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The Riv might make it to 200k miles on the first replacement battery. It's not a stretch to think the original lasted 8 yrs since I don't garage the car and am on yr 10 on the battery put in it the day I bought it.
That's easy, they'd rather be selling another new car than see people fix the one they already have.
And when I can't get my car fixed, I'm going to be yelling at the local dealer so they'll be taking most of the heat.
Yell all you want, and then storm out and go down the street to a different dealer. They aren't worried about it because there will be someone headed back the other direction. Remember when you said something to the effect that you'd like to have the hood welded shut? It might as well be if you can't find anyone qualified to do anything underneath it anyway.
With the strong franchise laws in every state, it doesn't seem like it'd be too hard for a bigger dealer group just to sue GM or Ford or whoever for requiring unrealistic warranty payment rates.
What do they really care? As it stands right now they pay the techs about 20% of what the manufacturer pays them. When the manufacturer doesn't pay for something, the tech doesn't get paid to do it so the dealer doesn't actually lose. In fact they just turn around and pressure the tech to find a way to generate revenues to offset what isn't paid, or isn't paid correctly and it's totally up to the tech to figure out how to make money, leave, or get told to leave. You do realize we are right back to why they sell so many services, right?
Jumped it back to life and it has started every time since.
Checking the bill, I didn't see a new MAF on it, so I called him and he said by mistake they had 2 bills going.
When I went over to pay for it, he just charged me for the part, no labor, and said it was because I honest about calling to pay the rest of the bill.
Even without unions, 100.00/hr is pretty common with a lot of shops charging even more than that.
Three years ago, I was with a buddy in Orange County CA and his Mercedes Dealer was charging 160.00/hr. No doubt even higher now!
Who stole my emoticons? :-(
O.k isell, I remember you saying a union wouldn't work. Looks like good ole Jipster was......Yes... right again! :-)-
Too much power to unions has proven to be bad for some businesses. But, it's situations like our car techs find themselves in ...is why labor unions became so popular in the first place. The " we'll screw you over if we can" mentality never goes out of style.
And jayrider, who was chief union Stewart of that labor strike? Was it Bozo?
Edited- emoticons working with a little help.
http://www.dws.state.nm.us/eds/EDS2013May/PAGE0206.HTM
http://www.dws.state.nm.us/eds/EDS2013May/3502042140/49-3023.htm
There you go.
The fact that the water pump and the steering gear went out at 3 years/ 19719 miles says a lot about the vehicle.
Seems there are several questions here, and one of them is why didn't the dealer attend to the power steering leak? The O.E.'s don't want the techs finding things wrong and inflating repair bills any more than anyone else does. When the car comes in under the road side assistance they are expected to fix exactly what it came in for and nothing else. Every repair event adds to the shops total monthly allowance for warranty expenses and then its averaged against what every other dealer turns in. If a dealership runs a higher percentage of repairs than the average then they open the doors to get themselves audited. Unless a problem prevents safe and normal vehicle operation the expectation is that you would now go back to your selling dealer and they will attend to this. Consider this as well, chances are nobody even stocks the rack or the seal kit for it as that would be an uncommon failure so trying to fix it might delay the owner on their trip anyway.
In some ways finding the power steering leak is more defensive on their part than it is about doing any repair on it. By identifying its existence they protect themselves from being blamed for it. Which leads to a question, have you been adding power steering fluid? If not then its probably just a little loss from the end seal and not that big of a deal. I used to have to repair racks under warranty, and don't know if they would still repair them or replace it. If I could remove and replace the seal without taking the rack out of the car, and without disturbing the alignment by not having to take the tie rod apart I could probably beat the warranty time, otherwise I'd lose about an hour on the deal.
The fact that the water pump and the steering gear went out at 3 years/ 19719 miles says a lot about the vehicle.
I have heard about some water pump issues and they are taking care of them exactly as should be expected under the warranty. GM's water pump failure rate is no where near as high as Toyota's with their electric water pumps that they started putting on the Prius in 2010. GM's issue with their pump which was designed to be a lifetime component apparently came down to a machining issue for the ceramic seal and they had a higher than expected failure rate. GM didn't make that seal, one of their vendors did. Once they found the issue it has been corrected, that's just the way that it works and from a techs POV I see a seal that occasionally fails and don't judge the entire vehicle by that. (Heck I'm just glad they don't hand us a kit and say"Fix the pump" like we did years ago).
In the end the tech did exactly what he/she is supposed to do, fixed something that interrupted your travel plans. Under warranty rate a top tech at best broke even doing that repair, then they have him/her look the car over for the courtesy check at no charge. That means the tech is expected to spend additional time checking the vehicle over, at no additional pay, and he/she discovered what would seem to be a minor fluid leak and recorded it. At this point the tech would be wrong in corporate's eyes if they did anything with that, and are wrong in a consumers eyes if they don't. Even then as I mentioned earlier if you go 100 miles down the road and then discover you have a power steering leak now the tech gets blamed for causing it somehow if he/she doesn't notate it during the check.
The last thing to think about here is should you complain about them not fixing the power steering leak, the techs CSI (customer satisfaction) rating will suffer the hit.
Interesting analysis that puts the failure into perspective. A supplier problem. Too often, these failures get put into a GM JANG (Just Ain't No Good) category while other brands are givens passes on their failures.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
So are you saying that if my car was towed in for a fluid leak, and while working on the car the tech noticed the air bag light on, or the ABS light, he'd ignore it?
Of course not "ignore it". He/she would have to document it and report it and then if authorized deal with it. It's not the techs call to simply move onto and address that other failure, someone else makes that decision. In fact if the tech doesn't get approval to diagnose and repair even that system before doing so its likely he not only wouldn't be paid for the effort, but could be punished in some form for not following guidelines. Its no different than if it was a customer pay job in that respect. How many of the readers here would be glad to see an extra service done and be expected to pay for that they didn't approve in advance no matter what system was involved.
Did it puke the crankshaft seal yet? My LaCrosse with the same engine did and apparently it's common! That was with around 12k or so.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
I didn't mention the fact that my 3/36 warranty expires on August 28. The fact that the tech at least documented the leak prior to the 28th pretty much guarantees that it will be repaired under the 3/36.
As far as the survey doesn't cost me anything so giving an excellent rating is not a problem. Though I think he should have topped off the p/s fluid.
This is my car, and it has not had any refrigerant added to it. The AC has worked fine up until early last week. Then I noticed while we were on the road, the AC was cold, then not cold, then cold again. The impression was that it was low on refrigerant and the clutch was being commanded off. On Saturday I knew that I was going to have a chance to look at it so I pulled it inside after a quick run to Subway for lunch. It was about an hour later when I got to attach the gages and this is what I found.
The capture of the gage pressures and the explanation are on my blog.
http://johng673.blogspot.com/
It's a pain reading here and then have someone leave us hanging. Just tell us what happened please.
Seems that's all anyone ever wants, the silver bullet answer. The old saying goes give a man a fish and he eats for the day, teach him to fish and he can feed his family forever.
There is a restriction in the system at the expansion valve. It isn't low on refrigerant which if people are to believe the advertisements on TV all someone is supposed to have to do is dump some refrigerant in and that always fixes the cars.
Are you just here to plug your blog these days Doc?
Nope, but when it comes to sharing technical information at that level, what's really in it for me if I do it here? I give away too much for free everyday already. JMHO.
In a 3 year old car? Wow. Is that a common failure for Fords of that era?
My leSabre is 11 years old and has never been touched for air conditioning.
My other leSabre is 15 years and only had a few ounces of freon that I added to replace slight seepage.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Just because one vehicle has a problem it does not reflect on every car that a manufacturer has produced. This is not a reflection on the vehicle or the manufacturer but there is more to the story. The gage pressures are too high for being at rest, way too high. Do you think they got that way on their own? I don't.
I put the idea of the expansion valve being restricted by desiccant in the post because if you have an untampered system that is the "most likely possibility". But once someone with no training tries to do something with the system and they add refrigerant, which possibly includes a sealant all kinds of things can go wrong and this is just what a tech see's on the first look. For one thing the manufactures of those DIY AC kits never talk about recovering, and then evacuating the system. Not doing the job correctly can leave air (a noncondensible) in the system as well as moisture. Even worse sealants typically react to moisture and if there is some in the system then it will turn into an epoxy inside the system and that can lead to component damage and restrictions.
At this point I haven't even opened the system up, nor run my identifier on it.
As soon as I saw the static pressures I knew that I don't just have a broken car, someone in the past serviced it incorrectly. Just how much damage they have done by that is yet to be determined, but like the cobblers kids run around shoe less, my cars have to wait until after the customers needs are addressed. Keep watching the blog as I upload the rest of the findings. Again the system is not only restricted, its overcharged and its been that way since before we bought it second hand. The question is exactly what am I going to find when I do open this up? I might even be adding an inline filter after the drier to catch any other contamination. Next I'll be doing an identification so that I know what is in the system and then a sealant test before I attempt recovery of the refrigerant.
Monday afternoon the customer calls and reports the same symptoms of surging over 2100rpm and the check engine light is on again. We told him to bring it right down and when he showed up it was working just fine again. Pulling the code the P0344 was set in the history and scan data showed “cam lost last”. At this point there wasn’t much else to do but run the customer home and set up my testing connections to prove where the fault was occurring at. The car ran fine the whole way to his home and back down to the shop. Leaving it run in the shop with my wife paying attention to it, the circuit failed at some point because the light was on and scan data showed sync lost, but the signal was fine on the oscilloscope.
Several start and run routines were then performed over the next day and no trouble was identified. When attempting to diagnose a problem like this the only thing that really works consistently when trying to solve them is a good plan and a lot of patience. Many would resort to throwing a camshaft sensor at it and ship it out the door, and of course there is a chance they might be successful. The problem with that approach goes hand in hand with something the customer said during this phase of the testing. He was already losing confidence in the car and started lamenting the idea of replacing it. If a tech guesses and gets it right, the symptom may go away but the customer really has no reason to believe that the car is really repaired and it could act up on him at any time and then he would fear being stranded. The only way to restore his confidence in the vehicle is to be certain that the problem is found. Since leaving it run in the shop wasn’t giving me the information that I needed, the next step is to go on a suicide mission and drive the car and diagnose it when-ever and where-ever the problem occurs. So with the scan tool and the PICO four channel scope connected to the critical circuits it was time to hit the road and hope it acts up.
As luck would have it it didn’t take long to occur, but it did it on one of the worst hills in the area to have a car that wasn’t running right. This hill is about a half a mile long and about four hundred feet high with a blind curve in the middle of it. Here is a screen shot of the camshaft and crankshaft signals while the problem was occurring. The advantage of having both of those signals at the same time is that they share their powers and grounds which are both provided by the PCM. With the crankshaft sensor signal operating normally, and the five volt reference from the PCM to the camshaft sensor visible, the problem had to be inbetween the scope connections and the camshaft sensor.
Armed with this perspective closer examination of the harness and the connector was in order. The camshaft sensor connector isn’t very easy to reach in the car even though its right on the back of the head. (drivers side of the car). One of the tricks is to grab the harness with a hook tool and start pushing and pulling on it to try and get the signal to drop out. That wasn’t successful, but when I put the tool right on the connector for the camshaft sensor I could push downward and the signal went open, and pull the connector back up towards the sensor and it would start working again.
Well that’s great, a new sensor and a new pigtail just four months ago and there is clearly something wrong with one of them. So now it was time to shut the engine down, unplug the connector and pull it up where I could see it and this is what I noticed.
Looking from the connection side one could see that the middle pin is pushed part way out of the connector. Grabbing the wire with a pair of needle nose pliers I could push the pin all the way into place, and then pull it right back out. Great, the new pigtail has a damaged pin, or pin retainer.
Taking the connector apart I could see the plastic retainer was damaged, and looking at the pin closely the terminal space was way too small for the camshaft sensor pin to fit inside. The problem was that the pin was originally flawed, and instead of making a good connection to the sensor, it pushed out of position and simply was touching the middle pin of the camshaft sensor instead of making a proper connection. With the problem confirmed the easiest thing to do was to repair and then secure the pin in place inside the connector.
The vehicle was put back together and road tested again with no more troubles found. We called the customer to let him know what we found and how we fixed it. When the customer came to pick up his car he wanted to know how much he owed, and well the answer to that was nothing of course, this is how we provide a warranty for our customers. From our point of view this shouldn’t have happened so it’s up to us to make it right if and when anything like this ever does occur. All told some two hours of labor time are gone over a pin that probably cost a penny for some machine to make a hundred of them. We take it on the chin for our customers and in the end all that’s really important is that we stood behind the work that we did and the materials that we sold. Hopefully our customers recognize that it’s how we handle the problems that are as much the measure of our shop as are our successes the first time around. Even so, it’s an easy choice to do the right thing, but that doesn’t make it a very fun thing to do.
PS. To see the photos and scope waveforms you'll have to go to my blog.
Sure there was. I used touch back then to "feel" if the system should be or was picking up heat on the low side, and if it concentrated it and was dissipating it on the high side. The other test I did on those was similar to what you see about the refrigerant not equalizing on my Escape. It was very common to find the expansion valves restricted, or sticking on cars like your Sundance. Quite often people resorted to overcharging them and got them to work and believed that they had done enough, but measuring how long it took the pressures to equalize after turning the system off was a dead giveaway to there still being a problem.
Combine those steps with the normal gage pressure readings and the use of several thermometers (ambient temperature, center duct temperature, etc.) and those Chryslers were never a problem to figure out.
BTW my touch method and the theory behind it was accepted and used for ASE test questions for about fifteen years back then. They have since been replaced with the pyrometer style tests.
I'm sure you could pay off the $50k expense of buying one by offering "performance" testing.
Or save a few bucks and build a redneck one. (Jalopnik)
I admire inventive minds like that make a do-around from the commercial norm, work so well.
Off topic, but for fun you should check out some homebuilt log splitters. I have some links buried somewhere I could find if you aren't successful Googling...one has a 50 or 60 ton splitter that will take an 18" block of hardwood hard maple and crunch the thing into splintering bits of wood fibre lookalikes. How? By placing it in the splitter 'sideways'...haha ROTFLMAO..something to see..
If you do end up Googling, you'll run across some 'ram' types too. Some look pretty good but boy there are some, that in a momentary lapse of concentration...wham...there goes your whole hand :sick:
On the subject of the troublesome (only) 3 year old Ford A/C expansion valve debris..surely we can assume (somewhat reasonably?) that even tho doc did not buy it new, surely it wasn't messed with in its first year. Doc has had it two of those years...Quality is Job #1 eh? I'm not convinced.. Even Honda's A/C woes don't cause grief like that so soon..
In the interest of giving GM some credit.. which I rarely do...they do seem to do A/C fairly competently. Or used to at least..not sure about the new ones, and we won't be until some 8 to 10+ years goes buy..
Not really. To get many of the wiring harness faults to show up we need the kinds of G forces put onto the car that only hitting bumps and going around bends can reproduce.
Just trying to push and pull on harnesses doesn't work either. What seems like a reasonable step can make a corroded connection start working correctly and you don't get to have any idea what you disturbed. If you measure it first, then you can concentrate on a section of one wire instead of an entire wiring harness. Then you can start pushing and pulling pn things and you get to see the result on the scope or scan tool.
I'm sure you could pay off the $50k expense of buying one by offering "performance" testing
It is kind of funny that some people pay some pretty healthy fees for "services" like that and we had a girl with an 89 VW in the shop yesterday who didn't want to pay anything to fix a side marker bulb nor the headlights that are aimed so bad she can't see with the high beams on and people flash their lights at her when the low beams are on. Oh well her boyfriend does all of her work.
Spell it out, what's the point here?
When you finally figure out that making baseless assmptions is not the right way to approach anything with servicing a car then you will have made a significant step towards actually helping consumers.
That diagnostic and soon to be repair had the appearance of a simple AC issue suddenly turned into a bit of a mystery as why the pressures measured were so high. Experience with expansion valve systems suggests that the system got overcharged. Overcharging can force the high side pressure much higher than it should be and that pushes sufficient refrigerant through the clogged expansion valve to make the system feel like its working. Until the expansion valve becomes completely restricted that is. It's only when the gages are installed and the static pressures measured that the story comes to light.
But then we have the statement by you that try's to suggest that something else has to have occurred. I can't prove a negative and that was the point of RB's oil filler cap story. Thanks for showing the public how that all works, you don't need proof, or even a plausible assumption you just have to say it and it's gospel.
Talk about making assumptions..mirror meet doc.
I was alluding to...just what was the "clog"? During new car assembly, R134a does not contain "debris". Maybe Ford has some black death issues lingering around. THAT would create debris.
There was a time not so long ago, you might have given me the benefit of the doubt. See? How quickly the tables can turn? Here's one of YOUR's..."How does it feel to always be considered the bad guy?" You sometimes remind me of a cop who hates motorcyclists...judge, juror, convicted, right there on the side of the road.
Just for the record the only thing I was alluding to, since you make as many or more assumptions that you claim others make, is either Ford's Quality Job #1 failed by delivering a car with A/C not working from new, so had debris intro'd to it from a negligent probable Ford mechanic at the dealer wty level, OR, it created its own debris somehow from poor quality components. Or maybe a Ford assembly worker allowed a bit hose label get in there, who knows..
You need to remember something about E-mail. You are far from being the E-mail God who never communicates or interprets anything inaccurately. How about just start giving more people the benefit of the doubt for your last kicks at the can? Just imagine the load-off by slipping that enormous chip off your shoulder. And then, for the odd customer that reminds you of the chip you once had, don't dwell on them...instead think of all the other (majority) of customers that because you gave them the benefit of doubt, you didn't piss them off and 'talk ill' of your shop.
As of yet what is restricting the refrigerant flow isn't known as I haven't had time to do anything with it. Maybe on Sunday I might have some time. I'll also be documenting the rest of the steps becase they will make good training material.
Just for the record the only thing I was alluding to, since you make as many or more assumptions that you claim others make, is either Ford's Quality Job #1 failed by delivering a car with A/C not working from new, so had debris intro'd to it from a negligent probable Ford mechanic at the dealer wty level, OR, it created its own debris somehow from poor quality components. Or maybe a Ford assembly worker allowed a bit hose label get in there, who knows..
Lets re-read your sentence again.
On the subject of the troublesome (only) 3 year old Ford A/C expansion valve debris..surely we can assume (somewhat reasonably?) that even tho doc did not buy it new, surely it wasn't messed with in its first year. Doc has had it two of those years
That sure reads like you want to blame me, still.
What you are missing is the blame game doesn't solve anything, the only thing that solves the problem is doing something about it. Why couldn't it have been serviced by the previous owner instead of having it looked at while it was under warranty? Heck for one thing they can dump in a can of DIY refrigerant cheaper (and quicker) than they can rent a car for the day.
The only thing we know for sure is that someone in the past did something, and we don 't know who or why but I'll be the one who will be addressing it.
There was a time not so long ago, you might have given me the benefit of the doubt.
Yes but there was also the times when you posted contempt if I didn't answer enough questions to your liking but when asked direct questions you failed to hold yourself to the same expectation that you had for me.
BTW this "OR, it created its own debris somehow from poor quality components." is what I expect to find, but I also expect that I am going to find that instead of diagnosing and repairing it correctly someone has done something that adds an additional problem on top of the
original failure. That's why it will make a good training exercise.
Anyone want to assume what happened if a new car owner used this oil and had a mechanical failure?
Re my 'messed' with comment. Yes, when I wrote that I did sorta want to believe that no one under Ford's paycheck was behind it. Was that wrong of me? In my mind from the beginning, I was thinking premature black death debris. I guess I should have said so..
Yes but there was also the times when you posted contempt if I didn't answer enough questions to your liking but when asked direct questions you failed to hold yourself to the same expectation that you had for me.
First, it was NOT question(s) plural. There was ever only the ONE that I put you against the wall on...the bump causing the oil cap to become unscrewed claim you made. Which, since you are going there again in a skirting-around-it sorta way, you still have not addressed, and I realize you never intend to. We all put our mouth in it sometimes, even you, doc. It's just some of us are able to admit it. Evidently you are not.
I am not aware of any direct questions I have (according to you) failed to address. Unless you are referring some bait questions in your area of expertise that I did not bite on.
Had an interesting issue back when I bought a new duplex --- the cold water supply was freezing when the outside temp dropped below 20 degrees. The plumbers who did the work wouldn't answer my calls since the year warranty was over. The bathroom was on an inside wall that I shared with my neighbor. It just didn't make sense that the pipe was freezing on only one sink and not both on the vanity. Had a friend come over and we removed the mirror on the wall and cut out a section of drywall to give us access to the plumbing behind the sink. We dug out the insulation and saw what the issue was. The workers who drilled the holes into the studs angled the drill too close to the outside drywall and cut a hole into the dead air space between the buildings. The insulation couldn't get the fiberglass on the outside of the pipe because the pipe was tight to the drywall so they just covered it up. The pipe was effectively insulated into the air space right over the compromised drywall. Cold air in the space was freezing the pipe because it was totally exposed to the unheated section between our homes. I fixed the issue by jamming a sheet of 1/8th inch foam insulation between the pipe and gash in the drywall. Pipes can handle cold pretty well unless you have the exposed to the drafts of freezing air. Once the insulation effectively sealed off the gash all was well. Buttoned up the wall and reinstalled the mirror and no problems in 10 years. That's how you fix a freezing pipe on an inside wall.
I was told that Bar's Products of Holly, Michigan bought an electric fence to keep away customers with claim on cars damaged by Bar's head gasket repair
"Bar's award winner of failure product is making things even worse than before"
Once you use it, Bar's become your lifetime enemy
No wonder the product damaged my car engine beyond repair!
Bar's products 1960 backyard technology that fills bottle in their kitchen table is going nowhere
Bar's pays auto websites for fake’s products reviews and they are hundreds of it
Bar's are scamming people and we have to shut up?
A damaged engine cost thousands of dollars to repair and Bar's head gasket fix is good on causing overheated engine and damages on cooling parts and heater core