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I got an email survey from dealership this morning. If I had any issues with my service, call or email before completing survey.So waiting to hear back from dealership.
This is the type of "mistake" one could expect from a quickie lube, not a multi-billion dollar dealership.
I do- because I provide the oil.(and yes cardoc, the two shops where I provide the oil told me to bring my own oil if I want to use synthetic). I do allow my BMW dealer to provide the oil for my wife's 3er, as it is still in warranty- but I'm 100% confident that they are using BMW 5W-30 synthetic.
In any event, my UOAs correlate perfectly with the oil that I-or the dealer- provide, so I seriously doubt that the techs are swiping my oil and pouring in generic rotgut.
And one final thing- a pet peeve of mine- the "W" in an oil designation denotes "Winter" not "weight" oil thickness is measured by viscosity.
We now return you to the perpetual discussion of sainted techs and the trevails of dealing with evil/stupid/tightwad vehicle owners...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
But we don't work on those cars anymore and trying to force our businesses, and our jobs to fit that out dated model only leads to headaches and disappointment. I could sit here and throw out numbers and try to tell you how to approach a problem with the systems you attend to just like you just did. If I did that, I would be just as far off base as you are here.
So then what are these???
http://www.edmunds.com/car-maintenance
http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/stop-changing-your-oil.html
http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/do-i-have-to-use-the-manufacturers-oil.html
However, the miniscule difference between 0 weight and 5 weight in my opinion wouldn't amount to anything as far as "hurting" the engine in cold weather. Just my opinion mind you and again, were it my car I could care less.
The thinner the oil, the better the gas mileage and using 0 instead of 5 weight might save a gallon of gas in 10,000 miles.
A "tempest in a teapot" but again, I agree they were dead WRONG to put in the incorrect oil!
Thanks Jay, and that's exactly the point. This article written by Kevin
http://workshop.search-autoparts.com/_Wallet-Flushing-Motor-Oil-Invoicing-And-Yo- u/blog/6549766/31710.html?cid=95883
that I linked to dispels a lot of the advertising issues. What you read here in those Edmunds articles aren't accurate and do not advise you correctly about how to choose the correct product for your car. There is still a lot more that you and every consumer needs to know about this important subject and the incorrect information should be addressed ASAP. But yet that article still stands. IMO, It's going to take consumers to raise their voices and find out why that is.
Let's see. You have no problem acting in that fashion if you are sure they didn't do something correctly, but when it comes to being pro-active and help make sure that everything gets done right you want to claim that it's not your place.
Where I'm coming from you have every right to be critical, but the moment you exercised that right you earned the responsibility to follow all the way through with the rest of the program the moment you stuck your nose into it. You work in forum that is supposed to provide advice to consumers, that means you should be ready to fulfill that task completely. JMHO
"The Forums section of Edmunds provides a venue for members to communicate with each other about all things automotive. Each discussion in Forums is monitored by an Edmunds Host to ensure a high-quality, civil environment free from pressure or solicitations. "
Our comments here aren't "professional" automotive advice nor is the accuracy of any info here guaranteed; we try to keep y'all mostly on topic, zap spam and do other housekeeping chores. The fun part for most of us is engaging in car talk with the other members.
And again, it's not the consumer's job to be responsible for telling the auto techs how to do their job.
If you see a spammer, we appreciate a heads up. But we'll get to it pretty quickly ourselves. That's our job.
If I see a spanner lying on my air filter after an oil change, I'll give the tech a heads up. But I'm not going to tell the tech to park spanners in the toolbox between uses. That's the tech's job. :-)
Well they should, and mine do. If someone is taking their car to a place that leave them not knowing what was done, then they are going to the wrong place!
As far as having 20 weight vs zero weight oil causing engine failure down the road -- good luck with that lawsuit
With the new laws going into effect a lawsuit will be the last thing that some have to worry about.
The $29 service coupons are targeted to older cars that give the dealer an opportunity to recommend additional work.
Not only that, its targeted for cars that don't require products that meet the same specifications that many of the newer cars do. Business guru's want to call such practices "loss leaders", but it's more accurate to call the managers who use such tactics "lost leaders."
Newer cars under warranty are money losers.
Almost all "oil changes" are losers. That's why they try to sell so many services.
I wonder how much a tech makes on a $29 oil change/tire rotation ? They charge $39 for my Buick LaCrosse -- when I get it done in 3 months, I'll ask.
I doubt they will tell you, and besides they probably don't have the senior techs doing the oil services anyway. But does $30/hr sound like good money for a mechanic? Now picture the oil change paying .1 or .2 hrs depending on where a tech works. That means the tech makes between $3.00 - $6.00 for the oil change service. (.2 hrs is 12 minutes BTW, so if it takes longer than that he/she is working for free for the extra time)
There is a dealer that has a window in the waiting room that lets you watch the techs. When I had my cooling system serviced, the tech would work on it a while and then leave for a while. During the auto flush, he left again . Any idea where he went?
He likely had at least two repairs going at the same time. So he could have been doing anything related to the second repair which could easily include spending time locating parts. Techs have to work like that, doubling and even tripling up in order to be as productive as they possibly can.
BTW, guys like Kevin, me (and many others) do more than our own share to get to as many shops/techs as we can to know about changes and anything else that can help them do the best they can for the consumers. It does get frustrating to see consumer oriented organizations not only fail to keep pace with information and technology but even promote inaccurate information which can cause consumers to be at odds with shops that are doing their jobs correctly.
They go from editorials to forums with the comments and the comments just keep coming and are filled with tons of bad perceptions and information. I have posted material to each of those, but you wouldn't know it unless you searched through all of the comments.
Some of the worst damage for consumers comes from the fact that many of the false perceptions are so widely held that the "voting" gives the wrong (bad) information even more clout. Edmunds editorial team put bad information up, and that is countered correctly by the legislation Kevin wrote about, it should be up to those same writers to fix it.
Good post. If you don't like what you're reading, go somewhere else. Or, do your own P.R work.
Not only that, its targeted for cars that don't require products that meet the same specifications that many of the newer cars do. Business guru's want to call such practices "loss leaders", but it's more accurate to call the managers who use such tactics "lost leaders."
Actually, the $29 oil changes are targeted at whoever owns a Honda. Coupon does not specify models, year of auto, or oil used. Just oil, filter and tire rotation.
I'm sure the dealership would have preferred 10 year old Civic, needing a lot of repair work, roll in for an oil change. Target missed in my case. Sure they end up making a lot of money on these "loss leaders".
You have been provided the necessary references, can't you see for yourself the mistakes that are being made as much of that "advice/opinion" is shared?
That's not a mistake to me and a good cost/benefit argument can be made for doing exactly that.
Make that guess reflect the totally random nature of the practice where the result is anywhere from a complete failure with no change in the vehicles operation, to a 50% chance that it will work, to a one out of five that it will work or not, to a one out of ten either way and the only thing you know for sure is that you cannot achieve a repeatable result with it.
I had a DIY'er call me up this morning. He has a Honda that is setting a P0134 and he's pretty sure its the computer that is to blame. (That's a $1000 bill BTW). If you don't have good practice/experience at testing and proving if that's the case then the only thing you can do (like him) is guess.
It's entirely possible the PCM is in fact bad, and its also likely that the aftermarket A/F sensor he is using is what is really bad. Guess all you want, you have a 50/50 chance of being correct. (well maybe that should be 33/33/33 because you could still guess both parts) The right routine is to test and prove what is going on.
One could argue (and I'm beating you to the punch here, Doc) that just making mistakes even of NO consequence will eventually lead to mistakes of consequence---interesting argument, but speculative.
I make mistakes now and again, say in the Answer department, but they don't really matter, because i'm careful what I say. If I tell someone that the fuse box is on the left side of the IP, but on that model it's on the right side, well either the owner comes back to tell me he can't find it, or, fishing around under there, he finds it anyway. If he comes back I correct the error. Any consequence? Minor--a bit of inconvenience.
I often tell people---"don't wax your car very often---any rubbing of any kind is abrasive". Is that even a mistake or is it just an opinion as good as any other?
If someone puts in 5W20 instead of 0w-20 and is afraid to drive the car 100 miles to the hospital before they can get the oil changed again, I tell them no problem, that's okay. In theory I have make a "mistake", but have I really?
You cannot hold an opinion to the same exacting standard as the hands-on work of a technician. People don't come here for expert diagnosis of their Porsche. They come here to get some ideas--not to SOLVE the problem but to figure out HOW to solve the problem.
When someone tells YOU their car doesn't start, you recommend hooking up Scanner ZB--152 costing $20,000 bucks, but I can only give them a general diagnostic tree for testing things in their driveway. I don't dare tell them to bypass relay X by connecting the green wire to the red one!
I probably would gladly risk swapping out a $20 part on my own, without any shop-performed diagnostics, if there's a reasonable chance of success. OTOH, I doubt I'd swap out a $1000 part, even it I had a 75% chance of success, if the total cost to have a shop diagnose and confirm the part failure+repair was $1400-1500.
Everyone has a different pain threshold.
That's how the world works...
Even doc can't be SURE...CERTAIN..that his diagnosis is correct when he installs a part. He is just "more certain" than we are.
The old adage still rings true... Usually, the validity/reliability of information one gets is directly proportional to the amount paid for said information.
You usually get what you pay for, and since its free in forums/blogs/etc. on the Interweb, well, ... You get the idea.
In a perfect world, everyone would have enough resources to properly maintain everything they own. Unfortunately, for many, it comes down to paying a shop for a needed repair/analysis .vs. putting food on the table or clothes on the kids. We aren't all as economically fortunate as Bill Gates...
And, while some may make the argument that owners performing their own service and repairs takes work away from service personnel (which is true), it quite often makes the difference between a family missing a few meals and being able to get to work.
I think they got the idea from us.
"Wow. I used to dread taking my car to get fixed, but when I went to Strike the Tent Autowerks, Hans and Dieter were great. I got a good price and my car runs like new. They didn't rip me off like some shops do. I never thought repair shops could be so honest. I plan to go back there you can bet on that! "
The routine to diagnose that problem starts with basic checks such as fuses etc, and then pull schematics which checking for TSB's. (There are no TSB's for this failure)
The choice the person doing the diagnostics now has to make is to essentially pick one of the circuits/systems that isn't working and diagnose it. The class is written exactly as the vehicle was analyzed, I diagnosed the easiest circuit first, the rear window washer system. The switch on the column provides a ground connection for the pump while the body computer provides the power. Diagnostics proved that the switch worked, the pump was bad, but there wasn't any power coming from the body computer to run the pump.
All of the objections to testing and being sure would result in someone replacing the pump, which the car does need and then because there isn't power coming from the body computer they would replace that too, the problem is the car doesn't need that. The habit of guessing might of had someone replace the multi-function switch on the column before or after the body computer that wouldn't have fixed the car either.
So what should someone do? The routine that comes up with the correct solution before starting to replace any parts is to diagnose one of the other two failures too, and in the class is exactly what I did and I chose the wiper motor. That failure turned out to be a loss of communication between the body computer and the rear door module because of a broken wire where the door hinges. Once communication was restored the body computer then also provided power to the rear washer pump circuit. The whole repair cost less than either the door module or the body computer (or the multi function switch). The best part of this one was a scan tool wasn't any help because Toyota didn't design the system to make use of serial data functions and no other self diagnostic functions like the ability to set trouble codes even for a flash retrieval.
Usually, if the majority of reviews are good, that's what I look for. I've learned that some people just love to complain.
Restaurants can have a bad day too and a business is only as good as it's worst employee.
Funny you would mention Hans and Dieter. I knew of a shop manned by Klaus and Dieter. To say these guys had strong opinions would be a gross understatement. They fit the stereotype associated with their names to a "T".
They would give their customers stern lectures. They only worked on Mercedes and if a customer ever questioned their work or opinions, they would be thrown out.
Still, they did good work and always had a backlog of work.
They hand lapped valves and refused to use air ratchets.
Grouches can be very talented people (...ahem...). So usually when I run into a cranky shop owner I try to figure out how to get around that and develop some kind of relationship with him.
Once you know their hot buttons and can work around those, you can often get very good service out of brilliant cranks.
I don't think I'd buckle under with quite the submissiveness of Seinfeld trying to please the "Soup [non-permissible content removed]" however.
The customer was sent by another shop. The customer reports that the check engine light is on and off and the computer had a code P0727 for missing engine speed signal. The customer also reports that the car randomly cranks but won't start, however leaving it sit with the key in the on position seems to get the car to fire up.
Use whatever resource that you can and make your best guess. My approach will fix it right the first time no exceptions, can you say the same about yours?
In short, I have several issues to address on the car. It has been sitting for months because I had other matters to attend to. It has a coolant leak and a stalling problem (won't idle and stumbles and sometimes stalls when first giving it fuel).
Decided to address the leak first, as it has gotten pretty bad and it makes it tough to diagnose a running issue when you can't run it long and you are dumping poison on the ground. Unfortunately, as I discovered, this has one of the worst water pump locations of any car I've worked on. To remove the water pump, you have to remove the fan, shroud, fan pulley, water pulley, and steering pulley. Then move steering pump aside and remove the tensioner (might as well replace tensioner pulley and shock while here).
Little did I know that the water pump has been "updated" and now will no longer work with the stock hard heater line that wraps around the front of the engine precariously close to the spinning parts. I first tried to modify the old line, and it was ok at first... until I tried to put the pulley back on. It didn't clear. I tried heating and bending, but i just couldn't get the right angle with the small amount of material. So I ordered the "updated" pipe and waited. That arrived this past week and I was back out there again. This new pipe and pump combination, however, does not clear the belt. WTH?! :mad:
Back to heating and bending, but with the new pipe. Since it already cleared the pulley, it was just a matter of reforming it to clear the belt. Well, in the end, its ugly, but it works. At least I thought it did. For some reason, it does not sit in the pump quite right and resulted in a slow leak. So I drained it below that line, dried it out, applied a second o-ring and some sealant on the outside edge. Waited overnight, refilled and ran it, and it seems to be holding. I can only think that the updated pipe I received is not right since it didn't clear and didn't fit the pump quite right. But I didn't want to wait and be disappointed and annoyed again, so I did what I had to. Is it a hack job? Sure. Do I care? No. As long as it works.
While I had it running and got it up to temp, I started testing things for the stalling issue. Checked all the vacuum hoses I could find. Found one that had broken and been patched with tape. I replaced the tape patch with a piece of rubber hose. No change. I had previously adjust the mixture using a duty cycle meter, as is supposedly the correct way to do it, so I knew that was right. So I then went for the other usual culprits.
Tested the OVP first and I THINK it is ok. I'm not completely sure because I was using a much more sensitive voltmeter than I have seen people online use in this situation. When you apply power and ground to 2 of the pins, the others should be dead. This wasn't quite the case for me, though. Using a standard 20v DC setting, yes, they were dead. But using my other meter, which shows mv, I was, in fact, getting a reading of around 200 mv on the one pin that receives juice when the key is turned on. Does this mean anything? I have NO idea.
So I went for the oxygen sensor next. There is a connection for this under the passenger side carpet, so its very easy to get to. I also got weird readings from this. It cycles quickly, indicating it is OK in that regard. But the readings averaged on the low side. Where it is supposed to register from .2 to .8 and maybe cycle from .1 to .9 in total, mine is swinging from .05xx to .6xx. So it seems to be reading lean overall. Now, does that mean a bad sensor or another problem upstream? Well, at less than $30, I decided to go ahead and order an O2 sensor. I figure I can replace it and see what the readings are. At $30, it is worth the shot to me to avoid spending a couple of hours looking for another problem that may or may not exist.
I know Doc doesn't like my methods, but it is a story from an amateur and it is my own car. Of course, it would be totally different if I NEEDED the car.
Hopefully I'll get it running right with no leaks, fix the odometer that seems to have stopped turning again, and maybe even take a look at that nonfunctioning cruise control. I think that's all it needs for now.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Is my solution a guarantee? No. But its like my oxygen sensor story above. It is worth the gamble. And that's what it is. A gamble. I'm betting $85 against more of my time and effort that the first and easiest solution is the right one. Frankly, the odds are in my favor.
But I think you have also left out crucial information for us that you have at your disposal. The car was sent by another shop. What have they done already to try to fix it?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
These cars are notorious for cruise problems after 20 or so years. Often the amplifier has failed.
Doc, IMO, you're missing the point here.
I don't think anyone has suggested the vehicle owner absolutely abstain from repair shops altogether. As I've understood the "back and forth", it's been more of what Qbrozen's tactics have been, even if the tactics don't always work out in the owner's favor. Give me his vehicle/specific problems and my knowledge/comfort levels, and I would react differently, but that doesn't make either of us right OR wrong. Change the circumstances just a little, and we might be acting just the opposite of each other today.
Again, it's all about the risk/reward ratios, and just how much someone is willing to risk dollar-wise to save an even larger payout.
Personally, I wouldn't know where to start on this particular problem, so for me, I'd be headed off to the repair shop. Given a different issue, I might feel comfortable rolling the dice and spending a few bucks, if I thought I had a reasonable chance at success.
Having said that...
Given your level of knowledge and expertise, coupled with the number of existing vehicles and their complexity, and I don't think you need to spend much time worrying about when your next repair job is going to show up at your door anytime soon.
Previous owner told me he had the fuel distributor rebuilt, so I'm pretty much proceeding as if that's not a problem. Time will tell if that's a mistake.
It seems to be a timing issue. If I ease on the throttle very gently and just get it past 1k rpms, it will run great and strong and freely. Its just that idle to 1k that's a problem. If you open the throttle too quick, it chokes and dies. It is also very easy to start cold but very very hard to start after it is warm and stalls. Kind of like it is flooded. So it kind of adds up with the lean conditions and its adding too much fuel. Stomp on the gas, it adds even more fuel without enough air and dies. I dunno. Just my working theory at the moment. Could, of course, just as easily be the opposite problem. It is times like these when I curse these middle years where everything got more complicated but before standardized diagnostics ports.
And, yes, I'm sure the cruise is that common problem, which I supposedly might be able to fix with some creative soldering. Just haven't gotten there yet.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I had a car with the same engine as yours (M103). It also had an issue where it would run poorly, and would throw CELs and other idiot lights now and then. It also preferred light throttle esp when cold, it would stumble and sputter with more throttle, almost like a limp home mode of sorts. A relay had failed - I forget what it was called (as this was years ago) but I think it was near the firewall. Under $100 even from the dealer, easy DIY plug in replacement. And that never seemed to completely cure it...I think the car hated getting too hot too, but I might be confusing it with the fintail, which also doesn't like to start right up when hot.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S