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Comments
You also have the 1.8L in your Protege which is lighter and likes to rev more than the 2.0L that's in my Protege. And yes, my Protege is a 5-speed. There is no way I would buy a car with the limited power of a Civic or a Protege with an automatic. The only automatics we have had are our Lexus, 01 Accord V6, 00 Silverado with the 5.3L V8, and a 93 Acura Vigor.
newcar: Did you ever think that the dealer didn't tell you Honda's didn't have a tendency to rust because he wanted to sell you the $1000 rust protection plan?
The suspension of the Pro does seem up to doing 100MPH+, but the engine doesn't want to keep up. And doing 90MPH+ isn't an accomplishment because our 89 Civic wagon did the same with 4 people in the car and only 92HP.
Like I said, I'm not saying that the Protege is a bad car. I guess that I'm just not in love with it enough not to see where it's opportunities for improvement are.
And a car going 90mph, even with 92hp, is not a big accomplishment, Cindy. Any car will get up to that speed given enough time and pedal.
My Civic had no problem doing 120 while I was playing with that Maxima. Why was I "playing" with a Maxima in a Civic? Cause I have no problem wringing every last ounce of performance out of it. Most people don't do that to their cars for fear of something breaking. I maintain my cars to where I have confidence that it won't. By the way I was in FRONT of the Maxima.
The only mods are a flowmaster muffler and stock size 5 spoke Isuzu Impulse wheels.
The only issue I really have with the Pro is it's engine. Coming from a small revvy engine in my Civic the Pro doesn't have the same love for the upper rpms. That's a bummer for a car that's otherwise a joy to drive. That's the most glaring difference between the Civic and Pro though. It make the Pro the choice for around town errands and the Civic the road car for it's mileage and smoothness at high speed.
We obviously have a different idea of high speed too. In Ga everyone does 80 so that's no big deal. Most of the "fast" cars are doing 90-95. In daytime driving on the open road, most "cruisers" are doing very close to or over 100mph. The Pro's engine does not make very sporting sounds at those speeds nor does it feel like it's having fun. The Civic on the other hand is still building toward it's torque peak and actually becoming MORE responsive as the speed rises.
That has been my problem for a while when people talk about "low end power". I want most of my power up top where it can be used at speed. What's the point of having the torque peak at 2000-3000 rpm when the engine is revving past 3000 rpm at 60mph in 5th gear?
Vocus I'll answer that since I'm here...
When we bought the Pro we were going to the Honda dealer for a Civic. We had a 2001 EX-V6 Accord that we were tired of. The automatic did not like having 2 different drivers with totally different driving styles. It's supposed to have a logic chip or something and it did not like when we drove it back to back. So we got rid of it for a 5 speed. We bought the Pro for what it is a nice relatively inexpensive sporty sedan. We paid 15,200 for the car. After tax, gap, and fees we walked out with a check for $3000 and financed 19,000 with 0% financing and paid off a credit card. THAT'S wy we have a Pro. Were going to pay it down until we have no negative and buy a 6 speed CL after they've been out for a while. She has never said that the Pro sucked I don't think. It's just that we've owned countless Honda products that have served us very well and she has the allegiance also.
I've owned a couple Mazdas. A 1986 RX7 that was bone stock. Light little car that did an indicated 145 one day on premium gas while I was racing a Maxima. It didn't take well to regular though. It was OK except for a strange temp spike on warmup and it broke 2 door handles on the outside.
On the other hand, I had a white 10th Anniversary Edition that felt much slower and blew a 5th gear sychro and had a weird imbalance in the engine.
I got rid of it for a 1991 MR2 Turbo....Now that was a fast reliable car. Not a single non maintenance problem for 70,000 miles. Boy did that engine sound great with the Turbo spooling up inches behind my head. It would do close to 150. Had to use all of it running from a modified Miata one day.
Traded that for a Vigor. Did 125 and higher "playing" with a Ford probe between Chatanooga and Knoxville. Top speed was right aroud 140ish. No problems with that car while I had it.
After that was a 1991 300zx Twin Turbo. Quickie fast. Had to sell it cause I couldn't keep it out of triple digit speeds. There's a long story to go with this car the most important of which is that I got it for $5500.
This is just a drop in the bucket but I'll just say Zoom has a little experience with high speed vehicles and driving and 5 speed transmissions so if you see a black Protege with a brunette driving it and a USMC sticker on the back, don't mess with it unless you plan on running it up to the limit.
One of the reason why the 'zoom zoom' slogan fits the Protege well is that they have quick accelerations from a stop, thanks to its broad torque band. Mazda tuned the engine so that it is FUN to do quick bursts here and there on city streets, not for top-end speed.
here's a little something to look at, a dyno chart for a 2.0L Protege, taken from protege5online:
http://www.protege5online.com/For_Sale_Page/Bosal/Bosal_Pics/bosal_pics.html
notice the abundance of torque up front, THAT is the ZOOM-ZOOM factor
I'm not aware of any rust issues with the Pro and they ceratinly don't have the rep for being rust prone. Then again, not as many people own them up here as they do Honda's. Our own 2000 ES, 5spd hasn't a spot of rust on the body or underbody, but I am a total anal-retentive nut concerning maintenance so..........
Okay, zoomzoom, you make the comment that, "but we all know the Civic would win any contest about reliability, economy, durability, and most performance tests."
I can't say how strongly i disagree with those comments. Reliability ratings over the last 3 years show that the Protege has had far fewer reliability issues than the Civic. Look it up in Consumer reports, the LemonAid guides, and pretty much most detailed automotive information journals. The vaunted Honda quality has been taking a few beatings the last few years with all of their de-contenting.
Economy: Okay, the Civic gets better gas mileage. Mainly cause the engine produces far less torque at lower rev bands used in average driving and slightly less horsepower. The VVT-i helps a little but not as much as most people think. Honda's don't depreciate as quickly, but they are far more expensive initially for a comparably equipped model and they don't offer competitive financing. that makes it about even. Also, Honda's are more expensive to maintain, although their parts are cheaper and more accessible than Mazda parts. As a side note, the salespeople, dealers and mechanics are typically arrogant and treat customers with condencension. I say about even.
Durability: Don't think you or I can prove this point as i don't believe any hardcore data reflects this. Also, it really greatly depends on who the owner was. Sure, you see lots of old Honda's out there. I see old Mazda's too, but remember that Honda outsells Mazda like 10 to 1...you're going to see more Honda's.... i see a lot of Ford Tempo's out there too. Not to mention the reliable Pontiac Sunfire....
Performance Tests: This one is my favorite. Please show me the performance test where the Honda will beat the Pro. In acceleration I would say even. They use a different torque band and the pro has the advantage up to about 5000rpm. After that, advantage Civic. Not the case though if you compare the 1.8L Pro.... A Civic will not beat the 1.8L Pro simple as that.... Handling Test: Not close and you know it. There isn't a car in this class that handles like the Pro. Remember, i used to own a Civic SiR so I think i know.... From a performance standpoint, the Honda manual gearbox is simply unmatched. The best I have ever felt. Great shifter and clutch engagement.
Anyway, i could go on..... Honda's are good car's. So are Protege's. I have owned 2 Honda's in my lifetime and encouraged my mother to buy an Accord, which she did. However, if you are comparing the current model of the Civic, weak anemic engine unless you get the Si, softened suspension with the non-wishbone and almost Toyota Corolla like handling....against the current model Protege, I'm sorry, the Pro simply wins hands down.
Honda really doesn't make em like they used too...at least not the Civic. Now, slide an S2000 my way and let's talk.
A Protege isn't faster than the Civic even from a stop. The Protege 2.0L has been tested at 9.0 .. a Civic EX is 8.4. And the Civic's margin only increases as the revs get higher and it gets in it's "sweet spot". And if you look at the dyno you can see the Protege's torque dropping off instead of building. At 4000 RPM a Protege has reached it's torque peak while the Civic is still building up to it's peak.
Why would you want to do quick bursts on city streets? It's much more fun to do quick bursts on an open highway where you can actually wind the engine up instead of speeding up then immediately slowing. I bet your brakes are mad at you. And anyways, on the highway you will be going faster than 60MPH so downshifting in the 2.0L Protege is almost pointless because it's already about to hit it's peak.
didn't you read the spec? the POWER peak (what makes car go fast) of the Protege is now at 6000rpm, which is a very good spot given its 6500 redline. The 4000rpm is the TORQUE peak. Put it another way, HP is important at high speed, and torque is important for quick acceleration, and I think Mazda did a decent job of gearing the Protege to have plenty pull and decent top-end power.
And Civics may be more expensive but if you don't consider the 0.0% (which not every Protege owner qualifies for) then it's not that big of a difference considering the Civic's added resale value a few years down the road. Now with the 0.0% then yes the Civic is more expensive but to 300,000 people a year it's worth it. 5 times as many people buy the Civic as the Protege and that's amazing how many used Civics are out there which also command a premium over other small cars. We just sold a 99 Civic Si with 25,000 miles for $15,998 within a few hours of being on the lot. Guess what invoice was on a new Civic Si back in 99?
And it's still yet to be shown how a Civic is more expensive to maintain. The Civic is Intellichoice's top pick for value and that includes maintenance, insurance, and depreciation. And I don't know what Honda dealers you go to but we've had good experiences with all but one Honda dealer in this area. I was in and out with my Coupe in about 2 hours and that was October of 00 when the 01's had just hit the lot. Besides, it's your choice what dealer you buy your car from. It's definitely not a reason to buy a Protege over a Civic.
And how many Ford Tempos do you see with all the hubcaps, spotless interiors, without blue smoke, and paint that isn't falling off the car as it goes down the street? I guess since Protege's are so rustproof they sell all 59,999 where you are because here Civics are definitely in the majority.
Performance: See above. Or just look at page 138-139 of the June 2001, volume 46 #12 of Car & Driver.
Weak and anemic? The Protege has more engine to work with and still only has 3 more HP. And it's not even like the 3 more HP gives it an advantage. It just uses more gas.
And no, the Civic doesn't haven't double wishbones anymore but the Protege never had them in the first place. So maybe, like I've said, you should go out and buy a 93 Civic EX. It's faster than the Pro, gets better gas mileage, AND it has that all important front and rear double wishbone setup. The 01 Civic EX and the Protege ES pull the same numbers on the skidpad and that's with the Civic's smaller tires and "softened" suspension.
And since we've talked about everything else let's talk about safety. The Civic gets a 5 star rating ... what does the Protege get? Guess we need to add safety to the list of the things that the Civic does better.
Again I'll add this disclaimer: "I'm not saying I don't love my Protege, because I do. I just realize it's opportunity areas." But I also realize the Civic's. It could have a more distinctive design. It could have 4 wheel disc brakes. It could've kept it's front and rear wishbones. It could be cheaper. But you know what, that's not what the car was mean to do. It was mean to be safe, reliable, somewhat sporty transportation...which it is. That's why over 75% of Civics are LX automatics instead of EX 5-speeds. But that's also why they sell 300,000 of them without giving them away for below invoice and 0.0% interest.
I read an article in Sport compact car. They said that alot of cars makers purposfully play with the gearing to get a better 0-60 time to look good for the magazines. The problem with this is that gearing from 3-5th may not be as ideal requiring more frequent gear changes to stay in the engines ideal power band. Protege's 0-60 times are hurt becuase you hit 57mph at 6500 RPM in 2nd gear. You lose probably .4 to .6 seconds in the gear change. There is alot more to a car than numbers if you ask me. 2 years ago the Protege was voted best small car by car and driver...it wasn't the fastest or it didn't have the top scores in the handling tests (but was close) but still came out on top. Performance tests should not be that important when buying an economy car. No one buys one of these cars to race Ferrari's.
I'm not pulling all this stuff out of a hat. Apparantly you live in Atlanta. Of course you are not going to see any rusted cars, you shouldn't. In Canada were there is alot of salt to eat away at cars, Honda's rust bad. Alot of people have agreed with me on this point in the last 40 points.
I don't feel I'm Protege biased. I never said a Protege was more reliable than a Civic. But it's not far behind. It's a much more exciting car to drive though and it's different which apeals to most people here. When I bought my Protege, I actually wanted to get a Nissan Sentra SE. I was more biased to the Nissan but 12% finance rate was tough to swallow so I tested the Protege and found it very similar except with more room. Also tried the Focus ZX3 and Escort ZX2 but they weren't my cup of tea. I'll be the first to tell you that I have the urge to trade my Protege in for a Subaru WRX becuase it's a way better car in pretty much evey way. But that would be a bad diecision financially at the moment.
Actually the Protege is the 3rd best selling car in Canada or Quebec...not sure which one. I read an article about it not too long ago. Either way, that says alot. No one here says the the Protege is a better car than the Civic, neither do I. The Protege is better for ME than a Civic, but obviously not for you. We are all entitled to our own opinions.
Civic: Better at higher RPMs on the highway, horrible financing (in Canada at least), better fuel consumption, that little "H" on the hood, history of good reliability and long car life, etc...
PRO: better in town, on twisty roads, firmer/sportier suspension (some equipped with crappy RE92s), not so great on the highway, less mpg, better interior (ES in black sport cloth is superb IMO), more features for the price, older 1.8 better for 5spd though, good financing, etc...
If there's anything **NEW** that has not been mentionned in the last 3 weeks on this board on their comparison, feel free to add it.
Otherwise, could we PLEASE change the topic; it's getting a little annoying reading the same thing day in and day out. I'll start:
I LOVE the PROs "stiff" power steering. I tested it today at 70-90mph on the highway and it felt great. Same can be said for parking lot maneuvres, even though some have complained it is too hard to turn the steering wheel (my mom for example), while I really like it. Good to have some input and "feel" into it.
I think some have already started this discussion either here or at our other site. How do others feel?
Dinu
I could debate with you about sports and politcs until my face turns blue but this isn't the time and place for it. Most Americans are very Ignorant when about things that happen outside the USA. Trust me, there is alot of Propeganda that your government dishes out and we'll leave it at that.
I don't know if responsiveness is the same thing as what you're talking about, Dinu, but if it is, I agree 100%.
The day I bought the Protege, I test drove two other cars (which I will NOT name right now, so as to avoid nine million posts on why the torque differential and exhaust displacement on those two other cars would have made them superior to the Protege).
As I said to Speedypt a couple of weeks ago, of the three, the Protege was the only one that I felt like *I* was actually driving...hard for me to explain the phenomenon, because I'm basically ignorant about cars, but I think you know what I'm talking about. Feel the same way about the two cars I've had as loaners since owning the Protege.
Different aspects of different cars are important to different people.
Gee, last time I checked was 5 seconds ago because the 2002 Consumer Reports Buyers Guide is sitting right in front of me---and it's not even the "Protege Lovers" edition. The 2002 Civic's predicted reliability scores a solid white circle, which is in the middle of 5 ratings--AVERAGE. This score "warrants caution" according to Consumer Reports. The 2002 Protege gets the best possible score-EXCELLENT. Predicted reliability is based on Consumer Reports annual reliability survey data.
Also, I don't recall seeing a 5sp 2.0L ES Sedan ever being tested 0-60 in any of the major mags. I have subscriptions to C&D, Motor Trend, Automobile and Road & Track. None of those mags have ever tested a 5sp 2.0L sedan 0-60. I know this because I keep every mag that has anything written in it about the Protege. Where did you find your 0-60 data?
And yes, Hondas have a rust problem. You've only seen one with rust huh? I see tons of them every single day. I see Accords as new as the 94-97 generation that have HOLES in the rear quarter panels. Considering that Hondas have had this problem for a long time and that they all rust in the same spot (rear quarter panels behind wheel), I feel that it is completely un-acceptable that Honda has not addressed this issue. A 97' model year car should NOT have rust on it...not even a 94' should have rust on it.
Tires are #1: Your tires **MUST** be of exactly equal pressure so the car feels planted on the road at 90mph (140-145 km/h).
14" are acceptable, but 15" are recommended. Sorry, haven't driven 16" equipped cars for long trips, so I cannot comment, although I am certain it should only help that "being planted" feeling on dry roads.
Another tires fact in my books at least is that if I plan to drive above 130km/h (80mph), I have to drive for 30+ mins for the tires to warm up. Tire temp is paramount in handling. That's why you see F1 cars with tire heat shields on them during qualifying so it keeps the tires temp at their best. The more you drive at high speeds, the better the tires are. I'll often stop 1 hr into the trip to adjust tire pressure and continue the journey so I can drive faster. My record is 4:20 hrs with the Civic, 4:30 with the Tercel and just under 5:00 in the PRO (don't wanna over-rev it - first new car so I take good care of it, plus it doesn't like anything above 4000RPMs).
There is a difference in handling that can be felt when you have that perfect tire temp and pressure, where the car feels like it's on rails, as we like to say over here in the PRO forum
As for Meade's spoiler comment, having driven an 89 Tercel with 13" tires HB (no spoiler), a 93 Civic HB with 14" aftermarket rims with performance tires (no spoiler), and now the 01 PRO ES with 15" Potenzas with a spoiler, I am more that just pretty sure that fine-looking wing is all for show and serves no real design purpose.
Plus that stiff steering wheel helps
Dinu
As many of you know, we do have a Comparisons - Sedans vs. Sedans board where a dedicated discussion comparing these two vehicles would be most welcome.
If anyone agrees and wants to pursue this line of conversation, please follow that link and fire one up!
Thanks.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
Browntrout: "Most Americans are very ignorant when about things that happen outside the USA". Oh, so sad, yet so true.
Browntrout and I don't mean it to be disrespectful, but a large # of Americans are very ignorant about anything outside of their little world that affects them directly. If they don't see it, it doesn't exist.
One final comment: Try watching BBC World over CNN: I find it "refreshing"
Browntrout: I have an ExpressVu dish and was channel surfing this afternoon and I saw on TQS and TVA that ordeal on the Metropolitaine/40. Sad to see those pictures with the paramedics and cops trying to bring their colleague back to life. Reminded me of something else. Another pointless act. I don't get those people.
Dinu
I suggest to check your tires are set at 32 PSI if you have the Bridgestones Poortenzas R92 at 15". Check it after the car sat still for at least 4 hrs, preferably overnight. It's VERY important to get an accurate cold temp tire reading! Drive it to your closest gas station and using your own air gauge adjust the pressure. Take it for a spin on the highway.
Is that what you were reffering to?
Dinu
fxashun "Mazda Protegé vs. Nissan Sentra vs. Honda Civic" Feb 28, 2002 5:08pm
There are a few things that come to mind, anything from a worn-out shock absorber (though for a 2000 it seems very unlikely), a bent rim (had that and above 30mph it was pretty much undriveable), unequal tire pressure (though you stated you checked that), so I don't know what else to tell you. Some other members may be better able to help you
Dinu
Sorry guys, off topic again.
Oh yeah, my record..I did Montreal to St. Catharines Ontario in 5 hours 30 minutes which includes 2 pee/gas breaks and 40 min worth of traffic on the 401 and QEW.
I wanted something for around 19K, but also something with some style and that is a good drive. I drove every car in this price range and the Protege (in my case the P5) was by far the best to me, and this is coming from someone who values performance, as you can tell from my other car.
Quite simply, the Protege is the best choice for people who value good handling and an entertaining drive. Forget the magazine numbers, handling is all about feel. A few years ago a BMW M3 was named the world's best handling car, even though it's numbers weren't nearly as gaudy as some others.
I have to say I find some of these comparisons amusing. So a Civic can go 0-60 in 8.3 secs vs. 9.0 for a Protege? If 0-60 really matters why are you buying a Civic to start with?
And someone mentioned the Jetta. Well, I test drove a GTI with 17" wheels, and even with the wheels and sport suspension, I was not impressed with this cars handling. It was sprung way to softly, and undulated over uneven pavement. The body roll in turns was awful, my girlfriend's '93 Saturn SC2 felt more planted to the pavement. It felt like VW was trying to compensate for the soggy suspension with the big tires, an old Detroit trick. The power was nice, but nothing a Mustang GT couldn't annihilate for about the same price. The inside was nice, but really not better then the Corolla, which was thousands cheaper.
I thought the Protege, Focus, Sentra, and Elantra GT drove the best, in that order. The Corolla and Civic certainly have their strengths, but the driving experience isn't one of them. They felt like appliances, which is fine for some, but not me.
This is just my unbiased opinion. I'm not a Mazda enthusiast, this is my first one, but I call it like I see it. I also have a Porsche 944 that I used to track, so I like to think that I know a little something about good handling and steering.
LOL
Therefore it couldn't produce any lift/down force since all flow across the surface would be drag, i.e. turbulent, not laminar flow.
(It's also very nice that you happened to agree with all of us Protege nuts!)
;-)
Meade
Happy Birthday, duh_ster!
As an F1 lover, I have to say, if yesterday's times were in any way representative, the rest of the F1 field may be spanked when Ferrari gets the F2002 on track. I know it's hard to take anything of value from a practice session, especially the first. But, there is generally not a 1.5 second gap between the top 2 teams.
We'll know more by the second practice session and I'll be glued to the set tonight at 9pm EST for qualifying. If McLaren and Williams don't outpace Ferrari by .5-.75 min at qualifying, this season could prove ho-hum if Ferrari's F2002 is as realiable as the F2001.
By the way, nice to hear from another former 944 owner who realizes that the Pro offers fantastic all around performance for the price that is actually beyond that of others in the same price range. "Feeling" is more than numbers and Mazda has aimed the feeling of this car a bit above the price tag.
Ron B.
Ron B.
I think Williams & McLaren are holding back a bit in practice... look for the times to be much tigher tonight when it maters. My man Montoya will storm in!
I just started watching last year and became addicted. I'm going to see some of the practice days in Montreal this year and the wife and I ae going to attend the US GP at Indy!!!! :-)
It should be a great year. I'd look for the Renault team to do well this year. Button is a heck of a driver when he's in a good car, and the Renault factory effort (formerly Beneton) will be a STRONG car.
If you haven't gotten a hotel room, do yourself a favor, call the Indianapolis visitors center and get their help now! I mean now! When we went to the first USGP 2 years ago, I thought I was smart making reservations in March for the September race. Well, let me tell you, I spent DAYS calling hotels and the closest I got was almost 100 MILES away! When we checked in, there were many people coming in to see if there were rooms. So, reserve your room and make sure you guarantee it. If you spend the day at the track and get to the hotel late, you don't want to find that the room is gone.
Ron B.
My 2 brothers are going to the Canadian GP this year. They are psyched!
The times will certainly get closer in qualifying. While I am a fan of Michael's, in reality the best he should be hoing for is 4th in qualifying. There is no reason with 2002 spec cars, both Williams cars and at least 1 Mclaren car should not outqualify the year old (albeit updated) Ferrari.
Dinu
GO! GO! GO!
Well, the problem never occurred agin for the next 3 weeks. Last night, I turned her over 2-3 seconds, did not start. Tried again, no start. tried third time and it did that grind to a halt thing like the battery was dead. 4th time strted right up. I definitely had the clutch fully depressed. What gives? I could bring it to the dealership (it's only 1 month old), but I know where that's landing me. This has occurred only 2 times in the probably 100 times the car has been started. The chances of them reproducing the problem are near zero.
Has anyone experienced anything similar? I want to know if there is a general problem. Mazda new about the hard starting of the 2000 MPV's v-6. They were working on a fix while they were selling the cars. By the way, we've had the updates done to her car and it has made a big difference.
Thanks for any input,
Ron B.
I think Trulli and Button in the Renault are ging to surprise a few people this year. They weil fight it our for "4th" with BAR and Jaguar IMO.
I would suggest having the computer re-set so all prev codes are erased. If they will do a reading, they can find it easier. But as you said, if this occurs rarely, I doubt the code will even be stored.
Could this be caused by impure fuel? What about spark plugs? I know the car is new, I'm just trying to fig out what else it could come from.
Dinu
It can't be the plugs because it runs and idles perfectly. It's definitely an electrical supply problem because the power to the starter is being greatly reduced. I can't believe the radio being on would draw so much amperage that it would affect the starter.