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That Focus picture is the facelifted version of the current model sold in Europe. Look at the rest of the car aft of the front fasica. Looks just like the current car.
but my 2001 Protege ES is almost ready to turn 25,000 miles and it's almost 2 years old. It was REALLY cold here yesterday and last night and the car starts very well. Having synthetic oil in it can't hurt. I am just starting to do extended drains (longer than 3K) on the oil. The current Mobil 1 5W30 just passed the 3K mark and I'm already feeling weird about it. I know the oil should be fine till at least 5K, but going past 3K still messes with my "piece of mind". It must be all those years working at Jiffy Lube; my mind is hopelessly brainwashed. For those of you who live in cold climates and have 5sp cars, I recommend the redline synthetic MT90 transmission fluid. I don't have any problems shifting, even when it's severly cold. When I first bought the car, it didn't shift very well when cold. Either it's broken in now, or the MT90 is better than what Mazda used.
About the Focus....I saw that pic a while ago. I don't know if it's to be trusted, but I like the look anyway. The next Focus and Protege should be to the compact car wars what "Fatman" and "Little Boy" were to WWII. I don't expect anything but excellence from these two. I can't wait.
02 Pro ES 5sp. Cannot get it to slip into 1st gear when it is cold outside. Frees up nicely when warm. I have Mobil 1 syn gear oil in the gearbox. Any suggestions?
I'm a Mazda6 owner who got to fool around in a 5 speed Protege LX yesterday. I recommended the Protege to a friend (who was shopping for an Accord) after nearly buying one myself last summer, but I held out for an M6. I want to emphasize that I was really close to buying a Protege, loved the car, and felt completely natural in it, so I probably share the same driving preferences as the others on this board. Before that I had a 1990 Celica. Anyway, I'd like to share my thoughts, and I hope you Protege owners will post your thoughts of the Mazda6 on the Mazda6 board.
The Protege is quite a different experience from the '6. It has a much smaller, insignificant feel that I like. The beltline is much lower than the 6, making visibility excellent. The shifter didn't always seem to want to go into gear, but it didn't detract from the fun of the car- I just wasn't used to it. I wish the shift knob were bigger, though.
The car handled just as well as I remembered, and was a blast to drive. While the '6 handles corners better, the Protege is definitely the more fun of the two. The '6 is much more isolated inside, despite having good feedback. I liked the heavier steering in the Protege better, however, and really wish they had borrowed it instead of the old 626's steering for the M6.
One thing clearly better on the M6: the horn :-) My friend had a good time making fun of his roadrunner sounding horn :-) Actually, the '6 sounds better everywhere- nice engine tone, less road noise, and no squeaks or rattles. Though, I think this lack of noise isolates the driver a bit from the road- I miss that. The expression is, "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow." I love both cars, but think the Protege is more fun to abuse, even though the '6 seemed to be clearly the better performer.
So, to summarize:
Mazda6 = feels big, feels luxurious, and consequently doesn't feel as extreme when at the limit (even if the limits are higher).
Protege = feels small, has more character, and is consequently more fun at the limit, even if the limit is lower.
I should mention that I suspect the M6 comes with better tires standard, even though I have a stripped 6i MT- no options. Also, when I say the M6 feels big, I'm talking in relation to the Protege only- the '6 feels hands down better than the Accord, Altima, and even most sport coupes (I haven't yet been in the all). I'd recommend it to anyone.
----- A few questions for you owners, to help my friend:
The car was very, very rattley before warming up in the freezing weather. The car has 2500 miles on it. Normal? I was kinda disappointed with that- my first test drive was over the summer, and the car felt very solid.
The tranny doesn't shift into first until the car is stopped, he says. Also, though I didn't notice anything, he says the clutch sometimes feels like it is slipping. I did notice that the clutch doesn't fully grab until the pedal is completely depressed.
Yeah, put some redline in it. I had Mobil 1 in my gearbox until I found out that it isn't a dedicated transmission fluid. It's also used for differentials which require different additives than manual transmissions.
I suspect that a Protege ES would handle better than non-sport model Mazda6s. It has a lot to do with the tires. If one were planning to autocross, I think the Protege would be a better choice. It's much lighter, and the chassis has tons of handling potential. SCC said that the Mazdaspeed Protege is the best handling FWD car in the world.
My daughter is thinking about buying a 2003 Mazda Protege automatic LX with ABS brakes. With incentives the dealer has quoted a before tax and fees price of $15,000. What should be our price target. Thanks.
You may be right- no doubt. I compared a 2003 Mazda6i to a 2002 Protege LX, both stock, both under 3k miles. Car and Driver tested grip at .87g's, which is pretty outstanding, and a bit better than the heavier 6s. Indeed, it would probably take the Mazdaspeed Protege to best the 6i. I hope I get a chance to pilot one soon :-)
I ran 7500 miles between oil changes on both synth (ES) and dyno (DX), since that's what both owner's manuals recommended. I know by 38K miles, the DX's engine vibrated a little more than it did when new. The ES was fine at 20K when I traded it in.
I recently bought a 2003 Protege ES. Beautiful car, but... I took it in after 3 weeks (1300 miles) for a rattling inside the engine. I do a little car repair, and thought it was the heat shield, because it seemed to stop after the engine heated up. They kept it for 2 weeks. I decided to send them a certified letter (lemon law first step). Boy did that get a response! They called me in and said my car was ready. When I got there, they said they couldn't fix it, and Mazda Corp. said it was the sound made when some valve stays closed when the engine is cold to help the vortexing of fuel/air mixture and increase performance. So they developed a calibration for the computer to solve the problem. Thing is, they told the dealer that it probably wouldn't help. And it didn't. And the car performs poorly while making this sound. But be that as it may, they said I must accept the car as is, they will not authorize any more work on it, they are taking away my rental, and I can never bring the car in for a rattling inside the engine again. If in the future they develop a fix for it, I will be called in. When I originally took the car in, they said if they couldn't fix it, they would replace the engine. Well, they lied. Now they expect me to just deal with it. So what about when I try to sell it? Explain to the buyer that the noise is OK? I've heard that Mazda is a good car, with few problems. Well, this is what happens to you if you do have a problem. Any one else with this noise? The other cars on the lot don't make this noise. The service manager checked it out. And he said he would be mad if it were him, but in court he will have to say what Mazda told him to say. They tried to give me this explanation that maybe only that week they made the engine a little different. I'm so frustrated. Please someone respond. Oh, and one more thing...I live in south Texas. It doesn't get much colder than 40 F here on the coldest day. The car is doing this at about 75 F.
did it bother you that it was a new car? i mean, i understand it is not a BMW, but I did think it was a performance vehicle. or is that just the way they market it?
But when you find it IS just a characteristic of the car, what are you gonna do. It's just one of those things ya know? Plus it goes away pretty quickly.
My recommendation to you is that you receive everything in clear detailed writing from Mazda or your Mazda dealer. Please also bear in mind that it is likely the dealer is screwing you and not Mazda itself. Dealers are independent franchises and not part of the parent company, although they do have accountability to Mazda itself to some degree.
If your dealer's explanation is that all car's manufactured in a specific week were "engineered" specifically to make that noise, which I find incredulous, then make sure they document it clearly and concisely in exactly those words.
They also have zero legal right to refuse to service your car for the same problem. If something is defective, then they are obligated to replace it as many times as the part is defective. Particularly if the car is new and under warranty. Also get your dealer to put this statement in writing. I will guarantee that they will not. By doing so would void their own warranty coverage and they would be in breach of the explicit contract you signed when you purchased this vehicle.
I would also recommend that you find the contact numbers for Mazda corp. directly and let them know first hand the problems you are having with this dealer. Also, you should take this car to another dealer immediately and have them look into this problem. You are not obligated to take the car to the dealer you purchased from. Judging from the fact they kept your car for 2 weeks, when there really wasn't any need to at all, makes me believe that your dealer is incredibly suspect here. I would go somewhere else, but get them to document all this stuff first.
What model type is your Pro and is it a 5spd or automatic? You also mention that the performance is affected when the engine rattles, can you tell us a little more of the symptoms of how the performance is affected? Please expand on what else happens other than the rattling.
2003 Protege ES 5 spd manual. The engine is hard to start and sluggish when it does. Also, it doesn't seem to matter if I let it warm up or not...it has to be driven for a while for the noise to go away. I really need advise on this: they said I have to pick it up and turn in the rental today. If I pick it up, I'm not conceding to the flaw being acceptable, am I?
Unfortunately, I think your problem is "normal". I have a 2001 ES 2.0L and it does the same thing. It's not hard to start, but it has the same engine "rattle" although I don't know if I'd call it a rattle.
"When I got there, they said they couldn't fix it, and Mazda Corp. said it was the sound made when some valve stays closed when the engine is cold to help the vortexing of fuel/air mixture and increase performance."
This is true. I've researched the heck out of it on other Protege forums, and unfortunately that is the way 2.0L Proteges are. Mazda says it doesn't harm the engine. I don't know if it does or not but I don't like the sound. It DOES go away though when it gets warm. I think it is some sort of bandaid ECU programming to get the 10 year old 2.0L ULEV compliant because the old 2.0Ls in the MX6/Probe/626 didn't do this. I've never brought my car into the dealer for this because I read it's normal. If you have a 2003 and it does it, then it's obvious that Mazda does not have a fix.
School is going great: really good marks this year (I'm kinda surprised myself how good they are) and I will finish by April 2004, so in Sept 2004 Ontario's education system is going down the drain - if it hasn't already by then
The PRO is doing well (50.000kms), but I will need to do a brake job on it pretty soon.
And yes, still doing collections at TM. I'm actually atwork until 9Pm tonite - like ALL Mondays, Tuesdays and Thursdays...
...is a very well known characteristic of the FS-DE 2.0 engine. It has something to do w/ the VTCS intake manifold keeping some of its runner shut when it's cold to keep the emissions requirement better. Protegeclub.com has several threads documenting this problem.
Second, all 1.8 owners rejoice! My engine is footloose and fancy-free from the moment it starts up in 16-degree weather until the time I pull into my parking space at work 24 miles later! 49,100 miles this morning -- the clock is ticking.
Dale -- Two years, huh? Is it time for another "interior wash"?
To the person who posted about the manual tranny being stiff when first starting out in the morning -- completely normal in the Protege's, as well as most other, manual trannies. Mine also doesn't like to downshift for the first couple of minutes, and wants you to come to a complete and dead stop before going into first. It's cold. Give it a minute to warm up before zooming through the gears! By the time I get a mile down the road, all's loose and fine. And this only happens when it gets fairly cold for our area -- say, below 30 degrees. This morning it was dark and 19 degrees at 6:20 when I left for work -- and Zoomster clearly wanted me to shift slowly until he woke up.
How long did your first set of brakes last? I'm at 49,100 miles today, and I have yet to hear any wear indicators. I guess it's time to pull off a wheel and have a good look. While I do allow the car to slow down in the gear I'm in, I don't "engine brake" by going through the gears to a stop. (I figure new brake pads are cheaper than a new clutch, eh?) But I thought a manual-tranny car would go through brakes faster since, at least for the last few mph of braking, the tranny's in neutral and the brakes alone are having to stop the car -- unlike an automatic. So far, out of eight cars I've owned, I think this is the longest I've ever gone on a set of front pads. May 24, by the way, will be three years I've owned the car.
I'd love it if mine lasted that long. I don't think I've made it past 30k in any car I've owned. I do subscribe to the brake pads cheaper than clutch theory so maybe I'm a little hard on the brakes. I dunno. I just drive slow on the driveway anyway.
I've still got what appears to be 40% remaining on my front pads at about 33,000 miles. I'll probably replace them when they look to be at about 20% remaining. The rotor surfaces, while not machined-smooth, look smooth enough I won't have them machined down. Hmm. I don't even know at what wear level the indicators start screeching.
I'll pay the service department to work on my rear drums. They're enough of a hassle for me to have it done by someone else, although I'm going to inspect the work really closely....
That's the biggest advantage to me of rear disc brakes: they're more easily serviced than drums. Easier to check on the amount remaining too.
I broke down and e-mailed MazdaUSA regarding the engine "rattle". I'm sick of waiting for a fix. We'll see what they say. Here's the e-mail:
"Hello, I've been following numereous Protege internet forums and I have read about a "problem" that I seem to have with my 2001 Protege ES 2.0L. Apparantley, there is a programming issue that has to do with coolant temperature and some plates opening and closing. When cold, my car sounds noticably different than when warm. I understand most cars sound different when cold, but this sound is unusual and I have never heard anything like it with my previous vehicles. People are calling it an engine "rattle". You can also notice a slight power surge above a certain RPM when it's cold. It feels like an A/C compressor kicking on and off, but it isn't. Apparantly, Mazda was working on a programming "fix" for this, but I have heard of 2003 owners with the same problem. I suspect Mazda isn't working on a fix because if they "fixed" it, the car would no longer be ULEV compliant. Is Mazda working on a fix, or do 2.0L Protege owners have to put up with an engine that sounds like a coffee grinder until it's warm? Thanks"
Commonly called the death rattle. All 2.0 Proteges have it. Mine did, and the loaner 02 DX I had did as well. Something you have to get used to.
My original brakes on the DX lasted 26K miles, but I was hard on the car. Brakes were fine on the ES when I traded it at 20K. Brakes on current car will turn 29K today, 80% left at both ends.
Funny, our Protege5 has the same engine as the other 2002s and I've never heard this "death rattle" ... but then again I don't have hypersensitive hearing that can hear the cells dividing in the mold spores on the 6-month old petrified french fries beneath my wife's front seats ...
I got that from the TSB on the problem (quoted the definition of the acronym from an exerpt posted here). I've seen different names for it as well, but on different cars or different years of the Pro. Or maybe they keep changing it just to keep folks confused about what it is.
Actually, I remember searching for it on Mazda's US site a while back to find out what it is, and found it under VTCS.
Well, if anyone's right here, I think it would be Mazda itself since they coined the acronym. BTW, I got the acronym off a December Mazda press release for a new Sport Protege concept car with the 2-liter engine. I think they're only producing one as a show car -- when I saw the title of the PR, I got all excited for nothing!
Maltb ... But in the link posted above, someone claimed the 1.8s don't have this VTCS. But anyway ... are there TWO systems, one called VICS and another called VTCS? They both appear to do the same thing (maybe they changed the name to differentiate between the two engines? No wait, according to you the 1.8 has both ...) Now I'm really confused. I can only find reference to VICS on Mazda's web site.
Comments
About the Focus....I saw that pic a while ago. I don't know if it's to be trusted, but I like the look anyway. The next Focus and Protege should be to the compact car wars what "Fatman" and "Little Boy" were to WWII. I don't expect anything but excellence from these two. I can't wait.
02 Pro ES 5sp. Cannot get it to slip into 1st gear when it is cold outside. Frees up nicely when warm. I have Mobil 1 syn gear oil in the gearbox. Any suggestions?
Pete
The Protege is quite a different experience from the '6. It has a much smaller, insignificant feel that I like. The beltline is much lower than the 6, making visibility excellent. The shifter didn't always seem to want to go into gear, but it didn't detract from the fun of the car- I just wasn't used to it. I wish the shift knob were bigger, though.
The car handled just as well as I remembered, and was a blast to drive. While the '6 handles corners better, the Protege is definitely the more fun of the two. The '6 is much more isolated inside, despite having good feedback. I liked the heavier steering in the Protege better, however, and really wish they had borrowed it instead of the old 626's steering for the M6.
One thing clearly better on the M6: the horn :-) My friend had a good time making fun of his roadrunner sounding horn :-) Actually, the '6 sounds better everywhere- nice engine tone, less road noise, and no squeaks or rattles. Though, I think this lack of noise isolates the driver a bit from the road- I miss that. The expression is, "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow." I love both cars, but think the Protege is more fun to abuse, even though the '6 seemed to be clearly the better performer.
So, to summarize:
Mazda6 = feels big, feels luxurious, and consequently doesn't feel as extreme when at the limit (even if the limits are higher).
Protege = feels small, has more character, and is consequently more fun at the limit, even if the limit is lower.
I should mention that I suspect the M6 comes with better tires standard, even though I have a stripped 6i MT- no options. Also, when I say the M6 feels big, I'm talking in relation to the Protege only- the '6 feels hands down better than the Accord, Altima, and even most sport coupes (I haven't yet been in the all). I'd recommend it to anyone.
-----
A few questions for you owners, to help my friend:
The car was very, very rattley before warming up in the freezing weather. The car has 2500 miles on it. Normal? I was kinda disappointed with that- my first test drive was over the summer, and the car felt very solid.
The tranny doesn't shift into first until the car is stopped, he says. Also, though I didn't notice anything, he says the clutch sometimes feels like it is slipping. I did notice that the clutch doesn't fully grab until the pedal is completely depressed.
check this site's TMV for a more concrete price.
good luck.
Woo hoo!
--Dale
And no, I never waxed my PRO either - too much work.
Dinu
If your dealer's explanation is that all car's manufactured in a specific week were "engineered" specifically to make that noise, which I find incredulous, then make sure they document it clearly and concisely in exactly those words.
They also have zero legal right to refuse to service your car for the same problem. If something is defective, then they are obligated to replace it as many times as the part is defective. Particularly if the car is new and under warranty. Also get your dealer to put this statement in writing. I will guarantee that they will not. By doing so would void their own warranty coverage and they would be in breach of the explicit contract you signed when you purchased this vehicle.
I would also recommend that you find the contact numbers for Mazda corp. directly and let them know first hand the problems you are having with this dealer. Also, you should take this car to another dealer immediately and have them look into this problem. You are not obligated to take the car to the dealer you purchased from. Judging from the fact they kept your car for 2 weeks, when there really wasn't any need to at all, makes me believe that your dealer is incredibly suspect here. I would go somewhere else, but get them to document all this stuff first.
"When I got there, they said they couldn't fix it, and Mazda Corp. said it was the sound made when some valve stays closed when the engine is cold to help the vortexing of fuel/air mixture and increase performance."
This is true. I've researched the heck out of it on other Protege forums, and unfortunately that is the way 2.0L Proteges are. Mazda says it doesn't harm the engine. I don't know if it does or not but I don't like the sound. It DOES go away though when it gets warm. I think it is some sort of bandaid ECU programming to get the 10 year old 2.0L ULEV compliant because the old 2.0Ls in the MX6/Probe/626 didn't do this. I've never brought my car into the dealer for this because I read it's normal. If you have a 2003 and it does it, then it's obvious that Mazda does not have a fix.
School is going great: really good marks this year (I'm kinda surprised myself how good they are) and I will finish by April 2004, so in Sept 2004 Ontario's education system is going down the drain - if it hasn't already by then
The PRO is doing well (50.000kms), but I will need to do a brake job on it pretty soon.
And yes, still doing collections at TM. I'm actually atwork until 9Pm tonite - like ALL Mondays, Tuesdays and Thursdays...
How's the WRX and PRO?
Cheers!
Dinu
Dale -- Two years, huh? Is it time for another "interior wash"?
To the person who posted about the manual tranny being stiff when first starting out in the morning -- completely normal in the Protege's, as well as most other, manual trannies. Mine also doesn't like to downshift for the first couple of minutes, and wants you to come to a complete and dead stop before going into first. It's cold. Give it a minute to warm up before zooming through the gears! By the time I get a mile down the road, all's loose and fine. And this only happens when it gets fairly cold for our area -- say, below 30 degrees. This morning it was dark and 19 degrees at 6:20 when I left for work -- and Zoomster clearly wanted me to shift slowly until he woke up.
Meade
Meade
Why is a package delivered on a ship called cargo, but a package delivered in a car called a shipment?
Meade
I'll pay the service department to work on my rear drums. They're enough of a hassle for me to have it done by someone else, although I'm going to inspect the work really closely....
That's the biggest advantage to me of rear disc brakes: they're more easily serviced than drums. Easier to check on the amount remaining too.
"Hello,
I've been following numereous Protege internet forums and I have read about a "problem" that I seem to have with my 2001 Protege ES 2.0L. Apparantley, there is a programming issue that has to do with coolant temperature and some plates opening and closing. When cold, my car sounds noticably different than when warm. I understand most cars sound different when cold, but this sound is unusual and I have never heard anything like it with my previous vehicles. People are calling it an engine "rattle". You can also notice a slight power surge above a certain RPM when it's cold. It feels like an A/C compressor kicking on and off, but it isn't. Apparantly, Mazda was working on a programming "fix" for this, but I have heard of 2003 owners with the same problem. I suspect Mazda isn't working on a fix because if they "fixed" it, the car would no longer be ULEV compliant. Is Mazda working on a fix, or do 2.0L Protege owners have to put up with an engine that sounds like a coffee grinder until it's warm? Thanks"
VICS is a cough medicine. ;-)
Meade
P.S. Todd, it's "apparently."
"Variable Inertia Charging System (VICS)."
And about the cough medicine ...
That's "Vicks."
;-)
(I know; I've been taking 44E for about a week now.)
Meade
My original brakes on the DX lasted 26K miles, but I was hard on the car. Brakes were fine on the ES when I traded it at 20K. Brakes on current car will turn 29K today, 80% left at both ends.
Funny, our Protege5 has the same engine as the other 2002s and I've never heard this "death rattle" ... but then again I don't have hypersensitive hearing that can hear the cells dividing in the mold spores on the 6-month old petrified french fries beneath my wife's front seats ...
Meade
Actually, I remember searching for it on Mazda's US site a while back to find out what it is, and found it under VTCS.
Meade
Meade
http://www.protegeclub.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14824&highlight=VTCS
http://www.geocities.com/negatize/vics.htm
Maltb ... But in the link posted above, someone claimed the 1.8s don't have this VTCS. But anyway ... are there TWO systems, one called VICS and another called VTCS? They both appear to do the same thing (maybe they changed the name to differentiate between the two engines? No wait, according to you the 1.8 has both ...) Now I'm really confused. I can only find reference to VICS on Mazda's web site.
Meade