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Comments
I'm telling you—the sales kits that the cute-ute sales people will be receiving, will have a lot of ammunition to bolster their position when it come to making comparisons with Liberty.
Bob
I'm not really interested in Subarus. I used to have one. What views did you mean?
Visit any of the AWD discussions here at Edmunds and elsewhere, and you will find the vast majority of owners swear by AWD, and feel it is very worthwhile 365 days a year.
You might find the following Edmunds report interesting. The following is a quote from the report:
<<The system is pretty straightforward, if the front wheels begin to slip, additional power is routed to the rear and vice versa.
After putting this system through its paces on a rainy Southern California afternoon, we can tell you that Subaru's claims of imperceptibility with this system are valid. Despite tight hairpin turns, gobs of throttle and freshly drenched roads, we never managed to break the WRX free from its roadway death grip. It's a unique driving experience that few vehicles can offer, and frankly, after nearly two hours of flogging the car through a heavy downpour, we were hooked.>>
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/roadtest/46122/article.html
Bob
My impressions:
- Nice looking inside and out. Don't like how the rear seats fold down.
- I was surprised that it handled and drove as well as it did. I was expecting the rear end to hop around more than it did, but it had a pretty decent ride. Smoother than I expected it would. It does have quite a bit of body roll cornering and does dive on breaking. Brakes seem like they could use some beefing up. Interior noise was pleasantly low.
- The power seemed adequate but is not great.
- Rear seat room is good, but there is a weird hump where your feet go that is annoying.
- Small center console bin and not many places for change, etc.
- Climate control are angled down akwardly.
- Didn't like how squishy the sides of the bottom seat cushion felt.
Then, I drove an Escape:
- The Escape did handle and ride quite a bit better, and seemed to have better acceleration.
- It is quite a bit louder inside than the Liberty.
- Huge center console storage bin, lots of places for change, etc. But, you get a column shifter because of that. I didn't mind it.
- Rear seat fold down is better.
- Cargo room seems pretty much the same as both.
- Better view of road out front window.
The price I got quoted OTD on the loaded Escape was quite a bit cheaper than the non loaded Liberty sticker price. I don't expect many Liberties selling below sticker at first. Since I don't need any "serious" off road capability that the Liberty claims to have, I'm thinking I'll save some money and get an Escape.
My .02, YMMV.
Bob
The real question is will it break 9 seconds. Noone races SUVs, but they do need to merge ok. The Cherokee was always pretty nimble. It and the Escape/Tribute accelerate about the same.
front leg room?
front head room?
Who cares about the column shifter. If you ask me, that is the best place for it (in an auto).
Head room is great in the Liberty, it has such a tall roof line. I dont remember the Escape's head room but I dont remember it being a problem.
Didn't get in the back seats, sorry. We're a 2 person family and dont expect to use them that much, probably spend their time folded down.
Overall both vehicles are great. The Escape had some serious recalls early on( steering wheel falling off, wheels falling off both of which are due to incorrect hardware) but hopefully they are cleared up.
I love the looks of the Liberty, it's quite a unique vehicle. Im not buying until Sept/Oct, im leaning towards the Liberty pending a smooth rollout. I think the option delays are kind of disappointing but not a sign of a serious problem, just some unexpected hitches to be expected when building a new vehicle from the ground up.
I'm a big guy, about 6'2". Back seat leg room was good on both, about the same amount. I felt the layout was better in the Escape, since there wasn't the hump that made placing your feet flat in the floor akward in the Liberty. Also, the rear seats don't fold as flat in the the Liberty as they do in the Escape. Getting out of the rear seats in the Escape was a bit easier. The Liberty had a bit of a lip that I kept cathcing my shoes on.
Front leg was also really good in both. Front passenger has miles of leg room in the Escape, same in Liberty. Had no problem with driver leg room either.
Head room is very good in both. Both of the ones I drove had moon roofs, and I still had a couple of inches above my head. Withouty the moon roof there would be even more.
Also, I agree on the column shifter... I know a lot of people gripe, but I had 0 problems with it. I much prefer having the extra storage space for stuff on the center console. I think I did like the interior of the Liberty a bit better than the Escape. Both have white faced gauges, which are nice. The brushed aluminum accents in the Liberty looked pretty good. They really continue the circle theme of the light inside with circular door handles and air vents.
One thing that also bothers me about the Liberty is I really don't like vehicles that have the spare tire mounted outside the tailgate. I would rather have it inside under the cargo area like the escape, or under the body or something. With the rear axle on the Liberty to deal with, I guess they couldn't find a better solution. I just don't like the look of it, or the damage it can cause if you're ever rear ended.
I'm not worried about any recall issues with the Escape. A lot of them were minor supplier issues, and all seemed to be worked out now.
So expect the Liberty to get lousy rear bumper crash ratings.
Bob
Click on the Resources link to see a list of how others fared.
http://europe.cnn.com/2001/US/04/09/collision.tests/
-mike
"Outside the U.S., the newcomer will keep the Cherokee model name, but Jeep found that American consumers were more likely to zero in on the word Liberty during market research."
Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
I wonder why nobody mounts a spare up top?
(maybe we'll see that next?)
I think Isuzu(?) showed a concept vehicle a while ago that had the spare mounted on the door, but could only be accessed from the inside. You had to open the door, remove the inside door panel, and there was the spare. The rear bumper extended beyond the spare "bump" in the door, so you had reasonable rear crash protection. The tire was secure (from theft), afforded better aerodynamics,
and was very easy to access. I thought it was a great solution to the spare tire issue. Too bad they never put it into production.
Bob
-mike
Although, I know that's not a problem for you—as you only look straight ahead ;-{)
Bob
Yep, who needs to look out the back? Actually on my Trooper the side mirrors are so well placed/large enough, that I rarely need to look out the rear window.
-mike
Bob
Speaking of which, would you choose a WRX Sport over an Outback Sport? Are the 60 extra ponies worth the extra money?
________
Also, I spoke with a Jeep dealer last night and he was expecting his allotment within a month or so....He also said "We expect the Liberty to be another Pt Cruiser situation." I responded to this by saying "Oh, so you'll be marking them up 5K over sticker then?" His only reply was "Well, who knows, but they will be marked up over sticker price for sure." I said "Ok thanks, but I am not paying over sticker for a Jeep." He then asked me if I wanted to order on "so (I) could save a few bucks now."
He also said he wasn't aware of any delays in the ABS or moonroofs and anyoen who said so was lying.
Why would anyone pay over sticker for this vehicle? I mean I like it a lot, but it certainly isn't revolutionary or ground breaking, is it?
I've driven two WRXs (a wagon and a sedan, both 5-speeds) and a new OBS 5-speed. My choice is clearly the WRX. Please bear in mind there is turbo lag below 3000 rpm. Above 3500 rpm, it's nothing but grins.
The OBS is a fine vehicle too. In fact it comes standard with a number of features that are optional on the WRX wagon, such as roof rack cross bars, rear step pad (very useful if you have a large dog, like I do), and a rubber rear cargo mat. It also comes with an ambient temperature gauge, which in not available on any other Impreza. It also uses regular gas, and not premium like the WRX. It's got good power (165 hp, 2.5L), and its power delivery is more predictable.
Counterpoint:
Mike (Paisan) drove a WRX automatic, and didn't care for it. The turbo lag is probably more pronounced with the 4EAT, than with the 5-speed. He didn't like that at all, and his rear and the driver's seat didn't get along.
Bob
The WRX turbo w/ 4eat had far less get-up-and-go on the butt dyno compared to my '88 XT6 2.7l H6 with 145hp and a 4eat. I'll bet the torque band on the 2.7l H6 is much broader than the 2.0l Turbo model.
-mike
Bob
http://www.rockstomper.com/catalog/tubework/bumpers.htm
It mounts into the receiver hitch on SUVs for $129.
http://isuzu-suvs.com/rearbar.html
Contact Matt @ http://independent4x.com
-mike
http://isuzu-suvs.com
(the bar is constructed of 1/4" wall 2"x2" bar)
At the absolute worst, I'll replace the whole hitch and bar (total cost $300) rear door/bumpe replacement = $1500
-mike
-mike
In the 5mph area, it's a pretty neat attachment and could save quite a bit of money if somebody bumps you.
6 cylinder Liberty 5-speeds can tow 3500# (Class II).
6 cylinder Liberty automatics w/tow package can tow 5000# (Class III).
Bob
The local dealership had a silver Sport model with the B package, V6, auto, and Command-Trac.
First impressions...the Liberty is tall, something you don't realize until you stand next to the thing. Build quality looked and felt exceptional...all the doors closed with a solid, yet muted, WHUMP. I really like the flipper glass/gate mechanism. Pull the outside handle one click and the glass swings up automatically, or you can pull it a bit more forcefully and the door and glass open at the same time.
The hood is supported by two gas struts. The engine compartment is NOT as crowded as you might expect...lots of room to move around. In fact, it looks like Jeep could fit the I6 in there with no problem, seeing as there were several inches of open air between the accessory belt and the back of the radiator. Everything clearly marked and easy to reach.
As for the rest of the exterior, I like the way the headlamp arches are swept into the top of the hood. The tailight assembly is nicely designed. All the door handles are large and easy to pull. The position of the radio antenna looks like an afterthought, though, mounted on the passenger side front quarter panel.
Inside? Well, the inside seemed cavernous (I'm driving a VW GTI now). Getting into the driver's seat was easy enough, made even more so by the grab handle mounted on the A-pillar. The Liberty I drove was finished in the dark slate gray cloth and high-back bucket seats. Interior fit and finish was also exceptional...no loose pieces of trim, no rough edges. The back seat is VERY easy to fold down...just lift on the handle mounted on top and pull forward. The back seats, however, do not completely fold flat. Also, the rear door openings are not as wide as I would like. Weird item...the power window switches for the rear seat passengers are mounted on the rear of the center console. And the power window switches for the front seat passengers are mounted on the front of the center console. I would prefer door mounted switches.
Instrumentation is simple, with fuel, temp, tach and speedo gauges in a beige color. Since this was the Sport model the gauges did not have the silver trim rings, nor did it have the brightwork surrounding the radio/climate controls.
Now to the actual test drive....
The one thing I was particularly amazed at was how quiet the interior was. Even under full throttle acceleration, engine noise was kept to a distant rumble. The suspension absorbed all the potholes and rough roads with no problems whatsoever. There were no creaks, rattles, or groans of protest from the chassis. The Liberty is built SOLID.
Acceleration was quite good for a two ton vehicle. Pickup from a standstill was immediate, and the transmission made smooth, precise shifts that seemed to keep the engine in the meat of the powerband.
Braking was firm and linear, though the Liberty I drove had a tendency to pull to the right under heavy braking.
I didn't get the chance to engage the Command-Trac transfer case, but I will be going back to the dealership next week when they get some Limited models in with the Selec-Trac. I'll also see if I can let my salesperson let me take it to a local church parking lot that is unpaved, uses small logs for bump stops, and has a nasty little, extreme-angled rutted hill. Even though I don't go off-road per say, I do travel to the mountains for skiing, and this lot is the closest thing locally to equal those road conditions.
Overall, I think Jeep has a real winner on its hands with the Liberty. There were several other people waiting for a test drive when I got back. I'm looking forward to another test drive with the Limited model in the coming week.
- Doug
http://www.torquecontrol.eaton.com/whatsnew/chilton.html
Bob
Couple of things though:
1. The back seats don't fold all the way down!
2. You feel like you're really close up to the windshield.
3. Back opens side-to-side (but window opens up). Would rather have the traditional lift up or down for big long things like storm doors and sheets of plywood.
Drove a JGC for comparison afterwards. In my mind, no comparison. Felt big and luxurious for in my mind just a little more money. Ride was smoother--engine not as peppy but very powerful. Felt more secure in the JGC than in the Liberty. But Liberty is still in the running, as is the Escape (still like the Escape better than any of them). Will probably buy in fall, unless the JGC rebates and finance options sway me to buy now.
thanks
"This V6 makes 210 horsepower at 5,200 rpm and 225 foot-pounds of torque at 4,000 rpm, and yes, it can be mated with the five-speed manual."
But on jeep's web sight, it states that the manual transmission is not available on the v6:
http://www.jeepunpaved.com/liberty/specs/index.html (scroll down to the bottom, under transmissions)
Also, when "building" my Liberty on the site, it does no allow for a 5 spped manual for v6.
Is the Multispeed automatic like a tiptronic tranny, where the driver can switch gears by pseudo-shifting?
I have to tell you, it's the best steering Jeep I've ever driven. The ride seemed a tad bouncy, but very much in control. It was tight as drum. No rattles, and the quality, from what I could see was excellent. The rear passenger space was roomy, and very comfortable—light years ahead of the Cherokee in this regard.
One thing for sure, it's a tall vehicle, much like a Trooper. Getting things on and off the roof rack will be a chore.
Also, looking under the hood, there seems to be room for a V8 (a lot of space between the front of the engine and the radiator). Hmmm...
Bob