't touch it?"
Nobody is advocating that anyone not use their seatbelt. We were only talking about an annoying chime that is malfunctioning.
That is exactly how this conversation started, that poster in answers doesn't have a broken car, he/she doesn't want to use the belt and they no idea what the system's response to not using the belt is. If the warning system is malfunctioning, then the system is malfunctioning and it needs serviced/repaired. Intentionally trying to defeat the system in any manner will increase the potential for unintended consequences. These consequences need to be examined and that's where I'm taking this.
OTOH, if someone doesn't want to use a seatbelt, then the results are just Darwinism at work.
If it was really just darwinism, is that suggesting that no-one should care? However it isn't just darwinism, others will be at risk at some point in time from decisions such as what that original poster wants to make.
When someone tries to bypass a safety system can you see some of the holes in the swiss cheese starting to line up?
Somehow we seem to forget that driving is a priviledge, and with that priviledge comes a significant responsibility to be able to operate the vehicle in a safe manner. Someone who's physical condition makes it unsafe for them to operate a vehicle with all of the correct safeguards in-place very likely shouldn't be driving a vehicle in the first place. The only real reason to disarm the system is if the driver is too small to be safely out of the "punch-out" zone. When the bag deploys, it takes a lot of force to break out of the steering pad and then fully inflate. If you are in that zone you are at a greater risk of significant injury (maybe even death) from the airbag than you might be from some accidents themselves. That's why one of the previous questions is worded as it is. The seatbelts primary job is to pull, the occupant out of the punch-out zone, and make sure that they are restrained in an area that the airbags can do their job. It's a system and every part has to work correctly.
That's a completely different scenario. For one there is a warning lamp that is lit that informs the driver and occupant that part of the system is turned off. Secondly the driver has full control and the ability to turn it on or off at will. Passenger presence systems are an automated version where small occupants (generally 70lbs or less) cause the system to deactivate in some cases, or at least deploy at a reduced rate as compared to how they would deploy with a full sized adult.
Maybe. Maybe not.
I would never get a TPMS fixed if it started malfunctioning. My hand held gauge works just fine thank you.
Every lawnmower I've owned for tha past 15 years or so have had that dang "turn off the engine when the handle is released" feature. So I've always used a piece of velcro to keep the handle closed, to keep the engine from turning off when I need to pick up a stick from the lawn.
The nanny state is just getting a bit too much to handle.
As you so often imply in your comments, lets just stick to the facts and let everyone come to their own conclusions, shall we (oil cap, anyone)? Seeing as how you didn't find any operational fault with the modification, it appears the OP will get along just fine with his "fix".
I most certainly not attempting to suggest anyone not use safety belts.
BTW, I am the only driver of my 09 Tacoma, and I have the automatic latching of my safety belt so ingrained in me that I often find myself latching it even if I just sit in the car for some reason, without any intention of starting it, much less driving it. If I made the pre-discussed change in my truck, it would affect only me.
I'm sure you'll want to inject the possibility of what happens after I'm gone, but that's a discussion for another day. Or, a straw-man argument. Your choice...
In my case, the answer is yes.
If the seatbelt warning is eliminated, other than state laws what incentive is there for the driver to actually use the belt?
I dunno.... How about accident survival? That motivates me every time.
What happens when the car is sold and changes hands?
You tell the buyer what changes have been made. Once its his car, its his choice as to how he wishes to approach the situation.
If a shop does a used car safety check and the SRS system has been tricked into not alerting and coding for a fault, who is responsible?
Personally, I could care less. It's not a problem I have to deal with. Frankly, I'm much more concerned with the National debt.
Well, I doubt you'll get any argument with that comment.
Personally, I see far more danger from sharing the road with 80+ year olds that can't even see as far as the dashboard, or some joker that can't tell the difference between the accelerator and brake pedals than I do from someone who has a problem fastening his seatbelt.
Don't even get me started on cellphones and texting and driving...
When you can solve those conditions, you'll definitely have my undivided attention.
Oh he survived? Guess my tax dollars will pay for the long term care. :shades:
What are you talking about? I easily find an operational faults when the seat belt buckled input is tampered with, or if the seatbelt is used incorrectly. As far as turning it off on a 2013 pick-up the OP in answers is clearly looking for a way to not use his seat belt and not be annoyed by it alerting him and that means the nut behind the wheel needs to be addressed.
How this ever morphed to be about "you" is the start of the straw man argument if there is to be one. You are clearly capable of employing darwinistic behavior if you so choose.
Well, that was my original question, which you addressed by citing social implications. I wanted to know what specific issues bypassing the safety belt latching mechanism would cause.
Clear enough now?
What I see around here every 2-3 days on the news is someone killed in the middle of the night, not wearing a seatbelt, and colliding with an immovable object.
Oh, and an exceptionally high number of impaired (DUI) drivers...
IMO, the DUI part trumps the not wearing a seat belt part, from the other motorist POV.
Clear enough now?
Social implications? If you want to know specifics, then do some research and answer the very clear questions that were in the post that you responded to. Here I'll repeat them for you.
Lets simplify this a bit for the next set of questions by using just one vehicle for the example while keeping in mind this should be repeated for every single model and level of restraint system available.
2010 Ford Escape.
How many levels of the driver air bag deployment are there in a fully functional system?
How does the system alter its deployment from the previous list if the seatbelt isn't used?
What is the primary purpose of the seatbelt, and its pretensioner system?
Answered already BTW....
If the seatbelt isn't used, deployment is required and the system falsely interprets that the seatbelt is in use because of the bypassed input, exactly what can happen to the driver?
What difference does that make in an incident where the seatbelt detection device is hardwired, and the person sitting in the seat is wearing the seatbelt?
How does the system alter its deployment from the previous list if the seatbelt isn't used?
I never even mentioned the seatbelt not being used. My specific question was...
"So, assuming its the driver 's side seat belt, and the driver religiously buckles up 100% of the time, what are the possible complications a change such as this might create?"
What is the primary purpose of the seatbelt, and its pretensioner system?
Answered already BTW....
If the seatbelt isn't used, deployment is required and the system falsely interprets that the seatbelt is in use because of the bypassed input, exactly what can happen to the driver?
Irrelevant to the question I asked.
If you don't want to, or can't accurately answer the question, then just say so... It's no big deal. All I was interested in was what systems (and how) would be affected in the scenario I set forth.
He has a very realistic (and entertaining) take on how our society encourages students are educated, as well as how to decide on what field of employment they should enter.
One example he used was a situation in which he was in his high school guidance councilor's office and was shown 2 posters on a wall, one a dirty/greasy mechanic and the other showing a college graduate holding his degree, and the question the guidance councilor asked him was "Which would you rather be?"
He's really got a great outlook on how we educate our kids, and how we train so many for jobs that no longer exists (or never did to begin with).
Can't answer your simple question? Really? Sorry I took your question as rhetorical and didn't expect that you really didn't know the answer. Why if the system is bypassed and the driver actually uses the belt it would be expected that the system should function normally.
So now that we have that out of the way, let see how you do answering the questions that I asked which were all about the original topic. Do I need to repeat them again?
Your point is?
Today's top techs don't fit that stereotype.
BTW if this represents what a college education can do for someone, I'd rather be a mechanic any day. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=563_1373664708
The nanny state is just getting a bit too much to handle.
My commercial ZTR mower is supposed to disengage the blades when both control levers are in their reverse position. Fortunately that "feature" has never worked- and you can bet I never asked my OPE shop to fix it either. In any case, the mower has a "dead man switch" on the seat.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Going back to your original question you asked...
What are the possible results or complications of bypassing the seat belt buckled input for the supplemental restraint system?
Instead of insinuating something bad is going to happen, why not simply state your opinion and the related facts? All I was interested in was what unusual/unexpected behavior might be seen if someone rigged the seatbelt to appear latched 100% of the time, yet also ore the seatbelt 100% of the time.
It didn't seem like that difficult question for you to answer... At least, it didn't to me.
I certainly can appreciate a mechanic's POV in troubleshooting problems in vehicles that have had systems tampered with or altered. It makes the job more difficult. It's also a fact of life that some people are going to do it, so anyone interested in becoming a mechanic had better adjust, or they need to find a different field to work in.
So now that we have that out of the way, let see how you do answering the questions that I asked which were all about the original topic. Do I need to repeat them again?
We've already had this discussion. Car mechanics aren't my specialty, they're yours. In other words, you're asking a "loaded" question. I don't need to know, but in your profession, you do.
Your point is?
Today's top techs don't fit that stereotype.
I agree, top techs don't fit that stereotype. However, since you seem to feel the need to address the issue, based on many previous postings by you, I simply thought you might be interested in how someone who is familiar enough with the blue-collar work environment that he has testified before Congress on the subject felt about how the public in general views blue-collar work today.
Watch it, or not. I don't really care one way or the other. Again, its your choice.
I should have expected it.
Beats me why anyone would think a non-mechanic should know all the things a practicing mechanic should know.
I'd better get to work studying...
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Abuse-Public-Ridicule-Constant-Negative-3945201.S- .257571544?view=&srchtype=discussedNews&gid=3945201&item=257571544&type=member&t- rk=eml-anet_dig-b_pd-ttl-cn&fromEmail=&ut=0Hxgmje6hsr5Q1
Beats me why anyone would think a non-mechanic should know all the things a practicing mechanic should know.
Well just ask them and you'll see that they will all tell you that they do, right up to the point that they have to put up or shut up that is.
Seems to me he asked a simple question, and you misunderstood. In today's economy, no need to "fire" anybody.
You seem to have a problem with everyone, doc.
In fact, while I have wondered this before, I will voice it now. I am certain you hate every single person who darkens the doors of your shop, be them potential customers or even the regulars. I suspect that the only reason you are in business is because you appear to be a competent mechanic. If you weren't..then your customers would drop you and your bullying like a hot potato. You like to bully and create waves (by your own admission) and the only reason you get away with it is because some of your customers have no other option but to suck it up if they want their car fixed. I know I once said "but I like the guy". Well, in an ongoing effort to give a person the benefit of doubt, and extend the bookends to understanding all personalities, I realize now that I spoke prematurely.
Ya better be careful, doc, or you and Mr Shiftright's Mechanic's Life forum won't continue to have an audience. Or certainly not the kind you wish you had...you know the kind...the one's who you would like to take you and your profession, seriously..as opposed to the kind who check in and crack the popcorn..
Now that would be demeaning..and a shame.
Nah, I understood that he was picking for a fight just fine.
I am a stand my ground kind of guy anymore. I used to let everything just roll right off my back and the only thing that I ever got for that was stepped on even more. So in effect you are saying when bursis started that garbage, I'm just supposed to take it and be happy for it. What-ever...
We were looking at the open engine lids of 2 cars---one a late 60s Porsche 911, the other a 2007 Porsche Boxster S.
The mechanic was remarking that he had rebuilt both engines for the same club member, who owned both of the cars.
When I asked him what the difference was in doing both jobs, he said:
(pointing to the early 911)
"Joy"
(and pointing to the Boxster)
"No Joy"
Other than you using the term "expert" multiple times in your accusations, who else here has made the claim they were a car repair "expert"?
I certainly haven't.
And, just for the record, when I originally asked the question on jury-rigging seat-belts, it was a bona-fide question. I actually wanted to know if performing such an operation would cause unforeseen electro-mechanical problems that might surface elsewhere. That is exactly why I worded it the way I did, being very specific in my question.
The fact that you apparently didn't see it that way, and decided to opine on the value of wearing seat belts (which NO ONE here has disagreed with, BTW) isn't my problem.
One last thing... Usually, most folks see name calling as the last-ditch attempt of someone losing an argument. Even though you and I may have our disagreements, I would find it difficult to start attacking you personally.
I'm sure the newer model is so overly complex it makes a tough job tougher. Not to mention just pulling the darn thing out must make you want to scream.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
When he was still alive, my dad was in business with his brother. Two people more opposite never walked the face of this earth.
My dad was pretty much a positive guy, and my uncle never saw anything but the bad side of anyone or anything.
Here's the odd thing about it. If you asked both of them to describe their customers, my uncle would see them all as deadbeat opportunists, and my dad would see them (at least, the vast majority of them) as customers simply wanting to get value for their money.
As time went on, even my uncle arrived at the conclusion he ran off as much "quality" business as my dad was able to bring in, so he relegated himself to the tasks that required little to no customer interaction. He was a very competent and able partner when it came to the products and services they offered, and most customers recognized that fact. They just eventually got to the point they refused to do business with him directly.
FWIW, I didn't take busiris' questions the same way you did. But then I was not looking for someone purposely trying to bait anyone. And upon review, still don't think that was the case.
You are in an uneasy place in time it seems, doc. It seems like you are tired.
I know when you teach that you you feel you have a certain disclosure message to be communicated to the kids, but...and while you might be among the best educator in the details of diagnostics and troubleshooting vehicles, I'm thinking you very much taint the prospects of many a young potential tech (ones who are not nearly as serious a personality) that could be just what the doctor ordered for the car repair future, because you have been in it too long and are too biased against the entire trade and your tiredness and fed-up points-of- view, quickly rise right to the surface, often without any valid reason. In this world, if you look for trouble (no matter how seemingly innocent the scene) you will usually find it.
My advice is to go back to the water/ducks/back. Not because I think you should eat up whatever potential abuse is being served up, but rather..this way when you hear or read something that you take the wrong way, because you are tired and tainted (or for whatever other reason)...you never let on that you took it the wrong way, and then often with a bit more communication after the fact, it is revealed that they were not working an angle at all. Then the tension of a disabling a seat belt ramifications type question, doesn't have to go all side-ways so quickly. Ya see what I mean maybe? I hope? Anyway. Peace.
I would think there would be much less plumbing in the 1969 model as compared to a late model Boxter, too.
As for re and re'ing, I have never seen under the hood of either. I am curious tho. I'll bet it is a paint-by-numbers routine (and probably more of them on the Boxster) and if you try to take shortcuts or reduce the number of steps and in the order they should be taken, then those shortcut attempts probably reveal themselves sooner in the Boxster than with the 911.
I suspect it's the difference between taking apart a watch to repair it vs ordering a new movement and slapping on the crystal, case and band.