I think with the Prius, the problem is simply that the market is becoming saturated. It's still a popular car, but a bit past its peak.
I'm starting to see an occasional Malibu around these parts. As for the Lincoln Mark Z, is the new one even officially available yet? My buddy with the '78 Mark V likes them. Doesn't really do anything for me, though. Not bad in black, but then most cars do look good in black. At least, until about five minutes after you've finished washing and waxing them! :P
Shame about your Dad's Impreza. What does he hate about it?
Unfortunately, hard plastics are the norm in many classes these days. At the DC auto show, I remember being disappointed in how much hard plastic there was in the Acuras these days, and thinking that's one thing that keeps them from being viewed in the same light as Lexus.
Alas, then we went to the Lexus display, and I was disappointed to find them a lot more plasticky than you'd expect at this price point.
One thing I'll give them credit for though...in general, they are making the hard plastics look a bit more tasteful these days, even with cheaper cars. The interior of my 2012 Ram is mostly hard plastic, except for the armrests and inserts on the door panels. I don't think anything at all on the dash is soft to the touch. But, at its price point, I think it's still fairly presentable.
Altima is selling on price and fuel economy (38mpg makes headlines).
Priced vs. the Accord, they're a couple grand cheaper, street price.
Malibu will offer similar value, but I think Altima will be compared more with Camry/Accord, and it's the cheapest of the 3. Also, CR fuel economy beat even the Eco model of the Chevy.
Last month it outsold the Camry, though the totals include the previous gen Altima coupe.
I think they are trying to save cost (obviously) but also weight. To get the great fuel economy numbers, notice new models come out that weigh 2-300 lbs less than their predecessors.
Something that irks me about Lexus materials is the base single stitched leather - it looks and feels pretty basic, really no better than a pleather IMO.
Cars are usually the 2nd most expensive purchase a person makes in their lifetime, way too important for people to place much value in "going with the mainstream, or going with the flow."
They might do that for unimportant decisions, but with cars, people will go with what is safe, reliable, and cost effective. I believe the Malibu and Dart fail in cost effectiveness, they should both be 10K cheaper.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Well I'll be honest I have yet to see one in person ( I think they were later to roll out up here) so the back seat may indeed be that bad, but I do still think that people who do comparision shopping will see the MPG estimates and rule the car out. BTW I agree that cars seem to have too much power these days, I mean people are complaining about cars accelerating to 60 in 6 sec as being too slow, give me a break. Not that there isn't a place for that but in the real world it is very rare that that is really needed. Of course the manufactures got lazy as well, they just tacked new safety features on and did nothing about the weight gain that accompanied them, they seem to just be starting to react, part of the reason for the big hp numbers is the weight of the cars.
Absolutely has to do with weight. 200 HP is fine when your 3,000 pounds, but get close to 4,000 pounds and most people would say 200 HP is underpowered.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Only in the way that people are buying lots of them when really it is about the least desirable mid sized car on the market at this point ( well above the Chrysler twins and probably the Malibu in its present state). Please note I never actually compared the cars themselves, just trying to say people will overlook things if the car meets their minimum requirements, I think the current Malibu's sales drop is because it has two big hits, the fuel economy and the back seat, I think of the fuel economy was competitive they would at least have a chance to get more people into the dealership, the back seat might be a deal breaker then, but there would probably still be more people buying it. BTW I know you hate all American branded cars, but you really need to tone to down a bit, yes your Neon was garbage we get it, and I can understand why you will never buy another Chrysler because of it, but you seem to spread that hate to the other brands and follow up with misinformation about them as well.
Nowadays maybe, but not in the not too distant past, it is really only since about 2007 that 200 hp is no longer considered acceptable for a midsized car. Does a family sedan really need to accelerate to 60 in under 6 seconds like the v6 Camry? The four cyl versions all seem to be around 7-8 sec that was V6 performance not that long ago, I think it is a bit out of hand, and if the power expectations were more realistic then the fuel economy could be even better, but the market demands what it does so for the moment we are where we are.
and I can understand why you will never buy another Chrysler because of it, but you seem to spread that hate to the other brands and follow up with misinformation about them as well.
No misinformation from me, I just keep it real!
I have to keep the PRO GM forces in check. All of the Big 3 are equally guilty of my Chrysler experience, because they all had and still have models of similarly terrible quality.
Until they stop getting black dots and scores under 50 in CR, I'll continue to KEEP IT REAL!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Well, more vastly more people select the 4 cylinder versions over the V6's in the midsize market, so maybe they are not all power hungry. However, my friend mentioned he got the 4 cylinder because of his finances, but he really wanted the V6.
Also, if you drive like a slug, you might be able to get better than the EPA numbers.
Lastly, if you go around town trying to match the published 0-60 times in magazines, then you won't get the EPA mileage.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
all of the Big 3 are equally guilty of my Chrysler experience, because they all had and still have models of similarly terrible quality.
Sorry but not in my experience. I have owned and driven many GM, Ford and one or two Chrysler vehicles personally and through business over the last several years.(probably around 15 cars, trucks and vans) and all without exception were pretty reliable. Probably just lucky.
Oh and I have a CR car issue from 2012 and I see quite a few black dots in the Audi section....
Because of the bad rap on domestic brand dependability rampant on this forum, I'm sorry kids but I must once again bring up JD Power's latest 2013 dependability study of 2010 model year cars and the relative number of problems per vehicle.
Yes Chrysler lags and Ford is about average. Buick > Honda and Acura. Chevy > Audi, Subaru, Nissan Infinity and VW.
But the take away is ALL vehicles have been and are becoming more reliable year by year, and the differences between brands is lessening to a point where it should almost be a non-issue.
I do apologize for the snarkiness of my previous comment, must be more tired than I thought. I think that you will find that The domestics have better scores than you think, and the black dots are apparently relative, all cars are so much better nowadays that the dots are almost ,earning less. BTW I am not pro domestic, I have actually only owned one domestic out of about 15 cars, it was okay, but was as Andre169 said a GM car that ran badly longer, it was a 99 GrandAm with the Quad 4 ( I forget what they were calling it at aghast point). It worked fine as long as I kept putting oil in it. It didn't have anything fancy electric so none of that broke, it was good for what it was, but wasn't anything special. Besides that car I have owned European and Japanese, they have all had some problems, but have all been basically reliable, the European cars were generally more solid, and fun, the Japanese cars reliable, and because I have generally picked ones in the sportier side fun as wel ( the most fun car I have had was a Subaru 3 door coupe from 86, it only had about 98 hp but it could corner extremely well, and was light and just fun to drive in general). Anyway everyone has their own experiences to base their decisions on, you had a bad Chrysler and a god Audi, other people have had experiences with Audi closer to your experience with the neon so their opinions of Audi are like yours of Chrysler... just don't expect everyone to agree with you is all. Hope you continue to enjoy trouble free motoring with your Audi, and I am sure if you don't we will hear about it ( and at least it will still be more enjoyable to drive even if it does start having more issues).
>Oh and I have a CR car issue from 2012 and I see quite a few black dots in the Audi section....
Those VW family members generally has some problems through the years.
Still recall our friend's Jetta with windows falling down and a perpetual service engine light. Worse was that the dealer really didn't know how to fix things.
Still recall our friend's Jetta with windows falling down and a perpetual service engine light. Worse was that the dealer really didn't know how to fix things.
VW pretty much gave up reliablity when they went from air cooled to water cooled in the '70's. They've almost always had cars that tested well (especially in the late '90s/early '00s), but take very spotty reliablity with a dealer network that generally has poor service at high prices, and you have a problem.
I think that in the future a 1-3 year old 2013 Malibu will be a very attractive buy for the value oriented, as will a 2013 Dart, Avenger or Chrysler 200. These are all solid, below-best-in-class cars, with below average demand.
I rented a 4-cylinder Avenger for three days last week, and thought it was okay. EPA fuel economy is on the low side, so I wouldn't consider a new one if I were in the market for such a car. But, a highly depreciated 2-3 year old used one could be a great value.
But the take away is ALL vehicles have been and are becoming more reliable year by year, and the differences between brands is lessening to a point where it should almost be a non-issue.
Again, some brands have reliability history vastly different over MANY decades. Reason being bankruptcy from past failures to do what is FINALLY being done at the domestics. Chrysler still has a decade to go...
>but take very spotty reliablity with a dealer network that generally has poor service at high prices
No way I'd even look at VW/Audi family because of friend's experience. He tried having car working at a closer dealer who told hiim to go to the other dealer--they wouldn't work on it.
My '57 DeSoto Firedome weighs about 4,000 lb, and probably has about 200 hp net (it's 270 gross). I found an old road test that put 0-60 in about 9.7 seconds.
I'd be curious to see how a 4,000 lb car with 200 hp would perform nowadays, just to see how cars have (or have not) improved over the past 57 years.
One thing that's changed though, is perspective. In 1957, the DeSoto Firedome and Fireflites were about the quickest cars in their class. Quick enough that Consumer Reports whined about them being overpowered and "too" fast!
But nowadays, a two ton car with only 200 hp would probably be be about the worst in its class, and get nothing but complaints about being too slow.
Well, for one, he previously had an Outback and he feels the Impreza has been decontented - i.e. idiot lights in lieu of real gauges. He also feels the car isn't made as well and I believe he had a recall issue with it and also a warranty issue with the brakes.
My Dad gets screwed every time he buys a car because he has to think of my mother driving it. Therefore, he always gets something smaller and cheaper than he is comfortable with and Mom never ends up driving the car anyway. Dad is 74. I told him to get what he wants because it could be his last car. Grandpop went all out for his last ride - the ultimate loaded 1989 Chevrolet Caprice Classic Brougham LS. Thank God my wife's taste in cars pretty much mirrors mine.
I told him to get what he wants because it could be his last car. Grandpop went all out for his last ride - the ultimate loaded 1989 Chevrolet Caprice Classic Brougham LS.
Yeah, you might as well get what you like. As one of my former coworkers once said, "Life's too short to drive crap!" However, he was referring to my grandmother's '85 LeSabre when he said it! :mad:
Never again will I fall for the VW siren song. You can't do German cheap. Heck, even expensive is hard. I like the new E-Class, but am terrified of potential maintenance and repair costs. BMWs seem fragile and Audis have too much VW DNA.
I had a good friend say the same thing. He had leukemia and beat it. A couple years later, it came back and he bought a new BMW Z4 roadster. He passed a year later.
I'll admit that i really like the new Passat, although I haven't looked at one close up. However, like you, I'm a bit leery of VW's long-term reliability.
My uncle owned a '00 Passat V6 GLX 5 speed until a few months ago when he replaced it with a new Passat. He's as cheap as they come, but he is particular about what he drives. I know he had some issues with his old Passat, but they weren't severe enough to keep him from buying another and he did get nearly 13 years and 150k miles out of it.
Like many, he bought his last domestic over 20 years ago and likely will never buy another.
I'd gladly drive a VW that may have a few problems here or there over most domestic cars that likely could be trouble free, but are often lackluster in many other areas.
But then again, the domestic cars I've owned haven't been cheap to maintain either.
Now that I think about it, I do have a friend who had a 2001.5 Passat that he bought new, and now has a Passat wagon. 2006 I think, and I believe it's called a "4Motion" or something like that? He bought it used a couple years ago when he bought a puppy that was not destined to stay cute and little for long.
I remember the 2001.5 went through a period where it would often refuse to start. It turned out to be some kind of switch, but it took the dealer months to track the problem down. Other than that though, I think it was a pretty good car. I don't think the wagon has given him too many issues, either.
My new car has ~210hp and weighs 4059 lbs per the manufacturer. But, it has 400 lb/ft torque, so is still rated at 6.7 0-60 per MB and a few tenths higher at others.
The new Passat is an NA-only model (I think), unlike the previous car and all those before. Designed for and built in the US, it might be less troublesome than those before. I kind of like it, too.
But the take away is ALL vehicles have been and are becoming more reliable year by year, and the differences between brands is lessening to a point where it should almost be a non-issue.
Non-issue until the repair bill comes to you at 4 figures. Put your money where your mouth is, and offer to pay for extended warranty repairs up to 5 years and 100,000 miles bumper to bumper for everyone that frequents these forums. All it takes is a contract from you stating you will pay for all their repairs if they buy a domestic product. Consideration for that contract won't be much from me; My '03 Honda cost $0.00 to get to 65K miles when I sold it. I see no reason to pay you more then that for this contract.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Audi has clearly distanced themselves when it comes to quality and reliability with VW.... check out the latest CR ratings. Audi is doing quite well and improving. They do have areas of improvement to make, but the effort is there and appreciated.
Even JD, who holds no water with me, shows a distinction that can only be explained by a serious effort from Audi, that VW chose to not follow for other models.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I have a 2008 Jetta, just routine maintenance, no problems. One recall, not an issue, my car was and is fine.
Bought new, 3 miles on the clock. Over 60k now. The dealer seems very good, my salesman called to check up on me recently.
Will I buy another VW? Yes, not the el cheapo ones they are giving us now (new Jetta, Passat), I'll get an Audi if VW keeps downgrading its cars, but after all, it is about sales.
I agree, the domestics are capable of pretty good scores, but they have some "dud" models on the books still, so their score range is strangely wider than I think you'll find with the foreign automakers for the most part.
Also, it seems the newer domestic models suffer from poorer reliability, as if it takes them 10 years to figure out how to make a reliable car, and then by that time it's outdated and no one wants it no matter how reliable it is (see all the new Buicks vs. the older ones).
My Audi's 7th birthday was the other day, and I crossed 98K miles. I'm now past the "goodwill extended warranty of 7 years or 120K miles" on 4 different parts (only 1 of which needed replacing so far), but I suppose you can't blame the manufacturer much for problems after 100K miles or 7 years. Too bad JD doesn't go back 7 years, only 3, so they basically only review brand new cars.
Audi scores better in CR in both points, and reliability by a large margin I would say as compared to Chrysler. The margin grows even wider if you use Honda or Toyota.
Sales in the last decade show a decline at Chrysler, and a rise at VW/Audi, excepting the post bailout #2 resurgence at Chrysler the last couple of years.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I could understand not getting a certain brand of car if you live in a remote rural area and couldn't' legitimately find a good mechanic within 50 miles.
A good mechanic makes a huge difference I think, my A3 is maintained professionally and competently, I'm afraid not all Audi's on the road get the same treatment.
I'll never forget getting quoted "Multi-ATM Fluid" for my dual clutch gearbox that requires "DSG Oil" I suppose oil is a fluid, and fluid could be an oil, but I'm sure there are vast differences. The only reason I went to this other shop was to keep my mechanic's prices honest and "check him." After that incident, any price he asked would have been OK because I want the work done right the first time.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Comments
I'm starting to see an occasional Malibu around these parts. As for the Lincoln Mark Z, is the new one even officially available yet? My buddy with the '78 Mark V likes them. Doesn't really do anything for me, though. Not bad in black, but then most cars do look good in black. At least, until about five minutes after you've finished washing and waxing them! :P
Shame about your Dad's Impreza. What does he hate about it?
Equinox has a very wide spread in pricing. I've seen them scary-close to $40k, but I doubt many are made that way. At that price, they feel cheap.
But...if you get a model under $30k, I'd argue they're just about par for the course. Hard plastics are the norm in that class.
Unfortunately, hard plastics are the norm in many classes these days. At the DC auto show, I remember being disappointed in how much hard plastic there was in the Acuras these days, and thinking that's one thing that keeps them from being viewed in the same light as Lexus.
Alas, then we went to the Lexus display, and I was disappointed to find them a lot more plasticky than you'd expect at this price point.
One thing I'll give them credit for though...in general, they are making the hard plastics look a bit more tasteful these days, even with cheaper cars. The interior of my 2012 Ram is mostly hard plastic, except for the armrests and inserts on the door panels. I don't think anything at all on the dash is soft to the touch. But, at its price point, I think it's still fairly presentable.
Priced vs. the Accord, they're a couple grand cheaper, street price.
Malibu will offer similar value, but I think Altima will be compared more with Camry/Accord, and it's the cheapest of the 3. Also, CR fuel economy beat even the Eco model of the Chevy.
Last month it outsold the Camry, though the totals include the previous gen Altima coupe.
Something that irks me about Lexus materials is the base single stitched leather - it looks and feels pretty basic, really no better than a pleather IMO.
Of course Nissan sold about that many Altimas last month.
Are you really comparing the Malibu to the Camry? That's like comparing Dan Quayle to Jack Kennedy.
Seriously, the Camry is a bastion for reliability, while GM is a symbol of mediocrity leading to bankruptcy and massive bailouts.
They might do that for unimportant decisions, but with cars, people will go with what is safe, reliable, and cost effective. I believe the Malibu and Dart fail in cost effectiveness, they should both be 10K cheaper.
No misinformation from me, I just keep it real!
I have to keep the PRO GM forces in check. All of the Big 3 are equally guilty of my Chrysler experience, because they all had and still have models of similarly terrible quality.
Until they stop getting black dots and scores under 50 in CR, I'll continue to KEEP IT REAL!
Also, if you drive like a slug, you might be able to get better than the EPA numbers.
Lastly, if you go around town trying to match the published 0-60 times in magazines, then you won't get the EPA mileage.
Pass me some of that stuff, will ya?
Sorry but not in my experience. I have owned and driven many GM, Ford and one or two Chrysler vehicles personally and through business over the last several years.(probably around 15 cars, trucks and vans) and all without exception were pretty reliable. Probably just lucky.
Oh and I have a CR car issue from 2012 and I see quite a few black dots in the Audi section....
Yes Chrysler lags and Ford is about average. Buick > Honda and Acura.
Chevy > Audi, Subaru, Nissan Infinity and VW.
But the take away is ALL vehicles have been and are becoming more reliable year by year, and the differences between brands is lessening to a point where it should almost be a non-issue.
I think that you will find that The domestics have better scores than you think, and the black dots are apparently relative, all cars are so much better nowadays that the dots are almost ,earning less.
BTW I am not pro domestic, I have actually only owned one domestic out of about 15 cars, it was okay, but was as Andre169 said a GM car that ran badly longer, it was a 99 GrandAm with the Quad 4 ( I forget what they were calling it at aghast point). It worked fine as long as I kept putting oil in it. It didn't have anything fancy electric so none of that broke, it was good for what it was, but wasn't anything special. Besides that car I have owned European and Japanese, they have all had some problems, but have all been basically reliable, the European cars were generally more solid, and fun, the Japanese cars reliable, and because I have generally picked ones in the sportier side fun as wel ( the most fun car I have had was a Subaru 3 door coupe from 86, it only had about 98 hp but it could corner extremely well, and was light and just fun to drive in general). Anyway everyone has their own experiences to base their decisions on, you had a bad Chrysler and a god Audi, other people have had experiences with Audi closer to your experience with the neon so their opinions of Audi are like yours of Chrysler... just don't expect everyone to agree with you is all.
Hope you continue to enjoy trouble free motoring with your Audi, and I am sure if you don't we will hear about it ( and at least it will still be more enjoyable to drive even if it does start having more issues).
Those VW family members generally has some problems through the years.
Still recall our friend's Jetta with windows falling down and a perpetual service engine light. Worse was that the dealer really didn't know how to fix things.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
VW pretty much gave up reliablity when they went from air cooled to water cooled in the '70's. They've almost always had cars that tested well (especially in the late '90s/early '00s), but take very spotty reliablity with a dealer network that generally has poor service at high prices, and you have a problem.
Again, some brands have reliability history vastly different over MANY decades. Reason being bankruptcy from past failures to do what is FINALLY being done at the domestics. Chrysler still has a decade to go...
Guess then, so should all the other cars in that field that scored less than the Malibu in beloved CR, don't you say?
Not to be confused with the million-car recall of a day earlier.
If this 'laceration' recall has already been posted here, I apologize. I have not seen it.
No way I'd even look at VW/Audi family because of friend's experience. He tried having car working at a closer dealer who told hiim to go to the other dealer--they wouldn't work on it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'd be curious to see how a 4,000 lb car with 200 hp would perform nowadays, just to see how cars have (or have not) improved over the past 57 years.
One thing that's changed though, is perspective. In 1957, the DeSoto Firedome and Fireflites were about the quickest cars in their class. Quick enough that Consumer Reports whined about them being overpowered and "too" fast!
But nowadays, a two ton car with only 200 hp would probably be be about the worst in its class, and get nothing but complaints about being too slow.
My Dad gets screwed every time he buys a car because he has to think of my mother driving it. Therefore, he always gets something smaller and cheaper than he is comfortable with and Mom never ends up driving the car anyway. Dad is 74. I told him to get what he wants because it could be his last car. Grandpop went all out for his last ride - the ultimate loaded 1989 Chevrolet Caprice Classic Brougham LS. Thank God my wife's taste in cars pretty much mirrors mine.
Yeah, you might as well get what you like. As one of my former coworkers once said, "Life's too short to drive crap!" However, he was referring to my grandmother's '85 LeSabre when he said it! :mad:
Like many, he bought his last domestic over 20 years ago and likely will never buy another.
I'd gladly drive a VW that may have a few problems here or there over most domestic cars that likely could be trouble free, but are often lackluster in many other areas.
But then again, the domestic cars I've owned haven't been cheap to maintain either.
I remember the 2001.5 went through a period where it would often refuse to start. It turned out to be some kind of switch, but it took the dealer months to track the problem down. Other than that though, I think it was a pretty good car. I don't think the wagon has given him too many issues, either.
Non-issue until the repair bill comes to you at 4 figures. Put your money where your mouth is, and offer to pay for extended warranty repairs up to 5 years and 100,000 miles bumper to bumper for everyone that frequents these forums. All it takes is a contract from you stating you will pay for all their repairs if they buy a domestic product. Consideration for that contract won't be much from me; My '03 Honda cost $0.00 to get to 65K miles when I sold it. I see no reason to pay you more then that for this contract.
How many thousand under MSRP did you pay for your Malibu again???...???
And that was for a Malibu you consider superior to the current version!
Based on sales, I think the market agrees with my valuation more than GM's.
Even JD, who holds no water with me, shows a distinction that can only be explained by a serious effort from Audi, that VW chose to not follow for other models.
Bought new, 3 miles on the clock. Over 60k now. The dealer seems very good, my salesman called to check up on me recently.
Will I buy another VW? Yes, not the el cheapo ones they are giving us now (new Jetta, Passat), I'll get an Audi if VW keeps downgrading its cars, but after all, it is about sales.
I agree, the domestics are capable of pretty good scores, but they have some "dud" models on the books still, so their score range is strangely wider than I think you'll find with the foreign automakers for the most part.
Also, it seems the newer domestic models suffer from poorer reliability, as if it takes them 10 years to figure out how to make a reliable car, and then by that time it's outdated and no one wants it no matter how reliable it is (see all the new Buicks vs. the older ones).
My Audi's 7th birthday was the other day, and I crossed 98K miles. I'm now past the "goodwill extended warranty of 7 years or 120K miles" on 4 different parts (only 1 of which needed replacing so far), but I suppose you can't blame the manufacturer much for problems after 100K miles or 7 years. Too bad JD doesn't go back 7 years, only 3, so they basically only review brand new cars.
Audi scores better in CR in both points, and reliability by a large margin I would say as compared to Chrysler. The margin grows even wider if you use Honda or Toyota.
Sales in the last decade show a decline at Chrysler, and a rise at VW/Audi, excepting the post bailout #2 resurgence at Chrysler the last couple of years.
A good mechanic makes a huge difference I think, my A3 is maintained professionally and competently, I'm afraid not all Audi's on the road get the same treatment.
I'll never forget getting quoted "Multi-ATM Fluid" for my dual clutch gearbox that requires "DSG Oil" I suppose oil is a fluid, and fluid could be an oil, but I'm sure there are vast differences. The only reason I went to this other shop was to keep my mechanic's prices honest and "check him." After that incident, any price he asked would have been OK because I want the work done right the first time.