Mazda Protegé

speedypt

Lost a drag race to a 2002 Chevy Avalanche 2500 HD. Go figure...he has a 500 cubic inch V8 and beat me soundly up to about 60 mph where I started to catch him. Never thought that nearly 7000 lb vehicle could move like that! It was a fun way to be humbled. Maybe I need to get that nitrous system installed. Just kidding! After talking to several "Nitrous Abusers" at my friends shop, I've decided against putting Trigger "on the bottle". The stock system will easily accomodate the nitrous system, but reliability will greatly suffer. Best case was made by a 1998 Nissan Sentra SE-R with the limited slip differential, he runs a 45 shot (45 addtl hp's) ZEX system, set up to kick in at wide open throttle. At 45,000 miles he had to buy a new tranny and limited slip differential. 10k later he blew the exhaust manifold which was weakened by the extreme temps of running the nitrous too often. Zex claimed that the system was not set up properly and the car was being run too lean. It just sounds too risky for me.

I guess I'll just have to save more money and get my 'Vette Z06 in 5 or 6 years. :-) Now that would be SERIOUS Vroom Vroom Zoom Zoom!!

Regards,

Pete

P.S. Still looking for Chicago Proowners to join Dale and me at the Auto Show on Feb 9th!

zoomzoom79

I learned not to race my Pro a while back At least not against any car that high or low end torque The Pro is a lover not a fighter.

the_big_h

forgot to ask you, you said you did an alignment out of your own pocket, did you do it at the dealer or at an independent shop? And how much did it cost (2-wheel or 4?)?

thanks!

jstandefer

I find myself in little off-the-line and highway races quite often. I never seem to have much of a problem, but I do choose my adversaries wisely (lightly modified Civic's and Integra's, V6 Mustangs, V6 sedans, etc.). I am actually quite impressed with 70mph+ acceleration. No need to drop out of 5th gear, just step on the gas and go.

However, I have a '99 ES which has the more rev-happy 1.8L and the lighter curb weight. I have driven the 2.0L Protege's and was not impressed at all with the engine or the heavier weight. The 2.0L seems more relaxed, but just a bit too relaxed. Plus, the extra weight is definitely felt at initial turn-in and transitions. From a performance standpoint, I feel the '99 and '00 ES's are better. From the daily driver standpoint, the quieter and more relaxed '01 and '02 models are better.

Has anyone bought or researched the performance intake and exhaust camshafts from Mazdaspeed and J-spec? The Mazdaspeed header also looks interesting, but that $700+ price doesn't seem worth it... Plus, being in California, I don't think any of those parts are legal...

mdaffron

What IS it about this car? It's like a Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde thing -- I get in it with the best of intentions, and by the time I'm five miles down the expressway, I'm in the Cannonball Run! As I exited from one expressway to another one yesterday afternoon, there was this guy in a 10-year-old Volvo who decided he was going to go 80 or so, so he could be the first car to our exit in about two miles. (It's a very popular exit, and the expressway to that point is flat and there's no place for cops to hide. Many people place the pedal to the metal in this stretch.)

Well, here I come. Deciding to blow his doors off, of course. By the time I passed him I was going 100 on the nose and I blew past him. You shoulda seen him look at me. It was a million-dollar look. Kinda like, "Gee dude, I thought I was the fastest speed demon on the road, what with my killer Volvo and all." I left him WAAYYYYY back there, and then, just for fun, drove on down to the next exit, making him wonder WHY the hell I did that. (Always keep 'em guessing, that's my motto.)

BTW, I had the opportunity to glance at my tach while I was going 100 -- I had mentioned I wanted to do that a while back. Now, this isn't precise -- but within 200 rpm or so -- in my 5-speed 1.8-liter ES (in fifth gear, of course) I was turning 5,000 rpm.

Zoomzoomzoom!!!

Meade

(Yeah zoomzoomzoom)

dinu01

I hear you Meade! Same here: everytime I get in I say to myself I will drive with the traffic flow, but 2 minutes into it I find myself at the head of the queue and still trying to catch upto the nextwave of cars in front.

ZOOM x 3!

Dinu

freddy_k

Wow, I didn't know so many people tried to pass these little sedans off as racers. Each to his own I guess. Anyway, After dealership hopping last night, I think the racers would be better off with the Sentra SE-R - it'll blow the doors of the Pro!
I did, however, find the Protege superior in comfort and quietness, with a softer suspension to absorb more bumps in the road then the Sentra GXE. It also had a more modern looking interior. I haven't decided what to buy yet, both cars have something slightly different to offer, yet they are very similar.

Cheers

dinu01

Thanx for the update! Try a PRO in ES (you'll love it!). Let us know what you chose at the end.

Dinu

PS: The PRO is a sleeper car...but not for long

vocus

The one street race I remember where the driver was physically mad was with an Integra in my Jetta 1.8T. He just thought he was hot because he was like a nose ahead of me going 80+mph (in a 55 zone, nonetheless). Well, I hadn't even stepped that hard on the gas. But then he asked for it. I floored my turbo and he was left like a freight train passing a hobo.

I used to win races sometimes in the 2001 ES when I had it, but it was more a "handling" thing than an outright power thing. The car doesn't really have much I don't think. The 2000 1.8 ES I test drive definitely felt peppier, even with automatic.

I had my 2001 ES up to 100 mph once. With automatic, I was running about 5000 rpm as well.

mdaffron

You sure you drove an ES, with a 5-speed transmission?

BTW, the Sentra is a great car, no doubt ... as long as you only have one other person to carry around! The back seat is a joke!

Meade

mdaffron

Don't even try to compare Proteges with automatics and manual trannies. There's simply no comparison. The manual is much faster. I know; I've driven both. You just don't have the control with the automatic.

Meade

zoomzoom79

Like I have said, my only problem with the Pro is the buzzy nature of the engine once you start going 75+. It's a big difference from our other cars which seem to live for 80-90MPH. If I were sitting in traffic all day I would definitely rather be in the Pro though.

mdaffron

http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=37788&a=a&bt=tribut

Meade

mdaffron

What trim level and transmission is your Protege?

Meade

chicagopro

Thanks for the info on the oil changes...although now I may be a little more confused than ever

Since I have low mileage but do pretty hard driving (lots of stop-and-go; sitting in traffic), I guess I'll err on the side of more often rather than less.

chicagopro

GREAT story!

chicagopro

Did get up to about 95 once; not racing anybody, just trying to keep my rightful place in the left lane

Not something I would do often, though.

freddy_k

It was the ES for sure, and automatic, but I'm comparing all of them auto to auto. I'm testing them all in the highest models, in the Sentras case the highest model under the R. The car is mostly for the wife and for when my (5 spd) Miata is just to inconvenient. She doesn't care much what she drives as long as it has certain features like sunroof and abs, so I pretty much get to choose the car. She's willing to learn standard, but I think having one auto car in the household is a good idea, (any thoughts on that?) although I really don't like automatics at all.

zoomzoom79: You should not get annoyed, very few 4 bangers, especially in these price ranges, are not buzzy at high speeds. Go drive an Escort ZX2 and you'll really understand buzzy!

BTW- the traffic on this thread is amazing, Mazda must have very enthusiastic customers!

chicagopro

Interesting article, but...

A 'Secret Hideout' minivan targeted to 20-somethings????

Can you say 'oxymoron,' boys and girls?

jstandefer

In the 4-cyl compact car market, very few cars can keep up with the Protege's balance of acceleration, handling, and braking. Will the Protege win all the stoplight-to-stoplight drag races? No. But put the race on a windy mountain or coastal road and it's a totally different story.

The Sentra SE-R requires a professional driver to keep it on the road when things get twisty. But, a Sentra SE-R comparison against the Protege ES isn't quite fair. Try the SE-R vs. MP3 on for size. Again, the MP3 won't win any drag races against the SE-R, but when twisty roads come to bear, the MP3's much superior suspension will blow the doors off the SE-R. When it comes to the Sentra GXE vs. Protege ES, I still feel the Protege comes up on top. Though I still much prefer the 1.8L engine compared to the 2.0L.

It seems the 2.0L has more low-end grunt, but this is offset by the heavier weight of the cars they sit in. The 1.8L is certainly much happier beyond 4,000rpm, and it is in this range where the 1.8L really shines. Once past 4,000rpm (80mph with the 5-spd), the engine seems to get quieter and smoother. The car's suspension finally finds its sweet spot, smoothing out the road and providing firm control. The steering is perfectly weighted as the variable-assist pretty much eliminates all power assist.

I, unfortunately, can say that I physically know the '99 Pro ES has a speed governor that cuts off power at 119mph. Too bad. It felt like it could probably redline in top gear, probably at 130mph... oops...

mazdafun

They just bring out the kid in you.

And, as vocus already mentioned, it's more of a handling thing than straight-line speed with the Pro. Throw that Sentra through a bunch of hairpin turns against a Protege and you'll get the idea quickly enough.

mazdafun

...not that I know of anyway.

I too usually get in with the best of intentions to just go with the flow. But the Pro just makes it too easy (and fun) to be in the top 5th percentile, especially on winding roads.

jstandefer

Does anyone have any information on the Mazdaspeed series? I know there will be:

Mazdaspeed 3 (323/Protege)
Mazdaspeed 5 (MX-5/Miata)
Mazdaspeed 6 (Atenza/6)
Mazdaspeed 8 (RX-8)

More specifically, does anyone have any information regarding the Mazdaspeed 3? More than likely, I would expect it to be a turbocharged 4-cyl. I hope they don't use the 2.0L. The 1.8L would be much better suited for a turbo. I can't imagine the 2.3L will fit under the hood without serious chassis modifications. I would imagine it would have the MP3's suspension, but further refined. A 6-spd or 5-spd transmission? Dealers I have talked to talk about a late summer/early fall release.

newcar31

Hmmm...Well let me say this, I still wouldn't trade my ES for the SE-R. I'm not one to value looks over performance (I used to have an LX 5.0L notchback mustang which wasn't the prettiest thing on the road) but the poor styling of the Sentra IMO far outweighs it's straight line performance advantage. The road tests from major publications have come up with some pretty unimpressive numbers for the SE-R considering its power. The twist beam rear axle in the Sentra is an unforgivable cost saving measure. The interior on the Spec-V is hideous. I had high expectations for the SE-R and was starting to wonder if I should have waited until I got the full scoop from numerous publications. All in all, I find the SE-R to be a disapointment as it posesses no where near the performance that Nissan was claiming before it's launch. Check this article out, I think it sums the SE-R up pretty well.

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/archives/features/feature01_1201.jsp

newcar31

Why would the 1.8L be better suited to a turbo?

Sporin

Even with all the rumors flying around, I still doubt we'll see a bigger engine in a wagon shaped 323/Protege until the next generation of cars comes along. By that I mean the Focus based Pros. There MIGHT be another limited edition MP? car like the MP3 with a bit more power, but with a compeletely new car coming in 2003, why should Mazda bother fiddling with the Pros now, when they are finally selling really well? Where's the incentive for them?

That's just my guess and opinion.

jstandefer

newcar31- A turbocharger is best suited for high rpm, a place that the 2.0L doesn't seem to like as much as the 1.8L. If you are going to put a turbocharger on an engine to produce high-rpm power, you better put it on an engine that likes to rev.

Sporin- Its all about bragging rights. The rivalry between Mazda and Nissan is starting to rear its head once again... 350Z vs. RX-8, SE-R vs. MP3, Altima vs. 6, etc. The MP3 has already been rated by many of the magazines as the better car... Mazda wants to really rub it in Nissan's face with an even more decisive blow. Plus, it definitely helps Mazda's Zoom-Zoom image!

tomciviletti

I've been away a few days, so here are responses to several posts.

As a voice of wisdom [or old age], street racing is dangerous to yourself and others. Zooming is fun, and you may be a great driver, but you don't know what kind of nutty jerk is in the other car.

I haven't had my '99es back to the dealer. I do the maintainence required in the manual. Use syntec oil, techron gas additive once a year, and had synthetic gear oil put in at 20k miles [shifting is a bit smoother]. No problems past the plastic buzzes that drive me nuts.

On the 1.8/2.0L comparison: the 2.0 is longer stroke. This tends to increase lowend torque, but decrease revving ability, as mentioned. If Mazda had increased the bore instead [which may not be easy w/o a new block design] the 2.0 would have kept the 1.8's ability to rev.

newcar31

Willingness to rev and powerbands: You can adjust these things with cam timing. Mazda was going for low end torque over high rpm power with the 2.0L. If they turbocharged the 2.0L, they could easily and would have to adjust the timing and compression. The 2.0L isn't THAT stroked. Look at the VW/Audi 1.8T. That engine doesn't rev worth a crap. It starts running out of steam WELL before redline. It all depends on how the engine is tuned and how big the turbo is.

dinu01

"In the 4-cyl compact car market, very few cars can keep up with the Protege's balance of acceleration, handling, and braking. Will the Protege win all the stoplight-to-stoplight drag races? No. But put the race on a windy mountain or coastal road and it's a totally different story." right on!

Dinu

rbrooks3

Well, looks like I'm NOT getting my car today. Turns out the dealer that was to get the car to MY dealer yesterday didn't. I understand that, what I am miffed at is the lack of courtesy on my dealer's part to call and let me know. here I think I'm getting the car tonight and I call THEM at 2:00 to confirm and have them tell me they don't even have it there yet.

vocus

My 1.8T runs pretty well up to about 6700 rpm (redline is 6500) in first gear with no problems. Also, power drops off at about 6000 or so rpm, not too far from redline. My ES's power was dead at start-off until about 3000, and dropped off around 5000.

At least the 1.8T has a flat torque curve. It's also been rated one of the 10 best engines by Ward's Automotive.

vocus

If you are that miffed, tell them to stuff their Pro where the road doesn't zoom.

rbrooks3

Well, here's my .02 I tested each of them and the Saturn SL2 before deciding on the Prs ES. I was looking for a daily driver to replace my Porsche 944 of the last 7 years. So, I have been used to a firm and reponsive ride, and while none of them could replace my 944, I wanted something that was not completely boring. Here's my opinion:

The Saturn was the easiest to rule out. The interior is beyond stak and covered in single tone cheap looking and feeling plastic. The exterior screams old man. The engine is very rough, although it does have a nice torque band. One thing the Saturn has that no one in this price range has is traction control. It's included in the ABS option. One other plus is better gas mileage. It has NO sporting pretensions though. The ride is very soft and wallowy. Cost was also high as everything on the Saturn is an add on from power windows to a rear spoiler and everything in between. I decided against it because it was so bland.

The Civic is nice, but even in EX version (the Si is way more pricey and so I don't believe a good comparison) the car lacks the harder edge they had before. I owned a hatchback Si in 1990 for 2 years. The new ones have more room, but the handling is gone in favor of more comfort. Also, and this mattered to me, my GOD you see them everywhere! Common is too common a word. It was a nice car but there was no soul.

The Sentra, I tested the SER (not Spec V. The rear seat is very small. There is also no ltd slip unless you pay more for the Spec V. The car handled very well, but the interior colors were, well, a bit ugly to me. ALso, there is no nice low interest like Mazda has now at 3.9% for up to 5 years. That having been said, I might have gone with it if price was equal to the Pro ES. It would have been close.

The Pro was a big surprise to me. I went for the test drive, but honestly, I had no intention of considering it above the SER. But, when I started checking the ES out seriously, it does impress. First, the interior is VERY easily the best of the bunch. To me, it's a poor man's A4. The steering wheel and interior colors are first rate. 4 whl discs, 16" alum rims right from the factory with 50 series tires? Very nice. There is also less dive under braking than I had expected. The ride is firm and controlled and body lean is minimal. How minimal? Drive the Pro ES then the Civic and Saturn and try not to get seasick! The ES comes with cruise and all the amenities. I added only the 1ES package and got the ABS I wanted, moonroof and carpet set. I can't wait to take delivery, hopefully tomorrow and I can hooestly say that for the money, I got the absolute best car available for me.

Drive them all and go with the one that feels best to you. But, if you intend any fun driving, I'd be surprised if you don't go with the Pro.

Ron B.

newcar31

I'm not saying the 1.8T is a bad engine...far from it. It's just that it's tuned for torque and drivability, like you said. Your 180 hp version might be different, because I drove a 150hp GTI 1.8T and it was awfully weak after 5000 rpm. Remember, if your getting close to peak torque at 1750 rpm, the engine isn't going to like to rev. The 1.8T has a small turbo that spools quickly and takes a nap later in the rev range as opposed to the old mitsubishi 2.0 turbo that was weak at first and then turned into a screaming banshee all the way till redline.

freddy_k

I appretiate everyones opinions. SInce I already have a performance car I don't really need it in this one.
The interior quality of both the Protege and Sentra are pretty equal, but Mazda put more effort into making it look fancier. The back seat is no concern, as long as they fold down. The 16" rims that come with the Protege just mean more cash spent on tires, so it's not a selling point for me either. I do appretiate the higher performance however... I think I'll have to test them again, but it looks like either will do the job. Hmmmm, maybe a flip of the coin...

vocus

The new 180-hp engine must be different then. I don't know, because I never drove the 2.0 Mitsu turbo or the old 150-hp turbo from VW. But Edmund's said the powerband is more usable in the 180-hp version, so maybe that's what they meant. Go and test drive a new 180-hp version and let me know what you think.

vocus

Recently, there were some recalls on the new Sentras. I don't know what they were, but you might wanna check it out.

I liked the Protege better because of the styling, the longer warranty (50K as opposed to 36K), and more interior room. Also, it's cheaper a little for what you get than the Sentra is, I think.

Since you don't want the 16-inch tires, you might wanna check out the LX model of the Protege. It comes with everything the ES does but the sporty touches like the 4-wheel disc brakes, 16-inch tires, silverish interior trim, and sportier suspension tuning.

newcar31

I don't know for sure, but given the fact that your 1.8T has a small turbo and a fat torque curve, I can't imagine it being that crazy as the revs climb. The mitsu 2.0L turbo pulled harder and harder all the way to redline. I know that the 1.8T pulls less and less as the revs build. Like I said before, if the torque is there at 1750 rpm like your 1.8T, it should start to drop off well before redline. You can't have your cake and eat it too in this case---unless you have two turbos, one big one and one small one. I think you need to drive a car that rips harder and harder all the way till redline....for example: Integra GS-R, Eclipse turbo, Civic Si, RX7, etc. I wouldn't put your Jetta in that class.

protege_fan

In Canada, the ES does not come standard w/ rear disc brakes. That is part of the GT package. Also, you don't have to get the 16" tires on the ES in Canada. That is also part of the GT package. Be sure to check out the options.

Please don't flip a coin! I think you'll have to check financing options and just see what YOU like best. They are both really great cars, but I personally feel the Pro is the better of the two cars. If awards and accolades mean anything to you, the Pro ES was given the AJAC (Canadian Automotive Journalists) best new compact car award.

vocus

I can't really speak from experience on turbos, as the 1.8T is the first one I have ever driven or owned. I do know that compared to any other car I have owned (including a 3.8 Bonneville) it has breathtaking power. I can feel the car pushing me back in the seat, a feeling I never had before. I drove a Mustang once with the 4.6, and it didn't pull as hard (by the seat of my pants, that is) as my Jetta does. And I would drive the other cars you mentioned, but I can't drive a stick shift.

Also, I do notice some immediate lag when stepping on the gas from a stop. When I floor the pedal, it takes like .5 seconds for full power to take hold. But boy when it does, look out! It's hard to navigate in tight traffic sometimes, because I will want a little burst of speed as I stab the pedal. But the 1.8T doesn't seem to know that the words "little" and "speed" came work in the same sentence.

freddy_k

I'm not really going to flip a coin. Tonight I'm going back to a different Mazda dealership. The saleswoman at the last was way to pushy, and only told me what she thought I wanted to hear, and was happy to mislead, exaggerate, and lie to get a sale. Too bad for her, because there is a good chance that she lost a sale.

protege_fan

Where in Canada are you?

elec3

I've had reasonable luck with my stock Pro5 against some lightly modded (can't use the word I want here) Civics and Cavaliers and cars like that. People want to race often just because the Pro5 looks like it's a...uhh....ahem, Eurosport perhaps. I've also gotten worked by a silver WRX and taught a few lessons by people driving modded Chevy 1 ton trucks and even a friend in his 1983 Chevy Silverado Blazer. The Pro simply can't compete with a large V8 off the line. The torque is NOT there, even if you've got a multiple ton weight advantage. You may catch up if the Protege's 2.0 breathes and revs better than a fat V8, but you'll look dumb getting smoked by something that should be towing a pontoon boat.

Sometimes I get mad that Mazda deprived American Protege5 owners of the 170hp J-spec engine and AWD that the home market (Japanese) version of the Pro5 gets. That would make this a much more attractive little car IMO. Of course, there are enough custom auto shops in town here that I could get there or further if I had the cash, but for now I don't.

theparallax

Hey guys, here's something I posted over at ProtegeClub.com:

-------------------
OK, just got back from the dealer. The dealer's 30K service is a whopping $415!!! I said NO. All I told them to do was everything that is stated in the owner's manual, excluding oil and oil filter (which I'll do at 31K myself, last time I changed it was at 28K).

What they did:
Dealer's "4-Cyl Tuneup"
-Check all lights, horn, and turn signals
-Check wipers and wiper blades
-Visually inspect belts and hoses
-Visually inspect battery and cables
-Check air filter
-Check all fluid levels
-Check tires for wear and pressure
-Visually inspect brakes
-Visually inspect exhaust
-Visually inspect undercarriage

I also told them to replace the air filter, spark plugs, and lube locks & hinges. (As stated by the manual)

Total Cost: $91.74

They told me I needed new front brakes (~$190) and new wiper blades (~$45). I said I'll do those myself...their prices seem WAYYYY to high. I mean come on, $45 for wiper blades? Go down to Pep Boys and buy a set for $20!!!

-------------------

Also while I was there, I went and test drove a Midnight Blue Protege5. What a nice car!!! Feels very solid and stiff compared to my 99LX. I sat down inside and we started talking numbers. They didn't want to budge from MSRP!!! They were going to charge me almost $20K for a base Pro5+ABS/SAB+Moonroof+Dealer Add-ons!!! I said NO WAY. They tried to lowball me on my trade-in...first offerend me $7000 then changed it to $6000 after I told them about Edmunds.com's TMV. JACKASSES! To anyone in the Panama City, FL area, AVOID BUZZ LEONARD LIKE THE PLAGUE!!! This is not the first bad experience I've had with them either. The manager was downright cocky. I told him that 'people are stupid for buying at MSRP'. I grabbed my cell phone and looked up Edmunds TMV on it and he said 'Why don't you look up your car on there too?' I should have walked out RIGHT THEN.

rbrooks3athome

30k and they said you needed front brakes?! I can't believe that. There is no way the fronts should wear that quickly unless the rears have never been adjusted properly. There's no reason at all even with spirited driving that the fronts should last less than 45k or more. I mean, even the fronts on my ancient MGB last for almost 60k even with some track time!

newcar31

If it were my car, I'd probably change the coolant, transmission fluid, and fuel filter too.

IMO, $91 is a severe rip off for what they did.

Here is what that 30K "tuneup" should have cost:

Air Filter: $15
Spark Plugs: est. $1.50 x 4, $6
Can of white lithium grease: est. $5

TOTAL: $27---How could it be $91? There is very little labor involved.

Then the sales manager tells you "Why don't you look your car up on there too?"-----What a Jackass!! I don't know what I would have done.

eludwig

Does anyone have details and/or links for the next generation Protege?

- What motors will be offered?
- When will it be available?
- Any trim level details?

I hope it doesn't borrow much from Ford.

theparallax

I knew I was going to get ripped off regardless, but I think $91 is better than $415. I'll probably get a friend to help me changed the tranny fluid, coolant, and fuel filter. I know someone that knows a good deal about cars, I'll ask him he the brakes really are worn down.

On the maintenance checklist from the dealer, it says the pads are worn down to 15%. I don't see how in the world they are worn down that low; the car stops just fine.

Overall I'm just pretty pissed at this dealership. If there were another dealership within 30 mins driving range, I'd tell Buzz Leonard Chrysler Jeep Mazda Mitsubishi to shove it you know where. Unfortunately, I have little spare time on my hands and I don't feel like driving ~2 hours to get to the next Mazda dealer for maintenance.

theparallax

I forgot to add, this dealership is also a "Five-Star" Chrysler dealership. I don't know how they rose to that position by ripping people off and giving really bad service.