The Current State of the US Auto Market

berri

I dunno. I'm thinking they should have named it something else if they were going to carry over a fleet only version Impala. At least Ford had the sense to name the old Taurus replacement Fusion. As for the new Impala, I think it is a very nice vehicle and should blow the socks off the current Taurus (particularly if you delete Taurus fleet sales which seem to be climbing). But I'm just not sure that market niche is all that large? Also, I think when a model name gets identifies as a "rental" car, it can be difficult to turn that perception around. The current Taurus started as the Five Hundred for a few years, but when they switched back over to Taurus it still didn't do much.

ateixeira

Yeah, it was just a face-lifted Five Hundred.

andres3

That all this talk about all cars being nearly the same is a bunch of hooey. The domestics are still getting an enormous amount of black dots and are still getting reviews with very low scores.

Honda and Toyota are still getting very high reviews with lots of red dots. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

uplanderguy

Even if that is so, the degree of difference isn't the same as it had been. There's also the nature of 'all over the place' different dots for essentially the same cars, that we've discussed many times here before. I still choose to not financially support a company that is not based in the U.S. Your results may vary.

berri

I think you also have to take into consideration that there still are a fair number of older domestic designs being sold. Generally, the new models are doing much better, particularly after the first year out. I believe you drive an Audi, so this wouldn't apply to you. However, some of the Asians like Toyota don't always have very good seats in them. If a Chevy or Ford closes the quality gap, even if it doesn't beat it, the comfort trade off may be worth it. For example, the Highlander is a great quality vehicle, but the seats not so much. A Traverse, Equinox or Explorer has a much more comfortable seat, especially for long highway drives, and is quieter too. The Explorer has a bad CR right now, but if you dig into it, that appears to mostly be due to it's Microsoft My Ford system. The other two are now on the CR recommend list (remember another matter, the difference between a red dot and a white one is much narrower than say a few years back). Not that long ago a white dot would not put you into a CR recommended vehicle status like today because the statistical significance between them has significantly reduced today.

hpmctorque

I think it's a smart move by Chevy. In addition to some incremental sales for Chevy, every Impala Limited they sell will deprive a competitor of a sale, since fleet sales are zero sum.

berri

Well I hope you're right and from a financial perspective I agree with you. However, from a marketing perspective I don't know if it's such a good idea to have two "Impala's" out at the same time, especially with a new one trying to elevate the brand . Didn't seem to work well a decade back with the new Malibu and the rental Malibu Classic. Maybe they should have labeled the new one a Caprice or something instead???

scwmcan

Then it follows that the ford wind/free star have good longevity too since they were just recalled too ?? ( NOT, but showing the ridiculousness of your statement, not that Hondas don't have good longevity now, just that there is no correlation to longevity and a recall of older models).

circlew

Agreed. Chrysler/Dodge is still at the bottom of the heap.

At lease Customer Service improved for GM. That is saying a lot.

Regards,
OW

imidazol97

>Then it follows that the ford wind/free star have good longevity too since they were just recalled too ??

That sounds like more of the barnyard hoooey a few perpetuate to try to image those foreign makes as totally realiable and perfect: any recall is just someone trying to hurt the image. While the few still try to paint GM/F as total failures, never to be touched again in the caste system.

To wit there are statements like: "Honda and Toyota are still getting very high reviews with lots of red dots. The more things change, the more they stay the same."

Wonder how the auto transmission owners in Hondas with problems, VCM's with oil use, brakes that turn themselves on unexpectly, and CRV AC compressors that fail regularly. Many posts now about Honda's lack of forever replacements (like Craftsman tools), and instead people are being charged what sounds like double what should be the costs for replacement with the same failed-engineering parts.

I noticed a past coworker had switched from his usual toyota to a CRV after our monthly retired group lunch get together last week. People need to actually shop the cars rather than rely on old images and stereotypes perpetuated by GM brand or F haters. I much prefer our friend's Equinox to the CRVs I've been in.

circlew

Wonder how the auto transmission owners in Hondas with problems, VCM's with oil use, brakes that turn themselves on unexpectly, and CRV AC compressors that fail regularly. Many posts now about Honda's lack of forever replacements (like Craftsman tools), and instead people are being charged what sounds like double what should be the costs for replacement with the same failed-engineering parts.

Honda recently extended the warranty for the CR-V A/C to 7yrs/100K miles.

Our CR-V has excellent A/C after 4 years. No worries going forward!

circlew

... that causes damage to the eyes and then the brain!

Seat Belts

hpmctorque

"Didn't seem to work well a decade back with the new Malibu and the rental Malibu Classic."

What evidence is there that the two Malibu strategy didn't work well?

"Maybe they should have labeled the new one a Caprice or something instead???"

I can't imagine that the marketing people didn't consider alternative names, but we'll never know whether they made the right call.

uplanderguy

Didn't I read here that a long warranty is a bad thing? In fact, I heard a long warranty mocked...in a Honda commercial!

imidazol97

>I heard a long warranty mocked...in a Honda commercial!

Honda has turned into a demagogue with all those followers. Sounds like a politician. They've had so many problems that people are happy to ignore. I was reading about cracking in Civic blocks on a forum the other day. The perfect car.

berri

Why is GM still using the old 2.4L 4 banger on some vehicles when they now have a modernized and supposedly improved 2.5L 4 cylinder engine? The 2.4 never had a great reputation and you see a ton of issues with it on blogs like Equinox. It also seems cost inefficient to be producing two similar sized four cylinder power plants. In the case of the Equinox, there are now new versions of the CRV, RAV4 and Escape. Putting a better base engine in it seems like it should make sense in this segment's tough competitive environment. GM is a hard company to figure out. They show good improvement in things like the new Impala, but then continue with dumb moves like this???

ateixeira

Dumbest design ever - you have to remove the front seat belt to open the rear door.

They should be recalled for poor design, period.

tlong

I was reading about cracking in Civic blocks on a forum the other day. The perfect car.

Of course the Hondas and Toyotas are perfect! You've been saying that for many years on these forums. I don't remember anybody else saying that, though.

tlong

They show good improvement in things like the new Impala, but then continue with dumb moves like this???

Probably some dumb union rules about keeping old factories open or something like that.

scwmcan

I agree the op was trying to give the impression of the foreign makes being better than the domestics. Much like the black circles still, as has been stated about the circles, it isn't an absolute measure but based on the average for that model year, the highs and lows are getting very close now and as I recall the difference between below average and above average can in some instances be less than one problem per hundred vehicles now, so really not much difference at all ( as I recall even a few years ago the difference between the top ( Lexus and Toyota at the time) and the bottom ( I belive VW at the time or maybe very close to the bottom for the,) was less than two problems per 100 cars, so it was very close even then. So personally I think you get what you like, yes there is still a chance of getting a lemon ( with any brand) but you are much more likely to get an average to great car, this isn't to say that all the car companies don't need to keep improving, just that they are all getting very close and that there is little to choose when it comes to reliability. I can recall seeing domestic branded car and foreign branded cars in consumer reports with all above average or better scores, and the domestic car not being recommended, I am sure there were reasons given, but they were not to do with the reliability but with the more subjective reasons. BTW I have only had one domestic branded car to date ( had mostly Volvos, a couple of Subarus and a Mazda in the past, currently have a smart and a Matrix) so I am not a domestic"fanboy" I just calls me like I sees them, I had what was supposed to be a horrible GM car a 1999 Pontiac grand am, I had it from about 200,000 km to 330,000km, yes it was worn out bu the end, but the only major problem was my fault as much as the car's ( I let the oil get low, and since I was going to get an oil change the next day I didn't fill it and spun a bearing, you can say that it was because the car used oil, but it was more my fault than anything). Now was the fit of the doors perfect no, but the car held up fine, and still looked pretty good to the day I got rid of it, besides the engine problem that was my fault, I only put tires, a set of brakes and I think an alternator on the car ( the alternator as far as now was original and went at about the 300,000 km mark). I got my money's worth out of the car in any case.

berri

Many of the transplants are using the same vendors here as D3 nowadays. Any car can have an issue. It's the frequency and how they treat you. Recently I had to have the water pump replaced on a 4 year old Camry with just over 30K. Shouldn't have happened, but Toyota and the dealer stood up to it, covered it and even gave me a loaner. I thought that was fair. If it had been D3 some posters would be chanting "junk", but on an import brand it's a statistical anomaly, right?

hpmctorque

I've wondered the same thing regarding the continued use by GM of the 2.4. As an upscale compact, the Verano deserves the 2.5 as its base engine, for example.

circlew

Not from me. The longer the better, afaic.

My brother (who can take a car apart and put it back together in the day) just dumped a '04 JGC for a Kia Sorrento....the warranty was what he was looking for and the value in it's class (between the CR-V and the CX-9) is hard to beat.

circlew

I thought that was fair. If it had been D3 some posters would be chanting "junk", but on an import brand it's a statistical anomaly, right?

wELL, when the water pump, A/C compressor, shock absorber, air bag sensor, MAP sensor fail before 50K miles can a vehicle be designated as "Junk", AFAIC.

uplanderguy

Recently I had to have the water pump replaced on a 4 year old Camry with just over 30K. Shouldn't have happened, but Toyota and the dealer stood up to it, covered it and even gave me a loaner. I thought that was fair. If it had been D3 some posters would be chanting "junk", but on an import brand it's a statistical anomaly, right?

Nothing special, that would be part of your powertrain warranty, correct?

At 60K miles, I had a new thermostat and new five-year coolant done for warranty on my Cobalt. I was ribbed for that here. Frankly, I was happy as now I don't have to pay to replace the special coolant.

I might add, if Honda extended the warranty on A/C compressors, it should be no secret that they have experienced problems with them. Some here had said that those were made up stories.

GM extended the warranty to 110K miles, on the ignition switch of my Cobalt. I think it's a good thing. And hey, it was even built before the bankruptcy.

berri

Circlew, I'd say that vehicle was a plain old Lemon :lemon:

What year and kind of vehicle was it?

uplanderguy

It was his GMC bought new ten years ago. Hard to believe none of that stuff was warrantied.

jpp75

Well in some ways isn't it a statistical anomaly? How many other Camry's do you hear that needed a water pump at 30k? Likewise how many Acadia/Traverse/Enclaves needed power steering pumps at 60k? Perception is reality, my sister's Acadia has been in the shop more than any of my family's other cars combined. It's not bad...but it's not up to par either.

IMO that's GM's downfall, they didn't wow the market. Instead they just tried/hoped to meet the benchmark. Ford is trying to exceed the benchmark, they've succeeded here and there, but time will tell if they really make it.

I'm not minimizing your problem but there has to be some "exception to the rule" logic. I'll grant you GM has come a long way from the junk they rolled out in the 80's and 90's, but it's not like the Japanese manufacturers have suffered a major decline. The playing field has leveled somewhat, it isn't the runaway on quality that it was 20 years ago, but in this market "catching up" isn't going to cut it.

jpp75

Having owned a 2011 JGC I can tell you the warranty is just a selling point. I leased the vehicle so I "didn't care about reliability" but when your new car spends most of it's time being fixed under that warranty it loses its appeal.

From a marketing standpoint I realize that Hyundai/Kia had to do this to regain some trust but a good warranty doesn't equal a good car.

It takes a lot of time to rebuild a reputation, I'll give Hyundai/Kia credit for doing that, but time will tell how it all shakes out. At the end of the day you still get what you pay for, they are econo cars. Not bad at all for what they are, but it's still an econobox.

greg128

GM has come a long way from the junk they rolled out in the 80's and 90's

we had a 1989 Chevy Astro that went 320K miles with very low maintenance/Repair cost. I wouldn't call that junk.

stickguy

my 2005 Odyssey was on it's 3rd PS pump/rack (some combo of the 2, but I think the pump was done each time). Not a good quality indicator.

uplanderguy

I thumbed through the April "Auto Issue" of CR at the drug store today and was honestly a bit surprised at the number of GM models that they had flagged as "Recommended". Sonic, Cruze, Traverse, Enclave, and Camaro are ones that I remember. I think it's interesting, at least, the divergence between reliability ratings and owner satisfaction (or lack of) of some models...one does not guarantee the other.

tlong

we had a 1989 Chevy Astro that went 320K miles with very low maintenance/Repair cost. I wouldn't call that junk.

Honestly, having driven my wife's uncle's Astro, it could never need any service at all. Just on refinement, it was junk to me. Horrible driving position, cramped footwell, horrible steering, bad brakes. Perhaps his was worse than average.

nvbanker

Honestly, having driven my wife's uncle's Astro, it could never need any service at all. Just on refinement, it was junk to me. Horrible driving position, cramped footwell, horrible steering, bad brakes. Perhaps his was worse than average.

Used to run Astros in my work fleet in the 80s, and I agree exactly with you. They were tough as nails, and dependable - but probably the worse design possible. Every knock you gave it above is completely accurate. I used them as cargo vans, which is what they were designed for - then with the Caravans and Aerostars coming, they switched it to a passenger van as an afterthought and offered them too. Still a nightmare design. Only good thing was their size, you could fit 8 passengers into them.

You forgot how inadequate the A/C was. Unless you are from Canada, they were a bread oven.

greg128

was junk to me. Horrible driving position, cramped footwell, horrible steering,

My wife used her Astro as a daily driver, as well as for her business. We later used it for my business. I had also driven it on a few extended trips. I agree about the cramped left foot area, but I found that it always tracked straight, ran great, got decent mileage, hauled a ton, and for a 1989 car had a smoother and quieter ride than some some recent Honda products I have experienced. Sure it was an old design and it didn't handle very well but it performed magnificently for its intended purpose.

tlong

I agree about the cramped left foot area, but I found that it always tracked straight, ran great, got decent mileage, hauled a ton, and for a 1989 car had a smoother and quieter ride than some some recent Honda products I have experienced.

One of my biggest issues that the relationship between steering wheel position and the direction the vehicle was going to go was only somewhat related. That alone made if feel unsafe. Combine with the poor brakes and it was scary. No Honda has ever been like that in my experience - in fact in those areas, Hondas have been among the best.

uplanderguy

I've found that guys who bought Astros, missed them after you couldn't get them anymore. They hauled way more than a FWD Chrysler van--they were a truck, not a car with a van body. I rarely saw Aerostar cargo vans in the numbers I saw Astro vans out there, over a 20-year period.

tlong

I rarely saw Aerostar cargo vans in the numbers I saw Astro vans out there, over a 20-year period.

I can see the value of the Astro for utility purposes. It also seems that around here (CA), I often see Astros with *uh* lower income families who have lots of kids. For that application they are cheap and seat a lot, so makes sense.

berri

I often saw Astro's hogging the left lane...

circlew

All covered under warranty and the extended warranty I purchased after the first few failures before the 3/36 ended. Good thing I went for the extension.

circlew

That's why you leased the JGC....you already knew the risks!

The warranty/extended warranty is why I kept the 2004 Denali since parts failed regularly.

lemko

How about "Biscayne" or "Bel Air?" The Caprice already exists as a police vehicle.

lemko

Those Astros are popular in Japan. They started that whole "boxy" trend with vehicles such as the Nissan Cube and Scion xB.

imidazol97

Friends in TN had an Astrovan Tiara without the moonroof and ladder in this picture.

The AC worked great. We used it to travel to Chatanooga for a couple of days midsummer for a group visit to Lookout Mountain. Waaa Hoooo. Comfortable. Roomy. Rode great. Fair mileage on gas. They had even used it to haul a riding mower they got a great deal on at Lowes here in Ohio while they were visiting home.

They traded it for a bright red Kia Forté Koup with speaker lights that flash with the music.

circlew

“We’ll make money on this car,” the guy from Chevy was saying about the 2014 Impala at its launch this week in San Diego. His thinking may have been wishful. Fully loaded — which is the only way that this vehicle should be ordered — the Impala runs more than $41,000. Even in an era of inflated car prices, that’s a lot of money. Such an outlay can get you a lot of car in this world: A BMW 3-Series, a jacked-out Hyundai Genesis, certain members of the Lexus family, and even Chevy’s vastly technologically superior Volt all run in that range or below. If you want to sell something for 40 grand, it’s going to have to offer more than a 3.6-liter V6 engine, adaptive cruise control, and seats covered with a substance that somewhat vaguely resembles, and might in fact be, actual leather. It’s going to have to be lovely to look at, comfortable to sit in, and fun to drive, or at least some combination thereof. The new Impala, unfortunately, misses the mark.

The Impala was once a stylish marquee name, a glorious tail-finned showpiece of Detroit’s golden age. Those days are as distant as Don Draper sitting alone at the hotel bar. Now it’s just clumsy, expensive department-store jewelry, dated and stale, desperately out of step with the times.

Chevy told us that about 70 percent of the current Impala is going to rental and commercial fleets, meaning that two-thirds of these cars won’t be purchased by individual humans. For the 2014 model, they said, those numbers are going to be reversed — with the 2013 model soldering on as a fleet-only special named, unironically, the Impala Limited. But you can’t just flip a switch. Not at these prices. The Impala may not be a budget vehicle, but soon enough, Budget may be the only place you’ll find one.

2014 Impala

ateixeira

From a conversion van to a coupe? That must've been a bit of a shock.

I wonder what I'll end up replacing the minivan with. It's a great trip car, comfy, roomy, long wheelbase for great tracking. Probably couldn't go any smaller than a mid-sizer. You get spoiled pretty quick.

Then again I have a 2nd car as a daily driver, so I don't mind a big trip car.

ateixeira

Neal probably wrote that review on the same day he found out he could no longer work from home.

He fixates on the price and really can't get beyond that. How many of them will be loaded up that high, and even if they are, how many people will pay over $40k street price? I bet very few.

305hp is plenty and that Reese's interior color scheme looks trick. The pop up hidden compartment locks in valet mode, and the tech works well. How can "total overkill" also be "dated and stale"?

Neal doesn't get the tech, fine, but then don't be so critical.

This is why you should not write a review when you're angry.

imidazol97

>conversion van to a coupe? That must've been a bit of a shock.

They had an MG when first married, 2nd marriage. So the Koup made sense to them with their GMC Jimmy. I viewed it as a late life crisis kar for both of them, although it was her pick. They happened to see it and liked the red Koup while walking a Kia lot next to a restaurant. I'd mentioned before the window sticker had a $2400 extra fee along with $90 for air in the tires. Don't know what they ended up paying when negotiating. Dealer did screw them on the trunk lid spoiler--didn't install it.

fho2008

They were always offered as a van, and of course the work van, I bet they sold 80/20 or 90/10 as vans/work vans.

Just try working on an Astro vs an Aerostar, I know some mechanics who wont have anything to do with the Aerostar, myself included, talk about a tight fit. With the Astro a tune up is easy, the Aerostar.......dont even want to know.

andre1969

He fixates on the price and really can't get beyond that. How many of them will be loaded up that high, and even if they are, how many people will pay over $40k street price? I bet very few.

I like how he whines about how at $40K, you'd better put more than the 3.6 in it. Somebody needs to point out to him that the XTS can get MSRP'ed up to $60K, yet it just has the 3.6. The LaCrosse, Enclave, Acadia, and Traverse can be priced up pretty high, as well.

I think keeping the old Impala around as a fleet car makes sense, as the new one just has too much of a "premium" feel to be put into service as a police car, taxi, etc.