Flat rate is 100% commission. The original idea was that if a tech is efficient, and works hard he/she could learn to beat the times and earn a bonus. If the tech makes a mistake, only the tech was supposed to lose so the "system" had a reward/punishment aspect to it. When a car had to go back because it wasn't fixed correctly for what-ever reason the tech didn't (doesn't) get paid for the time that the subsequent visit(s) required. That was supposed to be incentive to really get it right the first time. When the times are developed in a fair and equitable manner a tech can make a good wage and afford to eat a loss here or there. But when the times that the jobs pay are nothing short of fraudulent the tech is punished for ever caring at all. Warranty times have been basically dishonest for decades and the line would be "you have to take the good with the bad". If you complained about how fair the system was, you would be labeled as having a bad attitude. Quite often instead of just getting rid of a tech who was burning out from the pressure the management would bury him/her with warranty work and the income loss would soon have the tech bailing out of the dealership for greener pastures and then they didn't even risk having to pay unemployment.
Remember NBC's sting? All they caught was techs who finally caved into the pressure who started overselling services which rewarded the techs financially and made the dealer big bucks on top of it all. Then when the sting occurred the techs (and the writers) get blamed while the whole machine that created the situation simply got to be reset for another run. This GM school will only manage to throw more meat to the lions and just about anyone who doesn't have the scruples to walk away from the life will very likely end up next in line to be caught in someone's sting story. And the machine will just reset again with everyone's blessings.
It's been a long time since I've been to a dealer for service but I don't recall ever even knowing who the tech is, much less interact with anyone but the service writer. That's another reason to find an independent shop - stuff doesn't get "filtered" so much.
It's been a long time since I've been to a dealer for service but I don't recall ever even knowing who the tech is, much less interact with anyone but the service writer.
The techs are playing beat the clock every second of the day. When a customer does get to command their attention, that is instantly unpaid time. On top of that, if you get to break their concentration you have just opened the door for mistake to occur which at the very least could cost the tech time to have to back track and attend to it if he/she catches it or cause that vehicle owner to have to come back if there is a problem with the car because of the mistake.
What good would that do? The manufacturers are still going to pay what they want to pay one way or the other.
Maybe nothing. Maybe a lot, if you get a number of indie shops to sign on to your's and Jame's flat rate book.
BTW, the flat rate numbers you have been alluding to and that you posted from James - those are for dealer shops, right? Do independent shops have to follow those manufacturer provided flat rate estimates?
Maybe there's a class action lawsuit brewing here, if it could be shown that the flat rate numbers are really pie-in-the-sky, fraudulent, and that consumers are being harmed by techs having to race and cu corners to meet or beat the flat rate numbers.
BTW, the flat rate numbers you have been alluding to and that you posted from James - those are for dealer shops, right?
Those are the rates that the manufacturers pay the dealers. One of the lines of BS that has been handed to the techs in the past is "Those times are not intended to set a technicians compensation for the given repair, that is a separate agreement between the tech and the dealer he/she works for".
Do independent shops have to follow those manufacturer provided flat rate estimates?
Not in the normal sense. There are no time studies done, aftermarket books do exactly what James wrote, multiply the O.E. times by a given amount and then publish them. In the cases of the labors listed, shops will be underpaying the techs with those rates. We do have problems that come from certain extended warranty contracts, some of those do use the O.E labor rates. Our choice then is do the work and bill the customer and they eat the difference or in some cases if a tug of war about who is going to pay what starts, we simply have to turn the job away or take the loss.
Maybe there's a class action lawsuit brewing here, if it could be shown that the flat rate numbers are really pie-in-the-sky, fraudulent, and that consumers are being harmed by techs having to race and cu corners to meet or beat the flat rate numbers
If only we could see that come to be. The lawsuit just won in California is the first of its kind, but even with that one there is still such a long way to go.
We have to accomplish a few goals to gain the kind of support that it will take to make something like that happen. One of them is for people to realize that what we do and who we are doesn't match the stereotype that many still want to see us as.
if it could be shown that the flat rate numbers are really pie-in-the-sky, fraudulent,
Heck that one would be easy. Just try to do the jobs you saw mentioned here and see how long it takes someone. They are just the tip of the iceberg. Press the O.E's for how they create these labor times and you'll quickly learn phrases like "wrench time" as they attempt to justify impossibly low labor times. Do you see the ones that don't pay diagnostic time at all? In some cases for safety's sake it takes two techs to perform diagnostics, one to operate the scan tool, while the other one drives. How does anyone justify not paying both techs for that time? Oh yea, I forgot. We got to take the good with the bad, and we have to be team players.
consumers are being harmed by techs having to race and cu corners to meet or beat the flat rate numbers.
Well it has been shown that some techs will resort to overselling, and this is the real reason behind it. Media just likes to grandstand when they catch a tech that is doing it. The media doesn't appear to have any interest in really stopping it because as you said it could turn around and bite them in their add revenue streams. Heck for that matter by media focusing the blame on just the techs and writers the real cause just gets to keep on, keeping on and its almost as if the dealers and the manufacturers want it that way.
Not much more than a glance. The stalling, loss of power is from it being out of control, " too lean" at all engine loads. I'll be taking fuel samples and measuring fuel pressure.
I got a look at the Hyundai, it will be headed back to the transmission shop. The goal was to make sure to be able to tell him exactly what the failure is. Details are here in the blog.
Now, that's enough to prove the fault is inside the transaxle, but it doesn't prove if the circuit is grounding, or if it's losing a connection. The question posed is how would you change the testing connections so that you have proof of exactly what the failure is before the transaxle is disassembled? ">
Thanks for the quick answer. I have read the factory service manual, and the descriptions of the job over on the various VW forums, and I do believe a competent mechanic would beat the flat rate on this rather handily. Now myself, on the other hand, would probably require a half day (or more) (smile).
I do believe a competent mechanic would beat the flat rate on this rather handily.
That's one of the bizzare aspects of flat rate, easy work (customer pay) is very high on labor times, and the really hard, nightmarish stuff doesn't pay at all.
Can a tranny module be disconnected from the rest of a vehicle's electronics and be tested for shorted ground? There are just SO many ways these things can be wired that for all I know they have independent grounds that use shorts to create some other intended function, even during normal operation. I really don't know,,this scenario is much out of my element. When I first read about this car tho, I had a fleeting moment when I wondered if a wire was pinched during install or...wait for it...the dreaded connector being dislodged on some of its prongs, but not all...so many things it could be when a person is out of their element. And doc...you know we are on most of these. Unless there are lurkers here who are capable...I'd like to think they wudda spoken up by now though just to shake ya up, if they had a theory, haha..
Can a tranny module be disconnected from the rest of a vehicle's electronics and be tested for shorted ground?
A shorted ground? It's common to see the word "short" be misused. As far as testing a module off the car, that could be done provided you have a harness and bench that would simulate the rest of the circuit. With all of the different modules today that's not practical at a shop level. It makes much more sense to test everything in the vehicle. Besides, most of the problems are not inside the modules and this Hyundai was just another example of that.
There are just SO many ways these things can be wired that for all I know they have independent grounds that use shorts to create some other intended function, even during normal operation.
Today's auto techs need an electronics background equivalent to what you would expect a robotics technician to have. This Hyundai is just a sample of what we (I) encounter on a daily basis. Before the first tool is taken out of the tool box, we have to spend a few minutes gathering as much service information as possible so that we get to know as much about the circuit in question as we possibly can. Then we have to create a plan of attack. In this case I had to preset my test points to try and gather as much information about the circuit when its operating correctly as I could so that when it acted up I could pinpoint the failure efficiently.
When I first read about this car tho, I had a fleeting moment when I wondered if a wire was pinched during install or...wait for it...the dreaded connector being dislodged on some of its prongs,
These possibilities were all in play and had to be ruled in/out by testing. One of the tough parts is that the testing has to be done on the road because the problem only occurs on the road. The car looks like a science project when you see all of the wires going out the passengers window and under the hood. By having enough test leads and having them labeled, changes in test points can be made quickly from inside the car. Meanwhile each time the problem occurs you only have about 1/4 of a second to make a measurement before the module codes for the circuit and turns the relay that powers the transmission solenoids off. When that happens you have to stop and shut the car down for ten seconds and then restart it and try to get it to act up again.
And doc...you know we are on most of these. Unless there are lurkers here who are capable...
Anyone who is truly capable of working through this knows that it only gets solved efficiently by taking a disciplined approach and doing the testing and recording the results exactly as you see presented. Those couple captures I posted represent some forty screen-shots that were saved. Some with the problem occurring, some simply for comparison and to prove how the circuit really works, and some which were in turn discarded because the problem was missed. ( BTW. The manufacturers don't publish that information, we have to figure these things out each time) The tough part is that quite often when the problem occurs the difficulty of driving and capturing the information at the same time with the scope set at a fast enough rate causes it to be missed, when that happens you get to restart the testing yet again after another key cycle.
I'd like to think they wudda spoken up by now though just to shake ya up, if they had a theory, haha..
The customer who's car was acting up didn't have any more time for theories. All of the silver bullets have already been used up and some expensive parts were already thrown at the car. It took a little over an hour to prove what was wrong by going about it the right way. Now picture this, if this was a warranty repair, say like back in the day when I worked at the dealership they would hand me a line like, "We can't pay you to fix this one because it's a comeback/warranty/ goodwill/ (etc.) We'll find you some gravy work to make-up the time". So the time spent figuring the transmission problem out wouldn't have paid anything while the tranny service mentioned a few posts ago would have been given to me as if that balanced the ledger.
Just saw a billboard ad [ I 64] for experienced mechanics. Local multi-store "buy here pay here" used car dealer. I'm sure the shop is extremely employee friendly.
A billboard add to try and attract techs? Can't say that I've ever seen that before. It would (at least to me) be interesting to have someone go in and put in an application and see what they are expecting and offering.
BTW for anyone interested I did put more information up about the Hyundai Transmission testing on my autotechtitude blog.
A billboard add to try and attract techs? Can't say that I've ever seen that before. It would (at least to me) be interesting to have someone go in and put in an application and see what they are expecting and offering.
A couple of years ago, there were billboards up around Houston for HostGator wanting to hire unix system administrators. I was curious, but did not follow up. Since then I have interviewed a guy who worked there, and he told me it was a terrible place to work. "If you need a job really bad, they have a really bad job for you."
I have been on IATN for years and rarely post most notably for not having much to offer or time to do so. I do follow and read a few posters on IATN that after reading their posts I feel I can learn a great deal from, one of them is Albin Moore which is why I am posting this response after reading the thread from his following. I am a 30 year plus tech, Master Ford, ASE Master, Evening Adjunct Automotive Instructor, and constantly reading, watching, taking any kind of training on anything automotive that I can but I am beginning to doubt myself and my industry. I hate to say this but it is not just GM. I have been working for FORD for over 26 years and they are no better than GM. Cost cutting measures mean the trickle down of flat rate times to the tech and they continue. You have to remember the technician body is not represented by the UAW so when a manufacturer has to save money they do so by reducing flat rate times for the tech its simple and has no chance to be challenged. Ford also now uses a plan for warranty where an assessor monitors every claim and compares dealers claims against each other for related repairs. If said dealer is higher they simply remove the time they consider "over" and there is nothing that can be done. You can challenge them on it but they also monitor that as well, which can lead to serious warranty charge backs, counseling etc. They have the dealers and warranty administrators so concerned they fail to charge what is actually fair leading to a further reduction of income for the dealer and tech as well. It is easier for the dealer to make the difference up via multiple income sources but the tech, you're all you have and no one cares about you except yourself. Sync and My Touch have become huge issues for Ford as has the DPS6 transmission. Problem is if a customer complains about them and operation is considered normal after an RO has been written, time taken to verify whether or not there is a concern or it is OAD (operating as designed) there is no pay for the tech. Ford will tell you the service manager or writer should take care of this but when you receive multiple complaints daily in a large busy shop there is not enough manpower to do so. Also not taken into consideration is when the customer insists there is a concern and wants a tech to look at it. Ford states the dealer should accept the responsibility and take care of the tech... I don't remember the dealer ever designing these systems. The Engineer(s) who do however still get paid, the factory workers still get paid, the Corporate leaders still get paid, shareholders receive dividends, everyone gets paid except the tech which is why its harder and harder for customers to have their vehicles repaired right the first time or at all. I have watched labor times and parts prices drastically reduced when a recall appears on a vehicle which anymore occurs on a daily basis as the rush for new products and a reduction in staff has seriously hindered R&D. I have seen the slashing of diagnosis time, "streamlined diagnosis" and the constant erosion of the support for the technician. Customers and manufacturers both fail to account for or give any leeway for the most difficult to repair or intermittent concerns let alone compensation. Customers figuring that with a wave of a wand or some magic crystal ball it can all be cured while they wait for the magic to occur because they have an appointment in an hour they have to be at and if I fail to repair the stall that has occurred only 3 times in 3 years I am somehow not a good tech ( I just went through this two weeks ago and yes the customer waited). The manufacturer does not really care about the tech being paid either as it affects the bottom line and a penny saved times how many repairs a day, well you get the idea. My most current and frustrating ordeal is a 2013 Focus ST that no one including engineering seems to have any idea how to repair. Engineering has offered three fixes (we call them guesses, but as a tech I can't do that or its a comeback and I don't get paid), I currently have over 20 hours invested in this vehicle and have been paid approx 4 hours. I don't know for sure but I can bet that there aren't many people who go to work everyday figuring that getting paid for 1 hour out of every 5 is a good deal. Couple that with constant training on MY time at MY expense, tool purchases etc it just is no longer a very smart business to be in. Ford will say your dealer should help pay the tech, why? The customer purchased vehicle from another dealer so no money has been made by either myself or my dealer so how and why should they compensate me. The concern is with FORD's vehicle they are ultimately responsible for the repair and should also be responsible for paying someone to repair it. Multiple attempts have been made via Engineering and the FSE to no avail however they are all getting paid, I am not. I want to fix this vehicle because deep down I do care and I enjoy the challenge but I am beginning to ask myself is it wise and does anyone really care. As I stated earlier I am an evening adjunct instructor at the local college and I hear it from all of my students who work at dealers regardless of the manufacturer. Its sad but last year 3 of my top 5 students who were working at dealers and following the completion of their second year they are switching their majors to another industry which is disappointing. Anyone who teaches knows that there are but a handful of students who have the ability, intelligence and intestinal fortitude it takes to become a good tech, losing the few that do leaves the industry with a pool of candidates that are not what are industry needs to repair vehicles or our image. Manufacturers and most dealers treat their techs as a necessary evil figuring they can bring in anyone pay them $10-15 dollars a flat rate hour, throw a scan tool at them and they can fix anything. That mentality is why we are where we are at now. I continue to strive to be the best I can be and help the young guys that I have brought into our shop but its disheartening to know what they are faced with and to be honest if any left for other opportunities I could not really fault them.
My dealer is unique in that they do what they can to help the techs which is why we have an established base without the normal constant turmoil and turnover of most dealers but there is only so much they can do as well. Customers and manufacturers share the same traits neither want to pay for repairs let alone diagnosis and are constantly price shopping as if they are buying a cellphone or tv, but they are the first to complain and call the entire industry as incompetent when their vehicle is not "fixed" right the first time even though they went the cheapest route first. I find it somewhat absurd that the people who engineer, design, build and profit from a vehicle are also the ones that set the times they charge themselves for a repair that affects their bottom line, bonuses, stock prices and shareholder enthusiasm. I doubt they would ever shortchange on the repair end to make the bottom line look good now would they?
Even the great Henry Ford, the supreme Penny Pincher, understood that if you subject your workers to the results of time/motion studies, you have to compensate them by paying them more than anybody else.
Which he did--$5 a day when GM and Chrysler were paying 1/2 that.
Now if people take the time to notice, piece by piece a picture is being put together. You want to know what its like being a technician? That's what this thread really needs to be all about. There are many more stories like James's and this Ford techs that I can copy here. Flat rate is supposed to be a pay plan that encourages ingenuity, discipline, and it is supposed to reward efficiency, experience and productivity. Managed properly a good tech should be able to make a reasonable living, but mismanaged flat rate becomes a weapon that only the dealers, and the manufacturers get to enjoy the benefits of. By being mismanaged like it is, flat rate hurts consumers because it hurts the people who are first in line for taking care of them. The kinds of abuses mentioned here in these couple of posts train some techs to cheat and rewards them for doing so and I've mentioned it at least half a dozen times when the media sticks their nose in and catches the techs cheating, they turn around and let the management that created the situation off of the hook. Nothing that I have written here is about making some kind of an excuse, its all been about showing all of the different abuses and pressures that the techs face that do anything except help them be able to enjoy their jobs and get to take some pride in the work that they do.
It seems that every time we turn around someone else is claiming how competent they are, and how incompetent techs are. But did you notice when I put out some real examples of the work that some of us do suddenly no-one wanted to accept the challenge(s)? Being able to change your own oil, or replace a light bulb doesn't represent what a technicians responsibilities are job in, and job out. Then we have all of the examples about how cheap and/or free is so important, but where are the comments about that Ford tech having some twenty hours into a nightmare car where everyone else involved is getting to be adequately compensated for the effort except him? (He's been paid about four) Even the consumer will be taken care of if the car defies repair, but no-one seems to care about the tech that is unless he gives in and starts overselling services in order to try and earn a paycheck, and of course be productive enough to not lose his job. (Keep in mind if he does that and someone complains he will lose his job anyway)
Ohenry had a great line, "If you need a job real bad, we have a really bad job for you". That really fits what I've been talking about. The first step to changing the trade really starts with consumers stepping up and demanding that the O.E's find a better way to make sure that the techs they need to have for you are competent, trained, and happy in their jobs. The problem still remains however that a technician workforce that can make your car last longer and at a cost that is more reasonable than replacing it isn't in the manufacturers, and the dealerships primary interest. Every attack on techs, justified or otherwise serves their need to make replacing a car more enticing that fixing it. It's high time you all realize what its been costing you to keep having those foxes guarding the hen-house.
After all is said and done, are these techs making a living wage? The mfrs must feel that they are totally expendible -- don't like the conditions ? Then leave -- we have ten people waiting for your job. They apparently treat them like trash because they can. Do they treat the UAW like that ? They obviously don't care so is there a way to make them care ? Probably not. Sounds pretty hopeless and sad. Stepping on the workers that have no recourse is the American way in the auto business.
But did you notice when I put out some real examples of the work that some of us do suddenly no-one wanted to accept the challenge(s)?
What I have noticed is that you write contradictory posts in which you pick and choose what you feel like replying to. Very little credit is handed out when someone does nail an answer. That happened to me and all I got was a "yup". I guess I should be glad of the yup mind you..but not a week later you have no memory of anyone who does try to take shot at some of these things that are, already numerous times admittedly out of our element?
You put up challenges and is it any wonder no one (or few) here decide to accept a part challenge? If they make a slight slip of the tongue in describing something, you berate what ever their attempt was. Who needs that crap? Furthermore, you know dang well there are probably no readers who come here, can challenge the majority of these problems you post. How would YOU do in our shoes with none of these 100k $ pieces of equipment that you go for immediately? I think you like an audience that strokes your ego, every bit as much as your desire to use the venue to spread the word that the Ford tech and yourself have been saying this past year. You want to be appreciated and be on the receiving end of compliments, yet you are not very good at reciprocating.
I went to the blog and read the last update you mentioned but still don't know if you fixed the car or not? Or what exactly was the fix? You surely can't be afraid of giving away to any of us silver bullets on that problem?
but where are the comments about that Ford tech having some twenty hours into a nightmare car where everyone else involved is getting to be adequately compensated for the effort except him?
I often end up using hours on the phone, PC, making arrangements, explanations, clarifications, emailing etc on jobs that I'm actually on sometimes only 2 or 2.5 hours. It's not so bad if the downtime is spent when the job renders you 20 to 40 hours, but small jobs happen more often and often use up a surprising amt of downtime.
It's been mentioned more than once before, but not sure why you don't seem to get it...that if the tables were reversed and you were on some other specialty forum (not yours) and you were entirely out of your element, how would you feel if what you did challenge or answer was shot down with belittling and berating? And remember...sometimes what you challenge you did ok...wouldn't you be a bit peeved if the forum specialist pooh poohed anything you wrote? Now if you want to drive what few readers you have here away, well that might be working for you...or was this just another attempt at stimulating forum activity once again?
And finally...there is simply no excuse you can give, no matter how elaborate and convincing the rationalization, for a tech to have to make work for himself due to issues with the upper management, by stealing or selling unneeded work. NONE!!! It's not that I personally am not unsympathetic to the situation but I am of the mind that just cuz heat may put pressure on you in order for you to survive, cuz the system sucks, then if it goes against your basic assumedly healthy moral conduct, (by basically stealing) then get out of that line of work. If you don't like the way they treat the system then get out of it and do something else and let the fall out repercussions prevail. If the manufacturers have to send their entire fleet of engineers to "Little Rock Nowhere", to fix something they sold under wty cuz there aren't any techs available cuz they drove them out of the industry, then let them sort it out.
Or maybe just go all White Lightning on the big Glass House.. Take one for the team??
The first step to changing the trade really starts with consumers stepping up and demanding that the O.E's find a better way to make sure that the techs they need to have for you are competent, trained, and happy in their jobs.
How's that? :confuse:
What type of clout do we the consumer have to demand anything from O.E' s? Boycott every single manufacturer and threaten to ride bikes instead of cars?
Any change will have to come from dealerships and the techs themselves. I say Union! Union! UNION!!!!!!!
What I have noticed is that you write contradictory posts in which you pick and choose what you feel like replying to
Seems you haven't noticed or don't care when others ignore direct questions, why the double standard?
That happened to me and all I got was a "yup"
I'm sorry were you expecting trophy or something? I've made more than one mention to the strategy of demonstrating exactly what it is like being a technician but just saying what its like as never gotten a response. By treating people here exactly as we get treated you don't realize it but what I have done is achieved my goal. You got something right, gee that's nice. If you were a tech that's expected of you and remember you are only as good as the next time you fail. It really sucks to be treated that way, doesn't it?
You put up challenges and is it any wonder no one (or few) here decide to accept a part challenge? If they make a slight slip of the tongue in describing something, you berate what ever their attempt was. Who needs that crap?
BINGO!!! Nobody does, just go back to that Ford techs post and imagine what he is going though. He opens his post with this statement " I am a 30 year plus tech, Master Ford, ASE Master, Evening Adjunct Automotive Instructor, and constantly reading, watching, taking any kind of training on anything automotive that I can but I am beginning to doubt myself and my industry
Furthermore, you know dang well there are probably no readers who come here, can challenge the majority of these problems you post.
Apparently you've missed the attempts to suggest you can just google and find all the answers to any problem with any car.
How would YOU do in our shoes with none of these 100k $ pieces of equipment that you go for immediately
Let's leave this one for another day. With close to forty years as a professional technician there are many things that I do with nothing but a DVOM and a schematic.
I think you like an audience that strokes your ego, every bit as much as your desire to use the venue to spread the word that the Ford tech and yourself have been saying this past year. You want to be appreciated and be on the receiving end of compliments, yet you are not very good at reciprocating.
Meet me somewhere else other than here and then try and judge me if you must. I'll remind you that I only came here because of Mr. Reeds involvement with that NBC sting where he was presented as "an expert" and was all about criticizing the trade and what I found when I got here was articles of his that expose him as anything but an expert.
It's been mentioned more than once before, but not sure why you don't seem to get it...that if the tables were reversed and you were on some other specialty forum (not yours) and you were entirely out of your element, how would you feel if what you did challenge or answer was shot down with belittling and berating?
I'm not so inclined as to attempt to tell anyone that I am so proficient in their careers to any level that I would even try and guess how to do their job. Maybe you've missed the fact that 50% of what goes on is always about how talented someone else is if they can change a light bulb themselves. At the same time, what you have been seeing here again is how techs get treated and you don't have to look any further than around some of the forums here to get proof of that. You don't like being treated the way techs get treated, yea I get that and that's been the whole point that I have been making.
And finally...there is simply no excuse you can give, no matter how elaborate and convincing the rationalization, for a tech to have to make work for himself due to issues with the upper management, by stealing or selling un-needed work. NONE!!!
I want you to, go back over the last few posts that you have written towards me and ask yourself if they really depict who you see yourself as. I don't think that they do. If you notice I've managed to push you into acting out of character. It's not about making any kind of an excuses for those who do wrong this is all about putting the real working conditions out there so that the techs the consumer needs dont end up quitting. Let's keep the horse in front of the cart here. When all I did as push, and push and gave no recognition for any success you started to lose your way and you don't even have trying to earn a living the whole time hanging over you. Two wrongs don't make a right, but stop only blaming the tech for the second wrong and leaving the first one in place unquestioned.
I read these postings week after week about the auto techs and their whining and their dissatisfaction with the status quo of things.
Often through the months of this I've thought of the treatment of educators in the public schools (and charters) by their administration and the state governments and even the federal government. I see parallels with the complaints about the treatment by the automakers, the dealership owners, etc..
I can only suggest what teachers are told to do by various nonprofessionals in the field of education when teachers decide that their education, abilities, and performance against all odds in their jobs deserve more pay and benefits. They are told to get another job if they don't like it. They are told that they knew what the job pays when they took the job. They are told that they are "just" a teacher and they don't know how the whole system works.
This all being stated by politicians in the statehouse who can barely spell algebra and who are in the legislature because there are too many lawyers out fighting for clients so they took an easy out and got elected to office. I see administrators who are getting huge pay for sitting in an office telling everyone how to do it--the Peter Principle in many cases. And those same administrators set up a system where they could retire and then be employed in the same job collecting double pay, retirement and their regular pay. By the time teachers were retirement age, they were too burned out from actually working to think of retiring and getting rehired, if a relative of someone in administration or the school board wasn't already given the job because they were younger, cheaper, and related.
So after 30.5 years of my wife's experiences in the work world like that, I was happy she could retire with a moderate retirement into which she had paid much more than into social security and could enjoy. So she retired and doesn't whine, *itch, or moan about the mistreatment of the current and past. She just enjoys and tells everyone how they should be doing the job in elementary education.
I can see parallels for mechanics who need to leave the stress of the system behind and start enjoying life. Leave behind the feelings of hostility that eat away a person from the inside.
I can see parallels for mechanics who need to leave the stress of the system behind and start enjoying life. Leave behind the feelings of hostility that eat away a person from the inside.
So, from hearing the stories from James, the Ford tech, and yourself, it sounds like the root cause of of lot of the problems that have been voiced here (upselling unneeded services, returns, etc) is the dreaded Manufacturer's Flat Rate Manual.
That is absolutely a major contributing factor, management is also responsible for creating a dog eat dog atmosphere in the shops, and that culture eventually spreads out into the aftermarket as people leave the dealer network and still operate the way that they were trained to while they were in it.
BTW did you notice that the TV station sting on Jiffy Lube disappeared as fast as it appeared? They were on the right track going after the low to midde management there but stopped short of finishing the job, any wonder why they did that?
The reason they did that is that all major american media is owned by 6 giant corporations, and these corporations will not permit any grievous insult to their advertisers.
The reason they did that is that all major American media is owned by 6 giant corporations, and these corporations will not permit any grievous insult to their advertisers.
So does that mean they put profit ahead of consumer needs?
Leave behind the feelings of hostility that eat away a person from the inside.
Exactly. I like my job but it certainly isn't my passion. When I leave the office at the end of the day I am finished with work. Period. I don't even think about upcoming cases until the next day- unless it's a complex case that I really need to be on top of. I know more than a few judges and attorneys who hate their job and keep plugging on. Not me; if I disliked my work that much I would be out the door. As for my automotive abilities, I like to know enough about the cars that I own or hope to own someday- which is why I have zero interest in diagnosing Hyundai or Ford SUV woes. I guess it's the latent engineer in me, I always want to know as much about a car/bike/electronic gadget as I can before I buy it(back in the early '90s I drove my wife nuts shopping CD players). And, being the unreasonable person that I am, I expect those who sell/service those items to know at least as much as I do. And I'll have to say, I find much more rank incompetence and outrageous billing examples among "professional" home theater installers than I do among auto mechanics...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Bottom line, today's technicians have a tough life. They have to be learning constantly and they spend thousands of dollars on tools.
It used to be, a top mechanic could make decent money. Never great money except in rare instances but enough to raise a family and live a modest life.
The "gravy jobs" of yesterday are gone. This is why they create their own "gravy" by pushing services of marginal worth such as fuel injection flushes etc. I honestly can't blame them.
We can say..." You knew what you were getting into" or " hey, if you don't like it, quit and do something else"
But, it's not that easy. I wish I had a solution. We are facing a talent drain as never before as young people are being discouraged to go into the field.
"So does that mean they put profit ahead of consumer needs?"
Well they dish out what their audience likes, up to a point. The audience likes to see crooked garages busted on camera. We ALL like to see OTHER people punished for their sins after all.
But media doesn't want audiences to think TOO much or get TOO uncomfortable.
And if advertisers complain, the content gets pulled, definitely.
The business model of media is to take you, the audience, and sell you to another corporation.
He charges $79 an hour for his labor, which is eleven times minimum wage around here, but he has to wait until cars break and for customers to raise the money to get it fixed.
At min wage of $7.25, it takes about 14 hours to gross the money to net out $79. But that's the kid who didn't go to college, helping the mechanic send his kid to college. A kid trying to keep his beater running to get him to his min wage job. No wonder there's an entitlement society brewing out there. And I feel for the mechanic who wonders why there are not many customers.
The entitlement mentality is had most by those who have worked to keep wages suppressed to that level. If wages kept up with productivity or even basic cost of living inputs, it would be a bit more. It'll trickle down soon, I promise...a rising tide lifts all yachts.
My indy mechanic charges a good 40% more per hour than that, and he works his butt off, often putting in ~60 hour weeks. On the plus side, he's very good. He no doubt makes decent money too (always a line of customers), but I wouldn't want to put in those hours.
My wife and I are both retired teachers. The Board was functioning entirely through nepotism, favoritism and politics. Merit meant nothing to them. Pretty much like most businesses. Every person hired in administration at the central office and the school buildings was connected and had no accountability. The union was the only way to file a grievance against the actions of these incompetents . Without the union, all district decisions would have been arbitrary and based on self interest. It might be different in your neck of the woods, but having worked 24 of my 34 years in a non union educational setting, I know the truth based on my actual experience. I was glad to be able to finish my career with union backing because I knew what it was like without one. If people feel better off without a union, that's fine with me. It's an issue that can't be resolved.
The entitlement mentality is had most by those who have worked to keep wages suppressed to that level
I disagree
To me, the person out there planning to better himself and yet working his butt off for $7.85/hr does not have an entitlement mentality. It's very possible that his employer spent lots of years working for a lot less than $7.85/hr, so whatever leverage he has, he EARNED it too. This is a capitalist country, for a little while longer.
The entitlement mentality was summed up by the on campus interview where the 6' 3" 215 lb student answered.."What are you gonna do? Work?" when asked why he wanted college aid to pay for his college education.
I'm as entitled to a decent return on my savings as a worker is entitled a living wage. Sadly, under the money printing party going on, my return is negative but I wont strike for a doubling of interest rates. Double -2% is negative 4%. Bad Idea!! We are all losing in the current economy. Only 2.8% of the so called 963,000 jobs created in the US this year are full-time jobs. Incredibly sad.
Who said anything about the person working? What? I am talking about the people calling the shots, the offshorers, the trickle down con artists, the ones who think wages are too high right now. The employer might have made a lot less than $7.85, but back in his day, the money bought a lot more education, housing, fuel etc than it does today. Talk about entitlements, getting a foothold in a much less competitive and less expensive environment does not mean someone "earned" it more than those trying to make it today.
This is NOT a capitalist country. Study economic theory. This a market oligarchy. Capitalism implies some kind of meritocracy with egalitarian principles , which are not really out there for many people.
If someone keeps money in a plain old savings/money market account, they are entitled to the return connected to the risk or effort involved, which isn't much. Put your money to work, it's up to you. Not just losing in the current economy, the average worker has been losing for a few decades.
The "education" mantra is overblown, and is nothing more than a campaign slogan politicians use to get elected. Let's blame the schools, principals, teachers, government for our ignorant students. Personal responsibility is non-existent. Besides if every citizen got a good education, there wouldn't be anyone left to fix our fast food.... or automobiles.
Indeed, a vocational training system like in real first world countries would serve the US better than the "BA for everyone" driven so many believe. Then you get good mechanics.
Comments
Remember NBC's sting? All they caught was techs who finally caved into the pressure who started overselling services which rewarded the techs financially and made the dealer big bucks on top of it all. Then when the sting occurred the techs (and the writers) get blamed while the whole machine that created the situation simply got to be reset for another run. This GM school will only manage to throw more meat to the lions and just about anyone who doesn't have the scruples to walk away from the life will very likely end up next in line to be caught in someone's sting story. And the machine will just reset again with everyone's blessings.
The techs are playing beat the clock every second of the day. When a customer does get to command their attention, that is instantly unpaid time. On top of that, if you get to break their concentration you have just opened the door for mistake to occur which at the very least could cost the tech time to have to back track and attend to it if he/she catches it or cause that vehicle owner to have to come back if there is a problem with the car because of the mistake.
8http://www.flatratetech.com/index.html
Or is this one of those deals where they intentionally break stuff that you have to pay to fix?
Maybe nothing. Maybe a lot, if you get a number of indie shops to sign on to your's and Jame's flat rate book.
BTW, the flat rate numbers you have been alluding to and that you posted from James - those are for dealer shops, right? Do independent shops have to follow those manufacturer provided flat rate estimates?
Maybe there's a class action lawsuit brewing here, if it could be shown that the flat rate numbers are really pie-in-the-sky, fraudulent, and that consumers are being harmed by techs having to race and cu corners to meet or beat the flat rate numbers.
Those are the rates that the manufacturers pay the dealers. One of the lines of BS that has been handed to the techs in the past is "Those times are not intended to set a technicians compensation for the given repair, that is a separate agreement between the tech and the dealer he/she works for".
Do independent shops have to follow those manufacturer provided flat rate estimates?
Not in the normal sense. There are no time studies done, aftermarket books do exactly what James wrote, multiply the O.E. times by a given amount and then publish them. In the cases of the labors listed, shops will be underpaying the techs with those rates. We do have problems that come from certain extended warranty contracts, some of those do use the O.E labor rates. Our choice then is do the work and bill the customer and they eat the difference or in some cases if a tug of war about who is going to pay what starts, we simply have to turn the job away or take the loss.
Maybe there's a class action lawsuit brewing here, if it could be shown that the flat rate numbers are really pie-in-the-sky, fraudulent, and that consumers are being harmed by techs having to race and cu corners to meet or beat the flat rate numbers
If only we could see that come to be. The lawsuit just won in California is the first of its kind, but even with that one there is still such a long way to go.
We have to accomplish a few goals to gain the kind of support that it will take to make something like that happen. One of them is for people to realize that what we do and who we are doesn't match the stereotype that many still want to see us as.
if it could be shown that the flat rate numbers are really pie-in-the-sky, fraudulent,
Heck that one would be easy. Just try to do the jobs you saw mentioned here and see how long it takes someone. They are just the tip of the iceberg. Press the O.E's for how they create these labor times and you'll quickly learn phrases like "wrench time" as they attempt to justify impossibly low labor times. Do you see the ones that don't pay diagnostic time at all? In some cases for safety's sake it takes two techs to perform diagnostics, one to operate the scan tool, while the other one drives. How does anyone justify not paying both techs for that time? Oh yea, I forgot. We got to take the good with the bad, and we have to be team players.
consumers are being harmed by techs having to race and cu corners to meet or beat the flat rate numbers.
Well it has been shown that some techs will resort to overselling, and this is the real reason behind it. Media just likes to grandstand when they catch a tech that is doing it. The media doesn't appear to have any interest in really stopping it because as you said it could turn around and bite them in their add revenue streams. Heck for that matter by media focusing the blame on just the techs and writers the real cause just gets to keep on, keeping on and its almost as if the dealers and the manufacturers want it that way.
Did you get a chance to look at it today?
Not much more than a glance. The stalling, loss of power is from it being out of control, " too lean" at all engine loads. I'll be taking fuel samples and measuring fuel pressure.
Maybe tomorrow I'll have some time for it.
http://johng673.blogspot.com/
Now, that's enough to prove the fault is inside the transaxle, but it doesn't prove if the circuit is grounding, or if it's losing a connection. The question posed is how would you change the testing connections so that you have proof of exactly what the failure is before the transaxle is disassembled? ">
2009 Volkswagen Passat
2.0T engine
09G transmission, 6 speed automatic
How many hours to service the transmission (drain, drop the pan, replace filter, and put it all back together)?
That's one of the bizzare aspects of flat rate, easy work (customer pay) is very high on labor times, and the really hard, nightmarish stuff doesn't pay at all.
A shorted ground? It's common to see the word "short" be misused. As far as testing a module off the car, that could be done provided you have a harness and bench that would simulate the rest of the circuit. With all of the different modules today that's not practical at a shop level. It makes much more sense to test everything in the vehicle. Besides, most of the problems are not inside the modules and this Hyundai was just another example of that.
There are just SO many ways these things can be wired that for all I know they have independent grounds that use shorts to create some other intended function, even during normal operation.
Today's auto techs need an electronics background equivalent to what you would expect a robotics technician to have. This Hyundai is just a sample of what we (I) encounter on a daily basis. Before the first tool is taken out of the tool box, we have to spend a few minutes gathering as much service information as possible so that we get to know as much about the circuit in question as we possibly can. Then we have to create a plan of attack. In this case I had to preset my test points to try and gather as much information about the circuit when its operating correctly as I could so that when it acted up I could pinpoint the failure efficiently.
When I first read about this car tho, I had a fleeting moment when I wondered if a wire was pinched during install or...wait for it...the dreaded connector being dislodged on some of its prongs,
These possibilities were all in play and had to be ruled in/out by testing. One of the tough parts is that the testing has to be done on the road because the problem only occurs on the road. The car looks like a science project when you see all of the wires going out the passengers window and under the hood. By having enough test leads and having them labeled, changes in test points can be made quickly from inside the car. Meanwhile each time the problem occurs you only have about 1/4 of a second to make a measurement before the module codes for the circuit and turns the relay that powers the transmission solenoids off. When that happens you have to stop and shut the car down for ten seconds and then restart it and try to get it to act up again.
And doc...you know we are on most of these. Unless there are lurkers here who are capable...
Anyone who is truly capable of working through this knows that it only gets solved efficiently by taking a disciplined approach and doing the testing and recording the results exactly as you see presented. Those couple captures I posted represent some forty screen-shots that were saved. Some with the problem occurring, some simply for comparison and to prove how the circuit really works, and some which were in turn discarded because the problem was missed. ( BTW. The manufacturers don't publish that information, we have to figure these things out each time) The tough part is that quite often when the problem occurs the difficulty of driving and capturing the information at the same time with the scope set at a fast enough rate causes it to be missed, when that happens you get to restart the testing yet again after another key cycle.
I'd like to think they wudda spoken up by now though just to shake ya up, if they had a theory, haha..
The customer who's car was acting up didn't have any more time for theories. All of the silver bullets have already been used up and some expensive parts were already thrown at the car. It took a little over an hour to prove what was wrong by going about it the right way. Now picture this, if this was a warranty repair, say like back in the day when I worked at the dealership they would hand me a line like, "We can't pay you to fix this one because it's a comeback/warranty/ goodwill/ (etc.) We'll find you some gravy work to make-up the time". So the time spent figuring the transmission problem out wouldn't have paid anything while the tranny service mentioned a few posts ago would have been given to me as if that balanced the ledger.
BTW for anyone interested I did put more information up about the Hyundai Transmission testing on my autotechtitude blog.
A couple of years ago, there were billboards up around Houston for HostGator wanting to hire unix system administrators. I was curious, but did not follow up. Since then I have interviewed a guy who worked there, and he told me it was a terrible place to work. "If you need a job really bad, they have a really bad job for you."
I have been on IATN for years and rarely post most notably
for not having much to offer or time to do so. I do follow
and read a few posters on IATN that after reading their
posts I feel I can learn a great deal from, one of them is
Albin Moore which is why I am posting this response after
reading the thread from his following. I am a 30 year plus
tech, Master Ford, ASE Master, Evening Adjunct Automotive
Instructor, and constantly reading, watching, taking any
kind of training on anything automotive that I can but I am
beginning to doubt myself and my industry. I hate to say
this but it is not just GM. I have been working for FORD for
over 26 years and they are no better than GM. Cost cutting
measures mean the trickle down of flat rate times to the
tech and they continue. You have to remember the technician
body is not represented by the UAW so when a manufacturer
has to save money they do so by reducing flat rate times for
the tech its simple and has no chance to be challenged. Ford
also now uses a plan for warranty where an assessor monitors
every claim and compares dealers claims against each other
for related repairs. If said dealer is higher they simply
remove the time they consider "over" and there is nothing
that can be done. You can challenge them on it but they also
monitor that as well, which can lead to serious warranty
charge backs, counseling etc. They have the dealers and
warranty administrators so concerned they fail to charge
what is actually fair leading to a further reduction of
income for the dealer and tech as well. It is easier for the
dealer to make the difference up via multiple income sources
but the tech, you're all you have and no one cares about you
except yourself. Sync and My Touch have become huge issues
for Ford as has the DPS6 transmission. Problem is if a
customer complains about them and operation is considered
normal after an RO has been written, time taken to verify
whether or not there is a concern or it is OAD (operating as
designed) there is no pay for the tech. Ford will tell you
the service manager or writer should take care of this but
when you receive multiple complaints daily in a large busy
shop there is not enough manpower to do so. Also not taken
into consideration is when the customer insists there is a
concern and wants a tech to look at it. Ford states the
dealer should accept the responsibility and take care of the
tech... I don't remember the dealer ever designing these
systems. The Engineer(s) who do however still get paid, the
factory workers still get paid, the Corporate leaders still
get paid, shareholders receive dividends, everyone gets paid
except the tech which is why its harder and harder for
customers to have their vehicles repaired right the first
time or at all. I have watched labor times and parts prices
drastically reduced when a recall appears on a vehicle which
anymore occurs on a daily basis as the rush for new products
and a reduction in staff has seriously hindered R&D. I have
seen the slashing of diagnosis time, "streamlined diagnosis"
and the constant erosion of the support for the technician.
Customers and manufacturers both fail to account for or give
any leeway for the most difficult to repair or intermittent
concerns let alone compensation. Customers figuring that
with a wave of a wand or some magic crystal ball it can all
be cured while they wait for the magic to occur because they
have an appointment in an hour they have to be at and if I
fail to repair the stall that has occurred only 3 times in 3
years I am somehow not a good tech ( I just went through
this two weeks ago and yes the customer waited). The
manufacturer does not really care about the tech being paid
either as it affects the bottom line and a penny saved times
how many repairs a day, well you get the idea. My most
current and frustrating ordeal is a 2013 Focus ST that no
one including engineering seems to have any idea how to
repair. Engineering has offered three fixes (we call them
guesses, but as a tech I can't do that or its a comeback and
I don't get paid), I currently have over 20 hours invested
in this vehicle and have been paid approx 4 hours. I don't
know for sure but I can bet that there aren't many people
who go to work everyday figuring that getting paid for 1
hour out of every 5 is a good deal. Couple that with
constant training on MY time at MY expense, tool purchases
etc it just is no longer a very smart business to be in.
Ford will say your dealer should help pay the tech, why? The
customer purchased vehicle from another dealer so no money
has been made by either myself or my dealer so how and why
should they compensate me. The concern is with FORD's
vehicle they are ultimately responsible for the repair and
should also be responsible for paying someone to repair it.
Multiple attempts have been made via Engineering and the FSE
to no avail however they are all getting paid, I am not. I
want to fix this vehicle because deep down I do care and I
enjoy the challenge but I am beginning to ask myself is it
wise and does anyone really care. As I stated earlier I am
an evening adjunct instructor at the local college and I
hear it from all of my students who work at dealers
regardless of the manufacturer. Its sad but last year 3 of
my top 5 students who were working at dealers and following
the completion of their second year they are switching their
majors to another industry which is disappointing. Anyone
who teaches knows that there are but a handful of students
who have the ability, intelligence and intestinal fortitude
it takes to become a good tech, losing the few that do
leaves the industry with a pool of candidates that are not
what are industry needs to repair vehicles or our image.
Manufacturers and most dealers treat their techs as a
necessary evil figuring they can bring in anyone pay them
$10-15 dollars a flat rate hour, throw a scan tool at them
and they can fix anything. That mentality is why we are
where we are at now. I continue to strive to be the best I
can be and help the young guys that I have brought into our
shop but its disheartening to know what they are faced with
and to be honest if any left for other opportunities I could
not really fault them.
My dealer is unique in that they do
what they can to help the techs which is why we have an
established base without the normal constant turmoil and
turnover of most dealers but there is only so much they can
do as well. Customers and manufacturers share the same
traits neither want to pay for repairs let alone diagnosis
and are constantly price shopping as if they are buying a
cellphone or tv, but they are the first to complain and call
the entire industry as incompetent when their vehicle is not
"fixed" right the first time even though they went the
cheapest route first. I find it somewhat absurd that the
people who engineer, design, build and profit from a vehicle
are also the ones that set the times they charge themselves
for a repair that affects their bottom line, bonuses, stock
prices and shareholder enthusiasm. I doubt they would ever
shortchange on the repair end to make the bottom line look
good now would they?
Which he did--$5 a day when GM and Chrysler were paying 1/2 that.
It seems that every time we turn around someone else is claiming how competent they are, and how incompetent techs are. But did you notice when I put out some real examples of the work that some of us do suddenly no-one wanted to accept the challenge(s)? Being able to change your own oil, or replace a light bulb doesn't represent what a technicians responsibilities are job in, and job out. Then we have all of the examples about how cheap and/or free is so important, but where are the comments about that Ford tech having some twenty hours into a nightmare car where everyone else involved is getting to be adequately compensated for the effort except him? (He's been paid about four) Even the consumer will be taken care of if the car defies repair, but no-one seems to care about the tech that is unless he gives in and starts overselling services in order to try and earn a paycheck, and of course be productive enough to not lose his job. (Keep in mind if he does that and someone complains he will lose his job anyway)
Ohenry had a great line, "If you need a job real bad, we have a really bad job for you". That really fits what I've been talking about. The first step to changing the trade really starts with consumers stepping up and demanding that the O.E's find a better way to make sure that the techs they need to have for you are competent, trained, and happy in their jobs. The problem still remains however that a technician workforce that can make your car last longer and at a cost that is more reasonable than replacing it isn't in the manufacturers, and the dealerships primary interest. Every attack on techs, justified or otherwise serves their need to make replacing a car more enticing that fixing it. It's high time you all realize what its been costing you to keep having those foxes guarding the hen-house.
What I have noticed is that you write contradictory posts in which you pick and choose what you feel like replying to. Very little credit is handed out when someone does nail an answer. That happened to me and all I got was a "yup". I guess I should be glad of the yup mind you..but not a week later you have no memory of anyone who does try to take shot at some of these things that are, already numerous times admittedly out of our element?
You put up challenges and is it any wonder no one (or few) here decide to accept a part challenge? If they make a slight slip of the tongue in describing something, you berate what ever their attempt was. Who needs that crap? Furthermore, you know dang well there are probably no readers who come here, can challenge the majority of these problems you post. How would YOU do in our shoes with none of these 100k $ pieces of equipment that you go for immediately? I think you like an audience that strokes your ego, every bit as much as your desire to use the venue to spread the word that the Ford tech and yourself have been saying this past year. You want to be appreciated and be on the receiving end of compliments, yet you are not very good at reciprocating.
I went to the blog and read the last update you mentioned but still don't know if you fixed the car or not? Or what exactly was the fix? You surely can't be afraid of giving away to any of us silver bullets on that problem?
but where are the comments about that Ford tech having some twenty hours into a nightmare car where everyone else involved is getting to be adequately compensated for the effort except him?
I often end up using hours on the phone, PC, making arrangements, explanations, clarifications, emailing etc on jobs that I'm actually on sometimes only 2 or 2.5 hours. It's not so bad if the downtime is spent when the job renders you 20 to 40 hours, but small jobs happen more often and often use up a surprising amt of downtime.
It's been mentioned more than once before, but not sure why you don't seem to get it...that if the tables were reversed and you were on some other specialty forum (not yours) and you were entirely out of your element, how would you feel if what you did challenge or answer was shot down with belittling and berating? And remember...sometimes what you challenge you did ok...wouldn't you be a bit peeved if the forum specialist pooh poohed anything you wrote? Now if you want to drive what few readers you have here away, well that might be working for you...or was this just another attempt at stimulating forum activity once again?
And finally...there is simply no excuse you can give, no matter how elaborate and convincing the rationalization, for a tech to have to make work for himself due to issues with the upper management, by stealing or selling unneeded work. NONE!!! It's not that I personally am not unsympathetic to the situation but I am of the mind that just cuz heat may put pressure on you in order for you to survive, cuz the system sucks, then if it goes against your basic assumedly healthy moral conduct, (by basically stealing) then get out of that line of work. If you don't like the way they treat the system then get out of it and do something else and let the fall out repercussions prevail. If the manufacturers have to send their entire fleet of engineers to "Little Rock Nowhere", to fix something they sold under wty cuz there aren't any techs available cuz they drove them out of the industry, then let them sort it out.
Or maybe just go all White Lightning on the big Glass House..
Take one for the team??
How's that? :confuse:
What type of clout do we the consumer have to
demand anything from O.E' s? Boycott every single manufacturer and threaten to ride bikes instead of cars?
Any change will have to come from dealerships and the techs themselves. I say Union! Union! UNION!!!!!!!
Seems you haven't noticed or don't care when others ignore direct questions, why the double standard?
That happened to me and all I got was a "yup"
I'm sorry were you expecting trophy or something? I've made more than one mention to the strategy of demonstrating exactly what it is like being a technician but just saying what its like as never gotten a response. By treating people here exactly as we get treated you don't realize it but what I have done is achieved my goal. You got something right, gee that's nice. If you were a tech that's expected of you and remember you are only as good as the next time you fail. It really sucks to be treated that way, doesn't it?
You put up challenges and is it any wonder no one (or few) here decide to accept a part challenge? If they make a slight slip of the tongue in describing something, you berate what ever their attempt was. Who needs that crap?
BINGO!!! Nobody does, just go back to that Ford techs post and imagine what he is going though. He opens his post with this statement "
I am a 30 year plus tech, Master Ford, ASE Master, Evening Adjunct Automotive
Instructor, and constantly reading, watching, taking any
kind of training on anything automotive that I can but I am
beginning to doubt myself and my industry
Furthermore, you know dang well there are probably no readers who come here, can challenge the majority of these problems you post.
Apparently you've missed the attempts to suggest you can just google and find all the answers to any problem with any car.
How would YOU do in our shoes with none of these 100k $ pieces of equipment that you go for immediately
Let's leave this one for another day. With close to forty years as a professional technician there are many things that I do with nothing but a DVOM and a schematic.
I think you like an audience that strokes your ego, every bit as much as your desire to use the venue to spread the word that the Ford tech and yourself have been saying this past year. You want to be appreciated and be on the receiving end of compliments, yet you are not very good at reciprocating.
Meet me somewhere else other than here and then try and judge me if you must. I'll remind you that I only came here because of Mr. Reeds involvement with that NBC sting where he was presented as "an expert" and was all about criticizing the trade and what I found when I got here was articles of his that expose him as anything but an expert.
It's been mentioned more than once before, but not sure why you don't seem to get it...that if the tables were reversed and you were on some other specialty forum (not yours) and you were entirely out of your element, how would you feel if what you did challenge or answer was shot down with belittling and berating?
I'm not so inclined as to attempt to tell anyone that I am so proficient in their careers to any level that I would even try and guess how to do their job. Maybe you've missed the fact that 50% of what goes on is always about how talented someone else is if they can change a light bulb themselves. At the same time, what you have been seeing here again is how techs get treated and you don't have to look any further than around some of the forums here to get proof of that. You don't like being treated the way techs get treated, yea I get that and that's been the whole point that I have been making.
And finally...there is simply no excuse you can give, no matter how elaborate and convincing the rationalization, for a tech to have to make work for himself due to issues with the upper management, by stealing or selling un-needed work. NONE!!!
I want you to, go back over the last few posts that you have written towards me and ask yourself if they really depict who you see yourself as. I don't think that they do. If you notice I've managed to push you into acting out of character. It's not about making any kind of an excuses for those who do wrong this is all about putting the real working conditions out there so that the techs the consumer needs dont end up quitting. Let's keep the horse in front of the cart here. When all I did as push, and push and gave no recognition for any success you started to lose your way and you don't even have trying to earn a living the whole time hanging over you. Two wrongs don't make a right, but stop only blaming the tech for the second wrong and leaving the first one in place unquestioned.
Often through the months of this I've thought of the treatment of educators in the public schools (and charters) by their administration and the state governments and even the federal government. I see parallels with the complaints about the treatment by the automakers, the dealership owners, etc..
I can only suggest what teachers are told to do by various nonprofessionals in the field of education when teachers decide that their education, abilities, and performance against all odds in their jobs deserve more pay and benefits. They are told to get another job if they don't like it. They are told that they knew what the job pays when they took the job. They are told that they are "just" a teacher and they don't know how the whole system works.
This all being stated by politicians in the statehouse who can barely spell algebra and who are in the legislature because there are too many lawyers out fighting for clients so they took an easy out and got elected to office. I see administrators who are getting huge pay for sitting in an office telling everyone how to do it--the Peter Principle in many cases. And those same administrators set up a system where they could retire and then be employed in the same job collecting double pay, retirement and their regular pay. By the time teachers were retirement age, they were too burned out from actually working to think of retiring and getting rehired, if a relative of someone in administration or the school board wasn't already given the job because they were younger, cheaper, and related.
So after 30.5 years of my wife's experiences in the work world like that, I was happy she could retire with a moderate retirement into which she had paid much more than into social security and could enjoy. So she retired and doesn't whine, *itch, or moan about the mistreatment of the current and past. She just enjoys and tells everyone how they should be doing the job in elementary education.
I can see parallels for mechanics who need to leave the stress of the system behind and start enjoying life. Leave behind the feelings of hostility that eat away a person from the inside.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Thumbs up. We need a "Like" button.
Thank you.
I thought it was a good parable.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If it is then let's take away the ability for her to retire as she did and level the playing field a bit.
BTW did you notice that the TV station sting on Jiffy Lube disappeared as fast as it appeared? They were on the right track going after the low to midde management there but stopped short of finishing the job, any wonder why they did that?
So does that mean they put profit ahead of consumer needs?
Exactly. I like my job but it certainly isn't my passion. When I leave the office at the end of the day I am finished with work. Period. I don't even think about upcoming cases until the next day- unless it's a complex case that I really need to be on top of. I know more than a few judges and attorneys who hate their job and keep plugging on. Not me; if I disliked my work that much I would be out the door.
As for my automotive abilities, I like to know enough about the cars that I own or hope to own someday- which is why I have zero interest in diagnosing Hyundai or Ford SUV woes.
I guess it's the latent engineer in me, I always want to know as much about a car/bike/electronic gadget as I can before I buy it(back in the early '90s I drove my wife nuts shopping CD players). And, being the unreasonable person that I am, I expect those who sell/service those items to know at least as much as I do. And I'll have to say, I find much more rank incompetence and outrageous billing examples among "professional" home theater installers than I do among auto mechanics...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Bottom line, today's technicians have a tough life. They have to be learning constantly and they spend thousands of dollars on tools.
It used to be, a top mechanic could make decent money. Never great money except in rare instances but enough to raise a family and live a modest life.
The "gravy jobs" of yesterday are gone. This is why they create their own "gravy" by pushing services of marginal worth such as fuel injection flushes etc. I honestly can't blame them.
We can say..." You knew what you were getting into" or " hey, if you don't like it, quit and do something else"
But, it's not that easy. I wish I had a solution. We are facing a talent drain as never before as young people are being discouraged to go into the field.
I'm afraid it's only going to get worse.
Well they dish out what their audience likes, up to a point. The audience likes to see crooked garages busted on camera. We ALL like to see OTHER people punished for their sins after all.
But media doesn't want audiences to think TOO much or get TOO uncomfortable.
And if advertisers complain, the content gets pulled, definitely.
The business model of media is to take you, the audience, and sell you to another corporation.
Is that sour grapes?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
At min wage of $7.25, it takes about 14 hours to gross the money to net out $79. But that's the kid who didn't go to college, helping the mechanic send his kid to college. A kid trying to keep his beater running to get him to his min wage job. No wonder there's an entitlement society brewing out there. And I feel for the mechanic who wonders why there are not many customers.
My indy mechanic charges a good 40% more per hour than that, and he works his butt off, often putting in ~60 hour weeks. On the plus side, he's very good. He no doubt makes decent money too (always a line of customers), but I wouldn't want to put in those hours.
It wasn't any different when I was a kid. I used to scrounge through junkyards for parts to keep my beaters running.
Is that sour grapes?
I suspect there would be plenty of she didn't have that retirement.
I disagree
To me, the person out there planning to better himself and yet working his butt off for $7.85/hr does not have an entitlement mentality. It's very possible that his employer spent lots of years working for a lot less than $7.85/hr, so whatever leverage he has, he EARNED it too. This is a capitalist country, for a little while longer.
The entitlement mentality was summed up by the on campus interview where the 6' 3" 215 lb student answered.."What are you gonna do? Work?" when asked why he wanted college aid to pay for his college education.
I'm as entitled to a decent return on my savings as a worker is entitled a living wage. Sadly, under the money printing party going on, my return is negative but I wont strike for a doubling of interest rates. Double -2% is negative 4%. Bad Idea!! We are all losing in the current economy. Only 2.8% of the so called 963,000 jobs created in the US this year are full-time jobs. Incredibly sad.
This is NOT a capitalist country. Study economic theory. This a market oligarchy. Capitalism implies some kind of meritocracy with egalitarian principles , which are not really out there for many people.
If someone keeps money in a plain old savings/money market account, they are entitled to the return connected to the risk or effort involved, which isn't much. Put your money to work, it's up to you. Not just losing in the current economy, the average worker has been losing for a few decades.
many people who are "successful" are completely clueless as to how many breaks they were cut merely by being in the right place at the right time.
A country that doesn't invest heavily in the education and health of its citizens is doomed to failure.
In a person keeps their money in a savings account inflation will more than eat up the miserable interest they would make!
Sorry but we ARE a capitalist country at least for the time being but this is eroding.