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The Current State of the US Auto Market

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,900
    edited October 2013
    I enjoyed my new Cobalt enough to buy a used one for my daughter a month or so ago. Driving it to put gas in it the other day, I thought, "Geez, this is a nice-looking and driving car" with 58K miles. And yes, I drive other cars.

    Of course the Cruze is nicer than a Cobalt...it costs significantly more.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,033
    I just turned 4k miles (man that didn't take long) and so far the Ram has been perfect.

    Wow, that was fast...at the rate you're going, you'll be catching up to me in about 15 minutes! After 13 months, I only have about 5700 miles on my Ram!

    A v6 just can't offer the same experience as a v8. Sure add a few turbos and power isn't an issue, but it will never sound like a v8. The hemi just sounds bad [non-permissible content removed].

    I do through this dilemma every once in awhile when I think about getting a new car. A Charger is what I really want, if I get new. And I'm sure that even with the V-6, it's plenty powerful. Probably quicker than my Park Ave, and maybe about as quick as the Ram, since it's not as heavy and has two extra gears. But then I start thinking hey, the V-8 isn't THAT much more expensive, isn't THAT much thirstier, and if I'm going to get a car like this, might as well go all the way.

    But then, something totally off-the-wall comes along and distracts me. Today, for example, one of my co-workers and I were talking cars. He has a 2008 or so Civic, that's in for repairs because of a crack in the block that's making it leak coolant. Apparently, this is an issue with 2006-08 and some early '09 Civics, and while Honda hasn't issued a recall, if it happens, they have been replacing short-blocks free of charge. Well, today he borrowed a 2002 Bonneville SLE from his neighbor.

    In talking, I mentioned how I was going to look at a Bonneville before I bought my Park Ave, but when I called about it, it had already been sold. He mentioned that his neighbor, an older guy was thinking of selling this one. Hate to admit, but I'm a bit tempted, depending on how much he wants. It only has 45,000 miles. Leather, sunroof, nice looking wheels, plenty of power stuff. Only has the regular 3.8 instead of the supercharged, so I'd have to get used to the reduced power...but not having to put premium fuel in it would be nice!

    It's silver, which I don't like. It's attractive enough, but just too common and a color I'm getting tired of. I also don't like the red gauges. And even though it's the same basic design as my Park Ave, it feels a LOT smaller inside. Legroom is still good, but it sits lower to the floor and there's not nearly as much headroom. Back seat is noticeably tighter, as well.

    Gotta say, I'm tempted, even though I'm trying to force myself into something newer.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,681
    My neighbor went from a supercharged 3800 in a Gran Prix to a NA 3800 Gran Prix. He said the regular seemed peppier. I take that to mean off the line in normal driving, not full throttle. Of course, the gearing in the final drive and transmission gears could make that happen while the supercharged is set up for greater power at higher speeds and throttle.

    Aren't the Park Avenue and other H-bodies the same in the front, other than seat thicknesses, while the rear varies in legroom and perhaps headroom because of seat positioning in the rear. I believe the PA was 5 inches longer, but part of that was rear bumper overhang and front bumper shape. I need to do some research.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,033
    Now that you mention it, I think the gearing in the regular 3.8 is actually a bit quicker than the supercharged. Nothing major, but something like a 2.94:1 versus 2.84:1? Anyway, I remember a test of a 2000 LeSabre with the regular 3.8, and they got 0-60 in about 8.0 seconds. I think the supercharged Park Ave is around 7.7, so not a huge difference, really. I believe the non-supercharged Park Ave was good for around 9.0, and when they came out with the Lucerne, the 3.8 was getting a bit overmatched, and up to around 9.5 seconds.

    By this timeframe, all these cars were technically the G-body, I think. IIRC it debuted with the 1995 Aurora and Riviera, and the Park Ave and DeVille were added to it for 1997. The LeSabre and Bonneville were added to it for 2000. At some point, the Seville even transitioned to the G, I believe, but I forget what year.

    Compared to my Park Ave, the Bonneville's engine bay definitely looks about the same. Up front, it feels like the seat goes back about as far, but it's also lower to the ground, and the ceiling is lower.

    As for dimensions, I think my Park Ave is 206.8" long on a 113.8" wb. I believe the Bonneville, and 2000-05 LeSabre, were on a 112.2", and around 202" long? The Bonneville's roofline is more rakish than either the LeSabre or the Park Ave, and I think that bites into back seat legroom, as if they had to move the seat up a bit, to maintain headroom.

    Also, what was that timeframe that non-supercharged 3.8's tended to have intake manifold issues? Would this Bonneville fall within that?
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    "Wow, that was fast...at the rate you're going, you'll be catching up to me in about 15 minutes! After 13 months, I only have about 5700 miles on my Ram! "

    LOL! Hopefully the rate of mile accumulation will drop off soon. Been busy the last few months going here and there.

    Yeah, if buying a Charger or 300 with as few miles as you drive, the Hemi would be really hard to pass up on. The days of v8 power in something remotely affordable are probably numbered.

    "In talking, I mentioned how I was going to look at a Bonneville before I bought my Park Ave, but when I called about it, it had already been sold. He mentioned that his neighbor, an older guy was thinking of selling this one. Hate to admit, but I'm a bit tempted, depending on how much he wants. It only has 45,000 miles. Leather, sunroof, nice looking wheels, plenty of power stuff. Only has the regular 3.8 instead of the supercharged, so I'd have to get used to the reduced power...but not having to put premium fuel in it would be nice! "

    Aside from the hideously ugly dash and switch gear, those Bonnies have been growing on me as of late. I do think those were the years of the intake problem, but weren't they recalled?

    You probably wouldn't notice a big difference around town as the 3800 is a good in town performer. It's probably above 40 where the N/A 3800 would be doggy compared to the S/C.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,681
    edited October 2013
    >to have intake manifold issues? Would this Bonneville fall within that?

    1996-1999. Then 2000-2005. The EGR metal stovepipe and surrounding upper intake material are separated better than original 96-99. The throttle body gasket was too thin, so there should have been a program sticker on the radiator support where they put on stronger washers (dished) and put in ground almond shells to seal seeps,. Better fix is just put on a new, thicker, standard aftermarket throttle body gasket. Require R&R throttle body only. However, eventually the lower intake gaskets can start to seep where they meet the intake manifolds. R&R and replace with GM metal-framed gaskets for about gasket cost 50$ and $250 for 3 - 5 hours labor MAX where the Upper Intake ($89) with throttle body gasket can all be replaced and you're done for life.

    On Bonneville, take off beauty cover on engine to check the 3 circle stamps on top of the plastic UIM to see if the year date shows later than 01 or 02, indicated replacement with a GM upper. Then look at edge of lower metal intake gasket against the heads for a shiny metal edge or a new plastic edge to determine if lower gaskets have been replaced. If edge of lower gasket is dark metal, then it has a FelPro steel gasket. Also good.

    PS: I have a factory service manual for 2003 leSabre--does not include Bonneville like my 98 FSM. Take photo of RPO tag on spare tire cover, may be on underside. From those RPO codes, you will determine all variables for trans and suspension and option packages. Then when you look at other cars, compare with the installed trans and suspension.

    RPO Codes lookup: http://www.rpocodes.com/

    I know that Touring suspension leSabres got a different final drive ratio, that was slightly higher, making them feel peppier (if a leSabre can be described as "peppy"). Same for Malibu Maxx when I was looking at them.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Gonna go for the Hemi in that Charger? Several years ago we rented a Chrysler 300 Hemi to drive down the Pacific Coast Highway from San Francisco to Santa Barbara. Truly one of America's most breathtaking drives IMO. The car was comfortable and handled the curves and hills easily on Hwy 1. Returned up the 101 and no problem doing that drive! Thoroughly enjoyed the drive and the car.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited October 2013
    I occasionally see a Bonneville GXP running around here. I know it's not particularly a good sport sedan, but it's just different enough to be interesting. Though I'd imagine any issues with the Northstar V8 could make it expensive to maintain. Plus it's probably not as quick as a todays leading v6 sedans. Though from my experience, a v6 just doesn't provide the effortless power that a v8 can. Well unless the v6 has a turbo or two and/or is a diesel.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,033
    Coming back from lunch, I took a pic of this Bonneville in the parking lot...
    image

    I wonder what he'd take for it? According to KBB, a private party price would be around $6-7K! I didn't think it would still fetch that much at that age, even if the mileage is low. I have no idea how much he'd want for it though. And I'm just thinking about it casually right now.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,900
    I didn't remember those Bonnevilles getting the V8. I remember Grand Prix GTP's getting them later.
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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,033
    There was a Bonneville GXP for a few years that got the Caddy Northstar 4.6. I think it was a slightly de-tuned version, though, compared to what was going in the Cadillacs.

    The Grand Prix V-8 was a a 5.3, and I believe an aluminum version, of the truck 5.3. It was also offered in the Impala SS a few years, as well as the LaCrosse Super.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,900
    edited October 2013
    I had a Grand Prix GTP rental in Baltimore once, V8. It sounded great and had great punch, but boy, hit the gas and the steering wheel jumped out of your hands!

    I think the Bonneville prior to the style you're looking at, I thought had real nice, deep-looking leather bucket seats. Seems like I never saw too many of that last Bonneville around here.

    EDIT: Nevermind, I'm actually thinking about two Bonnevilles before the last--the one that looked a bit like it was scowling at you when you pulled up behind one!
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  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I owned a GP GTP. Horrible torque steer that I learned to compensate for. Great handling, cheapest interior and Itraded it with the key stuck in the ignition because it would release the key in Park. Worst resale value I've ever experienced.

    Water pump went at 40K. Crappy car, as Diesleone will attest to.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,033
    Didn't the Grand Prix GTP have slightly larger tires up front than in back? I vaguely seem to remember one of those W-bodies being set up like that, to help compensate for the added weight of the V-8.

    A few years back, a guy at work bought one of those V-8 Impalas...and promptly started whining about fuel prices! Well, duh! :P
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,900
    edited October 2013
    What year?

    Were the GTP's V8's? I seem to remember supercharged V6's but I wasn't into Pontiacs too much, after the '70's.

    The V8 Grand Prix I had in Baltimore was an '07 I believe.
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  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited October 2013
    My dad had a regular "GT" model for about 5 years. It started out as one of many company cars he's had since the 80's (Junk Cutlass Cieras that he first had) but he ended up buying this one out of the lease later on. Anyways, he actually got something like 240k out of it (he was a salesman, drove up and down the East coast) with only a few problems. Biggest thing was the last 50 or 60k the engine light would stay on and the transmission was slipping, badly... Blip the throttle to downshift and it would go into Neutral for easily 5 - 10 seconds before slamming into a lower gear and finally moving forward. I remember both of the front headlights literally fell off the car (The first was was thought to be stolen but the second one was found on the ground in the driveway... Oops...)

    Yup, the build quality was atrocious. And the rear seats were the most uncomfortable I have ever sat in. I remember they had the strangest contour where you could not slouch one bit in the seat without getting major fatigue in the lower back... But the thing did last.

    He eventually traded it in 2008 (I believe) for a new one which after a month had to have the manifold replaced because it cracked. The build quality wasn't much better than the first one and the transmission puked its guts around 80 thousand or about 3 years later. To be fair, the dealer did replace the transmission for free but he had to cover the labor which I think came out to about 1200 bucks. When he dumped it it had just turned 100k or so and had a incessant whine from the new transmission and some other electrical gremlins like the "Door is a Jar" dinging even when the door was closed and the radio went dead.

    That car was the one that got my folks to stop buying GM. Sure, maybe he got a "Friday car" or a the guys who built it were out drinking and smoking during their lunch breaks, but out of numerous "Company cars' since the 80's all it took was one jalopy to ruin it...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited October 2013
    No. No stagger. All uniform size front/back. Not a V-8. Turbo V-6.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited October 2013
    Funny, it was also the last gm car I bought. 1997. Then, I stuck with gm and replaced my wife's 1994 Suburban with the '03 Yukon Denali Lemon.

    Lesson learned.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,033
    Pontiac played around with the trim levels a bit from year to year. The V-8 was offered in 2005, and that year they had base and GT, which had the regular 3800, and the GTP, which had the supercharged 3800, and the GXP had the 5.3.

    For 2006-2007 the base had the regular 3800, the GT had the supercharged, and the GXP had the 5.3 V-8. The GTP was dropped, although the designation was picked up on the G6 I think.

    For 2008 the supercharged option was dropped, leaving just the base 3.8 and the GXP 5.3.

    The supercharged V-6 the Grand Prix of this generation used put out 260 hp, so it was beefed up a bit compared to the 240 hp in my Park Ave.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,681
    edited October 2013
    Comparison of the SC vs NA 3800 from Lucerne which was slightly detuned from earlier 3800s.

    image

    image

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    From what I remember, the GP GTP had an extra performance package which included wider tires in the front.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Depending on the gearing, a SC 3800 should offer a lot more performance. Though taller gearing can sap some of the extra power.
  • greg128greg128 Member Posts: 546
    New government schemes to part the ignorant taxpayer from his money...

    http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-roads-black-boxes-20131027,0,6090226.story#a- xzz2iwnGrdMh
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I don't really see what advantage automated tracking of miles will provide. In most states gasoline is taxed already, and the more you drive, the more fuel you use. Plus the more energy inefficient vehicles tend to be heavier and thus wear the roads more heavily, so the increased taxes paid are a good thing in those cases.

    This sounds just like government inventing some more for itself to do. Sort of like the NSA - if they sense something they aren't capturing, then go get it...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Not really. Did you read this part?

    " Those drivers will soon pay the mileage fees instead of gas taxes to the state"
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 262,993
    I read that article. I like the idea of tracking miles without the GPS.

    If the gas tax is eliminated in favor of the "pay as you go" method, then folks who buy hybrids and EVs will contribute to the road maintenance commensurate with the miles they drive.

    Ana, as the article mentions, it will modify behavior to reduce miles driven.

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  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Just a few thoughts...

    Overall, I don't really object to user fee structures that dictate the more one uses, the more one pays. There are a lot of toll roads that wouldn't exist today without toll/user fees, so it's not all a bad idea. It's the implementation of the pay-to-play structure I often have concerns about.

    After all, shouldn't a driver that drives a Prius 20K miles a year pay more in road user fees than a grandma that drives her 1980 Buick 5K miles a year?
    The Prius owner definitely gets more benefit from the roads in the example above.

    As for tracking, I'd be willing to guess that can already be done today in most cars, since most cars have a passenger inside holding a cell phone. And, since most phones have cameras imbedded into them, what's to keep a prying government from remotely turning the camera on to see what's happening inside the vehicle?
  • greg128greg128 Member Posts: 546
    "don't really see what advantage automated tracking of miles will provide. In most states gasoline is taxed already,"

    It is an ADDITIONAL TAX. You will still pay gasoline tax and they will probably raise that too. Also more information to add to the NSA data base. I worked at NSA during my tour in the US Navy. That is one GIANT organization. Bottom line is more money for them to spend as they see fit.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    "Bottom line is more money for them to spend as they see fit."

    Seriously, after exceeding $15 T in debt, who really thinks the governing bodies (at least, at the federal level) really care if there's any relationship between what taxes bring in .vs. what monies are spent?

    After all, haven't they already been spending money as they see fit?
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Do you believe for one minute that tracking and charging auto tax based on mileage driven is going to be just for roads? It will degenerate into 1984 Big Brother with tickets for traffic violations and will provide a way to increase toll revenues and the like. If we're not careful it will also end up becoming a way to track and sell personal data to marketing companies (but don't worry, they won't provide your specific information - just general marketing data!). Oh, and don't forget that the system will probably be another flawed security mess allowing hackers even more access to your information, or worse! Just raise the damn gasoline tax - less complex and less costly to administer. Except force Congress and the White House to only use that revenue for roads. If monies had been properly partitioned off in the past this country wouldn't have gotten into the big financial and infrastructure mess we now have...and no partisan blame because both parties are equally guilty here folks!
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    "It will degenerate into 1984 Big Brother with tickets for traffic violations and will provide a way to increase toll revenues and the like. "

    In many ways, that ship has already sailed. Many states allow for the inspection of vehicle data recorders to be examined to ascertain speeds, brake application, etc., especially after accidents. There are disclaimers about that very thing in most new car owner's manuals.

    Many toll roads already monitor speeding by time-stamping toll tickets, and will assess speeding fines if a driver gets from A to B too quickly.

    "Just raise the damn gasoline tax - less complex and less costly to administer."

    But, that gets us back to the core issue, which is everyone crying about paying more than their fare share. Is it fair for the hybrid/electric car owner to pay little to no road use fee?

    " Except force Congress and the White House to only use that revenue for roads. If monies had been properly partitioned off in the past this country wouldn't have gotten into the big financial and infrastructure mess we now have."

    So true. Unfortunately, representatives are selected by votes, not by taxes paid into the government. And, we all know that the only thing more important than a dollar to a politician is a vote. Get enough votes, and he can obtain all the dollars he wants.

    There simply isn't any way to force legislatures to spend monies collected for one use on that use. Remember, the same folks doing the spending make the laws that let them spend any way they wish...
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Many toll roads already monitor speeding by time-stamping toll tickets, and will assess speeding fines if a driver gets from A to B too quickly.

    I'd love to see actual proof of this. AFAIK, it's a legend.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's been my experience that most of the folks paranoid enough to think the government is spying on them through their car's electronics haven't really faced up the fact that they aren't important enough to be spied upon. :)
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    If you have and use an I-Pass account with the Illinois Tollway system, you can access your own personal data on their website of the tolls that you pay "automatically" via the transponder device attached to your windshield. Every toll paid shows the date, time and location of the I-Pass toll station.

    It would be relatively simple for Tollway authorities to put in software that would determine if your speed between toll stations was within or outside the law. Perhaps they do that already just for their own information purposes. Whether or not they contemplate imposing fines for exceeding speed limits is not known.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,033
    I heard that the Pennsylvania turnpike used to do that, once upon a time. But, I can neither prove nor deny. Every time I've ever been on the PA turnpike, even if I have been speeding, by the time you factor in a pitstop or two, it brings the average down.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    If you have and use an I-Pass account with the Illinois Tollway system, you can access your own personal data on their website of the tolls that you pay "automatically" via the transponder device attached to your windshield. Every toll paid shows the date, time and location of the I-Pass toll station.

    I'm quite aware of that. I have an EZ Pass here in MA and we can get the same information. But in the 10 plus years of using EZ Pass and having possibly exceeded the posted speed limit through 8 states up and down the east coast, not one ticket has been issued.

    What I asked for is proof that toll tickets or electronic tolling has been used to issue tickets as the OP said currently happens.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Well I can't testify to the fact from any personal experience, but the fact remains the possibility is there, and has existed for many years. I can say that I was on a Florida toll road many years ago, and there was a sign on the toll booth making that exact claim.

    As for the car data recorders being accessed, that's absolutely factual. You can find examples fairly easily.

    At the end of the day, those feeling the threat of tyrannical government arising from modern automotive technology are a little late to the game, as the threat has existed for decades.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I feel the same way.

    Gathering and collecting information is quite different than deciphering and using it.

    A recent example... The guy on the National Security staff sending all the tweets. How long did it take him to get caught? He'd been doing it since February, 2011.

    If it takes that long to catch a White House staffer acting up, I feel pretty secure for now, especially considering the non-volatility of my communications.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited October 2013
    "tyranny" is when they kick your door down at 3AM and drag you off to prison, not when they make you wear a seat belt. I think "petty annoyance" is a better term.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Here is the website of the new U.S. NSA one million square foot data center facility in Utah.

    http://nsa.gov1.info/utah-data-center/
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    As stated earlier, wire tapping and data storage are the easy parts.

    Sifting through raw data looking for meaningful patterns is the more difficult, time-consuming part of the task.

    Frankly, I think the growth of data collection by governments was predictable and is inevitable. It's just too irresistible a lure to not do it.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Here's why I think that mileage spying for taxes will quickly escalate to all kinds of other revenue drivers. Think back to the origination of the sales tax. It started big time as a nominal 1 or 2% fee to help fund the growth derived infrastructure costs after WW II. So where are we today? Most states charge a 5-8% base sales tax. Then the municipalities add surcharges on top of that at the register. The rationale for the increase is always along the lines of inflation has driven up costs. Of course they omit that a combination of economic growth and inflation over the years has already significantly driven up the price base and sales dollars the tax is applied to. Basically, when government finds a source to get more money, they milk it more and more until the public finally rises up. And don't forget there is a contingent in Washington that keeps talking about a national sales tax. We have already seen the proliferation of fees like garbage and sewer charges assessed on top of property taxes. Used to often be part of property tax, but now it's over and above, and better yet - it's no longer income tax deductible! I just see no way that the various levels of government will be able to leave the spy device as a strictly mileage tax. Not only will that portion of the base mileage charge continue to go up, but it will become the new camera system for law enforcement (strictly for your safety of course!) and then devolve into all sorts of other creative revenue enhancers and maybe allow a spin up of ad valorem vehicle tax as well. Just wait and see...
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I watched an interview recently with ex-Fed chairman Alan Greenspan. In the interview, he stated the most surprising thing he realized he had been wrong in believing during his tenure as Chairman of the Fed was that people/institutions will always do the things that are in their best interest.

    If he had ever looked at the statistics showing the number of deaths caused by not wearing seatbelts in car crashes, he would have realized just how wrong he was...
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    You may well be correct.

    The thing is, though, is this.... Taxes are going to go up, because the road systems are crumbling. The only real question is by what method the additional taxes are going to be based on...
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    edited October 2013
    "Is it fair for the hybrid/electric car owner to pay little to no road use fee?"

    That's a very valid (and maybe a bit ironic) point. I think it will end up with higher state license plate fees for everyone and possibly a national highways and infrastructure type charge each time a car is sold. It will also likely end up on all cars because it will be difficult for government to single out hybrid and other alternative vehicles after they so promoted them to the public. Government, business, individuals all have the common restraint of very short sighted decision making. It was the oil shortage. Now it's we're going to fix it all through fracking. Of course, I've been seeing more and more information that fracking sites are going dry much quicker than conventional drilling sites, so give it a decade or so and we'll be back on the oil shortage and alternative energy kick. Long term national energy plan balancing all forms of energy and multiple possible scenarios - not gonna happen!
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited October 2013
    Here's a look at the top 10 brands from Consumer Reports' 2013 Auto Reliability Survey

    1. Lexus

    2. Toyota

    3. Acura

    4. Audi

    5. Mazda

    6. Infiniti

    7. Volvo

    8. Honda

    9. GMC

    10. Subaru

    General Motors’ brands performed better than its domestic competitors. GMC is ranked 9th and Buick finished 12th.

    “All Buicks except the V6 LaCrosse were average or better. The only dark spots for Chevrolet are the Camaro and Cruze, both of which earned below-average reliability,” Consumer Reports said.

    GM's Cadillac brand fell the most in the survey, dropping 14 spots to No. 25 as its CUE infotainment system suffered from issues similar to Ford's. The GM brand also lost the benefit of older cars that typically have fewer problems than newer models.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Only big surprises here would be Volvo, Audi and perhaps Mazda, good for them, it seems really only the big two Japanese companies and their luxury brands are consistently at or near the top of consumer reports survey the rest seem to vary from year to year.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2013
    Well, I read that Mazda slipped a notch, but considering that Ford practically fell of the charts, maybe that means little.

    The next question is what is the percentage difference between top and bottom?
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,900
    edited October 2013
    That press release also included the news that they are no longer recommending the Camry. That's fairly big news in CR-land.
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  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2013
    "The decision could have a negative impact on the Camry’s ratings, as well as its position as America’s top-selling car. The sedan has been at the top for 11 years, but faces tough competition from the Ford Fusion, Honda Accord, and Nissan Altima. Michelle Krebs, an auto analyst with Edmunds.com, believes that Toyota can withstand the decision, but “the Camry is up against really stiff competition.” (inquisitr.com)

    Basically, they failed the IIHS small over-lap test.

    What got my attention was that the Prius v also failed. And that's another excuse I can use to keep driving our van, even though it's in the shop again, this time for a bad injector. :-)

    Hopefully the van (and/or Subie) will last until the 2015 Prii come out; rumor is that the v, if not all of them, will get some major refreshing. And hopefully Toyota's #2 CR reliability rating won't suffer (Lexus is #1).
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