We are building China into a super power by buying all their cheaply made goods, much like we did with Japan at the end of w.w.2. China... a potential enemy. Doesn't make sense.
Recently had problem with our 2011 Hyundai Veracruz. Wouldn't go into park or reverse when electronic stability control light came on. Googled symptoms. Came up stop light switch was bad. Dealership confirmed and replaced under warranty.
Nobody cares or can afford to thanks to decreases in purchasing power due to the failed trickle down/job creator experiment.
For some of that stuff, I would shop architectural salvage or second hand stores, and re-use vintage items. Old tools can be bargains at auctions or estate sales. For things like faucets and similar hardware, it might all be made in China these days, save for top of the line Hansgrohe style stuff - another place to buy old items and re-use them. The benefits aren't reaching the consumer.
I had a similar failure on my E55 - one day, the idiot lights lit up like a Christmas tree. I was sure everything didn't fail at once, so I called my well regarded indy mechanic - he knew right away it was the switch. I was also about 250 miles from home, in the sticks. I was coming home soon, and dropped in, he changed it in 45 mins. Strangest thing is that the cruise control didn't work because of the failure.
You can get bath fixtures that are made in America [Kohler and Delta] but you have to go to a plumbing supply store or a kitchen design store. I've been to Kohler Wisconsin and they are still manufacturing quality goods.
My grandmother's ~50 year old house still has many original fixtures, no doubt all made in USA...I doubt most of this new cheap stuff will fare as well.
Good luck finding parts for those fixtures. I couldn't (my house dates to '06). I could have a tap rebuilt for around $600 if I don't mind being without water for about three months.
No one is interested in getting an engine from Kohler-YinXiang?
I believe Kohler and Delta are available at your Lowes or Home Depot. You may need to order from the catalog....
One thing about both of those companies is that for the master bath I reburbished 14 years ago or the lavatories and kitchen faucets, I just call about the ceramic valves or other parts and they send replacements at no charge. Customer for life.
Funny thing was there was a Hyundai recall on those switches 3 years prior, but not including, my model year. Guess Hyundai found a good use for those old faulty switches. Was dangerous as my wife couldn't put car in park.
While at dealership they tried to sell me a emissions service for $149. At only 26k miles... no thanks.
I just received the OEM front suspension parts that I ordered from Montgomery Mazda(AKA: Onlinemazdaparts.com) for my Koni FSD install. The bump stops were made in Great Britain, the dust boots in Spain, the strut mounts in Italy, and the strut bearings in France. Nothing came from China, fortunately.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
The things we do to locate such failures include connecting a scope to the wiring and not only measure the voltages on the power and ground sides, we also measure the current being drawn by the circuit at the same time. (aka low amps current probe) Power wires that get grounded cause high current spikes, and corroded connections or wires cause low current spikes. Combine that with what you see in the applied voltage and any voltage drops at various chosen points in the circuit and you have a nice scientific, repeatable routine to locate and repair problems like the one described. That means to diagnose and repair issues like that poster's you have to come up with a good game plan and often times still be very patient with your approach. There were a number of techs who likely lost billable hours to that problem, and sure some people will say "But if they didn't fix it the customer shouldn't have to pay". The trouble is no one ever thinks about the other side of that coin and what that teaches the techs. If you were the tech and you knew going in that you were likely to not get paid fairly (if at all) for the effort that was going to be required, why would you even bother trying a second time? You would be better off failing and then maybe not be assigned such tasks in the future.
The one thing that poster does say is how he appreciates the shops (techs) effort and because of the result of that repair and that he will always go to him in the future, that makes him about a one in a thousand as consumers go, but that does suggest there may be hope.....
Well actually when re-reading that he says "Got a tough one to figure out. Call Joe Jones at All American Ford in Paramus NJ. Thanks Mr Jones, I am indebted to you." That's not a promise to bring him all of his business, that's only trying to direct more of the nightmares his way.....
Or the mechanic has seen this particular problem three times before, stuck the car on the lift and went right to the spot.
So what happens when the mechanic hasn't seen that exact problem before but saw something similar, so he/she goes to that spot and finds nothing wrong? Or a particular sensor solved a driveability issue on a given car so that part gets replaced but it doesn't fix the car?
In your statement the mechanic is the hero, but using the exact same routine that made him/her a hero one time has a customer walking away thinking that they don't know what they are doing in the other two. That's why the word "repeatable" is important. A solid diagnostic routine that demonstrates experience and knowledge, as well as discipline is repeatable no matter what the problem is, nor where it's occurring.
In the case of the wire rubbed through, burnt on the exhaust I can show you events where that exact damage is found only to have the symptom the car came in for be totally unrelated to that damage. Fixing that damaged wire is a valid step but when it doesn't solve the reported problem the tech gets treated like he/she got it wrong and so the only solution is to first have measured the voltage drops and current spikes and then directly attribute the circuit condition to the damage or not. The little essay that I did on my blog about the camshaft sensor connector is just such an example.
I love the part where Ford just says, "Thanks for buying from us. Have a good life."
When I say that's how they, (and just about every other manufacturer) treat their dealership techs nobody listens. When you really understand just what has been going on you shouldn't be wondering just what it took for Mr. Jones or anyone else became that top tech, you should be wondering we he (we) even bothered trying.
We'll find out if the same problem reoccurs in two weeks and the guy reposts.
But you do hear that often - this car is known to have such-and-such problem. Seems like half the tips section on the sites dedicated to mechanics fall along those lines too.
We'll find out if the same problem reoccurs in two weeks and the guy reposts.
Maybe. He might give up on it and trade it in too. But this also underscores one of the other problems with not having real proof, you leave the vehicle owner in a situation where every-time he goes to use the car he is worried about whether this trip will be the one that proves that the car wasn't really fixed yet.
But you do hear that often - this car is known to have such-and-such problem. Seems like half the tips section on the sites dedicated to mechanics fall along those lines too.
Its relying on that perspective that has the guy dealing with a car he can't trust for nine months.
But you do hear that often - this car is known to have such-and-such problem. Seems like half the tips section on the sites dedicated to mechanics fall along those lines too.
Yesterday was mostly a travel day and I only had a few minutes before presenting a class last night.
In one of the classes I present I have a point where I paint a little picture for the techs and the shop owners and it goes like this.
Picture you have a 2005 Chevrolet Malibu come into the shop and its setting a P0101 Mass Airflow sensor performance. You test the system and confirm the sensor has dropped out of calibration, replace it and road test the car confirming that it is indeed repaired.
Now imagine nineteen more Chevrolet Malibu's and every one of them set that same P0101, and every one of them is repaired by replacing the mass airflow sensor. "How do you approach the twenty-first Malibu that shows up at the shop setting a P0101?"
In your perspective Steve, and in the ideas of anyone who works like you are thinking, you would replace the mass airflow sensor and ship the car. But what if that doesn't fix this car and the light comes back on setting the same code? In that customers eye's they got ripped off, you don't know what you are doing, and they would be correct. (Never mind the fact that you got it right twenty times) The correct answer for that twenty first Malibu should have been to test it exactly the same as you did the first one, and the nineteen in-between and the details would have led you to find the restricted exhaust, or whatever caused the volumetric efficiency of the engine to fall below design expectations. That by the way is what the code really means which is that the airflow being reported by the mass air sensor at a given engine speed and throttle opening is below the threshold value. Sure a sensor under-reporting the airflow will generate that code but its not the only reason that could happen.
The trap here is someone who pulls the code, and throws the part if they get it right can be really fast and can in fact make themselves more money while they are risking getting caught doing sloppy work. The tech who stays disciplined in his/her approach gets it right every time, but since that takes longer, they actually in many cases make less money by the end of the week. What's worse is when that twenty-first car comes back, shops often direct that not to the tech who did the first repair, but to the one who will make sure to figure out what is wrong and solve the problem. Oh, and since its a comeback that means the customer likely isn't getting charged so there is no diagnostic time to be paid and that means the tech isn't getting paid either, well at least not directly. When I worked at the dealership they would promise to "make up the time" by giving me pre-delivery inspections, or other gravy tickets. (The same kinds of work that have grown to be known as wallet flushing)
As far as finding sites dedicated to mechanics that you mention, there are other sites that you likely have never been to that don't advise techs to rely on silver bullets. In fact we prove why trying to do that hurts them as well as the customer and the trade in general. As part of a group (Edmunds) that tries to advise consumers correctly it makes no sense to continue to promote poor habits as if they are really valid. More than 50% of what I do each day is something I've never seen before and likely won't see twice in my career. That's why problems like the fuel pump wiring harness issue mentioned wouldn't even be a note-able event. Nine months the guy fought with that problem that should have been addressed in under an hour. I do blame the perspective that having to rely on someone seeing that failure before in order to solve it is what it took. That's totally false and misleading for the consumers.
Imagine diagnosing a loss of communication between the computers on a Mazda where the chip in the transmission controller that drives the communication signal is failing and causing it to send out a pulsed wave that steps on other modules communication bits. Now also understand that the body computer also acts as the connection hub for the high speed CAN "STAR" network that this is crashing and multiple modules connect to it in ganged plugs. On that car it just so happens that the PCM shares the same plug as the transmission controller, and since the PCM has one of the termination resistors in it so disconnecting that plug shuts down the entire bus the moment that it is disconnected. On top of that, once the network shuts down the problem disappears and it then will take up to half an hour of operation for it to re-occur. That's the kinds of problems that guys like me often deal with today, and tonight I'll be demonstrating how to figure that car out to the techs that are in the class I'm teaching. Just taking the idea that the network is crashing and saying that the transmission controller needs to be replaced isn't good enough because that's what fixed that one car. As a shop you'll make yourself and your tech look foolish when that doesn't work the next time because there is a different cause for the loss of the network. That's the way a techs job really is and the silver bullet stuff needs to be put away with the points and condensers.
Oh, and I got interrupted by my wife as I was collecting some of these. Three calls this morning to have me tow cars in, two of them are at other shops for diagnostics where they are giving up on trying to solve the problems, and here I'm not there to help them. Think about that for a while.
Me too and today as well. Was really bummed that I didn't take my old towels - saw two dead porcupines with quills I could have harvested.
Getting back to this comment:
The trap here is someone who pulls the code, and throws the part if they get it right can be really fast and can in fact make themselves more money
The consumer's side corollary being, of course, is that a lot of Malibu owners will do the same thing d-i-y. Let's say the quick "fix" is $120 ($100 for diagnostics and labor, $20 for parts). Out of the potential $2,400 cost to fix all those Malibus the right way, $2,000 is taken out of the repair shop businesses pockets by the likes of the internet and AutoZone when customers simply install the $20 part themselves. And the fix works.
The 21st guy is out his $20 AutoZone cost and $100 to diagnosis the real problem plus whatever parts and labor the real fix will cost, and a bit of time and inconvenience.
Some economist will have to explain the theory but it surely has a fancy schmancy name stating that efficient car repair markets will eliminate the middleman (you) as much as possible.
Your problem is not the quick fixers - the 21st failures are the ones you need to market your voodoo economics to. There's plenty of work left over for you even allowing for AutoZone and the d-i-y'selfers to prosper.
"Your problem is not the quick fixers - the 21st failures are the ones you need to market your voodoo economics to. There's plenty of work left over for you even allowing for AutoZone and the d-i-y'selfers to prosper."
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Survival is all about the ones best able to adapt to the changing requirements of the times.
For example...
When I entered college in 1970, there was a huge "push" to get students in the schools of pharmacy. Seems the prediction (at that time, anyway) was a future with a severe shortage of pharmacists. Fast forward to today, and at least in the metro areas, there's either a Walgreens or CVS on every corner. If the shortage ever occurred, I never saw it.
In the mid 1970's, there was a mother "push", this time for financial analysts. Seems there simply wasn't anyone interested in the field. Is there a shortage to day? You be the judge.
I also remember the horror tales of no more oil by the start of the 21st century being constantly bantered about in the media, yet here we are, and while we may dislike the prices we pay for petroleum products, there's anything but a shortage of it.
I guess my point is that one can do a little searching and find example after example of the dire straits a particular industry finds itself all tangled up inside of, yet at the end of the day, solutions are found and the problems circumvented.
A great example... Ice. We don't have ice boxes or the daily visit from the ice delivery man anymore, but we all still have ice. Few would argue the way we get ice at home today to be inferior to the way we used to get it. And, its cheaper and more reliable, too!
My own personal feeling is that, if the volume of non-repairable cars gets to the level where manufacturers start losing significant sales, we'll see a change in how they're serviced (or assembled, or both).
When we start seeing high volumes of late model abandoned vehicles sitting along the side of the roads in neighborhoods, city streets and interstates because they can't be repaired, then I may change my outlook.
Voodoo economics comes from attempting to assign prices as you did. DIY, AutoZone, heck even corporations like AAMCO preach "free" diagnostics so forget your $100 that you wrote in there and simply quote the part.
The twenty odd diagnostic events is just to represent a habit, not a fixed percentage of accuracy. To the one consumer who's vehicle wasn't repaired, be his the second, or the one hundred and second (exaggeration increased) its a 100% failure in his eyes and that's where all of the anecdotal stories come from.
There's plenty of work left over for you even allowing for AutoZone and the d-i-y'selfers to prosper.
"My Problem"? It isn't my problem, its the consumers. The return on the investment to deal with the ones that aren't typical doesn't support even trying. Seems everyone keeps thinking, well someone will have to do it and that's the error. No-one HAS to do it and the ones of us that still can are leaving it behind, hence the links.
When we start seeing high volumes of late model abandoned vehicles sitting along the side of the roads in neighborhoods, city streets and interstates because they can't be repaired, then I may change my outlook.
"I do believe that some sort of certificate, skills assessment and certification program, would actually benefit our industry greatly. And I think it will come to that and when that happens it will, once again, raise the level of credibility of our industry to the consumers.
I couldn't agree more with that statement.
If the fellow that handles my pest control at my house is required to have a certificate in order to spray for roaches, then a mechanic ought to be required to have a certificate before working on 2-ton semi-guided missiles-on-wheels.
The problem, I fear, is determining what knowledge should be required in order to obtain the certificate, as well as how often it should be renewed.
In the future the telemetric communication will send you a fix code and have the part waiting for you when you get to the dealership. I wonder if a fix code will say " your wiring harness has been smashed against an exhaust pipe and is causing the problem" or " this malfunction code coming from your transmission sensor is related to a plastic bag you picked up on the highway [no longer there] that melted and caused a defect in the wire 4 inches from the sensor"
Voodoo economics comes from attempting to assign prices as you did. DIY, AutoZone, heck even corporations like AAMCO preach "free" diagnostics so forget your $100 that you wrote in there and simply quote the part.
That's what I was trying to say - 20 of us spend $20 on a part and go on our way, and get our diagnostics done free, either at a shop or on the net. The 21st guy gets burned and has to try to get his parts money back at AutoZone and has to pay a real tech to get the car fixed.
Not my problem, unless I'm the 21st guy. And even then I'm still going back to the net for second opinions before "yelping" a tech.
If it gets as bad as you predict, dealers won't be able to handle warranty work and people will start suing the manufacturers. People get really upset if they are making payments on a car that won't run. I doubt that it'll get that bad - going back to the Rx example, there were lots of $50k bonuses for new pharmacist hires for a while there.
"The twenty odd diagnostic events is just to represent a habit, not a fixed percentage of accuracy. To the one consumer who's vehicle wasn't repaired, be his the second, or the one hundred and second (exaggeration increased) its a 100% failure in his eyes and that's where all of the anecdotal stories come from."
I still think you downplay the usefulness of just replacing a module, especially when that module is known to be the cause of a particular problem in 19 out of 20 cases.
In this case, how much does the diagnostic cost - $100?
What if you were dealing with a system that required 3 or 4 $200/hour engineers, two or three days of lost time on a system (1 day tear down, 1 day troubleshooting, and 1 day re-installation), vs taking an hour or two to swap out a module and see if that fixes the problem? What would you recommend doing, knowing that your customer is going to be asking you why he can't use his system???
Like Steve said - 20x$20 vs 20x$120, or maybe more correctly (19x$20)+$120 vs 20x$120.
"I do believe that some sort of certificate, skills assessment and certification program, would actually benefit our industry greatly.
I couldn't agree more with that statement.That's what I was trying to say - 20 of us spend $20 on a part and go on our way, and get our diagnostics done free, either at a shop or on the net. The 21st guy gets burned and has to try to get his parts money back at AutoZone and has to pay a real tech to get the car fixed.
Not my problem, unless I'm the 21st guy. And even then I'm still going back to the net for second opinions before "yelping" a tech.
It's consumerism that is one of the greatest hurdles to strengthening the technician workforce.
If the fellow that handles my pest control at my house is required to have a certificate in order to spray for roaches, then a mechanic ought to be required to have a certificate before working on 2-ton semi-guided missiles-on-wheels.
All someone needs is a credit card to buy some tools and let the guessing begin and that's exactly how Steve wants it to be. It's funny watching hem say "If it gets as bad as you predict, dealers won't be able to handle warranty work and people will start suing the manufacturers." because its attitudes like his that are working to prevent the trade from moving forward.
The problem, I fear, is determining what knowledge should be required in order to obtain the certificate, as well as how often it should be renewed.
We can answer that question, consumers, dealers and even manufacturers refuse to let us.
I still think you downplay the usefulness of just replacing a module, especially when that module is known to be the cause of a particular problem in 19 out of 20 cases
Downplay it? We are "rip-offs, hacks, FNG's, incompetents etc.etc. " if we can't repair a vehicle without resorting to throwing parts.
In this case, how much does the diagnostic cost - $100?
Diagnosing a P0101 accurately, under $65 at my shop. Keep in mind I still have to compete on the street with the ones who think it should be free.
What if you were dealing with a system that required 3 or 4 $200/hour engineers, two or three days of lost time on a system (1 day tear down, 1 day troubleshooting, and 1 day re-installation), vs taking an hour or two to swap out a module and see if that fixes the problem? What would you recommend doing, knowing that your customer is going to be asking you why he can't use his system???
Apples, meet Oranges, and besides who ever accused an engineer of being able to develop and practice good diagnostic skills?
It's probably free at my shop, at least based on a conversation and not actually pulling the car into the bay. And depending on what the issue is, my guy would probably send me to the parts store and tell me to try swapping something else myself. :-)
It's probably free at my shop, at least based on a conversation and not actually pulling the car into the bay
Key word, "Accurate"
Without pulling the car in, connecting the scan tool and then driving the vehicle while recording the data and then graphing and analyzing it back in the shop, your not going to be accurate. That's also part of the problem with attempting remote diagnostics, the person on the other end of the data stream can't feel what the car is doing, doesn't know for sure what the driver is doing with the throttle, can't see the fuel pressure gage (if used), and doesn't know whether the scope test points were chosen wisely or made correctly and on and on.
How accurate do you have to be to try a new resistor for $20 to see if that fixes it?
Great question, how accurate do we have to be? Any failure for any one customer is a 100% failure to them. It doesn't matter if you did get it right 98 times before that, it only matters that you failed once.
I'm thinking more in terms of good odds for a consumer doing those kinds of "easy" jobs themselves. Save the techs for when the code readers and internet fail me, the consumer.
The biggest takeaway I got from your oil wallet flushing link is that now I can save my "generic" receipts, then sue the shop when I blow up my engine. I'll make sure the shop does my brake work too.
Well, first, I'll make sure they are a big outfit with deep pockets, like a multiple dealer group, since I'll be sure to win if they don't use a 400 word paragraph to describe the oil they slammed into my 2015 Hupmobile. :-)
Yesterday I took my 2012 Honda Civic in for a oil change and tire rotation at a Honda dealership. When I got there service advisor says $70, I say I got a coupon. He asks if it's 10%off. I smile and say it's a little better than that. It's a coupon for $29.95. O.k. No problem there. In and out in 40 minutes. Not even charged tax , handling or disposal fee. Flat 29.95 for everything.
In looking at service papers a few minutes ago, it says 4.5 quarts of Honda 5w-20 was used. That's 5w-20... not the 0w-20 that manufacturers specifications call for. Only grade allowed to use is 0w-20. Clear?
This has happened before... about 5 years ago on my Mazda MPV. When I called then to complain, the service advisor said it was entered improperly into the computer. Ok... don't really buy it. But, higher viscosity accepted in hotter weather. Shouldn't matter that much.
Now... what would you do? Is it possible they could have screwed up with an input error? Is it more likely an tech error in putting in the wrong oil? This car only has 10k miles, so either way I'm not too happy. If there was a engine problem down the road, could I use the service receipt as proof the dealership is at fault? I'll call tomorrow and see what dealership has to say.
After all the talk about oil specs, thought this slippery question could be handled here.
I'm thinking more in terms of good odds for a consumer doing those kinds of "easy" jobs themselves. Save the techs for when the code readers and internet fail me, the consumer.
How do you save the techs for that day if they aren't earning a living, let alone have the resources to be trained and equipped to deal with the problem in the meantime?
The biggest takeaway I got from your oil wallet flushing link is that now I can save my "generic" receipts, then sue the shop when I blow up my engine.
You got that part correct, you will be able to do that. That will work even greater to eliminate shops and techs since they won't have the financial strength to cope with the situation.
,I>Well, first, I'll make sure they are a big outfit with deep pockets, like a multiple dealer group, since I'll be sure to win if they don't use a 400 word paragraph to describe the oil they slammed into my 2015
Ahh, no. That part you failed to understand. They already understand the documentation required and its as simple as using the manufacturers specification exclusively. You will be able to get the ones that don't understand the laws and drive them out of business, but not the progressive dealers, they will get this right and without competition want to guess what's going to happen to your pricing?
Sales receipt says they use oil to manufacturers specifications. They didn't.
After all this talk in here about adhering to man.specs due to tighter clearances in engines, I thought higher grade oil would be bad. I guess u get better mpg with the sewing machine oil.
Personally, I don't like sewing machine oil like 0 weight in my cars. I would have been happy they used 5-20.
Without education for everyone that describes one of the problems we already face. Someone who follows the recommendations, and now the law as required will have customers who aren't aware of the situation misunderstanding it and finding fault with the shop for doing the job right.
BTW, it should be the responsibility of automotive information outlets (such as Edmunds and many others) to present the facts in an unbiased, accurate series of informational articles. IMO.
It wouldn't hurt if they started by editing and correcting the errors in some of the information that can already be found on this site, and instead of letting comments based on a lack of understanding to be voted popular, address the misconceptions. Steve noted he might be able to try for a windfall when something goes wrong with a car because it wasn't serviced and documented correctly. What's going to happen when the defendant extends the suit using flawed information from "professionals" as his defense for not knowing that things had changed? The defendant would now also be able to point out that Steve now has been informed of the changes and should he choose to ignore them would now be complicit towards any future failures since his career has him in a possession of greater knowledge.
"Great question, how accurate do we have to be? Any failure for any one customer is a 100% failure to them. It doesn't matter if you did get it right 98 times before that, it only matters that you failed once."
But it's really not a failure if you explain the options to the customer the right way.
"I'm pretty sure it's the blower motor resistor. I've seen this failure many times in the past on vehicles similar to yours. I can replace that for you for $20 parts + $20 labor. That will in all likelyhood fix the problem. However, I have seen cases where it was not the resistor, and in those cases it takes some time to troubleshoot to get to the root cause. I can usually narrow it down with 1 hour of diagnostic time, say $85. Then the charge would be the diag time plus whatever it cost to repair or replace the bad component. What would you like me to do?"
How do you save the techs for that day if they aren't earning a living
It's not my job to feed techs busy work so they can feed their families. Making a living is their problem.
They already understand the documentation required
Well, Jipster just blew that theory out of the water with his Honda dealership example.
Maybe if Jipster sues Honda and the dealer, the dealer will get clued in and figure out how to train, supervise and retain techs.
Notice that without the coupon, Jip's oil change would have been more than double, even though he wound up with an apparently incompetent or (indifferent) tech. Must be the only Honda dealer around for miles.
You own your own posts here. Edmunds isn't posting the information in the forums---individuals are. If anything, the "education" that is needed is to regard all Internet posts with skepticism, and search out the facts for yourself, that will either substantiate what someone posted, or refute it.
The defendant would now also be able to point out that Steve now has been informed of the changes and should he choose to ignore them
Ah, but it's not my job to tell the techs how to do their jobs. They are the pros. All I need to do is request an oil change, and if they botch it, it's not my fault for not telling them to insure they use the right oil.
That gets us back to your link about putting the fluids info on the invoice. 90% of customers won't read that, and of the 10% that do, 90% of them won't understand what it means, nor will they care.
No customer really knows what oil viscosity was put in your car. You can believe what is written on the receipt of what the adviser tells you. As far as having 20 weight vs zero weight oil causing engine failure down the road -- good luck with that lawsuit. It might be an issue with a Ferrari or Lamborghini but with a Honda ? I think you would be ok but then again, it might be worth fretting about. The $29 service coupons are targeted to older cars that give the dealer an opportunity to recommend additional work. Newer cars under warranty are money losers. I wonder how much a tech makes on a $29 oil change/tire rotation ? They charge $39 for my Buick LaCrosse -- when I get it done in 3 months, I'll ask.
"Ah, but it's not my job to tell the techs how to do their jobs. They are the pros. All I need to do is request an oil change, and if they botch it, it's not my fault for not telling them to insure they use the right oil. "
I tend to agree. It seems like a double standard to, on one hand, suggest the work be done by the "pros" that have the knowledge, and then, on the other hand, give the same "pros" a "get out of jail free" card when they don't follow the manufacturer's requirements.
That's one of the main reasons the auto repair business finds itself where it is today. Most folks can deal with the occasional repair failure, as long as the repair facility doesn't attempt double-talking their way out of it.
Comments
Recently had problem with our 2011 Hyundai Veracruz. Wouldn't go into park or reverse when electronic stability control light came on. Googled symptoms. Came up stop light switch was bad. Dealership confirmed and replaced under warranty.
Y'all should see the new set of jack stands I just picked up from Nairobi.
For some of that stuff, I would shop architectural salvage or second hand stores, and re-use vintage items. Old tools can be bargains at auctions or estate sales. For things like faucets and similar hardware, it might all be made in China these days, save for top of the line Hansgrohe style stuff - another place to buy old items and re-use them. The benefits aren't reaching the consumer.
My grandmother's ~50 year old house still has many original fixtures, no doubt all made in USA...I doubt most of this new cheap stuff will fare as well.
No one is interested in getting an engine from Kohler-YinXiang?
One thing about both of those companies is that for the master bath I reburbished 14 years ago or the lavatories and kitchen faucets, I just call about the ceramic valves or other parts and they send replacements at no charge. Customer for life.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
While at dealership they tried to sell me a emissions service for $149. At only 26k miles... no thanks.
98 Lincoln Town Car dies at highway speeds. New everything and still dies. Help.
Down toward the bottom the poster explains the quick fix after 9 months and several other shops struggling to find the problem.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
The one thing that poster does say is how he appreciates the shops (techs) effort and because of the result of that repair and that he will always go to him in the future, that makes him about a one in a thousand as consumers go, but that does suggest there may be hope.....
I love the part where Ford just says, "Thanks for buying from us. Have a good life."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
So what happens when the mechanic hasn't seen that exact problem before but saw something similar, so he/she goes to that spot and finds nothing wrong? Or a particular sensor solved a driveability issue on a given car so that part gets replaced but it doesn't fix the car?
In your statement the mechanic is the hero, but using the exact same routine that made him/her a hero one time has a customer walking away thinking that they don't know what they are doing in the other two. That's why the word "repeatable" is important. A solid diagnostic routine that demonstrates experience and knowledge, as well as discipline is repeatable no matter what the problem is, nor where it's occurring.
In the case of the wire rubbed through, burnt on the exhaust I can show you events where that exact damage is found only to have the symptom the car came in for be totally unrelated to that damage. Fixing that damaged wire is a valid step but when it doesn't solve the reported problem the tech gets treated like he/she got it wrong and so the only solution is to first have measured the voltage drops and current spikes and then directly attribute the circuit condition to the damage or not. The little essay that I did on my blog about the camshaft sensor connector is just such an example.
When I say that's how they, (and just about every other manufacturer) treat their dealership techs nobody listens. When you really understand just what has been going on you shouldn't be wondering just what it took for Mr. Jones or anyone else became that top tech, you should be wondering we he (we) even bothered trying.
But you do hear that often - this car is known to have such-and-such problem. Seems like half the tips section on the sites dedicated to mechanics fall along those lines too.
Maybe. He might give up on it and trade it in too. But this also underscores one of the other problems with not having real proof, you leave the vehicle owner in a situation where every-time he goes to use the car he is worried about whether this trip will be the one that proves that the car wasn't really fixed yet.
But you do hear that often - this car is known to have such-and-such problem. Seems like half the tips section on the sites dedicated to mechanics fall along those lines too.
Its relying on that perspective that has the guy dealing with a car he can't trust for nine months.
Yesterday was mostly a travel day and I only had a few minutes before presenting a class last night.
In one of the classes I present I have a point where I paint a little picture for the techs and the shop owners and it goes like this.
Picture you have a 2005 Chevrolet Malibu come into the shop and its setting a P0101 Mass Airflow sensor performance. You test the system and confirm the sensor has dropped out of calibration, replace it and road test the car confirming that it is indeed repaired.
Now imagine nineteen more Chevrolet Malibu's and every one of them set that same P0101, and every one of them is repaired by replacing the mass airflow sensor. "How do you approach the twenty-first Malibu that shows up at the shop setting a P0101?"
In your perspective Steve, and in the ideas of anyone who works like you are thinking, you would replace the mass airflow sensor and ship the car. But what if that doesn't fix this car and the light comes back on setting the same code? In that customers eye's they got ripped off, you don't know what you are doing, and they would be correct. (Never mind the fact that you got it right twenty times) The correct answer for that twenty first Malibu should have been to test it exactly the same as you did the first one, and the nineteen in-between and the details would have led you to find the restricted exhaust, or whatever caused the volumetric efficiency of the engine to fall below design expectations. That by the way is what the code really means which is that the airflow being reported by the mass air sensor at a given engine speed and throttle opening is below the threshold value. Sure a sensor under-reporting the airflow will generate that code but its not the only reason that could happen.
The trap here is someone who pulls the code, and throws the part if they get it right can be really fast and can in fact make themselves more money while they are risking getting caught doing sloppy work. The tech who stays disciplined in his/her approach gets it right every time, but since that takes longer, they actually in many cases make less money by the end of the week. What's worse is when that twenty-first car comes back, shops often direct that not to the tech who did the first repair, but to the one who will make sure to figure out what is wrong and solve the problem. Oh, and since its a comeback that means the customer likely isn't getting charged so there is no diagnostic time to be paid and that means the tech isn't getting paid either, well at least not directly. When I worked at the dealership they would promise to "make up the time" by giving me pre-delivery inspections, or other gravy tickets. (The same kinds of work that have grown to be known as wallet flushing)
As far as finding sites dedicated to mechanics that you mention, there are other sites that you likely have never been to that don't advise techs to rely on silver bullets. In fact we prove why trying to do that hurts them as well as the customer and the trade in general. As part of a group (Edmunds) that tries to advise consumers correctly it makes no sense to continue to promote poor habits as if they are really valid. More than 50% of what I do each day is something I've never seen before and likely won't see twice in my career. That's why problems like the fuel pump wiring harness issue mentioned wouldn't even be a note-able event. Nine months the guy fought with that problem that should have been addressed in under an hour. I do blame the perspective that having to rely on someone seeing that failure before in order to solve it is what it took. That's totally false and misleading for the consumers.
Imagine diagnosing a loss of communication between the computers on a Mazda where the chip in the transmission controller that drives the communication signal is failing and causing it to send out a pulsed wave that steps on other modules communication bits. Now also understand that the body computer also acts as the connection hub for the high speed CAN "STAR" network that this is crashing and multiple modules connect to it in ganged plugs. On that car it just so happens that the PCM shares the same plug as the transmission controller, and since the PCM has one of the termination resistors in it so disconnecting that plug shuts down the entire bus the moment that it is disconnected. On top of that, once the network shuts down the problem disappears and it then will take up to half an hour of operation for it to re-occur. That's the kinds of problems that guys like me often deal with today, and tonight I'll be demonstrating how to figure that car out to the techs that are in the class I'm teaching. Just taking the idea that the network is crashing and saying that the transmission controller needs to be replaced isn't good enough because that's what fixed that one car. As a shop you'll make yourself and your tech look foolish when that doesn't work the next time because there is a different cause for the loss of the network. That's the way a techs job really is and the silver bullet stuff needs to be put away with the points and condensers.
http://www.indeed.com/forum/job/automotive-technician/AUTOMOTIVE-TECHNICAINS-DON- - T-GET-PAID-WELL/t32112
https://www.google.com/search?btnG=1&pws=0&q=automotive+technician+low+pay
Plenty more where those came from.....
Oh, and I got interrupted by my wife as I was collecting some of these. Three calls this morning to have me tow cars in, two of them are at other shops for diagnostics where they are giving up on trying to solve the problems, and here I'm not there to help them. Think about that for a while.
Me too and today as well. Was really bummed that I didn't take my old towels - saw two dead porcupines with quills I could have harvested.
Getting back to this comment:
The trap here is someone who pulls the code, and throws the part if they get it right can be really fast and can in fact make themselves more money
The consumer's side corollary being, of course, is that a lot of Malibu owners will do the same thing d-i-y. Let's say the quick "fix" is $120 ($100 for diagnostics and labor, $20 for parts). Out of the potential $2,400 cost to fix all those Malibus the right way, $2,000 is taken out of the repair shop businesses pockets by the likes of the internet and AutoZone when customers simply install the $20 part themselves. And the fix works.
The 21st guy is out his $20 AutoZone cost and $100 to diagnosis the real problem plus whatever parts and labor the real fix will cost, and a bit of time and inconvenience.
Some economist will have to explain the theory but it surely has a fancy schmancy name stating that efficient car repair markets will eliminate the middleman (you) as much as possible.
Your problem is not the quick fixers - the 21st failures are the ones you need to market your voodoo economics to. There's plenty of work left over for you even allowing for AutoZone and the d-i-y'selfers to prosper.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Survival is all about the ones best able to adapt to the changing requirements of the times.
For example...
When I entered college in 1970, there was a huge "push" to get students in the schools of pharmacy. Seems the prediction (at that time, anyway) was a future with a severe shortage of pharmacists. Fast forward to today, and at least in the metro areas, there's either a Walgreens or CVS on every corner. If the shortage ever occurred, I never saw it.
In the mid 1970's, there was a mother "push", this time for financial analysts. Seems there simply wasn't anyone interested in the field. Is there a shortage to day? You be the judge.
I also remember the horror tales of no more oil by the start of the 21st century being constantly bantered about in the media, yet here we are, and while we may dislike the prices we pay for petroleum products, there's anything but a shortage of it.
I guess my point is that one can do a little searching and find example after example of the dire straits a particular industry finds itself all tangled up inside of, yet at the end of the day, solutions are found and the problems circumvented.
A great example... Ice. We don't have ice boxes or the daily visit from the ice delivery man anymore, but we all still have ice. Few would argue the way we get ice at home today to be inferior to the way we used to get it. And, its cheaper and more reliable, too!
My own personal feeling is that, if the volume of non-repairable cars gets to the level where manufacturers start losing significant sales, we'll see a change in how they're serviced (or assembled, or both).
When we start seeing high volumes of late model abandoned vehicles sitting along the side of the roads in neighborhoods, city streets and interstates because they can't be repaired, then I may change my outlook.
The twenty odd diagnostic events is just to represent a habit, not a fixed percentage of accuracy. To the one consumer who's vehicle wasn't repaired, be his the second, or the one hundred and second (exaggeration increased) its a 100% failure in his eyes and that's where all of the anecdotal stories come from.
There's plenty of work left over for you even allowing for AutoZone and the d-i-y'selfers to prosper.
"My Problem"? It isn't my problem, its the consumers. The return on the investment to deal with the ones that aren't typical doesn't support even trying. Seems everyone keeps thinking, well someone will have to do it and that's the error. No-one HAS to do it and the ones of us that still can are leaving it behind, hence the links.
http://www.tirebusiness.com/article/20130917/SERVICEZONE/130919922/incoming-vehi- cle-technology-will-challenge-techs
"I do believe that some sort of certificate, skills assessment and certification program, would actually benefit our industry greatly. And I think it will come to that and when that happens it will, once again, raise the level of credibility of our industry to the consumers.
I couldn't agree more with that statement.
If the fellow that handles my pest control at my house is required to have a certificate in order to spray for roaches, then a mechanic ought to be required to have a certificate before working on 2-ton semi-guided missiles-on-wheels.
The problem, I fear, is determining what knowledge should be required in order to obtain the certificate, as well as how often it should be renewed.
That's what I was trying to say - 20 of us spend $20 on a part and go on our way, and get our diagnostics done free, either at a shop or on the net. The 21st guy gets burned and has to try to get his parts money back at AutoZone and has to pay a real tech to get the car fixed.
Not my problem, unless I'm the 21st guy. And even then I'm still going back to the net for second opinions before "yelping" a tech.
If it gets as bad as you predict, dealers won't be able to handle warranty work and people will start suing the manufacturers. People get really upset if they are making payments on a car that won't run. I doubt that it'll get that bad - going back to the Rx example, there were lots of $50k bonuses for new pharmacist hires for a while there.
I still think you downplay the usefulness of just replacing a module, especially when that module is known to be the cause of a particular problem in 19 out of 20 cases.
In this case, how much does the diagnostic cost - $100?
What if you were dealing with a system that required 3 or 4 $200/hour engineers, two or three days of lost time on a system (1 day tear down, 1 day troubleshooting, and 1 day re-installation), vs taking an hour or two to swap out a module and see if that fixes the problem? What would you recommend doing, knowing that your customer is going to be asking you why he can't use his system???
Like Steve said - 20x$20 vs 20x$120, or maybe more correctly (19x$20)+$120 vs 20x$120.
I couldn't agree more with that statement.That's what I was trying to say - 20 of us spend $20 on a part and go on our way, and get our diagnostics done free, either at a shop or on the net. The 21st guy gets burned and has to try to get his parts money back at AutoZone and has to pay a real tech to get the car fixed.
Not my problem, unless I'm the 21st guy. And even then I'm still going back to the net for second opinions before "yelping" a tech.
It's consumerism that is one of the greatest hurdles to strengthening the technician workforce.
If the fellow that handles my pest control at my house is required to have a certificate in order to spray for roaches, then a mechanic ought to be required to have a certificate before working on 2-ton semi-guided missiles-on-wheels.
All someone needs is a credit card to buy some tools and let the guessing begin and that's exactly how Steve wants it to be. It's funny watching hem say
"If it gets as bad as you predict, dealers won't be able to handle warranty work and people will start suing the manufacturers." because its attitudes like his that are working to prevent the trade from moving forward.
The problem, I fear, is determining what knowledge should be required in order to obtain the certificate, as well as how often it should be renewed.
We can answer that question, consumers, dealers and even manufacturers refuse to let us.
Downplay it? We are "rip-offs, hacks, FNG's, incompetents etc.etc. " if we can't repair a vehicle without resorting to throwing parts.
In this case, how much does the diagnostic cost - $100?
Diagnosing a P0101 accurately, under $65 at my shop. Keep in mind I still have to compete on the street with the ones who think it should be free.
What if you were dealing with a system that required 3 or 4 $200/hour engineers, two or three days of lost time on a system (1 day tear down, 1 day troubleshooting, and 1 day re-installation), vs taking an hour or two to swap out a module and see if that fixes the problem? What would you recommend doing, knowing that your customer is going to be asking you why he can't use his system???
Apples, meet Oranges, and besides who ever accused an engineer of being able to develop and practice good diagnostic skills?
(thanks for the math SRS).
Key word, "Accurate"
Without pulling the car in, connecting the scan tool and then driving the vehicle while recording the data and then graphing and analyzing it back in the shop, your not going to be accurate. That's also part of the problem with attempting remote diagnostics, the person on the other end of the data stream can't feel what the car is doing, doesn't know for sure what the driver is doing with the throttle, can't see the fuel pressure gage (if used), and doesn't know whether the scope test points were chosen wisely or made correctly and on and on.
http://workshop.search-autoparts.com/_Wallet-Flushing-Motor-Oil-Invoicing-And-Yo- u/blog/6549766/31710.html?cid=95883
And what do you suppose the ratio is on that fix - probably 98 out of a 100 times the new part fixes the issue?
I've seen numerous advertisements from "health clinics" that make outlandish claims of health benefits from "colon flushing" (no pun intended).
Every industry has its own versions of crooks and charlatans, I guess....
Great question, how accurate do we have to be? Any failure for any one customer is a 100% failure to them. It doesn't matter if you did get it right 98 times before that, it only matters that you failed once.
The biggest takeaway I got from your oil wallet flushing link is that now I can save my "generic" receipts, then sue the shop when I blow up my engine. I'll make sure the shop does my brake work too.
Well, first, I'll make sure they are a big outfit with deep pockets, like a multiple dealer group, since I'll be sure to win if they don't use a 400 word paragraph to describe the oil they slammed into my 2015 Hupmobile. :-)
In looking at service papers a few minutes ago, it says 4.5 quarts of Honda 5w-20 was used. That's 5w-20... not the 0w-20 that manufacturers specifications call for. Only grade allowed to use is 0w-20. Clear?
This has happened before... about 5 years ago on my Mazda MPV. When I called then to complain, the service advisor said it was entered improperly into the computer. Ok... don't really buy it. But, higher viscosity accepted in hotter weather. Shouldn't matter that much.
Now... what would you do? Is it possible they could have screwed up with an input error? Is it more likely an tech error in putting in the wrong oil? This car only has 10k miles, so either way I'm not too happy. If there was a engine problem down the road, could I use the service receipt as proof the dealership is at fault? I'll call tomorrow and see what dealership has to say.
After all the talk about oil specs, thought this slippery question could be handled here.
How do you save the techs for that day if they aren't earning a living, let alone have the resources to be trained and equipped to deal with the problem in the meantime?
The biggest takeaway I got from your oil wallet flushing link is that now I can save my "generic" receipts, then sue the shop when I blow up my engine.
You got that part correct, you will be able to do that. That will work even greater to eliminate shops and techs since they won't have the financial strength to cope with the situation.
,I>Well, first, I'll make sure they are a big outfit with deep pockets, like a multiple dealer group, since I'll be sure to win if they don't use a 400 word paragraph to describe the oil they slammed into my 2015
Ahh, no. That part you failed to understand. They already understand the documentation required and its as simple as using the manufacturers specification exclusively. You will be able to get the ones that don't understand the laws and drive them out of business, but not the progressive dealers, they will get this right and without competition want to guess what's going to happen to your pricing?
Nothing. The difference between 0 weight and 5 weight won't make the slightest twit in the life of your engine.
Personally, I don't like sewing machine oil like 0 weight in my cars.
I would have been happy they used 5-20.
After all this talk in here about adhering to man.specs due to tighter clearances in engines, I thought higher grade oil would be bad. I guess u get better mpg with the sewing machine oil.
The 0w-20 oil is more expensive though.
I would have been happy they used 5-20.
Without education for everyone that describes one of the problems we already face. Someone who follows the recommendations, and now the law as required will have customers who aren't aware of the situation misunderstanding it and finding fault with the shop for doing the job right.
BTW, it should be the responsibility of automotive information outlets (such as Edmunds and many others) to present the facts in an unbiased, accurate series of informational articles. IMO.
It wouldn't hurt if they started by editing and correcting the errors in some of the information that can already be found on this site, and instead of letting comments based on a lack of understanding to be voted popular, address the misconceptions. Steve noted he might be able to try for a windfall when something goes wrong with a car because it wasn't serviced and documented correctly. What's going to happen when the defendant extends the suit using flawed information from "professionals" as his defense for not knowing that things had changed? The defendant would now also be able to point out that Steve now has been informed of the changes and should he choose to ignore them would now be complicit towards any future failures since his career has him in a possession of greater knowledge.
But it's really not a failure if you explain the options to the customer the right way.
"I'm pretty sure it's the blower motor resistor. I've seen this failure many times in the past on vehicles similar to yours. I can replace that for you for $20 parts + $20 labor. That will in all likelyhood fix the problem. However, I have seen cases where it was not the resistor, and in those cases it takes some time to troubleshoot to get to the root cause. I can usually narrow it down with 1 hour of diagnostic time, say $85. Then the charge would be the diag time plus whatever it cost to repair or replace the bad component. What would you like me to do?"
It's not my job to feed techs busy work so they can feed their families. Making a living is their problem.
They already understand the documentation required
Well, Jipster just blew that theory out of the water with his Honda dealership example.
Maybe if Jipster sues Honda and the dealer, the dealer will get clued in and figure out how to train, supervise and retain techs.
Notice that without the coupon, Jip's oil change would have been more than double, even though he wound up with an apparently incompetent or (indifferent) tech. Must be the only Honda dealer around for miles.
Ah, but it's not my job to tell the techs how to do their jobs. They are the pros. All I need to do is request an oil change, and if they botch it, it's not my fault for not telling them to insure they use the right oil.
That gets us back to your link about putting the fluids info on the invoice. 90% of customers won't read that, and of the 10% that do, 90% of them won't understand what it means, nor will they care.
The $29 service coupons are targeted to older cars that give the dealer an opportunity to recommend additional work. Newer cars under warranty are money losers. I wonder how much a tech makes on a $29 oil change/tire rotation ? They charge $39 for my Buick LaCrosse -- when I get it done in 3 months, I'll ask.
Not all that many manufacturers offer free oil changes during warranty so I'm not sure I agree with your targeted market comment.
I tend to agree. It seems like a double standard to, on one hand, suggest the work be done by the "pros" that have the knowledge, and then, on the other hand, give the same "pros" a "get out of jail free" card when they don't follow the manufacturer's requirements.
That's one of the main reasons the auto repair business finds itself where it is today. Most folks can deal with the occasional repair failure, as long as the repair facility doesn't attempt double-talking their way out of it.
At least, I'm that way.