By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
Personally, I think the UAW could have built cars for free and the end result would have been more or less the same---perhaps occurring more slowly that's all.
A couple of blurbs:
"The success of the Fusion and C-Max and the redesigned Ford Escape sport utility have helped lift Ford's share of retail sales up by nearly 2 percentage points on the East and West coasts compared with five years ago, according to data supplied by R.L. Polk & Co.
Ford's share gains began about five years ago when the Dearborn, Mich., auto maker began releasing new cars with more fuel efficient engines, European-derived styling and mobile-phone-based entertainment systems. "Ford's success on the coasts is real, undeniable and likely sustainable," said Tom Libby, a senior analyst with Polk."
I'm sure that most of what you say is true. But also, Detroit was largely dependent upon one industry - the auto industry. That creates jobs and a tax base. The D3 were all based in Michigan. And the D3 all went downhill and are even today moving much more manufacturing out of this country (and the Detroit area), while the transplant automakers are ADDING lots of workers in this country and making many more vehicles with ever higher domestic content. Pretty much the opposite of what is happening at the D3.
So you have to ask what is the difference between the D3 and the transplants - same country, same laws, same (Federal) taxes. Heck, 2 of the D3 even got huge cash infusions from the Feds. My theory is that the difference is the entitlement mentality of the UAW, spawned in the Detroit auto industry, that created a business climate that put a huge financial boat anchor around the ONE INDUSTRY that was primary in the Detroit area. And so when that industry went south (literally and figuratively), so did Detroit. And a heavy union mentality from the auto industry spills over into other unions, like public service unions. Why work hard when you have gold plated salaries and benefits and the protection of the union that makes it so hard to fire you unless you commit crimes at work or something similarly heinous?
Certainly a big contribution to the problem, even though I'm sure the items you mentioned were also big in Detroit's demise.
Now, they get bailed out as well, right?
The city of Detroit filed for Chapter 9 bankruptcy protection in federal court Thursday, laying the groundwork for a historic effort to bail out a city that is sinking under billions of dollars in debt and decades of mismanagement, population flight and loss of tax revenue.
The bankruptcy filing makes Detroit the largest city in U.S. history to do so.
Not all UAW/Unions but they played a huge role in the story of both the City and Detroit Auto Failures.
So people build Walmart's sales of cheap foreign goods. In some cases, equal in quality to that from the local stores (the USA manufacturers). What happens to the local businesses. They shrivel and die. All kinds. From the local nursery's retail sales one mile from the Walmart to the grocery store in the old town.
Is Walmart one of those perfect foreign car companies?
Walmart paid less than UAW wages and benefits. So the economy of the small town drops due to lower incomes. So in parallel, the US buyers showed those USA companies (and they did/do have their faults, but some do Honda and toyota), while at the same time shooting themselves in the foot.
So now we have protests against Walmart in some areas and some locals try to keep their stores out. Can we imagine DC refusing to allow a foreign manufacturer to have a store in DC? I see the trend parallel to the Walmart Story. Would Chicago refuse to have the foreign car stores there? They sure resist Walmart.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Sorry, I see andre actually posted that first, but correctly posted that the Honda model was the CRX, not the Civic per se.
I think the Aztek is ugly. How could one not? But I simply can't see how someone in my age group could think the Aztek is ugly and the Cube is sharp. One can like one car company and hate another, but I simply have to call BS on someone saying the Aztek is ugly but the Cube isn't. It's an oh-so-classic example of 'if a foreign maker does it, it's fine as is'--the old 'free pass' syndrome.
The Cube, xB, Soul and the Element all embraced the box shape and they work for me. Work backward in that list if you want to rank by looks.
About the best iteration of a box in recent years were the suppository Dodge minivans. Even so, I still like the originals about the best.
I think, personally, that BMW (-18%) and Mercedes (-7%) are very over-priced for what they're offering. Add in the dramatically high prices for repairs, and, well, ...
Volkswagen (-8%) is going in the wrong direction for someone who wants to become number one in the world. Unless they plan to abandon the US market, and concentrate exclusively on China and other emerging markets?
Nissan (+9%), Toyata (+5%), and Honda (+3%) are all trending upwards, not surprisingly. I was just reading an article about the top 10 cars for retained value over a 5 year period, and Honda had 2 cars in that mix, the Civic and the CRV.
My only question after looking at your graphic: What's up with Ford?
Add to that the flight of whites and middle class blacks from Detroit, immense political corruption, and the Great Recession of 2009, and there it is.
Something else the big 2.5 did wrong - too much idiotic middle manager surplus overhead, in many cases the exact people who signed off on and tolerated union abuses for so long - as they lined their own pockets with undeserved rewards while pretending to work, just like the line workers they look down upon.
Traditionally, the 3-series models have been BMW's highest volume vehicles.
Sales typically drop in the summer. It's hot, people are on vacation, current models in short supply, new models due in August - September.
Like Steve said, BMW has become overpriced. Ford talks quality and reliability and is building to tighter tolerances, but if you look at data such as on the new Explorer and listen to owners, it appears the talk doesn't match the reality...which leads right into Toyota - buyers know it's not likely to be a repair headache and for many that trumps style and buff magazine articles.
Interesting thoughts.
I don't see the comparison between Walmart and foreign car companies as all that close, however. First of all, the foreign car companies generally sell at price points that are very similar to the D3 - unlike the reason Walmart "took over" so much local business. And there is a lot of foreign manufacture in the US, and US content. In fact, the foreign companies' domestic content is trending up while the D3 domestic content is often trending down. Walmart, by comparison, sells the vast majority of its content as foreign-produced.
I guess what I'm saying is that while mom and pop's store might have a pretty good argument about Walmart, I see the D3 arguments against the foreign makes as being much less legitimate. The D3 mostly did this to themselves, with the joint incompetence of management and the Union. They're improving greatly and that's a very good thing.
First, I don't think we can call BS on anybody's perception of style or art. That's a really individual thing.
For me, there's what I'd call "cute-ugly", which can be sort of endearing, and then there's "ugly-ugly" which is not appealing in any way, shape, or form. for me, the Cube is "cute-ugly" and the Aztec is "ugly-ugly". And it seems that most of the market agrees with that point of view.
Well a culture can permeate an area. Some would lump all of China into a similar pot.
I haven't seen any credible analysis which mimics that.
Agreed, that's why these are opinions.
Many public sector unions had huge benefits long before the UAW got out of hand.
Yes, but once the UAW got out of hand (together with incompetent D3 management), the auto industry in Detroit went south, it was the biggest business in the area, there goes the tax base and the tax receipts, and you are pushing the city into the dumper. Add the corruption, etc. and there you go. But the UAW greed was certainly a contributory factor in that long chain.
(hehe, I crack myself up sometimes.
btw, that wasn't me saying BMWs have become overpriced. They've always been out of my budget.
Detroit would have been on thin ice even if the UAW failed decades ago. Like you say, the corruption and lack of diversification - it didn't come from a union. Public sector leaders failed as sharply as D3 leaders. Bad management all around, created a toxic environment for all. Blaming one union for the collapse of Detroit or even giving it more airtime than other factors smacks of deception or propaganda.
2. I'd rather hear that GM is delaying the Cruze redesign, to make the next one even better than anyone could possibly anticipate.
3. Hilarious that Obama won an election largely by chanting that Romney said Let Detroit go bankrupt, and that he wouldn't allow that, and now they have in 2013.
P.S. So did GM, so did Chrysler twice.
That alone would be a reason I would strongly prefer a Ford over a GM.
2. I'd rather hear that GM is delaying the Cruze redesign, to make the next one even better than anyone could possibly anticipate.
Hopefully we will be surprised.
P.S. So did GM, so did Chrysler twice.
Some posters seem to imply that the automakers' plight is independent of Detroit's financial plight. I'm not one of them.
I have a feeling that the Mom and Pop's that went out of business did so because they offered no value to their customers, and when they got undercut on prices, the people fled as fast as possible.
Too many people view Mom and POP's through rose-colored glasses. I have a feeling they price gouged people before Wal-Mart came along.
If Walmart was truly out to wipe out the competition, then how come we still have Target, Costco, Best Buy (barely), and others?
you mean like this?
Club Lexus
you mean like this?
Again, while tastes are individual, I'd rate that as pretty decent looking. No comparison IMHO to the ugly-ugly Aztek. I'd also put the Ovals Taurus (circa late 1990's?) in the ugly-ugly category.
I like to name styling themes, am unsure if I will call this "cow catcher" or "Hitler stache" :shades:
It's pretty nice inside though.
Asked how much he paid said just shy of $60K. Wow course he traded his LS430 for a few bucks and ended up with a bill for $45K. Asked him why he didn't buy a LS460 said those are for old people. Funny guy is 65.
Neither is Mr. Akerson!
GM CEO: Auto industry had role in Detroit fiscal slide
Additionallly, the gov't pension plan has a dirty little secret throught the USA:
It may sound arcane, but the stakes for the country run into the trillions of dollars. Depending on which side ultimately wins the argument, every state, city, county and school district may find out that, like Detroit, it has promised more to its retirees than it ever intended or disclosed. That does not mean all those places will declare bankruptcy, but many have more than likely promised their workers more than they can reasonably expect to deliver.
The problem has nothing to do with the usual padding and pay-to-play scandals that can plague pension funds. Rather, it is the possibility that a fundamental error has for decades been ingrained into actuarial standards of practice so that certain calculations are always done incorrectly. Over time, this mistake, if that is what it is, has worked its way into generally accepted accounting principles, been overlooked by outside auditors and even affected state and municipal credit ratings, although the ratings firms have lately been trying to correct for it.
Since the 1990s, the error has been making pensions look cheaper than they truly are, so if a city really has gone beyond its means, no one can see it.
“When the taxpayers find out, they’re going to be absolutely furious,” said Jeremy Gold, an actuary and economist who for years has called on his profession to correct what he calls “the biases embedded in present actuarial principles.” In 2000, well before the current flurry of pension-related municipal bankruptcies, he wrote his doctoral dissertation on how and why conventional pension calculations run afoul of modern economic principles.
Detroit Gap Reveals Industry Dispute on Pension Math
I've seen a similar comment here before, and it always makes me chuckle.
I've been looking extensively at new cars since the late '60's, and far more domestic models have been built outside of Detroit than in or around Detroit.
This isn't something that started in the late '80's or something.
BTW, my friend who subscribes to Automotive News told me that the Cruze was the second-best-selling car of all cars in June, just behind the Camry. I didn't see anything here about that, so thought I'd mention it.
Figured I'd put that in perspective.
Very true - dozens of states have or have had plants.
The former telecommunication executive has assigned a small team to study billionaire industrialist Elon Musk's upstart electric-car maker and how it might threaten the 104-year-old automaker's business, said Steve Girsky, GM's vice chairman.
"He thinks Tesla could be a big disrupter if we're not careful," Girsky said. "History is littered with big companies that ignored innovation that was coming their way because you didn't know where you could be disrupted."
Akerson's distaste for GM's old ways is well-documented.
He joined the company's board as part of the 2009 government-backed bankruptcy and $50 billion bailout. He took over as CEO before GM's initial public offering in 2010, when Ed Whitacre decided he didn't want to remain for a long term.
As a board member, Akerson "said he thought GM was one of the worst companies he'd come across in his entire life," Whitacre wrote in his book "American Turnaround." "And he was not a fan of GM cars -- he made that crystal clear."
Now that's calling a spade a spade! :shades:
Always looking on the bright side.
Apparently the Cruze is improving its sales position as the calendar year progresses. Don't know about those others.
The plants that Detroit closed in other cities, were, for the most part, taken over, sold, rebuilt, re-used, etc. In Detroit, those plants are still bombed-out shells.
When Studebaker closed, 7,000 were thrown out of work in a town of probably 135,000. Some of their buildings were bought and re-used, but many were not and weren't torn down until the last 20 years or so...and that's 50 years after South Bend shut down. Of course, they only had two plants in North America.
My point was only that the Big Three didn't assemble mainly in Detroit--not for decades and decades and decades.
The fact that Akerson has that level of awareness is a good sign IMHO.
And he's right about Tesla being disruptive. Musk is a great guy to have pushing industries around - also like the space launch business.
Well, of the two front rooms, one is about 10x15 feet, and the other was around 13x15, until the staircase was added, which took out some space. As you can imagine, a store that small isn't going to have much variety. And it was pretty much just a dry-goods store. No refrigeration units or freezers. So it wasn't like you could go there and do all of your grocery shopping.
A lot of those Mom and Pop stores were also run as a bit of a hobby, rather than a full-time business that was a sole source of income. For instance, this one was owned by my Grandmother's uncle and aunt. He had a full time job as a carpenter for the US government, and she pretty much stayed home and ran the store. As business tapered off and the store was ultimately closed, it didn't affect them financially. Towards the end, I'd imagine it was more hassle than it was worth, and when it finally closed, felt like a big burden was lifted.
FWIW, right now there are at least four major supermarkets within about a 3 mile radius of my home. There are eight WalMarts within a 20 mile radius. Several Targets, plenty of strip malls, and so on. And, to replace the Mom and Pop store, just about every gas station around has a convenience store in it. Plenty of 7-Elevens as well, and many of them are paired with gas stations.
There actually is one Mom and Pop store left, about 4 miles away. Haven't been in there in probably 20 years or more, but I remember they made good sandwiches. They have a couple gas pumps out in front, and their prices were always competitive with the big guys.
OK, that's the way another poster showed the '13 Malibu review in CR some months back...I jest.
The new Sorrento scored higher than the V6-equipped Equinox and was ever-so-slightly more expensive than the Chevy, but because the Sorrento is new, they could not 'recommend' it yet...not the same thing in their world as 'not recommended'.
A good scoring by the Sorrento, and as I said, the Chevy is still 'recommended'.
Of course, as I've noted before, I still chuckle at how an unchanged vehicle can be an overall black circle one year and an overall red one the next, but we've discussed that ad nauseum already. No one will convince me, and I'll never convince anybody else.
Good showing by the Sorrento.
Just my opinion of course
Now this is the latest edition of ugly to me:
IMO, GM did a great job when they recently updated the Acadia. And the Chevy Traverse facelift was very nice, as well.
I was really impressed by the power it had. And the driver used it for merging in traffic on wet roads in western edge of Detroit's metro.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yeah, I think that's part of what appeals to me with them, too. They seem a bit more rugged and truck-ish looking than the Equinox and SRX
Bankruptcy is the ultimate and finest goal in the USA. What could be better than Bankruptcy, look at how well GM and Chrysler are doing :P :lemon:
Ahead of 35 others, including San Bernardino, Mammoth Lakes, Stockton, Jefferson Co. AL, Harrisburg PA, Central Falls RI and Boise County Idaho (big lawsuit went bad there when they tried to zone out a treatment center, plus that's a sparsely populated place next door to the city of Boise and there's no jobs or industry to speak of). (governing.com)