Oh, I've seen the comments on domestic buyers being "racist." Funny, a lot of domestic owners I know in Philly happy to be African-American and I know an Asian guy with a Chevrolet Impala.
This "lunatic on the fringe" happens to absolutely love his Buicks and Cadillacs and looks forward to purchasing more in the future.
I can believe it. There are a few things at play. First, MSRP of all these cars is inflated, and if someone doesn't get 10% off (or even more for the six figure models), they aren't trying. The only time highline cars sell near sticker is when the model is brand new and hyped. It may have stickered at 95K, but probably sold closer to 80K when new.
Your friend's car is an S430 4Matic, if I remember right. Effectively 9 years old, probably has over 100K on it, second to last model year of a design that began production in 1999. As well, there's a new S-class out right now, so this is now 2 generations old. All of these work against it. On top of that, the earlier years of that design (called W220) can be troublesome, as the tech was very bleeding edge - the price you pay for innovation. Later cars like your friend's can be better, but they have a stigma. As was said, maintenance on these can be intensive, and the people who really can afford it want new ones. Cars like this can be bargains for handy people who want comfort, but disastrous money pits for people who want to look rich for cheap.
The dealer's offer sounds believable, esp if the car has mileage or any wear. Even as a pristine low mileage car, real world prices won't get much out of the mid teens.
For the 2012, I don't know what that might be. C120 isn't a model as you suggest. For that price, I would assume it was a CL550 or S550. A CL should still be worth more than that, but I know today a typical 2011 S550 would retail in the 60s.
You and up keep talking about these extremists yet I've been on this thread (and its predecessor, the GM thread) for years and have not observed anything close to that.
I didn't see either of you hop on the Toyota thread to attack the guy who said they deserved the tsunami.
I was surprised they knocked the IS so harshly. The one I drove wasn't bad per se, just not the astounding revelation the marketers would have one believe. A nice car, not a game changer.
With the 3er continuing to evolve and a new C just about a year away, it's going to have a tough row to hoe.
I do know I can find the 'racist' comment again (won't), as I did when the poster denied it, probably a year ago.
I've seen people other than the domestic-likers here, use language that would get you bleeped on TV, and also recall a poster using a word for the mentally-challenged that I personally haven't heard anyone speak in thirty years.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
They always got criticized for the cramped interiors, and early ones for the chronograph style gauges. The IS never scored all that well with CR in subjective ratings.
In trying to make them "sportier" they might be losing the isolation and NVH control that was their main competitive advantage.
Can't be all things to all people, so you wonder if that'll backfire.
The biggest negatives of the last IS was the small back seat and the transmission "hump" that went down the middle of the floor to accommodate the AWD system. Also the engine choices were a mixed bag, the 2.5l (which is tiny for a V6) was pretty fun in RWD form but taxed with the AWD version...
Or there was the excellent (probably the best V6 in recent years), 3.5l which if you wanted it you had to pony up mid 40's before you even added options! That's 335 territory... And it wasn't until the final years that you could get that lovely V6 with AWD, which if you lived in the snow belt, you most definitely needed.
That option should have been there right out of the gate IMO. Then again, it probably helped gain all those IS250 AWD leases...
I'm also curious to see what the new Jag 3-series fighter brings as well as the proposed Model E from Tesla.
When anyone plays the bias card, though, we veer off topic and the name calling starts.
Let's focus on merit.
Look at Ford - record profits. Why? They have a strong lineup! The Fiesta is one of the most entertaining small cars, the Focus ST is fun, the Fusion looks fantastic, the Explorer is much improved, the F150 still sells well, etc.
They have room for improvement, mostly in getting things right at each launch, and maybe having their hybrids meet their EPA claims, but they still get a very good report card.
Ka-ching. $$$
GM has a solid Impala redo - let's hope it's a hit and GM's bean counters realize the old "build it and they will come" philosophy, then apply the same level of effort in other classes.
When we look at pickups I defend GM's update because they made some under the skin improvements. Compare that to Toyota, who just gave the Tundra a face lift. Or Nissan, who is selling a fifty year old truck now. Roughly. LOL
Stating "brand loyalty" on a message board is not the same as BUYING your loyal brand.
Until the checkbook comes out, any claims for brand loyalty are mostly 'blue sky' IMO.
It takes quite a bit of "loyalty" to see your favorite car side by side with a competitor's car, the latter giving you a lot more for your money, and/or better styling, and/or a better financing deal, and still buy the car you are loyal to instead.
>>>>>>It takes quite a bit of "loyalty" to see your favorite car side by side with a competitor's car, the latter giving you a lot more for your money, and/or better styling, and/or a better financing deal, and still buy the car you are loyal to instead.>>>>>>
It is also loyalty to the U.S. There are some who will only buy an American branded car from an American company. There are only two companies to pick from now. GM and Ford.
There are some who will only comparison shop American brands and refuse to even look at or test drive a foreign brand. Might these people have ever missed out on a better product of a foreign brand?
You have to wonder if American only branded car buyers fulfill their needs in their households with only American branded everything - appliances, electronics and other stuff. Do they do without lest they bring a foreign brand into their homes.
Well, I know that what I said in that post was 100% accurate.
I just got the funniest call from my daughter at Miami U. Apparently Chevy was there with a "$42,000 Camaro", "White with orange racing stripes". Geez, I saw a '14 SS for $37K so not sure what she saw...and drove...said it was not a convertible, but she was excited.
"I got to drive it to 50 mph and I also revved it after asking!".
All she had to do was show her license, and she also got a $10 Visa gift card.
I don't know how smart a promotion that is, but she was excited. She said the rep said 'you seem to know a lot about Camaros' and she replied 'My Dad only buys Chevys; we have a Malibu and two Cobalts'. (She has a PT Cruiser but left that out apparently!).
I asked her if she had a hard time seeing out, but she said she didn't. She's 5'1". Had two friends with her.
The timing of this is funny ha-ha I think.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Well that may be but Americans over the past 30 years have shown little reluctance to buy foreign-made cars.
The radical shift in market share for the D3 over the past 3 decades suggests that patriotism is not much of a factor in car-buying anymore, nor should it be. It makes for a lousier product IMO.
Who are among the most patriotic car-buyers? The French. You want to drive around in French cars?
I'm not sure there's not good foreign used car values out there as well.
Here's some anecdotal evidence, oops, I mean an anecdotal true story.
It was 2002, we bought a '92 Honda Civic DX Hatchback for $3,900 out the door from a used car dealer (It had 166,000 miles).
Just over two years later, it had about 200,000 miles. We did have to get new brakes (including rotors) before selling it, so a significant chunk of change was used to bring it back to tip top condition. One time a hose leaked coolant and it was cut and reattached; no biggie.
Other then that it ran just fine. Sold it for $3,200 private party sale.
$700 + minor maintenance for about 35,000 miles over 2 years of use is a low car payment. Thanks Honda.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
"There are some who will only comparison shop American brands and refuse to even look at or test drive a foreign brand. Might these people have ever missed out on a better product of a foreign brand?"
I know a few of these people who are currently like this and a couple of former "Buy Murican" types. And one of the biggest factors I have heard from them is resale plays a HUGE part. As does the money on the hoods up front...
When you are accustomed to getting 3 or 4 grand off the top on a domestic product and you are one who should visit the "Chronic car buyers" thread buying a new vehicle every 3 or 4 years you'll probably find better resale value if you trade it on another domestic. An import brand like Honda or Toyota who have traditionally better values tend to lowball you on domestic trade-ins. Some others like Mazda or Mitsubushi are a little more willing to give you a decent trade value if you know how to bargain.
So right there, you are upside down if you make the switch, both up front and at trade in time... And if you happen to be one of those who trade frequently due to problems, high maintenance or just plain boredom, then you are probably going to get those GM or Ford dealers salivating to sell you a new one... lol.
Also, I know that GM offers huge points for ownership, there are folks I know who have thousands on their "GM Card" and those dollars go a long way towards keeping those folks in the fold. I have a similar Subaru Card, but my points are only worth about 700 bucks or so...
Lastly, there is the UAW discounts and loyalty. Heck those guys won't even let you park in their parking lots when you visit their plants if you are not driving a UAW built vehicle. But, I digress, those folks are major repeat business for the domestic makes.
I also know a few who have gotten away from the fray (In Domestic fanboi - world, those people are known as "Sheep" or "Clueless" or "Morons" btw) for various reasons like repairs, poor dealer attitude, etc and don't really put them back on the shopping list. But neither are they ones who necessarily are "repeat" buyers for imports either. They'll buy a Toyota, a Honda or 2 but then they'll venture into the BMW's and Mercedes of the world down the road. Heck, I've owned 7 Hondas and I buy Subarus now and am looking at Volvos and Mazdas for my next ride.
I do keep an open mind tho when it comes to choices and would also like to look at the Grand Cherokee and even the new Escape or Explorer but knowing that if something goes bad down the road and I want out, I may be WAY upside down in trade. Just the nature of the beast I guess...
Heck, I just read here at Edmunds that they lost almost 10 thousand bucks when they traded their long term Focus ST after a year! That's crazy.
The Priceline website said my standard SUV rental the other weekend would be a Grand Cherokee or equivalent. The Avis confirming email said Ford Edge or equivalent.
When I got to the front desk, the choice was a Nissan Xterra or Toyota Venza. Neither excited me, but I'd of chosen the Xterra cause I believed that might have more cargo room which is why I was renting an SUV in the first place.
I jokingly asked if they had an X5 since it was on their premium cool car collection list on the table. He said they did, and quoted some outrageous upgrade cost. I said forget it. He then lowered that upgrade cost by 50% and I thought about it for a minute, and said yes, give me the BMW X5. Nice SUV.
The point is I chose between 3 foreign rental cars, no domestics in the fleet. The websites need to be updated; maybe the Big 3 are dumping less on fleets after all.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I actually found the '14 IS 350 to be very Lexus like. Quiet, comfortable, and with a good comfy suspension tuning (but definitely sportier than your typical Toyota). It did ride and drive somewhat sporty, but I still think they have a way to go to catch up to BMW/Audi. And yes, I even switched it to F Sport + mode.
My biggest gripe was the two versions I test drove both felt like the computer was not letting me get more than 205 horses out of the 305 that were supposed to be available. First 100 mile electronic break-in nanny at work????
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
As some have said, even if another car might be better and/or more reliable, if they have a good history with a brand, good service from the dealer, and good past warranty experience, they probably will stick with the status quo. They might not have lots of foreign mechanics and auto shops to choose from nearby.
I know having a good Audi mechanic nearby that doesn't charge exorbitant rates helped in my car decisions. I don't have a good Mercedes mechanic to go to or reference yet, and it doesn't hurt that I think you get way more bang for your buck with Audi.
For me, Audi just has more hits rather than misses compared to anyone else. Maybe it helped that I bought one in '06 and filled out their questionnaires and surveys every time since then that they sent to me. That probably helped them know what is important and what is not important to their customer.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I'm sure there has been many Motortrend car of the year's and NA Car of the Year awards given out to cars that got panned by CR or at least got many black dots.
If anything I've always viewed CR as the unique out-lier to other mags.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
We talk about bias against domestics, bias against imports, but nothing comes even close to the bias against Consumer Reports. Not even close! ________________
A very true and wise statement.
Some people just can't handle the truth. They would just rather bury their heads in the sand than accept the truth.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I believe the term "Murican" is a derogatory term . Much the same as parallel diminuitive terms for cars sourced in the East using a food type as the term.
I'm sure there is a better term that could be used to make the point.
Looks like yet another one of my brilliant predictions isn't holding water, lol.
"Auto sales are on pace to increase at least 12 percent this month from a year ago, according to four analyst forecasts released today, as the industry regains momentum lost during a weak September and a 16-day government shutdown."
It's a mixed bag in rooting either for or against GM.
On one hand you don't want people to use the ends to justify their wrong means. Bailouts are a bad idea and people being able to point out how successful it was makes that harder for some to see.
Of course, history repeats itself, and we all know what has happened with the multiple bailouts of Chrysler. That means that a 2nd bailout of GM is inevitable, and hence, there can be no success long term.
As for Chrysler, everyone knows my personal experience with them. I swore they'd never see another dollar from me, and then they managed to steal my money via taxes via the bailouts. Infuriating to say the least.
On the other hand I root for GM to succeed, if only so that the market has more differentiation and options, which helps to keep the costs of the truly great cars down.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I just wish you'd admit that if there is sample error, it's random and fairly evenly distributed. Not something that makes the domestics get a more unfavorable look than say the foreign nameplates.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
These days the company has changed hands so many times that the present company has almost no connection with the old Chrysler ______________________________________________
I don't know about that. The fact that Edmunds' long term 2013 Dodge Dart tester had the windshield crack from top to bottom for no apparent reason whatsoever other than poor quality; very similarly and identically to what my '95 Neon did about 13 years ago has me thinking that the connection is very much still there and alive and well!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Regarding your #2 point "GM doesn't honor warranties after bankruptcy"
If Bush and Obama hadn't awarded a gift of 60 billion dollars to GM to keep them alive, and they were long gone today, do you honestly think Wagoner would have contributed and taken from his golden parachute to pay for current warranty claims? Just asking because I don't know.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Oh, there's sample error among imports too. It'd be impossible to not have it. We discussed this previously, but I doubt the '11 Juke is much-worse-than-average and the '12 is FOUR classifications better. I know how they compare to other vehicles of the same year, but they'll often say things about staying away from this model year in the middle, or whatever, but I don't recall ever seeing any discussion on their part of the possibility of sample error.
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CR is very upfront about their testing and their sample sizes. If they don't have a large enough sample they pass on recommending it until they get enough to be significant.
I'm a little surprised at the trend in this forum. To me the state of the US auto market is the US market, which includes cars Americans buy, American-made cars like the Camry, Accord (built in my state) and Altima, and American-based industries like GM and Ford that also have huge markets abroad. I think any distinction between domestic and foreign is pretty arbitrary at this stage of the industry. What are the cars bought in the US and how do they stack up? I don't understand the concept of rooting for one company or another. I currently own a Honda, but I'm not rooting for them over other brands. I find the ones I have had to be reliable and a good value. If they were not I'd look at something else.
I'm a little surprised at the trend in this forum. To me the state of the US auto market is the US market, which includes cars Americans buy, American-made cars like the Camry, Accord (built in my state) and Altima, and American-based industries like GM and Ford that also have huge markets abroad. I think any distinction between domestic and foreign is pretty arbitrary at this stage of the industry.
Apparently to some users the difference is that the company HQ is in the US and somehow that makes them more American and somehow that is more partriotic to these people.
I've seen references to the fact that at least these HQ people didn't have ancestors that killed Americans in WWII (no I'm not kidding about that). So I guess that should rule out German and Japanese nameplates if that is important to somebody.
This is regardless of the fact that these same managers in US corporate HQ might be the inept ones that ran a company into the ground. And this is also even though most of the workers, dealers, assemblers, marketers, etc. of the "foreign nameplate" brands are just as American as any other make in so many cases.
Certainly anybody can buy a vehicle for whatever reasons are important to them. It's great that the US auto market gives us many high quality choices.
How about: "You can Lead, Follow or just get out of the way."
That's what GM and Chrysler did back in '09. They got out of the way. The competition led them for a long time and the only thing they followed were making crappy cars because they wanted to.
An Oklahoma City jury has found that electronic defects in a Toyota Motor Corp. vehicle caused it to accelerate out of control and crash into a wall, killing a passenger and seriously injuring the driver.
The verdict, handed down late Thursday, requires Toyota to pay a total of $3 million in compensatory damages to Jean Bookout and the family of the deceased passenger, Barbara Schwarz. They were the sole occupants of a 2005 Camry that crashed in Eufaula, Okla., in September 2007.
The jury will award punitive damages in the case as well, based on its finding that Toyota's actions were in "reckless disregard" of others. Deliberations on the second set of damages will begin on Friday.
My 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue was made back in Iacocca's day and it turned out to be one of the nicest cars I've ever owned. Heck, I would buy another M-Body in a nanosecond if I could find one in nice condition. Memories of that car make me want to consider a Chrysler 300-C for a new car purchase. Make mine red!
" Memories of that car make me want to consider a Chrysler 300-C for a new car purchase. Make mine red!"
Now that we can agree on! The Hemi/8speed has a bunch of power to spare in my Ram, I can only imagine how it would perform in a 300. A v6 just can't offer the same experience as a v8. Sure add a few turbos and power isn't an issue, but it will never sound like a v8. The hemi just sounds bad [non-permissible content removed].
I just turned 4k miles (man that didn't take long) and so far the Ram has been perfect.
As for Chrysler quality I don't know how good or bad it really is. The few people I know with Chrysler products. A few 09 and newer Rams and a couple of 09 and newer Minivans, have been able to go 100k without any issues.
If my Ram can go 100k w/o any significant problems, it would be the first domestic I've owned to do so.
This is my second Chrysler product. My first was a '95 Neon Sport Coupe. It wasn't as bad as Andres. Really it wasn't bad at all other than being crude. I put 70k or so of relatively trouble free miles on it during the 2 1/2 years I owned it.
I'm just not particularly pro any manufacturer. There is probably a vehicle from almost each manufacturer I'd like to own.
I'm kind of digging the new CTS V-sport. To bad it won't fit in the driveway or budget. But that's the price I pay to have other types of toys. New boat last year and new truck this year means I've done my share to stimulate the economy lately.
Recently, a top exec at GM said "no more" to the typical GM products:
FORTUNE -- Mary Barra has one directive for her employees: "The simple thing I say to them is, No more crappy cars, and that resonates."
That is now. Here is a snipit back when the Cruze was about to launch in 2010. The President of GM North America basically said the same thing. Reuss and other top executives meet weekly outside Ann Arbor for what they call Knothole Rides. They test drive new GM vehicles and their competition and then offer frank assessments to vehicle line executives and chief engineers. "We have never really built good small cars," Reuss said. "But we are now."
Gary Altman, Cruze chief engineer, said the discussions at these rides are frank and sincere.
"If there is something wrong, they'll let you know, and you fix it right away," Altman said.
While driving a Cobalt, Karl Stracke, vice president of global vehicle engineering, was blunt: "Look at this car, it's horrible. How did this get through so many people."
Comments
They have a solid lineup and worked out the kinks after some fumbled intros, and now it's paying off.
This "lunatic on the fringe" happens to absolutely love his Buicks and Cadillacs and looks forward to purchasing more in the future.
Your friend's car is an S430 4Matic, if I remember right. Effectively 9 years old, probably has over 100K on it, second to last model year of a design that began production in 1999. As well, there's a new S-class out right now, so this is now 2 generations old. All of these work against it. On top of that, the earlier years of that design (called W220) can be troublesome, as the tech was very bleeding edge - the price you pay for innovation. Later cars like your friend's can be better, but they have a stigma. As was said, maintenance on these can be intensive, and the people who really can afford it want new ones. Cars like this can be bargains for handy people who want comfort, but disastrous money pits for people who want to look rich for cheap.
The dealer's offer sounds believable, esp if the car has mileage or any wear. Even as a pristine low mileage car, real world prices won't get much out of the mid teens.
For the 2012, I don't know what that might be. C120 isn't a model as you suggest. For that price, I would assume it was a CL550 or S550. A CL should still be worth more than that, but I know today a typical 2011 S550 would retail in the 60s.
I didn't see either of you hop on the Toyota thread to attack the guy who said they deserved the tsunami.
The hosts clean it up anyway.
Time to let it go?
With the 3er continuing to evolve and a new C just about a year away, it's going to have a tough row to hoe.
I do know I can find the 'racist' comment again (won't), as I did when the poster denied it, probably a year ago.
I've seen people other than the domestic-likers here, use language that would get you bleeped on TV, and also recall a poster using a word for the mentally-challenged that I personally haven't heard anyone speak in thirty years.
In trying to make them "sportier" they might be losing the isolation and NVH control that was their main competitive advantage.
Can't be all things to all people, so you wonder if that'll backfire.
Or there was the excellent (probably the best V6 in recent years), 3.5l which if you wanted it you had to pony up mid 40's before you even added options! That's 335 territory... And it wasn't until the final years that you could get that lovely V6 with AWD, which if you lived in the snow belt, you most definitely needed.
That option should have been there right out of the gate IMO. Then again, it probably helped gain all those IS250 AWD leases...
I'm also curious to see what the new Jag 3-series fighter brings as well as the proposed Model E from Tesla.
Let's focus on merit.
Look at Ford - record profits. Why? They have a strong lineup! The Fiesta is one of the most entertaining small cars, the Focus ST is fun, the Fusion looks fantastic, the Explorer is much improved, the F150 still sells well, etc.
They have room for improvement, mostly in getting things right at each launch, and maybe having their hybrids meet their EPA claims, but they still get a very good report card.
Ka-ching. $$$
GM has a solid Impala redo - let's hope it's a hit and GM's bean counters realize the old "build it and they will come" philosophy, then apply the same level of effort in other classes.
When we look at pickups I defend GM's update because they made some under the skin improvements. Compare that to Toyota, who just gave the Tundra a face lift. Or Nissan, who is selling a fifty year old truck now. Roughly. LOL
Until the checkbook comes out, any claims for brand loyalty are mostly 'blue sky' IMO.
It takes quite a bit of "loyalty" to see your favorite car side by side with a competitor's car, the latter giving you a lot more for your money, and/or better styling, and/or a better financing deal, and still buy the car you are loyal to instead.
It is also loyalty to the U.S. There are some who will only buy an American branded car from an American company. There are only two companies to pick from now. GM and Ford.
There are some who will only comparison shop American brands and refuse to even look at or test drive a foreign brand. Might these people have ever missed out on a better product of a foreign brand?
You have to wonder if American only branded car buyers fulfill their needs in their households with only American branded everything - appliances, electronics and other stuff. Do they do without lest they bring a foreign brand into their homes.
I just got the funniest call from my daughter at Miami U. Apparently Chevy was there with a "$42,000 Camaro", "White with orange racing stripes". Geez, I saw a '14 SS for $37K so not sure what she saw...and drove...said it was not a convertible, but she was excited.
"I got to drive it to 50 mph and I also revved it after asking!".
All she had to do was show her license, and she also got a $10 Visa gift card.
I don't know how smart a promotion that is, but she was excited. She said the rep said 'you seem to know a lot about Camaros' and she replied 'My Dad only buys Chevys; we have a Malibu and two Cobalts'. (She has a PT Cruiser but left that out apparently!).
I asked her if she had a hard time seeing out, but she said she didn't. She's 5'1". Had two friends with her.
The timing of this is funny ha-ha I think.
The radical shift in market share for the D3 over the past 3 decades suggests that patriotism is not much of a factor in car-buying anymore, nor should it be. It makes for a lousier product IMO.
Who are among the most patriotic car-buyers? The French. You want to drive around in French cars?
__________________________________________
However, bankruptcy and utter repeated failure almost did.
At least the Tsunami wasn't a man-made disaster like the GM and Chrysler bankruptcies.
It's true though, go to France, so much of what you see on the road is French. Even the proud Germans are much more diverse.
Here's some anecdotal evidence, oops, I mean an anecdotal true story.
It was 2002, we bought a '92 Honda Civic DX Hatchback for $3,900 out the door from a used car dealer (It had 166,000 miles).
Just over two years later, it had about 200,000 miles. We did have to get new brakes (including rotors) before selling it, so a significant chunk of change was used to bring it back to tip top condition. One time a hose leaked coolant and it was cut and reattached; no biggie.
Other then that it ran just fine. Sold it for $3,200 private party sale.
$700 + minor maintenance for about 35,000 miles over 2 years of use is a low car payment. Thanks Honda.
I know a few of these people who are currently like this and a couple of former "Buy Murican" types. And one of the biggest factors I have heard from them is resale plays a HUGE part. As does the money on the hoods up front...
When you are accustomed to getting 3 or 4 grand off the top on a domestic product and you are one who should visit the "Chronic car buyers" thread
So right there, you are upside down if you make the switch, both up front and at trade in time... And if you happen to be one of those who trade frequently due to problems, high maintenance or just plain boredom, then you are probably going to get those GM or Ford dealers salivating to sell you a new one... lol.
Also, I know that GM offers huge points for ownership, there are folks I know who have thousands on their "GM Card" and those dollars go a long way towards keeping those folks in the fold. I have a similar Subaru Card, but my points are only worth about 700 bucks or so...
Lastly, there is the UAW discounts and loyalty. Heck those guys won't even let you park in their parking lots when you visit their plants if you are not driving a UAW built vehicle. But, I digress, those folks are major repeat business for the domestic makes.
I also know a few who have gotten away from the fray (In Domestic fanboi - world, those people are known as "Sheep" or "Clueless" or "Morons" btw) for various reasons like repairs, poor dealer attitude, etc and don't really put them back on the shopping list. But neither are they ones who necessarily are "repeat" buyers for imports either. They'll buy a Toyota, a Honda or 2 but then they'll venture into the BMW's and Mercedes of the world down the road. Heck, I've owned 7 Hondas and I buy Subarus now and am looking at Volvos and Mazdas for my next ride.
I do keep an open mind tho when it comes to choices and would also like to look at the Grand Cherokee and even the new Escape or Explorer but knowing that if something goes bad down the road and I want out, I may be WAY upside down in trade. Just the nature of the beast I guess...
Heck, I just read here at Edmunds that they lost almost 10 thousand bucks when they traded their long term Focus ST after a year! That's crazy.
When I got to the front desk, the choice was a Nissan Xterra or Toyota Venza. Neither excited me, but I'd of chosen the Xterra cause I believed that might have more cargo room which is why I was renting an SUV in the first place.
I jokingly asked if they had an X5 since it was on their premium cool car collection list on the table. He said they did, and quoted some outrageous upgrade cost. I said forget it. He then lowered that upgrade cost by 50% and I thought about it for a minute, and said yes, give me the BMW X5. Nice SUV.
The point is I chose between 3 foreign rental cars, no domestics in the fleet. The websites need to be updated; maybe the Big 3 are dumping less on fleets after all.
Right now, in 2013, you'd have a much higher buyer interest in 2003 Japanese cars than 2003 American cars, and a higher resale rate, too, I think.
But if that shifts by 2023, then you know that American cars have finally made it to 'world-class", at least in the eyes of the American consumer.
My biggest gripe was the two versions I test drove both felt like the computer was not letting me get more than 205 horses out of the 305 that were supposed to be available. First 100 mile electronic break-in nanny at work????
I know having a good Audi mechanic nearby that doesn't charge exorbitant rates helped in my car decisions. I don't have a good Mercedes mechanic to go to or reference yet, and it doesn't hurt that I think you get way more bang for your buck with Audi.
For me, Audi just has more hits rather than misses compared to anyone else. Maybe it helped that I bought one in '06 and filled out their questionnaires and surveys every time since then that they sent to me. That probably helped them know what is important and what is not important to their customer.
If anything I've always viewed CR as the unique out-lier to other mags.
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A very true and wise statement.
Some people just can't handle the truth. They would just rather bury their heads in the sand than accept the truth.
I believe the term "Murican" is a derogatory term . Much the same as parallel diminuitive terms for cars sourced in the East using a food type as the term.
I'm sure there is a better term that could be used to make the point.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"Auto sales are on pace to increase at least 12 percent this month from a year ago, according to four analyst forecasts released today, as the industry regains momentum lost during a weak September and a 16-day government shutdown."
Analysts predict double-digit jump in monthly sales (Automotive News)
October Auto Sales Keep Pace Despite Threat from Government Shutdown
Or anything else foreign made. Just look at the success Walmart has experienced over the last 30 years, along with where their merchandise comes from.
On one hand you don't want people to use the ends to justify their wrong means. Bailouts are a bad idea and people being able to point out how successful it was makes that harder for some to see.
Of course, history repeats itself, and we all know what has happened with the multiple bailouts of Chrysler. That means that a 2nd bailout of GM is inevitable, and hence, there can be no success long term.
As for Chrysler, everyone knows my personal experience with them. I swore they'd never see another dollar from me, and then they managed to steal my money via taxes via the bailouts. Infuriating to say the least.
On the other hand I root for GM to succeed, if only so that the market has more differentiation and options, which helps to keep the costs of the truly great cars down.
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I don't know about that. The fact that Edmunds' long term 2013 Dodge Dart tester had the windshield crack from top to bottom for no apparent reason whatsoever other than poor quality; very similarly and identically to what my '95 Neon did about 13 years ago has me thinking that the connection is very much still there and alive and well!
If Bush and Obama hadn't awarded a gift of 60 billion dollars to GM to keep them alive, and they were long gone today, do you honestly think Wagoner would have contributed and taken from his golden parachute to pay for current warranty claims? Just asking because I don't know.
Warranties were honored after the bankruptcy. This I do know.
I'm a little surprised at the trend in this forum. To me the state of the US auto market is the US market, which includes cars Americans buy, American-made cars like the Camry, Accord (built in my state) and Altima, and American-based industries like GM and Ford that also have huge markets abroad. I think any distinction between domestic and foreign is pretty arbitrary at this stage of the industry. What are the cars bought in the US and how do they stack up? I don't understand the concept of rooting for one company or another. I currently own a Honda, but I'm not rooting for them over other brands. I find the ones I have had to be reliable and a good value. If they were not I'd look at something else.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
Bingo!
And lots of Americans took him up on that, too.
Apparently to some users the difference is that the company HQ is in the US and somehow that makes them more American and somehow that is more partriotic to these people.
I've seen references to the fact that at least these HQ people didn't have ancestors that killed Americans in WWII (no I'm not kidding about that). So I guess that should rule out German and Japanese nameplates if that is important to somebody.
This is regardless of the fact that these same managers in US corporate HQ might be the inept ones that ran a company into the ground. And this is also even though most of the workers, dealers, assemblers, marketers, etc. of the "foreign nameplate" brands are just as American as any other make in so many cases.
Certainly anybody can buy a vehicle for whatever reasons are important to them. It's great that the US auto market gives us many high quality choices.
That's a great idea!
How about: "You can Lead, Follow or just get out of the way."
That's what GM and Chrysler did back in '09. They got out of the way. The competition led them for a long time and the only thing they followed were making crappy cars because they wanted to.
The verdict, handed down late Thursday, requires Toyota to pay a total of $3 million in compensatory damages to Jean Bookout and the family of the deceased passenger, Barbara Schwarz. They were the sole occupants of a 2005 Camry that crashed in Eufaula, Okla., in September 2007.
The jury will award punitive damages in the case as well, based on its finding that Toyota's actions were in "reckless disregard" of others. Deliberations on the second set of damages will begin on Friday.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
Now that we can agree on! The Hemi/8speed has a bunch of power to spare in my Ram, I can only imagine how it would perform in a 300. A v6 just can't offer the same experience as a v8. Sure add a few turbos and power isn't an issue, but it will never sound like a v8. The hemi just sounds bad [non-permissible content removed].
I just turned 4k miles (man that didn't take long) and so far the Ram has been perfect.
As for Chrysler quality I don't know how good or bad it really is. The few people I know with Chrysler products. A few 09 and newer Rams and a couple of 09 and newer Minivans, have been able to go 100k without any issues.
If my Ram can go 100k w/o any significant problems, it would be the first domestic I've owned to do so.
This is my second Chrysler product. My first was a '95 Neon Sport Coupe. It wasn't as bad as Andres. Really it wasn't bad at all other than being crude. I put 70k or so of relatively trouble free miles on it during the 2 1/2 years I owned it.
I'm just not particularly pro any manufacturer. There is probably a vehicle from almost each manufacturer I'd like to own.
I'm kind of digging the new CTS V-sport. To bad it won't fit in the driveway or budget. But that's the price I pay to have other types of toys. New boat last year and new truck this year means I've done my share to stimulate the economy lately.
FORTUNE -- Mary Barra has one directive for her employees: "The simple thing I say to them is, No more crappy cars, and that resonates."
That is now. Here is a snipit back when the Cruze was about to launch in 2010. The President of GM North America basically said the same thing.
Reuss and other top executives meet weekly outside Ann Arbor for what they call Knothole Rides. They test drive new GM vehicles and their competition and then offer frank assessments to vehicle line executives and chief engineers.
"We have never really built good small cars," Reuss said. "But we are now."
Gary Altman, Cruze chief engineer, said the discussions at these rides are frank and sincere.
"If there is something wrong, they'll let you know, and you fix it right away," Altman said.
While driving a Cobalt, Karl Stracke, vice president of global vehicle engineering, was blunt: "Look at this car, it's horrible. How did this get through so many people."
Execs test-drive new cars and the competition, offer candid evaluations
Looks like GM is becoming a real car company again.