Jeep Liberty

sasquatch_2000

No, the Civic is getting a little tired. Good for a college kid, though.

One note, I am 6'2", and cannot, repeat, cannot put the seat all the way back. However, in a JEEP Cherokee, my knees hit the steering wheel!!

What I would love is to get a Cherokee, but I just don't fit.

I like the beach idea too, and forgot to mention it. Martha's Vineyard, and Cape Cod.

csawru

Hey,

I'm 6'4 and fit the Cherokee/Comanche OK. I have to recline the seat back some, which lets the upper part of me and my butt back more, and the seat is pushed all the way back to the stops..

Will

sasquatch_2000

In case you missed my post, it is not "the upper part of me and my butt" which hits the steering wheel. It is the part from my knee to my foot. The foot has to stay in the same place (on/near the pedals). The upper part is determined by distance from the steering wheel.

Do these come with a tilt wheel? The one I tried didn't. That MIGHT help.

csawru

I'm pretty sure most of them to have an adjustable steering wheel, comes with the defacto standard Sport Package...

BTW, I meant since I could sit and recline back far enough, my lower legs found enough room to fit, as well.. Although my right knee usually rests right on the 4WD shift lever. Can be a little bothersome but not too bad.

I do hope you can find one that fits. Good luck,

Will

bblaha

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?Avis=TO&Dato=20010429&Kategori=BUSINESS02&Lopenr=104290044

For Pete's sake, what's up with "You can't post any word longer than 115 characters?"

drew_

The character limit is there because long URLs mess up the screen formatting. As you can see, your URL above has already cause some of the formatting to scroll off to the right. With the last board software, we could get around this problem by hiding posts. However, Web Crossing doesn't even have an option for that, so a character limit had to be put in place. I will admit that I don't like it either, and kicked and screamed (well, not literally ;-)) when it was first put in place. It was actually 100 characters before, which was prevented many Edmunds.com URLs from being posted.

Hope this helps!

Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards

bblaha

Which is why, as I suggested over in the "New software, questions asnwered..." forum that someone somewhere needs to add a little logic so that the limit applies only to displayed words.

That link I posted is 108 characters long. I tried to hide it using {a href="link"}article{/a}, but the extra characters put it over the 115 limit. If I'm counting correctly, it was over by 1 character. Thus, I posted it with 108...

bobcatbob

I read the Blade article and have only one comment: THEY THINK IT'LL SELL 240,000 A YEAR????

Ok, the Liberty may make the girls swoon for me, make me look 15lbs lighter, make me look even more handsome than I already am, and may, in fact, be a great vehicle, but 240,000 a year? I don't know if any investigation has started, but I'd start looking for something in the water in Toledo!

Realistically, how many other SUV's out there sell 240,000 a year? Heck, at that number you are approaching Explorer and CR-V territory. Given the Escape/Tribute, the VUE, the new CR-V, and other just entering the marketplace, this total seems extraordinarily unrealistic.

So, Jeep folks think that over 100,000 more people will want the Liberty than did in the Cherokees best year? Given the Escape/Tributes goal of selling 160K a year, Jeep folks think 90,000 more people per year will prefer the Liberty?

tinoman1

try to get a tribute and you'll see why jeep feels it will sell a lot. If Jeep can secure the parts on a steady basis, the sales for this liberty will skyrocket. I predict it will be the hottest suv on the market by 1st quarter 2002 and dealers will be charging sticker or higher. this is just a gut feeling but a strong one. one serious recall & all bets are off.

tinoman1

for every serious off roader that is against the liberty for IFS etc., there will be 2 liberty buyers who dont do serious off roading and want the liberty for a host of other reasons.

sasquatch_2000

I don't know why it doesn't just wrap your typing to the next line. You'd think that would be standard with all the advances and in this day and age, blah blah blah.

;-)

HAPPY FRIDAY!!!

bblaha

That ratio needs to be a heck of a lot higher than 2 to 1. With Cherokees, its probably closer to 50 to 1 who buy it for reasons other than going offroad.

However, a major reason for buying other than actually going offroad is knowing its capable of going offroad. That is Jeep's image. The KJ puts Jeep well on the road toward the death of that image. Jeep executives have already been quoted as saying not all future Jeeps will have to be able to leave the pavement. Since the vast majority of buyers don't leave the road, the pressure is to build for them. Libertys will be used for doing the same things that Explorers, Foresters, Blazers, CRVs, and most other mainstream SUVs. It will carry alot of dogs around, probably do ok with towing trailers, including getting you to the campground. But its ridiculous to believe it will do just as well as a Cherokee offroad. It won't.

The image death will be slow and tortuous. And inevitable.

paisan

As a stock vehicle, the tourture test they have to pass is actually done on modified from stock vehicles:

front and rear overhangs are trimmed away (for better angles of aproach and departure)
larger than stock tires are used
quite a bit of body and suspension damage is encountered

A friend of mine works for DC and showed me pics of the test, and pointed out how funny it was that they weren't even stock trucks and still got damaged during the trails.

But I will agree that image is everything when it comes to SUVs especially.

-mike

bobcatbob

I think you should mention to everyone here that you have apparently placed a deposit on a Liberty, without test driving it or having a handle on exactly how much you are going to be charged. Thus, I think some of your positive comments are a product of wishful thinking.

Mazda is only producing 35,000 Tributes a year at maximum capacity. Also, the Escape/Tribute doesn't have a complete plant dedicated to their production as the Liberty does. Sure, getting a Tribute may be difficult, but that's because there aren't that many being produced. Try to get an Escape (Same vehicle you know) and people are dealing on those already. Of course, both have been out for almost a year now.

As far as your Yahoo Board post "Get your Liberty now because next year they will be a hot commodity," I disagree. Why? Well, there will be 6 times as many Liberty's produced in the next year compared to the Tribute Jeep has said they will 117,000 in calendar year 2001 alone.

bblaha

Yeah, "stock" has to be taken with a grain of salt. To me, "stock" means "without any aftermarket additions not available new from the factory".

A 6 inch lift, not stock.

A 2 inch lift on a non Up Country Cherokee, stock

Adding skid plates, stock

Etc.

Probably one of the most important ones is the sway bar. A big deal is made of the KJ having the same wheel travel as a stock Wrangler. Well, a "stock Wrangler" has stabilizer bars front and rear (as does the Cherokee). For exactly $0, a few choice four letter words, and 20 minutes time, those sway bars can be removed, tossing the "same amount of wheel travel" argument into the garbage where it belongs.

rsholland

A 2 inch lift on a non Up Country Cherokee, stock

How do figure that's stock? Stock means exactly that—factory stuff, not aftermarket stuff.

Bob

bblaha

The "Up Country" option includes a 2 inch lift

paisan

Cutting away the lower cladding for angle of approach and departure? And larger than stock tires? (larger than available stock tires) and all the damage they get on the trail? If it can truely handle it, I'd expect them to run a car through it, and place it back on a lot next to another truck with the same # of miles (like let's say 1000 miles) and have a person come onto the lot and not be able to tell the difference between the 2 of them. That in my opinion would show that it can handle the trail as a stock vehicle.

-mike

rbork

Does it bother anyone that the mileage specs on this SUV are so poor? They've taken the GC V-8, chopped it down to a V-6 and put it in a smaller SUV, and it's still only rated at 16/20, and needs mid-grade fuel to get that. Since I have a 150 mile daily commute, I was hoping to trade up (down?) from my GC to to get better mileage, but now what's the point?

rsholland

The Up-Country package is a 1" lift, not a 2" lift.

Bob

bobcatbob

Well, in the day and age of $2 a gallon gas, 16/20 is just plain horrible. I think the Tahoe and Suburban might be in the same gas-mileage area as well.

Of course, the Liberty, by specs and size, isn't a small sport utilility. It is classed as a "mid-size" according to the federal government.

sdesort

I have been swarming through the Town Hall SUV messages for many weeks now as my 98 Durango lease is about to expire. In trying to find a replacement, I've decided to scale down to a small/mid-size ute. In steps the big seller, Escape/Tribute. Ford did a pretty good job with this vehicle. It has most of what I am looking for, but nothing that really impressed me. Cost is a major deciding factor here, as I will be financing this time.

I have even looked at a stripped-down '02 Explorer XLS ($28,750). Still, nothing really thrilling about it.

Then, there is the Liberty. Pricing out loaded at $27,700, it looked promising. And the more I look at what you get for the dollar, Jeep certainly has something going for it. A REAL, full-time 4WD system, not a viscous clutch thing-a-ma-jig. Better towing. And a better looking vehicle, IMHO.

I know there are many folks here that are upset about the IFS. For me, it's a non-issue. I honestly don't think I would put a $27,000 vehicle in a position where I would find myself saying "geez, I wouldn't be stuck up on this 15 foot rock if this truck had a solid axle". Gimme a $10,000 used pickup with a cap on it, and then you'll see me try something like that. I just don't have the money to throw around and risk scraping the paint or dinging the hell out of a Liberty.

As for the 16/20 gas mileage, I don't consider it out of line at all. This is one heavy truck by all reports, heavier than the Escape. The Escape is rated 18/24, but if you read the newsgroups, most folks are averaging about 19. Considering the Liberty's 3.7 has over 20% more displacement and needs to push a couple hundred pounds more than the Escape's 3.0, I'd say the mileage appears to be about right. But only real-life owner reports will tell how much gas it chugs. Over 3 years, I have gotten an average of 13.2 on my 5.0 V8 Durango (it was rated 13/17), so if I get 17 on a Liberty, I'll be clicking my heals.

Not being a die-hard Jeep fan, I really wasn't even considering any Jeep at all until the Liberty came along. The Cherokee is so old looking and cramped. The GC is simply too expensive. The Liberty fills that gap. I know many people want and need some of the things Jeep is abandoning as it phases out the Cherokee in favor of a Liberty. But I think they will gain a much larger market segment. Yes, I DO light off-road excursions, camping, mountain biking. I need a vehicle than can make it's way on some slightly rocky, uneven terrain, yet still serve as a comfortable commuter vehicle. But I don't think the lack of a solid axle would make any difference to me and my needs. If nothing else, the Liberty made me look at the Jeep product line in a search for a replacement truck.

Hopefully, my local dealership will receive their first shipment soon so I can test drive one. My biggest problem is timing. My lease ends soon, so I have to make a decision a little quicker than I'd like to. I know first year production vehicles should be avoided, by my Durango was late first-year, and it has been 100% trouble-free. If all goes well, my next vehicle may very well be a Liberty.

--
Scot

drew_

This is what paisan is referring to. I posted it in another topic a few months ago:

http://www.rubicon-trail.com/Rubicon/rep_8223wj.html


Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards

gsogymrat

The primary reason I will probably not buy a Liberty is Jeep's poor record for reliability. I am not enough of a risk taker to put down 20-something thousand for a first year model from a company with such a poor reputation. According to Consumer Reports the Cherokee is more than 40% more likely to have problems than the AVERAGE vehicle, the Grand Cherokee V8 is 159% more likely! Many of the messages on the Grand Cherokee message board are a testimony to these stats. The only way I would consider a Liberty is if they pulled a Hyundai and had a 10 year/100,000 mile warranty on the powertrain. If the Liberty is the quality product the spokespeople say then they should put their warranty where there mouth is.

rsholland

That's an excellent point. If Jeep is so convinced that their quality is a "non-issue," they should offer a warranty that can match the best in the industry. As much as I like the Liberty, Jeep quality issues, are a real concern for me (and many others).

Bob

stewardrobbins

My quality concerns can be addressed by doing two things: 1. Waiting until next year. The Liberty's reputation will be developing, magazine reports will be in, and the prices will be lower. 2. Spending a few hundred extra for an extended warranty. The Liberty's pricing is reasonable, and the warranty will provide peace of mind.

paisan

I'm not sure if you could still be convinced of a larger truck, but for the $ you want to spend you can get a full loaded Trooper (selling for around $28K +Tax +Tags) with everything except Leather (includes the largest stock moonroof of ANY suv) and a 10/120K powertrain warranty and 3/50K bumper to bumper.

-mike

http://isuzu-suvs.com

paisan

Those were some of the pics I was referring to. Also a friend is an engineer for DC in Detroit as well.

-mike

antony

Also, bear in mind that the weight of a Liberty is 4000+ lbs,
which makes it as heavy a Grand Cherokee Laredo. Yet
it's only got the 3.7 V-6, which makes much lower torque
than the 4.0 I-6 at low RPM. Will it accelerate AT ALL from
a standing start ???????????

rsholland

Hardly. Besides it's got that new multi-speed automatc with two different second gears, asssuming you go with the automatic.

Bob

stever

Jeep Unveils New 2002 Liberty

Steve
Host
Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

jimsxn

Car and Driver's article; manufacturer's rating in - http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/previews/2001/February

Sadly.. a gas hog at 16-21 mpg.

All figures for V6 auto.

rsholland

Does anybody know why Jeep has never offered Select Trac with manual transmissions? Would Select Trac not function properly with a manual gearbox? Or, is it strictly a marketing decision? I've always found this odd, and no Jeep salesperson has been able to answer this question when I've asked them.

It looks like they're continuing that policy with the Liberty.

Bob

countsmackula1

According to the "Build Your Own" section of the Liberty section of the Jeep website, Selec-Trac is available with the manual transmission. In other words, it will "let" you build it that way. This is what I would prefer myself.Also, I really do not understand why this vehicle is offered with the four-cylinder at all.It is extremely underpowered. I have a 1995 Cherokee with the 2.5 liter 4 cylinder, and I hate it(the engine). There's no power for passing or anything else.I can only imagine what a 100- cc-(2.4 liter) smaller engine must feel like. There's just no substitute for engine size in order to properly pull a good deal of weight. I also think the full-time Selec-Trac is the best deal going--I would advise anyone buying a Liberty to order one with this option. I hope the 5-speed manual is greatly improved--the current one is tough but very hard to shift if you're not used to it--it's no Honda tranny ,that's for sure! But in a world full of wanna-bes, the Jeep is the real thing, and the Liberty is their best effort yet. One more thing-- if you guys want to get a kick, go to Mike's Totally Free Jeep News. Become a member if it asks you to. Go to the Liberty section and read the comments that some of these traditonal Jeepers have posted, You'd think Chrysler had burned and pillaged their homes and assaulted their families from the way they talk about the new Liberty and it's lack of a solid front axle!! But folks, that's why we have a concept called progess, and that's why the car companies have engineers. Sorry for rambling on, but that's my take on it.RS Holland, good luck with your Liberty order!

bblaha

Count: Liberty, the best yet?!? Opinions vary.

rsholland: AFAIK, there isn't any reason you can't get the manual with either of the transfer cases. I do know that in the last couple of years, there was a shortage of the manual transmissions, and so very few actually made it to a dealers lot. For those that ordered from the factory though, I think they could a manual. It might have taken extra time.

I can't think of any really good reason why a MT doesn't work with the Selectrac. ST and CT share much of the same components and a spinning shaft is a spinning shaft, regardless of whether it comes out of a auto or manual tranny.

Jeep actually has 2 manual transmissions AX5, and AX15. I think the AX5 is used on the 2.5l engines and the AX15 is used on the 4.0l, because the AX5 uses a slightly taller 1st gear, but I'm not entirely sure. At any rate, the 1st gear ratio for the AX15 is 3.83:1, significantly taller than the 2.80:1 used for 1st gear with the AW4 tranny (automatic). Also, the AX15 reverse gear is 4.22:1, also much taller than the AW4's (2.39:1).

It may be that the differential in the transfer case can't handle those stresses. When I bought my '97, I inquired about a manual trans, but the salesman told me they wouldn't warrant the 5000 lb towing capacity with the manual; apparently alot of people were returning XJs for warranty repair that had burned out transfer cases (even though I was only interested in the CT). Maybe its the differential that is the weak link (at least its the only identifiable difference between the Selec and Command tracs). Interesting though.

rsholland

My understanding that the Liberty (and I guess Cherokee too) have only a Class II (3500#) tow rating with the manual tranny. With the automatic, and with the optional tow package, they're rated at 5000# (Class III).

I was really hoping that Jeep would offer Select Trac with the manual on the new Liberty. As you all know, the Rav4 and Forester both have AWD, which is available with the manual transmission. Someone who wants AWD capability and a manual is still out of luck if they want a Jeep.

Bob

countsmackula1

Yeah, but you get a low -range , something you can't get in the RAV4 or the Subaru, not to mention that the Jeep is a an all-around better deal any way you slice it. If I was doing a lot of towing, I'd get an auto anyway--it transfers the load more gently on the other components, and doesn't really rob that much power at all compared to automatics of 10 years ago. The Selec -trac is good is rain, snow , mud, anything. I like it because you can customize the settings. As for the 5-speed transmissions ,I gues they are still Japanese: made by Aisin-Warner. The earlier Cherokees had French-made trannies and they were junk! I just wish the diesel engine would be offered. Making it emissions compliant can't be that hard to do. But of course, the oil companies have convinced us that diesel fuel needs to be more expensive than gasoline, even though, no matter what, it costs 1/8 to 1/10 the amount to refine, not to mention beter mileage. There I go, rambling again!!!

bobcatbob

Using the off-road ability of a Jeep versus that of a RAV 4 and Subie's is not a very good way of determining that "Jeep is an all-around better deal any way you slice it.."

The Jeep's are less reliable and their quality comes under fire by consumers and others in the auto industry.

If paying a little more for a RAV 4 will ensure that the vehicle will last to 200K miles, then I am willing to do that.

In addition, the term of "deal" or "value" will be severely distorted in the first few weeks and months because dealers are sure to jack up prices due to demand.

I think Jeep has a great product here, don't get me wrong. I just feel that too many people jump on the bandwagon and make a new vehicle out to be the best thing since sliced bread...

paisan

I'd personally compare the Liberty to an Axiom...

AWD, 4500lb towing, car-like ride, about the same room, 10/120K warranty 3/50K bumper to bumper

The Axiom though is only available in AT though.

Just something to think about.

-mike

http://isuzu-suvs.com

zeen

I saw the Liberty at the Auto Show and it appears to be significantly smaller than the Axiom. I think the Axiom has substantially more cargo room. The Liberty looks like a great SUV but I'm having trouble justifying $27,000+ for it. It just doesn't seem that substantial. I feel the same way about the Escape. The Axiom seems like a more substantial vehicle.

rsholland

for a Liberty, is buying one loaded to the gills. Low $20Ks should get you a pretty decent Liberty.

The AWD feature of Subaru, Rav4, etc., is an important issue that Jeep has to deal with. As we all know, besides the off-road market, Jeep is targeting the "sport-cute" market too. When considering this market, the AWD (or lack-there-of) feature could sway a lot of customers who prefer a manual transmission.

Bob

sasquatch_2000

If I was going to compare the Axiom and Liberty, the first thing I would look at is do they fall into the same price range if similarly equipped.

My question is: "Do they?"

sasquatch_2000

"Using the off-road ability of a Jeep versus that of a RAV 4 and Subie's is not a very good way of determining that "Jeep is an all-around better deal any way you slice it..""

followed by: "...If paying a little more for a RAV 4 will ensure that the vehicle will last to 200K miles, then I am willing to do that."

Yes, but take it into the boonies, and then the question is DOES it last as long as the Jeep? You need a certain level of ruggedness, which I am not so sure the others (or the Liberty, for that matter) have.

I think all car mfr's should have to run their cars in the 24 hours at Daytona or LeMans. All 4X4 makers should run the Paris-Dakar or similar.

This would sort things out real quick, and make things better for both consumers and manufacturers.

paisan

Sasquatch why should they have to run them that long/hard if the average user isn't going to use them to that extent? It doesn't make economic sense to over-engineer a car to do more than is absolutely necessary. Just like in a safety recall, there are formulas that take into account: How much the recall will cost, how much lost business, how many lawsuits will have to be paid out, etc. Samw goes for building a car. If a majority of the users will be happy with a mediocre product that will yield a $X profit or an outstanding vehicle that will yield $X-y profit, the manufacturer is going to go with the mediocre product any day of the week.

-mike

bobcatbob

Does it bother anyone that the cargo area behind the second seat of the Liberty is smaller and holds less than that of the departing Cherokee? I never took notice of this, but most, if not all, of the reviews I am reading have mentioned this fact. And, the Liberty second row seats don't come out, nor do they lay flat, as was illustrated in the Motor Week test ride.

Any thoughts?

paisan

I'd bet with a ratchet it could be taken out in less than 10 minutes, just my guess though (I know someone has done this on current trooper models) That does bother me that it has less room behind the 2nd row of seats, but maybe they are shooting for 2nd row comfort over cargo area? Also maybe it's higher than previous so it holds the same amount? Just guesses. Also with the rear mounted tire, it should save some room there.

-mike

zeen

A fairly well loaded Liberty will have a sticker price of over $27,000 according to my local dealer. They offered to sell me one arriving in about 3 weeks at sticker. I supect the Liberty will be selling around sticker for quite a while. Why is the Liberty so wonderful that people would be willing to pay what amounts to a significant premium?

stever

Jeep is about to ask you out on a date.

Steve
Host
Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

rsholland

Granted these are base prices, but I still think you could get a nicely equipped Liberty Sport for around $23-$24K. I really think they will be priced for about the same as a comparably equipped Cherokee.

http://www.jeepwarehouse.com/model.asp?VehicleID=1006

I'd start looking for another dealer...

Bob

rsholland

http://us.media.daimlerchrysler.com/index_e.htm

Bob