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A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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Comments

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    I'm no fan of Bars, but I suspect the OP is another "one and done" complainer...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    I know this is going to sound like a broken record, but "another interconnect issue?".

    What's that make, six, eight, or more tales of troubleshooting you've told us about that came down to a wiring/connector problem?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    edited September 2013
    What's that make, six, eight, or more tales of troubleshooting you've told us about that came down to a wiring/connector problem?

    I have only posted about 5% of what I see each week.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    I got 2 right... But I guessed on 1. Do I get the job... . and when do I start?
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,433
    well, in theory, you don't need to know any of this. Just how to read the owners manual. Use what they call for and don't go off the grid.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Just how to read the owners manual.

    Do what????? VBG
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    I got the first 2.

    I failed the rest because I am unfamiliar with their marketing speak.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    Dogs live longer than Neons.

    Hey now, I've had a few dogs live to 13-14 years. Lotta cars, Neon or not, don't make it that long!

    I knew of one dog that made it to about 20 or 21. Belonged to the owner of a local wrecking yard. Oddly enough, old age didn't do him in, he got hit by a car. :(
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think what he meant was that you measure a Neon lifespan in dog years but in reverse--- 7 dog years equals 1 Neon year. So 21 year old dog = 3 year old Neon. Yeah, that sounds about right. :)
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    I finalized the Escape AC study. It was sealant that restricted the filters inside the reciever drier, and the overcharge included 15% air inside the system with the R134.

    In the next week or so I'll write about the Toyota Sienna transmission issue that we dealt with in the last few days. FWIW, that one is not a connection issue.

    http://johng673.blogspot.com/
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    This is a sample of some of the changes that are coming out

    BULK ENGINE OIL CHAIN OF CUSTODY AND QUALITY DOCUMENTATION 11

    7.5 Installation Practices

    7.5.1 Engine oil change options shall be clearly and accurately represented to consumers through a menu board, list of services, or other promotional methods.

    7.5.2 Bulk engine oil installation hoses, hose reels or nozzles shall be clearly labeled with the brand name, SAE viscosity grade, and API service category of each oil being dispensed.

    7.6 Customer Receipts
    The customer receipt for the engine oil change shall clearly identify the brand name, SAE viscosity grade, API service category and API license status of the oil installed. For example, the receipt would provide the following information: “Specific Brand SAE 5W-30 API-Licensed SN/GF-5.”

    An installer has the option to indicate that the brand of oil is a “house brand.” Note, however, that an API engine oil license is not transferable and the licensee does not have the right to grant sublicenses. If an installer chooses to rename an engine oil as a “house brand,” the oil must be identified as “unlicensed.” For example, the receipt would provide the following information: “House Brand Unlicensed 5W30 SN/GF-5.”
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Is this from an official agency or something from an industry group? I assume it's from the API.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    edited June 2013
    Is this from an official agency or something from an industry group? I assume it's from the API.

    Ths is from the API.

    One of the lines that should have everybody wondering is the last one.

    For example, the receipt would provide the following information: “House Brand Unlicensed 5W30 SN/GF-5

    The moment someone actually labels a product as un-licensed, what should that really mean to a consumer?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2013
    More money in their pocket? Oil's oil after all. (say that three times fast).

    And if some shop doesn't comply with the API requirements? They can put any label they want on their drums and hoses, or none at all. And they don't have to put anything on their receipts about the oil being "unlicensed". What's the API going to do - take out some newspaper ads complaining about a shop?

    Probably see a lot more branding of Amsoil and Royal Purple now on receipts and hoses now.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Probably see a lot more branding of Amsoil and Royal Purple now on receipts and hoses now

    Well it's not like all of their products are API licensed anyway.

    What's the API going to do - take out some newspaper ads complaining about a shop?

    There are state governments that are stepping in and looking at the potential revenue streams by enforcing compliance.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    What would a state agency's revenue motive be for "helping" a national trade association "enforce compliance"? Not sure I'm following you here.

    I could see the FTC worrying about false advertising if a vehicle requires a certain spec'd oil and finds that shops are routinely ignoring the requirement.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Look under the Bureau of Weights and Measures for the answers. The FTC didn't even want involved in the R2R issue because they lack the resources to administer that.

    The funny part is that these new regulations are coming out, but do you recall seeing anything about them?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Got a link?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Hey, don't knock Bar's Leak. The stuff works.

    Just don't use the entire bottle or you can plug up your heater core.

    The best stuff I ever used was by a company called Motor Purr. They are probably long out of business.

    They had a radiator stop leak that looked like brass dust suspended in honey.

    I had a '64 Impala SS 409 that had a leaking heater core. The car had A/C so changing the core was a nasty job. I used a half bottle of Motor Purr and the leak was stopped for the two more years I owned the car and, yes, the heater still worked.

    Man, I wish I had that car now!
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Several in fact and the rules aren't consistent state to state.

    The entities involved are doing nothing to inform neither the consumers nor the shops of the changes. I'll post the links in a few days, meanwhile lets see if some of the readers can track some of this down and post the information first.

    The main point here is when this stuff is as hard as this is to find, why should anyone be expected to know about it?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2013
    Most consumers barely know about the stickers on the gas pumps that supposedly insure volume control, much less know (or care) that their state may be regulating brake fluid and oils.

    Florida seems to be a bit overboard, and I don't even see anything about motor oil in a quick skim.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Did you ever hear of the NIST Handbook 130? ( Uniform Laws and Regulations in the Areas of Legal Metrology and Engine Fuel Quality.)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2013
    Why should I? That what I pay the regulators for.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Why should I? That what I pay the regulators for.

    Maybe because consumers come here looking for advice?

    I like John R's explanation.

    http://robisonservice.blogspot.com/2013/09/coming-soon-new-standards-for.html
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2013
    I like this paragraph in your link:

    "Walk the aisles of your local mass merchandiser. Read the labels on the backs of the fifty-some different oils they should have in stock. You will be lucky to find one single product that meets the Mercedes 229 spec, and you may not find any! The same will be true for the VW or BMW requirements. If you install an oil that does not meet specs for your car you are taking a big risk."

    Now, someone popping over to Walmart may pay attention to the weight or they may just decide to go with a 5W20 because it's a "gas saving" oil. Or they'll buy the "high mileage" oil because their ride has 50,000 miles on it and it's on sale this week. Do you think the Waltons are going to put a big sign in the aisle saying "using the wrong may destroy your engine" or stamp that on the sales receipt?

    Looking for advice? Get a car with an engine that will take a nice, normal generic (but SAE/API approved) oil that you can find most anywhere.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I just have trouble believing that those slight differences in oils can make one twit of difference in the life of a car's engine.

    I honestly believe in my mind that if that Mercedes didn't get that "229 spec" oil that absolutely nothing adverse would happen providing an otherwise quality oil were used.

    Just my opinion but I suppose I could be somehow wrong?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2013
    Have to give the garage owner credit for doing the oil change at 7,500 miles at least, instead of catering to the 3k crowd.

    I guess I'll have to enter this contest and get some funding for my hood welding, just add an additive port idea. Oh shoot, bet I'm not eligible since an Edmunds VP is one of the judges. Okay, you are welcome to use it yourself Isell. :-)
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Have to give the garage owner credit for doing the oil change at 7,500 miles at least, instead of catering to the 3k crowd.

    That's not uncommon when you are looking at the top shops around the country. But you got to remember you have to use an oil that is approved for the manufacturers specifications. For the consumers that's easy if they choose the right shop.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    I just have trouble believing that those slight differences in oils can make one twit of difference in the life of a car's engine

    It not only can it does.

    I honestly believe in my mind that if that Mercedes didn't get that "229 spec" oil that absolutely nothing adverse would happen providing an otherwise quality oil were used

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.eea470a/31

    http://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w211/406168-how-often-do-you-get-oil-change.ht- ml
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    If you read the fine print from MB (link), they make this issue out to be miniscule.

    "a very small number of Mercedes-Benz owners have experienced oil sludge and fewer still experienced related engine damage from the earlier use of conventional motor oil, particularly when FSS service intervals were not carefully followed.

    we will cover ... in the unlikely event of any future oil sludging or related engine damage in your vehicle from the earlier use of conventional, approved motor oil (API SH or S)."

    That said, I'd be irritated if I had purchased one and was informed a few years later that I had to switch to synthetic, which is what MB did here.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    "It not only can but it does"

    It wouldn't for me because I don't let my oil go that far. Call me wrong but 5000 miles on top quality dino oil wouldn't have caused a sludge problem I wouldn't think.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    By the way, while I'm in grump mode, how you tell that 100k engine is factory fresh without taking it apart and putting the micrometers to it? At least he didn't say it was clean enough to eat off of. :-)
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    I can remember when you had your oil changed at the dealer, the brand and spec on the oil would change at least every other visit. Different dealerships selling the same brand of car used different oil. Maybe they put their oil business up for bid every 6 months . Now we have some ridiculous proprietory system that makes choosing the correct oil like shopping at a boutique for fine wine.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Are you talking to me? If so, I have no idea what you are talking about??

    Still grumpy?
  • tkfitz1tkfitz1 Member Posts: 36
    draw any meaningful conclusion from a case where the engine was not maintained properly and the "wrong" oil was used? Nice scary picture to make some sap shell out big money for the OEM oil. How much a quart does that stuff cost?
    I commute about 100 miles a day, and change oil at 5000 miles. Never lost an engine due to oil failure yet. Mobil 1 or Castrol syn oil less than $30 for a change at Walmart. Semi syn oil-Motorcraft or such less than $20.
    Maybe fancy car dealers use the "special" oil.....or more likely just charge a "special" price.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Your memory is accurate to a point. Years ago the only thing that mattered was the API specs. The problem is that started changing in the late 90's, to see proof of that just look at the formation of ACEA and the specs for products that met their requirements. The Mercedes thread has one very important fact incorrect. The Mercedes spec back then included ACEA B3, and nothing that was API licensed met that. It wasn't Mercedes that was recommending the wrong products here in North America it was their North American dealers who were simply ignoring the requirement and using what ever they could buy in bulk.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    First you don't have to buy the OEM oil, but you do have to use a product that is approved to meet their specs. The Mercedes story was all about their dealers ignoring the specification. GM had the same problem with the dexos specification, VW dealt with it when they came out with 502 etcetera. (every manufacturer has had to deal with people ignoring the specs and doing what ever they wanted to)

    I commute about 100 miles a day, and change oil at 5000 miles.

    At that kind of mileage, depending on what you drive and if you are using the correct product you are changing your oil at least 2500 miles too soon today.
    BMW's will easily run their 15,000 miles in conditions like that. My Escape will hit as much as 10,000 miles before it needs changed. Mercedes theoretically can hit 18,750 but it usually works out to 11,000 - 13,000 miles.

    If you go back a few posts and the enforcement situation I referred to, the shops are going to find themselves cited and possibly fined if they aren't very specific about what product is going into someone's car. If a GM that requires dexos is serviced then the repair order must state that is exactly the product that was used. That's what John R does in a post a few threads ago and that's what I have been doing in my shop for a few years now. What consumers fail to see is that your objections amount to pressure to do the job incorrectly. Why would you want to seek out someone to service your car who ignores your manufacturers specs?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2013
    That was regarding "John R's" clean engine photo. I get a bit irritated when these photos get posted showing spotless engines that have 100,000 miles on them, yet they are pristine and factory fresh, and all they are going by is how "clean" they are. For all I know they soaked the block in a vat of 409 for a month before snapping the photo and there's a hole in the block that doesn't show up in the pic.

    Tear it down and measure the actual wear or at least do a compression test on the puppy.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    edited September 2013
    That was regarding "John R's" clean engine photo. I get a bit irritated when these photos get posted showing spotless engines that have 100,000 miles on them

    I have a 2002 Ford Explorer that you could take an identical picture of its internals at 164,000 miles that would match John R's picture. That vehicle also did a lot of towing in its early years which means it was worked very hard. My daughters 2004 Rav 4 with 167K on it is as clean as well.

    Jump to my blog, you'll see some of a little video that I just went out and did.

    http://johng673.blogspot.com/

    That's my Escape and the oil life monitor is just over 30% life left (That's approx. 6000 miles since it was changed.) The car has over 65000 miles total.

    I'll see what I need to do to make the video run smooth. I guess I could send it to You Tube and then link bank. I'll have to do that later when I have more time.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2013
    But what does "clean" mean? Your truck could die tomorrow. My VG33E could be stained and still keep going for another 200k. Clean doesn't mean no wear does it?. It wouldn't make sense that moving parts have no wear after 50,000 miles, much less 164k.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    It doesn't matter what oil I run in my son's 2004 X3; by 10,000 miles the oil's TBN is below 1.0(meaning that the additive package is almost totally depleted). I have used Mobil 1 0W-40(an LL-01 oil) as well as synthetics oils primarily formulated for diesel engines(but still SN rated) such as Rotella T6 5W-40 and Mobil 1 5W-40. I now change the oil at the approximate mid point of the interval calculated by the SI system which works out to 7,500 miles.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    edited September 2013
    One benefit of clean is the lower odds that a small lubing orifice isn't gradually getting restricted.

    One could also deduce that in an already kept-clean engine, any additives and detergents that are in a fresh oil change, are working at their peak ability in keeping dirt in suspension, rather than being used up prematurely in catch-up mode from an engine that isn't exposed to a fresh batch of these additives via frequent enough oil and filter changes.

    Also, and I don't know this but suspect it...dirt that gets layered and layered, will insulate and hold uneven heat, and modern aluminum blocks (and heads of course) are designed to assist in managing heat and help ensure tolerances. Surely that is fairly important for longevity potential?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2013
    Define "longevity". :-)

    All that sounds good but how do you know someone didn't "chemically" scour the innards before opening the engine up and taking a pic?

    You can spend some extra time and money chasing down the "right" oil and doing everything over and above the book, and get an extra decade of use out of your car. Or you can sort of keep up and probably manage that extra decade anyway.

    Or you can hit a deer the day after it's out of warranty.

    There's so many variables, it's hard for some of us to justify doing more than the bare minimum required in the owner's manual. Even if you do that, you may wind up with a engine that gels because of a small lubing orifice (aka Toyota).

    It's kind of like looking at your dipstick. I don't think you can tell how well it's working or how much life is left in your oil, or your engine, just by looking at it. But you can analyze the oil and you can measure the cylinder wear.

    Even better, get some bulk neutron-activated tracers and measure your engine wear in real time. But is it worth it for a passenger car? (link)
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Longevity...to me? Being able to use something that is still working at 7/10ths or better of its potential when new, long after many many owners have retired their vehicle. So to equate to miles, some engines, and manual or automatic transmissions are finished at 100000 miles. To me, and given the advancement we have made in lube technology even as of 10 years ago, that is almost HALF what I think a reasonable life expectancy should be. Example.. manual transmissions should not be popping out of gear, or whirring with a bearing about to fail even at 200k. Engines should not be burning excessive oil, or have overly reduced compression and compression should still be quite even among the cylinders, still at 180+k. It shouldn't be leaking out of major joints and seals, and regular oil changes is the most affordable means to help ensure things like a main crank seal is still sealing etc even at those extended miles.

    Overheating, even once, and obvious neglect/ignorance (starting and revving a cold engine like a mindless idiot in the dead of a cold winter morning) is not allowed and if so, all bets are off..

    As for your link..haha....where do you come up with this stuff? I'm always intrigued with some of the stuff you dig up...too funny.. but interesting just the same..
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited September 2013
    I think a lot of people think their car is dead at 100k (and maybe they traded it with a bad transmission or engine) but I bet most of them get fixed up and wind up at the auction or at a buy-here, pay-here lot and got for another 100k.

    You'll see the occasional ad that says that 99% of all F-150s or Corollas sold in the last X years are still on the road; well, I'd like to see the registration numbers for all cars sold as they age. Surely someone tracks that stuff (but I can't find *every* interesting link out there by myself. :-)).
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    edited September 2013
    Oh, for sure, but I think that is part of the point too...you always hear about the guy who only changed his oil every (however often, but infrequently) and never had a lick of problem..well that's great but I've seen a real pattern with those types of stats and those owners often deal every wty period so these cars that you mention that end up at the buy-here lots and get their powertrain replaced to go another 100k, are the very neglected ones left in their wake.
    "I never had a problem"...ya...but ask the 'next' owner of your vehicle whether they paid for your neglect..

    I'm reminded of guys who ride bikes, and insist they never use the clutch cuz they have cassette style trannys. Well those same guys are the ones who has to have the next newest and greatest super bike that weighs 220 grams less than last year's model..Ask the poor bugger who ended up with his used bike, whether the thing is popping out of gear or suffering bent shift forks etc..all preventable if the original owner had simply used the clutch..
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    "Nice scary picture to make some sap shell out big money for the OEM oil. How much a quart does that stuff cost? "

    I would only say that when we paint any sort of business model with such a broad brush its easy to end up with an incorrect conclusion.

    As an example, I can buy (as can anyone) the BMW LL spec OEM oil for my BMW at the local dealer cheaper than I can purchase Mobil 1 at the nearest Walmart (by about $.25/quart.

    In addition, the local dealership often offers discount incentives on oil changes, and I've never been pressured in any way to purchase other items such as air filters, etc. when taking them up on one of their offers.

    Every shop isn't trying to pick its customers' pockets, although I acknowledge there isn't any shortage of ones that are... As one will find in every business model.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Shoot, I have to start going to party stores more often. Had no idea they sold motor oil - just lottery tickets and booze. :-)
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