A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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Comments

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2013
    Well, I was between Clovis and Roswell NM when I first tried to reply and the van just rolled over 190,000 miles on the odometer. There was nothing around, much less a Nissan dealer, when I lost cell coverage 30 minutes ago.

    But your point about the Interstate is a good one, and if I had a commute I would have fixed the belt per the 105k recommendation. I knew the engine was non-interference and the only wrinkle fixing it was having to go back to the shop when my mechanic got the belt a tooth off.

    I coached my wife about what to expect if the belt broke while she was driving and spent the $5 a year for towing insurance. When the belt did break, I knew immediately what happened. We were in a good spot for the breakdown, although it was a bit chilly.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    You took your chances and got lucky.

    It freeways in So. California have eliminated the "breakdown" lanes on the right and converted them to full traffic lanes. If a person were to have engine failure, it could be a dangerous event.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2013
    Fully agree. But most of my driving is rural with the odd road trip. Then again, by planning for the breakdown contingency, maybe we keep exit paths more in mind than most drivers.

    Back to risk taking, I sleep well at night with no life insurance or extended warranty coverage on my cars, and I've been known to eat salads in Mexico, lol.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    We are different. I just wouldn't want to constantly look for exit paths etc. I'll just replace it and relax a bit.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    You missed that module in driver's ed, eh? :-)

    (yeah, I know the emotorcons are broken but I figure they'll be fixed one day and the smiley will show up. Be prepared.)
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,699
    edited August 2013
    >When the belt did break, I knew immediately what happened. We were in a good spot for the breakdown, although it was a bit chilly.

    I had a timing belt break on my Buick in a good spot. I had just slowed for a stoplight on the highway and was making a right turn. I rolled to a stop on the berm just away from the corner.

    I didn't realize the belt had given symptoms a couple times earlier with slight misses as it was skipped a cog or something. No more timing belts for me. (famous last words.)

    50,000 miles was recommended change point. Failed me at 49,000.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2013
    Shoot, just realized I should have asked my mechanic to show me the old belt and maybe point out the cracks or whatever. I didn't pick up on anything different on the van before the belt broke.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    A Buick with a timing belt? Really?? Which model?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    " No more timing belts for me"

    A lot of cars used to use a nylon timing gear. These could and often would fail suddenly and often, engine damage would be the result.

    Pontiacs were REALLY good that this happening but it wasn't limited to them.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    (yeah, I know the emotorcons are broken but I figure they'll be fixed one day and the smiley will show up. Be prepared.)

    Yea forums work really great since they fixed them. (sarc)
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    Buick Skyhawk used a timing belt on the Brazilian 2.0l.

    Timing belts have some advantages over chains when it comes to designing an engine. You can find one of those advantages with Fords 3.7l Ecoboost as compared to GM's engines simply by looking at the engine oil specification. By using a belt Ford can concentrate on other engine needs and not have to be as strict as GM's dexos1 has to be. GM's are running timing chains and that's one of the reasons that the dexos1 spec is so important, search GM timing chain stretch or failure complaints and you'll find a whole lot of people who failed to use an oil that really met GM's specification.

    I've diagnosed four timing chain failures (two Nissans, one Honda and one Acura) in the last two months and didn't get to fix any of them. They all estimated in the $1500 - $2000 range and two of them also required machine shop charges for what ever damage was done to the head and valves on top of that.
  • bolivarbolivar Member Posts: 2,316
    edited August 2013
    I have a Corvette and dying batteries are always a topic when discussing these cars. People have looked at the drain after they are shut down. What is reported is that they 'go to sleep' in 2 or 3 step-down stages. When first shut down, the current drain is high, then it drops, then it drops again. This takes several minutes to complete.

    If you check your car again, you should watch the current draw for several minutes to see if it also steps down in power consumption after shutdown.

    Also, on newer cars with their complicated electronics, adding aftermarket alarms, remote start, and audio are asking for dead battery problems.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    When we got to the shop Friday morning there was a white 2002 Taurus sitting there that had been towed in the night before. There is some history on this car, it's typically been worked on by a family friend and about two months ago was towed into our shop after several failed attempts to solve a no-start had to jump the car to start complaint. That turned out to be a combination of issues which included a battery that developed a high rate of self discharge and that was brought about by the owners typical use where she doesn't drive the car long enough each time she starts the car to fully recharge the battery. To maintain a strong battery an average trip should be around five miles with no accessories and could easily be more than ten miles during conditions when a lot of electrical power is being used. (aka headlights, defrosters, wipers, etcetera) The customers average trip is under two miles and only on rare occasions drives five to ten miles. That kind of use over time depletes the batteries reserve capacity and has it operating under a condition of a low state of charge and that leads to sulfation and battery failure. There was a note that said the car would not start, would not crank. The family friend had already replaced the alternator even though it tested OK at the parts store, and had removed and then re-installed the starter after it was tested and shown to be OK. The parts store said that the car needed a new battery.

    Think about how you would approach this car and begin your diagnostics. The answer and findings will be in separate posts in my blog.

    http://johng673.blogspot.com/
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    What is reported is that they 'go to sleep' in 2 or 3 step-down stages. When first shut down, the current drain is high, then it drops, then it drops again. This takes several minutes to complete.

    We see cars that take twenty minutes before they truly reach low power status and disturbing them in any fashion can cause the whole routine to reset. Testing is typically done with a low amps current probe and an oscilloscope to measure the current drain and then we use a DVOM (digital volt/ohm meter) that measures into the micro-volt (1/1,000,000v) range to measure the voltage drops across the fuses. In years past we would simply pull fuses and find out which circuit was drawing power but today that can have unintended consequences and cause additional drains when we wake modules up by pulling and reinstalling a fuse or even allow a module that was falsely powering a circuit to depower it on us and then we lose our chance to find the problem until the next time that it acts up.

    For the really tough ones I have three low amps probes that can be put to use and I can leap-frog them as I follow the current flow through the vehicle to the source of the problem. I do roughly the same routine with the current probes to find the cause of a failure that results in a blown fuse.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2013
    So, should I keep my battery on a trickle charge since I don't drive that much at home? The Subaru won't move all month.

    I don't mind timing belts so much but don't like interference engines. Even newer belts within their rated lifespan can break with expensive consequences.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,699
    edited August 2013
    >A Buick with a timing belt? Really?? Which model?

    I thought that would get someone's ear. It was a 1985 Skyhawk with the special 1.8 L engine. The 2.0 L was standard. But the equivalent of Edmund's groupies here at that time said the 1.8 L was much peppier. So I followed the advice of the on-paper folk then as I would the on-line folk's advice today.

    I think the belt was loose from the beginning. I don't recall if the replacement was 50,000 mi or it was to be checked at the 50,000 mi checkup.

    Towed home. Replaced it myself at home with a loaner wrench for the project from my service manager at the dealer (crowsfoot wrench). Service manager had earned a customer for life with that gesture. Do you get that kind of help from your dealer today?

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/1987_Buick_SkyHawk_Cust- om.jpg/320px-1987_Buick_SkyHawk_Custom.jpg

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    Yea it was a 1.8l in 1985, it went to 2.0 a few years later. The 2.0 in 85 was an overhead valve, totally different engine.

    We had a campaign on that timing belt and replaced dozens under warranty. It paid .6 hours.
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Back in 1983, Berkshire Hathaway stock was $737 per share. Too bad we didn't buy a few shares --- me from my home equity and you from replacing timing belts. It's trading at $172,000 today.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,722
    Gimme, the truck is a 3/4 ton with a "camper package" (sway bars and extra rear leaf, IIRC). The drivetrain is a 307 V8 with 4-speed Muncie, 2WD (really 1WD, but two wheels do take turns at it). I've never cracked the engine open.

    I ended up selling that 11' cab-over Banner camper, which was built for it in 1969, about six years ago. I wanted to keep it just for the originality of it all, but it had structural issues that prevented it from being used on the road. It still stayed nice and dry on the inside, though, so we used it as staging quarters while we built our house (lived in it for about seven months). I sold it to a friend who did the same, and I've heard it has made a few rounds of serving such duty, so it's probably just about used up by now; especially considering that I was the only owner that actually had any real investment in it (emotional or otherwise!).

    Thanks for all the discussion on batteries; again, very informative stuff!
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    Back in 1983, Berkshire Hathaway stock was $737 per share.

    That wouldn't have done me any good, back in 1983 I was making about $7.25/hr. There was no way I could spend $70. on a share of something let alone $700....
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/outside/26252/?requestedDocId=26252

    You got to see it to believe it. BTW it does not meet the requirements for the new R2R Massachusettes law.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah but say a 4 or 5 bay indie Benz specialist bought it--he could pay that off fairly quickly don't you think?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I could have bought Apple at $12.50, Google at $88, Facebook at $19 (that one is still possible, lol). I did get some Ford at $5.

    Tire kicked a used Porsche 914 back in '76 or so. Sometimes you do dodge bullets.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    Yeah but say a 4 or 5 bay indie Benz specialist bought it--he could pay that off fairly quickly don't you think?

    First, it never gets paid off, the yearly updates are $7500. But if they did buy it, $23,000 plus the sales tax is $24380. If it is financed the rate will likely be 9.9% for three years, so the payments would be about $785. a month. The problem is that there will be many things that they can do with aftermarket tools, so the O.E. tool only fills the gap between what the aftermarket tools are capable of and what the shop ultimately needs. With Mercedes that's likely 30%-40%. Figuring two diagnostics a day per tech, (four bays would mean two techs) 22 days a month that would be eighty eight diagnostic routines. If we go on the high side at 40% that would be 35 a month that the Mercedes tool is required. That means the first $22.50 of the diagnostic fee goes straight towards supporting the tool.

    So if the average diagnostic fee in the area is $100, they would have to be closer to $125. So what do you think would happen when consumers call around and ask about price first?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That's about what I figured but I had no idea the updates cost THAT much. Are you quite sure about that? $7500 for a software download?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    My Gawd! 7500.00???

    I thought hand tools were expensive!
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,551
    I am not a techie (auto or computer!), but at this point, isn't it possible/plausible to do this "virtual", over the internet? Meaning instead of having to buy a stand alone tool, just plug in through a PC to an internet location, and just pay per use/minute/something?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    That's essentially how they are going to do it, only you supply your own laptop/I-pad/PC and they provide the equipment that goes in-between the shops PC and the vehicle. All of the software is essentially sitting on a server in Germany and its just a pass through via the net. That lets them control access to subscriptions and if you fail to pay for the update, then they turn it off and you will be shut down until it is restored.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    That is the current price for yearly updates for the system that they have out there today. It could change with the new system, if it does do you think it would come down?

    BTW the present system lasted about six years and is being replaced by this one. That routine is expected to continue so the price for six years is really something like,,,,

    $24380 initial, plus five yearly updates at $7500+tx which is $7950. Assuming it runs six years before it is replaced the cost is $64130.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    Think about how you would approach this car and begin your diagnostics. The answer and findings will be in separate posts in my blog.

    http://johng673.blogspot.com/

    I put up the final response to that repair.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    So, it came down to the fact that she gave you the wrong (dummy) key?

    Reminds me of the story I heard about a call to a PC help desk. Caller said he/she couldn't see anything on the monitor. No matter what he did, nothing showed up. The tech patiently walked the customer through the standard troubleshooting steps, until they got to the point when the tech wanted the customer to reset the PC. Cutomer replied "well, I can't see the reset button". "Why", the tech asked. "Because all the lights are off because we lost electricity", replied the cutomer! Duhhh!
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    So, it came down to the fact that she gave you the wrong (dummy) key?

    Yep, who ever does stuff to her car at home grabbed that key and started all of the craziness. They spent three days doing all kinds of things to the car before they finally had it towed it in.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,393
    edited August 2013
    I stopped by the local indie shop I use for the Jeep(and occasionally for the Mazda) to check on a few things. My usual tech came into the office to ask if I knew of any hidden "gotchas" involving the R&R of the cylinder head on an M50TU that a customer was bringing in. The shop uses ALLDATA and I said that it should suffice. Of course, the primary cause of head gasket failure or a cracked head on a BMW is an idiot owner who drove the car after the temp needle pegged(of course the "gauge" is no more than a fancy warning light since the needle movement is buffered so as not to disturb feeble minded owners). He told me the owner had noticed it losing coolant after it overheated MULTIPLE TIMES. Imbecile.
    My wife and son know that driving a BMW with the needle in the red zone is THE Unpardonable Sin, so when the expansion tank let go on his X3 my son immediately switched it off and coasted into a parking lot.
    Meanwhile, the shop owner is on the phone with an owner of a Ford V6 trying to explain that it is false economy to replace only one head gasket. Reminds me of the idiot at my BMW indie who asked it the shop could just change the pads on ONE wheel...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,722
    Wow! Hahahaha; you come across some crazy stuff! What was the customer's reaction in the end? I would think her to be rather grateful to you for your excellent diagnostic skills, but then again she may have simply focused on all the hullabaloo that went on before it came to you this time!
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    edited August 2013
    Wow! Hahahaha; you come across some crazy stuff! What was the customer's reaction in the end?

    Her reaction was relief and she appreciated the fact that now all three keys work. She had no idea that the car could be trained to accept the key so easily.

    As far as crazy stuff, I have thousands of cases of crazy stuff that I can put out here. We have to be on our game 100% of the time or a diagnostic routine can lead down some dark rabbit holes in a hurry.

    I would think her to be rather grateful to you for your excellent diagnostic skills

    Our fee to diagnose the problem and program her key was our minimum 1/2 an hours time at our diagnostic rate. So this was all done for under $70. The kicker was when she told me that she then had to take the car back to the DIY'er guy to have him do her brakes now that it was running again, the same guy that when given the wrong key couldn't figure out why the car wouldn't start.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The Mickey Mouse owner was at fault for not using Dexos 14.07 AK47 oil with anti-rodent properties.

    Mouse feces in lube system causes engine damage - is this really possible?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    There's a lot of nonsense in that thread, from the "diagnosis" to the responses. Are you asking for speculation as to how organic material was discovered inside a lubrication passage? I can make up some ideas if you insist but what good would that do? Wouldn't they just be invitations for abuse?

    It is kind of funny though for anyone to suggest that if rodent droppings have really been discovered that they could have made it through the filter intact and remain recognizable. If this really did happen it would be far more likely that the filter contained contamination before it was installed onto the engine. The question from there is if it occurred that way was it an accidental introduction or was it sabotage?

    One point that I find suspicious is that very few shops even touch a short block anymore. If an engine comes in damaged, they simply replace it without tearing anything apart. The tech doesn't get paid enough to do the job, let alone spend sixty seconds looking around to try and figure out why it happened.
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Do shops do "valve jobs" anymore ? Back in the 70's and 80's, I had a VW, Ford and Chevy that needed them. With all the multi-valve cylinder heads in todays cars, I would imagine that could get pricey.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2013
    Not asking for anything; just enjoyed the Q and A. Hope you did too.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    In the "old days" every shop had a Sioux valve machine and hard seat grinder.

    Not anymore. Valve jobs are a thing of the past for the most part anyway.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Now if they had said "squirrel turd", well then, case closed!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Sure! a squirrel or better yet a raccoon would probably be capable of unscrewing the oil cap and dropping a deuce!
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    Do shops do "valve jobs" anymore ?

    Sure, but not the way that I learned to do them back in the 70's. When we prove that a cylinder has lost compression and its a valve leak the head gets pulled and sent to a machine shop that specializes in cylinder head reconditioning. I still have valve resurface equipment and use it for small engines and I can still do older cast iron heads when its appropriate but its outclassed for the stuff that I see on a daily basis.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,850
    edited August 2013
    "The Mickey Mouse owner was at fault for not using Dexos 14.07 AK47 oil with anti-rodent properties

    Maybe the owner is at fault if he does the work himself. As I have pointed out in responding to that question imagining the debris getting introduced to the engine and making it past the filter (and the pick up screen, and the pump etc)is quite a stretch, however suspecting that it was in the filter before it was installed on the engine is quite plausible.

    The part no-one else ever considers is if this is repaired under warranty the tech doing the work loses money on the deal, if this was genuinely the vehicle owners fault, then that wouldn't be fair for the tech. People want to do work themselves, and they get convinced that its "so easy" they in turn fail to understand and accept all of the risks. Its an expensive lesson to learn but if nothing else changes in the facts as presented and he does service the car himself then this should now be between him and his filter source, not him and GM. JMHO.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2013
    The part no-one else ever considers is if this is repaired under warranty the tech doing the work loses money on the deal

    I don't think consumers care - if the tech is working for nothing the tech needs to do something about it. Trying to get me, the customer, to care enough to complain to the dealer or manufacturer is going to be a waste of energy.

    Fine, I'm educated now and know that techs get screwed over by dealers. Big whoop, I have my own stuff to deal with. So it's not my problem - my problem is getting my car fixed right the first time without having to take out a second mortgage. Anything else is background noise to the consumer.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    No, of course the consumers don't care. All they want is their car fixed for free under warranty or pay as little as possible if it's not warrantied.

    They don't care, nor should they really.

    They may start to care down the road as tech leave the business and their replacements aren't there to take their places.

    Nobody cares until they are personally affected.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If auto techs are counting on car owners to save them, well good luck with that.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2013
    And when I can't get my car fixed, I'm going to be yelling at the local dealer so they'll be taking most of the heat.

    With the strong franchise laws in every state, it doesn't seem like it'd be too hard for a bigger dealer group just to sue GM or Ford or whoever for requiring unrealistic warranty payment rates. They'd have the sales numbers and state laws to wield a bit of clout, and the manufacture would be cutting their own sales numbers if they started playing games with allocations.

    Wonder where NADA is in this debate?
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    In St. Louis, all the new car dealer techs are union. They negotiate pay and work conditions. Some dealers are better to work for than others. A number of years ago they went on strike for a while and settled. I don't remember how long they were out but there hasn't been any labor issues in the news since.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I didn't realize unions in shops still existed!

    I can't imagine what their labor rates must be!
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