A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

tkfitz1

I guess my point was improperly expressed. To start with, what exactly causes the different/unique specs for the oil? The extended service intervals? Some innate mechanical quality of the engine? Different viscosities are available from various manufacturers so that may not be the difference. How likely is it that the different oil manufacturers have not had their oil re tested to ensure it meets the "new" spec? Is there a great incentive for the various makes to test all the different oils available to see if they are suitable? Or just go with one or two that they might have some sort of agreement with?
My point about the picture is you will never know if the damage was caused by inferior oil, waaay extended service intervals or a combo of the two. There are too many variables. The picture is meaningless-it is a dirty engine, thats all.
I would be willing to bet that matching the correct viscosity for the engine in question, and using a quality synthetic oil would provide most drivers with all the protection they need. For less demanding engines a good dino oil would be fine as well. I can do an oil change for $30 using Mobil 1 on my car, so why not just change it at a conservative interval? The small savings I could expect using some special oil and trying to go 10000+ miles are just not worth it. Not to me.

crkyolfrt

You pose a reasonably viable strategy, but it is not always as cut and dried as the average consumer would assume. It really does depend a LOT on the engine this strategy is being used on. One of the complications is that viscosity is not measured the same worldwide. So one way a (EU as a pertinent example) mfgr can help ensure that the proper 'oil', (viscosity differences aside) is used, is to spec an oil that meets 'their' specific requirements. Modern engines are so complicated now (due to performance expectations and very strict emission regs) that many parameters have to be met. An example is that if an oil viscosity you choose, differs too much from what the mfgr specs (see my point above about worldwide differences) then it may linger too long from dripping off the bottom of the piston it is designed to cool at a certain rate. There are many other examples also and many of them I am not qualified enough to start listing them all. That said, there are some who frequent this forum, could. Have we entered into splitting-hair and even anal territory? It really depends on the engine...and more so, the specific generation of engine.

busiris

"My point about the picture is you will never know if the damage was caused by inferior oil, waaay extended service intervals or a combo of the two. There are too many variables. The picture is meaningless-it is a dirty engine, thats all. "

A lot of people think that way, but an oil analysis by a reputable outfit can tell you quite a bit about the impact lubricants have/had on an engine. Oil analysis has become pretty sophisticated these days.

At the end of he day, I think the real issue boils down to expectations. A leased car "owner" probably defines a drivetrain lifetime as something like 3 years or 36 K miles. A lot of others see a reasonable lifetime as 10 years or 100 K miles, and a relatively few see a lifetime as unlimited years and 100s of thousands of miles.

Obviously, the lower the expectation level, the less impact an owner will notice as it relates to improper lubricants.

Mr_Shiftright

The "clean engine photo" sounds like pseudo-science to me. Who is to say that an engine that is 'clean' inside is any better than one that has a light brown film on it? It matters?

Oh, REALLY?

What matters is how the engine specs out, its oil consumption, how it runs.

Clean engine photos are useful to sell stuff to people.

isellhondas

So true.

I could take the most worn out, gunked up, abused engine I could find in a junkyard and with the help of a can of gunk and maybe a steam cleaner, I could make the insides gleam.

I once knew a guy who went to a huge Chevy Only swap meet and he bought an immaculate "409" from a guy who claimed it had come out of a Impala that had been rear ended and totaled. This engine was said to have 14,000 miles on it.

One valve cover had been removed to show how pristine and clean it was inside. The orange paint was perfect and the "original" 409/400 H.P. decals
were n place and looking good. It was displayed on an engine stand that was included in the price.

This guy had to fight off a couple of others (probably shills) that were interested and he paid the money (not cheap!) and carted his price home.

Long story short...when it wouldn't run properly and blew smoke everywhere, he pulled it apart. It turned out to be a VERY VERY tired 348 that had already been bored 60 over and needed another rebore.

Of course, the phone number he had was bogus and nobody knew who this vendor was so my buddy lost out.

I do have to say that had they met up elsewhere my buddy would probably be in prison right now.

Oh, but that engine sure looked great!!

thecardoc3

Clean engine photos are useful to sell stuff to people.

Yea, like the benefits of having a solid maintenance routine.

thecardoc3

I could take the most worn out, gunked up, abused engine I could find in a junkyard and with the help of a can of gunk and maybe a steam cleaner, I could make the insides gleam.

But what you couldn't do is not leave clear evidence that you did so.

One valve cover had been removed to show how pristine and clean it was inside. The orange paint was perfect and the "original" 409/400 H.P. decals
were n place and looking good. It was displayed on an engine stand that was included in the price

It's kind of sad when someone get's burned like this but I can't understand not being able to see that the engine had been apart, especially when it had been taken down for a re-bore. When someone brings me a used car to check over, I spend most of my time looking for signs of specific repairs. You can't remove and reinstall a bolt without putting some kind of a mark on it. Back when that engine was common we didn't have aluminum covers with O-rings for seals. They used cork gaskets and probably rope seals on the crank which means there should have been appropriate aging and seepage. The lack of staining in that case because of having to hot tank the block when it was bored should have been very obvious.

From there you have things like this from "wikipedia" One minor difference between the 348 and 409/427 was the location of the engine oil dipstick: it was on the driver's side on the former and passenger's side on the latter

stever

But what you couldn't do is not leave clear evidence that you did so.

Well, what "evidence is John R. giving us? All he said was "This 100,000 mile engine looks new, thanks to good service and the right oil".

If you're going to make claims like that, you need to show the "chain of evidence" so that people won't just wonder if you degunked the block, plus you need to demonstrate how the engine is running and how the wear and tear compares to the specs when it was new.

Well, actually he really isn't claiming anything other than an engine "looks new", whatever that means.

And how do you know the gunked engine can't be hosed down and put back into service?

Mr_Shiftright

I always remove my cylinder head and buff the inside once a week

This story (forgive me if I repeat myself) reminds me of a discussion I had with a very adept, and rather crooked, transmission rebuilder. Well, not a thief, but an "overseller". He told me that the easiest people to fool into buying more of a rebuild than they needed were the engineers from the local industries nearby, because they presumed a level of tolerance, precision and pristine looks that a GM automatic transmission simply did not need. So he'd show them some scoring marks on a plate, or a film of dirt on a shaft, and they of course, used to shooting rockets into space, were appalled and said---"by all means, replace that".

Comparing two engines, one internally cleaner than the other, and declaring one to be predictably more long-lived than the other is a classic case of mixing up causation with correlation.

thecardoc3

And how do you know the gunked engine can't be hosed down and put back into service

Hey gimme, see the leading question?

Who knows anything for certain in such a situation? Is the installation of that engine just to get the car to the dealer to unload it onto someone else, or do you expect to get another 100K out of it?

I only know that if I would put that into someone's car they would expect me to stand behind it, and if its appearance suggests that isn't a wise choice then that's all I or anyone else has to go on.

What does any of this have to do with habits that represent servicing a car correctly, versus neglecting it? Good service has its benefits and there are notable visual cues to when that has taken place. Combine that with solid record keeping which you fail to realize that John R. has for that customers car and you have something viable to work from.

Would you please explain why you have to try find fault with someone who really takes care of his customers the way most consumers would want to be taken care of?

thecardoc3

Comparing two engines, one internally cleaner than the other, and declaring one to be predictably more long-lived than the other is a classic case of mixing up causation with correlation.

You have Steve's blind choice here and you have to install one of these engines into a customers car and stand behind the repair. You have nothing else to go on, so choose one and tells us which one you chose and why.

stever

The point is that you can't go by looks. You'll have to stand by either engine and the "clean" one may throw a rod the first week in the new rig.

John R. is saying do your maintenance and your engine will be "clean". But that means zilch. What he should be saying is that empirical evidence shows that properly maintaining your car saves you money in repairs down the road and helps you avoid breaking down on the side of the road.

Now the problem with that argument is all the anecdotal evidence floating around where people drive them forever and neglect the maintenance.

Mr_Shiftright

whichever one runs better, doc, and sounds better and has best compression and oil pressure.

Presuming no drastic signs of sludge or horrendous neglect, the "cleanliness" of the engine means little to me in making this choice.

thecardoc3

I'm pretty sure Gimme wouldn't accept that as an answer if he asked me that question.

The question stands, "You have Steve's blind choice here and you have to install one of these engines into a customers car and stand behind the repair. You have nothing else to go on, so choose one and tells us which one you chose and why. "

That means you can't hear it run, you can't do a compression test on it etc. etc.

Presuming no drastic signs of sludge or horrendous neglect
What would that look like?

stever

Ah, but my choice wasn't "blind". All I said was that you couldn't tell anything about the clean engine by looking at it.

It'd be folly to spend a lot of time installing either one in Gimme's car without checking it out first.

You're wanting an answer to a question nobody asked.

thecardoc3

It'd be folly to spend a lot of time installing either one in Gimme's car without checking it out first

Well there is the imaginary word you are speaking from and then there is the real world where if you want to get a used engine and install it in someone's car it's a completely blind choice other than what it looks like inside. Dismantlers literally tear them apart within hours of getting them, and put the engines and transmissions on shelving and the only thing they supposedly can tell you is how many miles were on the car that it came out of. You can't start tearing things apart, that will void the warranty on that used engine which is usually going to be 90 days to six months on the part only. You can't hear it run, and you can't do a compression test, so the reality is, its a blind choice with nothing else to go on but what the oil looks like coming out, and what you can see by looking inside the valve cover if anything. So which one would you choose, the one that appears clean inside, or the other one and why?

You're wanting an answer to a question nobody asked.

I'm wanting you (and shifty) to answer the question as posed since it applies directly to your opinion about how clean an engine looks inside.

Mr_Shiftright

It's not a valid question doc, because you are using criteria which have little to do with the actual condition of the engine. It's like asking if you had to choose a quarterback for your high school football team but couldn't see them perform, would you choose the clean cut blond kid with perfect teeth or the kid with a huge head, black hair in a pony tail, and beady little eyes.

Your ideological position, that cleanliness always indicates godliness, is getting in your way.

thecardoc3

Here, lets change the question.
Have you ever installed a used engine into a customers car?

Steve same question, have you?

Have either of you ever done a used engine swap in your own car ? (not helped or watched , actually done it!)

It's not a valid question doc, because you are using criteria which have little to do with the actual condition of the engine.

It's a perfectly valid question and that's the point. I'll agree you still don't know anything about either engine but in reality the compression test isnt going to give you a definitive answer, and neither is just hearing it run. Nothing short of driving it and getting it under a load for a reasonable period of time is really going to expose all of the possible flaws, and you can't do that without putting it into a car.

It is a simple question and has a straight answer, I guess I keep forgetting the double standard at play and I'm the only one that has to answer questions.

stever

No. If I was going to "swap" an engine, I'd either have my own rebuilt or buy a reman crate engine. Neither of JR's two examples would qualify.

busiris

"Have either of you ever done a used engine swap in your own car ? (not helped or watched , actually done it!) "

I have, several times back in the 60-70's. where I grew up in south GA, junkyards were plentiful, and the most popular cars for broke HS students were mid 50's Fords and Chevrolets.

We did quite a few VW Beetles, too.

One can imagine the length of time a 10-12 year old "tired" engine would run under the foot of a male teenager back then, before "expiring". It was no problem to buy a used engine out of a wrecked/rusted out vehicle for $10-20, as long as the buyer performed all the work. Junkyards were full of like cars/engines, ...

Most of these swaps were done on Saturday, and by Saturday nite, we were cruising again.

We usually selected engines based on the quality of the looks of the "donor" car, but I found out rapidly that using that technique along was the same as 50/50 odds. We soon realized we made the best selections if we could identify the previous owner (easy to do in those days in a small rural community)... At least, that would give us an idea of how the care was treated while still in service.

Mr_Shiftright

It's not a simple question with a straightforward answer Doc. You are "begging the question", meaning you are stating the premise as if it were true, and then using that same premise to prove your point.

Nobody but a fool puts a used engine in a car without running it, or having a warranty with a read out of oil pressure and compression.

It's one of those "could God make a rock so big he couldn't lift it" and let's have another beer sort of questions.

Sure I've put any number of used engines in my cars, all by myself with nobody holding my hand, and I picked them based on how they ran. I have excellent senses for listening to engines and what they are doing.

when in doubt, I didn't pick that engine, and YES if I had to choose between two good running engines, one that was greasy and oily on the outside and one all spiffy, I'd pick the spiffy one.

But some internal varnish film on the inside of an engine means a whole lotta nothing, without other data.

Case in point. Take off an oil cap and you see some milky gunk? Bad head gasket?

Not nearly enough data to make that conclusion.

crkyolfrt

Same here, a fair bit can be told if you can hear it run. Various throttles, and letting off throttle. I listen (and look in relation to those throttle inputs) at the tail pipe too..

Case in point. Take off an oil cap and you see some milky gunk? Bad head gasket?

Yup.. true enough, but there are other tell tale signs inside the oil cap too. If the carmel coloured build up is residing in corners and crevices of the valve train, this does suggest that it has been a bit oil-change starved.

This chat reminds me of a couple of engine woe experiences I had when I was younger. There more than a couple but two stand out. Back in...I forget...but back when I had a strong back, and was extra motivated by poorness, I needed a donor engine for my 71 Volvo 144S. My friend Dan (the friend who I mention from time to time on the diesel thread who finally retired his 86 TD for a new 2011 TDI) had parked an old 142 on our farm years prior. After asking Dan about it I knew it was a worthwhile engine to pursue. This poor thing was so badly rusted that the tops of the front fenders had been fibreglassed (ya that was done back then on the cheap) and had rotted through again and is why Dan had finally parked it....that and an ornery electric OD solenoid in the tranny. Back then that was a sought after tranny cuz of having the OD but they were all a PITA in the cold winter temps..Anyway, so unfortunately that was the time of the year I needed this motor. But there was over 3' snow on the old road in to Dad's old shop where the 42 was parked out back. So to get it I had to take my trailer and old Olympic 10 hp up from the city, then used the Skidoo to get up the road to where the Volvo was. Then cut some hemlock and made a tripod. I took all the things like winch, chains etc etc to get the thing out. And to get the engine back down the road (about a 1/4 mi) I literally straddled the bugger between my legs as I made my way back out the trail I had made coming in. Armstrong'ed the thing on planks back onto the trailer, loaded the sled and headed back to the city...cold, tired, sore but with my new motor! Which turned out to be a really tight engine. So tight in fact sometimes I literally had to park on a hill often to bump start it cuz the battery and/or starter were too weak to turn the thing over at times. Oh to be young and that motivated again....altho I'm sure it was crazy things like that that has contributed to my crap back and arthritic joints now.

The other engine woe? hahaha ok I confess...I once tried to use The Real Thing as a crank rod bearing in my old 64 2 door (rare) Dodge...remember back when Coke ads called it the Real Thing?? I cut out a couple slivers the size I thought I'd need outta one of the cans...ya you're all correct...it failed..haha but it wasn't for lack of imaginative thinking and a light wallet...ya...I was motivated that time too, lol

Ya know...those really were the good ol' days weren't they?

Mr_Shiftright

I once took the cylinder head off a Volvo 144 for a friend who had just bought it--it had a rather severe vibration which she was told was "motor mounts" (they were fine).

When I lifted the head, there was no piston in cylinder # 2 !! Someone took it out, along with the rod, and wrapped a leather strap around the crank oil hole.

And yes, (no kidding) it was pretty clean inside

I remember that because I remarked that someone must have tried to rebuild the engine and it failed, and they got disgusted and ditched it.

Crank was hammered.

jayrider

I wonder how many folks buy and install used engines anymore. Is there much of a market in that arena. Is there any future in the used engine business with all of today's electronics ? Once guys like doc get too old to work, who are you going to find to install a used engine in a 2012 Acura TL in 30 years and what will it cost ?

stever

For years now, people have been buying old Seth Thomas type mantle clocks at the antique stores and swapping out the guts for a little battery operated clockworks that needs no maintenance and runs for a few years on a AA battery. Drives the clock repair guys crazy but it's quick, dirty and keeps better time than the original ever did.

Maybe in 30 years, you'll be able to buy a little torquey fuel cell gizmo and a transmission adapter that will let you zoom around in your "antique" Acura.

thecardoc3

Case in point. Take off an oil cap and you see some milky gunk? Bad head gasket?

Yup.. true enough, but there are other tell tale signs inside the oil cap too.

That could easily just be condensation from normal combustion gasses.

fintail

Old 60s era MB I6 engines are known for that, I think. No problem, just a quirk of the design.

But see it in something like a Ford 3.8, and maybe run away.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh yeah, it's still a good business, especially since a failed engine on most new cars pretty much totals the automobile, if you had to pay the dealer to install a brand new block. My 2003 Mini would be totaled, as would my friends 2002 Porsche Boxster---new engine worth more than the car itself.

Yep, electronics can be a huge hurdle, so most people try to find a used engine that is an exact model/year replacement.

RE: sludge on an oil cap---exactly my point--this "dirty" oil cap often means nothing.

jayrider

my bad. I didn't think of torquey gizmos. That's why you're the hoster and I'm the poster.

thecardoc3

http://www.qualityusedengines.com/?utm_source=GQDTM&utm_medium=PPC&utm_content=A- C1&utm_campaign=QUE&matchtype=e&network=g&kw=used%20engines&ad=30835707408&sitet- arget=&adposition=1t1&mobile=

Nobody but a fool puts a used engine in a car without running it, or having a warranty with a read out of oil pressure and compression.

Really? So how long have you been out of the business? Fifteen, twenty years?
I can tell you in all my thirty plus years we never saw a used engine run and all we were ever able to do was go on the wrecking yards word. As a tech working for someone else, they acquired the engine and it was up to me to make it work.

Today it's rare for a car to be drivable when it gets to the yard, at best they might be able to run one for a minute or two with no load and whatever they notice is all they get know about it too. After that all they can do is try and find another one if the first one doesn't work out. FWIW that's why top shops try to not do used engines if they can help it.

YES if I had to choose between two good running engines, one that was greasy and oily on the outside and one all spiffy, I'd pick the spiffy one

Good luck hearing any of these run before someone buys one.

http://usedengines.org/

thecardoc3

RE: sludge on an oil cap---exactly my point--this "dirty" oil cap often means nothing.

Oil cap? Some day I'll show you what we can do with the video bore scopes that we use for inspection purposes.

stever

lolol, I'm moving all my retirement funds into torquey gizmos. :-)

Mr_Shiftright

you didn't read my post, doc.

I said "or having a warranty with a read out of oil pressure and compression. "

If you're saying that you buy engines from a wrecking yard that never started, or listened to, or checked the engines either, then you are both being reckless.

I would never do such a thing, NEVER.

"How much for that Porsche Boxster engine"?

"$3,500"

"How does it run"

"Gee, I don't know. Will that be cash or charge?"

thecardoc3

I said "or having a warranty with a read out of oil pressure and compression.

I read that, and knew right away that you don't know that your not going to get that and if that means that you won't buy the engine then that's what it means. That also means you just lost the customer because someone else will give it a go and if it works out for them then they are the hero and you get to own all of the anti consumer labels that people will throw around because they were able to fix the car and you only wanted to take advantage of them.

If you're saying that you buy engines from a wrecking yard that never started, or listened to, or checked the engines either, then you are both being reckless.

That's a valid opinion, but you are insulated from the realities of how far the trade has been pushed to be too cheap. The race to the bottom spares no-one and you can take the high road and just say you won't do it and that only assures you of eventually losing the customer. The only thing worse than the bottom feeders being successful with their approach are the times that everything goes south on them and then the customer comes back to us hoping we can make the abortion work. That happens a lot with newer engines and the computer controls that are changing year to year and sometimes several times inside a given year.

"How much for that Porsche Boxster engine"?
"$3,500"
"How does it run"
"Gee, I don't know. Will that be cash or charge?"

Your being surprised by this is quite telling.

ohenryx

Around these parts, the better independent shops will not sell / install a used engine. You pay for a "remanufactured" engine, or they turn down your business. It has been this way for, oh, maybe 30 years or longer.

Even going back 40 years or more, most used engines were installed by shade tree mechanics, the professionals wouldn't touch those jobs.

stever

How hard is it to put an engine on a stand and run it? You always see clips of the manufacturers doing this to new engines before they are installed and presumably before the ECUs or other controls are hooked up.

Something like this "Easy Run setup.

thecardoc3

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/engine-test-stand

Plus you have to figure an additional labor fee and fluids to do the testing and we run right into the same trap. Back Yard Bob gets to be the hero and cut your throat on the price if you add these costs into your job.

The trick here is this is the other side of the coin that gets flipped when consumers price shop. You just havent gotten to watch both hands be played in this game before. I'd actually love to simply do reman engines or build them myself. The cut-thoats cause us to lose most of the estimates to the point that I do less than five a year on average.

stever

Yeah, but it seems like that'd still be easier and cheaper than doing the engine testing in the actual car.

Mr_Shiftright

Well if that's the case Doc, I'm never having your shop install a used engine. Surely YOU MUST BE KIDDING US, to say that you would install an engine you have a) never heard run and b) have no written warranty on. Where do you get engines from, Yemen?

Where I come from, we have all these services in place. I can get a cleaned bagged engine with readouts on the tag, and/or a written warranty.

If this is truly your modus operandi, I hope you enjoy eating all that wasted labor on a bum engine. Good luck with that!

thecardoc3

Well if that's the case Doc, I'm never having your shop install a used engine. Surely YOU MUST BE KIDDING US, to say that you would install an engine you have a) never heard run and b) have no written warranty on.

Having a warranty on it means they will get you another one, but you don't get to hear them run.

Steve how many times have you used the argument that its all just about the customer trying to save some money, isn't it funny how giving into the customers wishes is suddenly wrong?

Where I come from, we have all these services in place. I can get a cleaned bagged engine with readouts on the tag, and/or a written warranty.

And exactly how did you hear that run before you bought it?

If this is truly your modus operandi, I hope you enjoy eating all that wasted labor on a bum engine. Good luck with that!

Nah, I'm the bad guy that won't do it as cheap as back yard bob does so my pricing on installing a warrantable re manufactured engine prevents me from even getting the estimate. Either way its a loser.....

stever

Steve how many times have you used the argument that its all just about the customer trying to save some money, isn't it funny how giving into the customers wishes is suddenly wrong?

Sorry, I'm not following what you mean. Not sure what the disconnect is, but we're a bunch of capitalists and the bottom line drives most everything. If you don't want to compete on price, fine, you just need to convince potential customers that they will save money in the long run by using your shop. Others will just shop the initial price -- but it'll boil down to saving money either way.

Surely there's an outfit shipping containers of engines to China to be rebuilt?

fintail

From what I have seen from the Chinese motorcycles and scooters that have been allowed on our shores, anyone who would buy a Chinese rebuilt engine would be an idiot, not a capitalist. Throwaway products, and supporting a sinister regime to boot. What's not to like?

stever

The price?

GM begins full engine imports from US for China (supplierbusiness.com)

fintail

GM did it the other way already, sending over the hoary old low feature 3.5 lump primarily for Equinox, IIRC. Not a way to build brand equity.

Importing engines from the US to China for use in a premium car, however, might show a reality.

stever

Parts is parts. :-)

Funny how a one man shop in the middle of Pennsylvania has to compete with some little outfit in Guizhou.

jayrider

Big problem in having a Chinese rebuilt engine installed is that 30 minutes after you drive away, you're hungry for more power.

fintail

Parts aren't parts. For the applications I use, I would rather scrounge around for ancient NOS stuff than deal with Chinese copies. I'll rebuild my engine by myself on the kitchen table before I hit the lowest common denominator and get a disposable Chinese rebuild.

The one man shop in podunk middle America probably turns out more reliable and better quality, too.

explorerx4

in the Mustang today. It had been just about exactly 2 years, of course only about 1600 miles.
I was surprised how much quieter and smoother the engine is running.
Both the old and new oil is high mileage 10W30, although the odometer is sitting at 37000.4.

roadburner

Some of you may know that I decided to keep the Mazdaspeed for a while longer; I seriously considered a Focus ST or Fiesta ST, but I remain unimpressed with the quality of the local Ford dealer's service departments- and their penchant for voiding warranties for even mentioning HPDEs(my BMW and Mazda dealers never gave me any hassle about that). I also liked the Abarth a LOT, but I like not having a car payment even more, so...

I decided to fix the the Mazda's biggest problem-inadequate struts/shocks-
with a bit of an upgrade: Koni FSDs coupled with new OEM strut mounts and bearings. Tire Rack provided the Konis while Montgomery Mazda in Charlotte NC sold me the OEM bits for 22% off MSRP along with free shipping. A friend in the local Mazda Club also has an MS3 and has installed springs/struts shocks on his car as well as for several other club members with Mazdaspeeds, so as soon as he gets a free weekend(he's a Team Leader at the local Toyota plant- go figure) we're going to tackle the installation.

More updates as they become available...

isellhondas

***sigh***

Last year I went to Home Depot and bought some wooden dowels for a Kiwanis project I was in charge of and of all things they were MADE IN CHINA!!

WOODEN DOWELS!!!

Last week I bought two new bathroom sinks. A top brand...Yep, Made in China!!

I was SHOCKED, SHOCKED to see a large display of Stanley Tools...All made in China! Even the long time, Peterson family sold out it's Vise Grip operation to Irvin....Now, Made in China!!

Throwaway products? " Sinister regime? Nobody cares!!