Jeep Liberty

joer4x4

My 2 cents worth...I am looking down the road 1 to 2 years at possibly a Jeep Wrangler. Now I believe Jeep will put a IRS on the Wrangler. Sorry but I don't get this at all? If this be the case, I may as well keep my Kia(which is a pretty good offroader as it is).

Now I drive a Kia and I can go pretty much where a stock Wrangler can go. The Wrangler has one thing on me that will get it a bit further. That's the solid front axle. It keeps the clearance the same at all times unlike an IFS. The IFS may keep both tires flat on the ground but the solid axle will put pressure on the down side tire when articulated increasing traction.

Also, after market upgrades are far cheaper! To lift an IFS 4" cost big bucks!

Every time, the solid axle will beat the IFS whether rock climbing or boggin' in the mud! Believe me, I'm out there all time and I see it and wheel with'em.

As far as the Xterra is concerned, it seems they need a lot of momentum to do anything with a degree of difficulty. Where I can crawl my Kia up a steep incline the Xterra looses traction when trying to crawl. They're not too impressive unless it the drivers? That's what I see out there. I never saw one of them go for the mud or deep water either.

http://joer4x4.homestead.com/index.html

rsholland

I don't know about the Kia, but I believe the Xterra's low range is not as "low" as it should be. Also the Xterra is not very powerful and is rather heavy. The Kia is also not very powerful, but I don't know how it compares to the Xterra in terms of weight.

Bob

basepro09

I know I want a small suv, but I'm not sure what I want to get. I've been comparing and I've narrowed it down between the Kia Sportage, Chevy Tracker or Jeep Liberty. I want to go off-road and I want something economical and safe. I'm kinda leaning towards the Liberty, pending test drive and price, because I want to keep it under twenty. Any suggestions?

rsholland

of the three vehicle you listed, my choice would be the Liberty. Keep in mind, nobody here has yet driven one. Also, it's a brand new vehicle, and Chrysler has yet to prove they can roll out a new model without some glitches showing up.

Bob

sasquatch_2000

I am looking at XTerra, Wrangler, 4Runner (used), and Sportage.

basepro09

My girlfriend saw a report on crash testing some of the trucks and mini-utes the other day. She said that the tracker failed miserably on the back up at 5mph test, but the Escape was the suv with the least amount of damage out of the two. Is there a website where you can find out info on safety ratings for the mini-utes? I'm going to be having a baby and I need something that is going to be safe. I had heard earlier this year by a salesperson that a law was going to be passed having to do with a certain amount of child safety restraints in the vehicle. Granted that was from a car salesman. The liberty is said to have some extra child safety restraints, which I like. I also like the back seat middle shoulder seat belt in the Liberty. I've seen the rear seat interior and it looks pretty roomy. I've compared all of the specs between the mini-utes and the Liberty closely resembles the interior size of the Escape or the Xterra for the exterior. The liberty actually has more rear leg room than any of them, as well as 10.1 inches of ground clearance. I know that's always been a complaint with suv owners about the room in the backseat, so that's a plus. Another thing that I heard, was that the V6 is the only engine coming out this July and the I-4 isn't coming out till this fall. If that's true I wonder if you can special order it with the I-4.

paisan

Those tests weren't safety tests.

They were tests of the amount of $ damage that was done in a backup test. It has 0% to do with the safety of the trucks. The reason the Tracker/Vitara did poorly compared to the Escape is that it has a rear mounted spare tire. Any vehicle with a rear mounted spare tire is going to have more damage than one without, if you backup into a pole. If you are careful when backing up and watch where you are going, you won't have a problem with rear mounted tires. As for safety, in an accident you'd probably have about a very good chance of the person behind you hitting you on the bumper rather than the spare tire due to nose-dive/rear-lift during an accident.

-mike

bblaha

Basepro:

The NHTSA has a site for the crash test results for all SUVs; Frontal and Side Impact

and the IIHS has their own crash test results for small SUVs: Small SUVs

Its doubtful the Liberty will be tested anytime soon, particularly since it isn't even out yet.

Just curious, but why do you want the I4 so much?

basepro09

Well I was initially thinking that I would get better gas mileage with the 4-cyl. But some of my coworkers had just told me that it pay off to get the 6-cyl over the long run, even though it will cost more. They said that the 4 banger will trying to hard and waste more gas. Our gas prices are rising here in California and whatever I can do to save on gas would be a good benefit to my wallet.

rsholland

on the 4 cylinder is not going to be nearly as good than that of the 6 cylinder. Besides, the 6 is just much nicer to live with on a daily basis.

Bob

s852

Based on the track record of previous new Jeep roll outs as well as what is happening with the new 2002 Ford and GM SUVs, do you think the new Liberty is going to be reliable in the first year?

rsholland

Chrysler keeps saying they're getting better, but what else are they going to say?

Think of it as Version 1.0.

I'd feel much better if it were a Toyota, Honda or Subaru, in terms of first year roll outs.

Bob

bblaha

What was the last all new SUV DC rolled out? The WJ?

Based on that, if I were getting a Liberty (I won't, on principal) it would be an '03 or '04 model year.

The problems with the WJ have been so insidious that people are now referring to all Jeeps as problematic.

bblaha

A guy on another message board claims to have ordered a Liberty from a dealer in Arizona. Supposedly, delivery will be around May 7. He listed his options and price ($26k ish) and says he got it for $500 over invoice.

I haven't seen any really detailed prices yet, so how he knows he got it for so little over invoice, I have no idea. My gut says he's making it up, but you never know...

bblaha

It is sour grapes (or maybe rotten milk). If they'd have put the JGC suspension on the Liberty, I'd probably get one.

chaser1

...on all terrain.
Gotta disagree big time with that statement. My Cherokee came with the Goodyear RT-Ss (225/70R/15), and they were the worst tires I've ever had on an SUV. They didn't do anything well unless it was a dry, flat, paved road. They were especially loose on rain-slick roads. Then when you factor in the cost of replacment ($125.00), they became even more worthless...

Replaced them with Pirelli Scorpion A/Ts - @ $69.00 per tire and for a bigger size @ that. Best A/T tires I've ever had - did everything well, and I believe they're the equal of BFG A/Ts.

Still pissed @ Chrysler for putting on those crummy RT-Ss...

bblaha

JeepWarehouse is listing prices, with options. They include "Factory wholesale price", which may or may not be the same as invoice.

At any rate, it looks like a 4wd Sport comes stock with P215/75R16 BSW All Season tires.

Also, apparently the Liberty won't have an "Up-Country" option. Gee I wonder why?!? Could it be just maybe because of the difficulty in lifting its front end?!?

Grocery getters: Go get it!

bobcatbob

Some folsk over on the Yahoo Liberty board stated they were told that Liberty's would begin arriving at dealeeships all across the country next week.

I just popped into a Jeep delaer here in Marytland and they have heard that the Liberty will be arrriving in July, not the end of this month. He said that they see what is heading their way in the computer, so they'd know.

Of course, this same dealership also has 20 Pt Cruisers on the lot all marked up $5,000 over sticker. When I asked about them, the dealer said "Well, there is alow supply and demand is high." ...I replied "Uh, ok, then why do you have 20 on YOUR lot?"

So, anyone with credible information, let's hear it.

bobcatbob

Maybe there are some serious regional differences. A guy over at JU claims to have already ordered a Liberty (from AZ I think). He's expecting to take delivery around May 3^rd.

bblaha

Maybe there are some serious regional differences. A guy over at JU claims to have already ordered a Liberty. He's expecting to take delivery around May 3^rd.

gsogymrat

If these prices are accurate they look about in line with the Escape/Tribute. I'm still not conviced people are going to be standing in line for this vehicle. There is going to be a lot of competition in this category next year: Ford Escape, Mazda Tribute, Jeep Liberty, Landrover Freelander, Saturn Vue, Hyundai Santa Fe, Suzuki Grand Vitara XL-7, Subaru line, etc.

s852

The dealers might "think" they are going to charge over sticker and they might mark it on the window, but who is so desparate as to pay over sticker for a 2002 Liberty that may have plenty of teething problems?

Even if $30,000 was in your price range, you could probably find a more upscale SUV discounted to below $30K.

Many potential Liberty buyers are considering it for value for the price. Raise the price and now it is no longer such a great deal.

stever

There's also a new Land Rover Freelander message board here--if you see something interesting about the Freelander, please let folks over there know about it.

Steve
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paisan

I think the Axiom is gonna give the Liberty a run for it's money. Similarly priced sticker (under or @ $30K) similar off-road capabilities, but the Axiom wins on Power, and the fact that it's on an established chassis and drive-train (rodeo chassis/suspension, trooper driveline) Something else to check out though.

-mike

s852

The Axiom is a bigger vehicle that was not really meant to compete directly with the Liberty.

Jeep dealers can make the Axiom a competitor if they mark up the Liberty's price into the Axiom's range.

paisan

Don't forget on the Axiom you get about a $1000 bonus built into the price, since it has 3/50K bumper to bumper warranty and 10/120K powertrain, which would cost about $1K-$1.5K if bought on the Liberty. That's why I put them in a similar class pricewise.

-mike

rsholland

No Up-Country?

I had heard there was going to be an Up-Country package.

Bob

bblaha

rsholland:
There is a group called "Off road group (AWL)", which is essentially identical to "Up country"; its got the skid plates, rear LSD, tow hooks etc.

However, there is one notable exception. On the XJ, the Up Country option basically includes a 1 to 2 inch suspension lift. The Liberty's "Off road group" doesn't come with that.

bobcatbob

I was driving by the local Jeep lot here in Timonium, Md and noticed that all of the Cherokees have these bright yellow stickers on them touting a deep discount. I am assumed they were expecting Liberty's in soon, but the dealer still contends "August or September." He did metion I could buy one without kowing prices or options packages, but he couldn't give me a price until it came in...HA!....

Of course, per DC, expect a deep gouging at the dealer when they start quoting price.

Anyhow, has anyone heard anything new?

countsmackula1

I have heard that probably by the second week in May, everyone will be able to get one. As for the dealers gouging prices, all I can say is "Heaven help them!" There will be a huge backlash if this happens. It's not like it's a specialty vehicle or anything. $5000 above retail-- please!!!Give me a friggin break!! People , be patient and you will get what you want , at the price you want. This fiasco reminds me of the PT Cruiser incidents in which people were paying close to 30 I for a vehicle on the Neon platform with a 2.4 engine!! It's essentially a mini van. But "OH NO it's retro styling" And after they're tired of the lackluster performance , they're stuck with something that's all show and no go. You could buy a Chysler mini van with a V-6 and many options for way less(big discounts, too), but I guess that's too domestic for the "cool crowd" who bought them. Anyway, the dealers will laugh all the way to the bank if cool heads don't prevail when the Liberty hits the lots.

tom_

So far Toledo has produced about 2,500 Liberty's which are waiting to be shipped (or are being shipped). The plant is still ramping up & currently makes about 100 a day.

In contrast, about 580 Cherokee's are built a day.

stever

Slumping carmaker puts billions into new SUV Jeep

Steve
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s852

Blah, blah blah. I would like to see great quality, but I am skeptical that they can do it now when they haven't been able to do it for so long.
They always say that they expect the quality to be great.
I remember when the first Neons came out in 1994 and they said they were the most tested cars ever, but they still were not any more reliable than the average Chrysler product.

tonysracing

According to the article posted by Steve, the Liberty plant is making 400 per day now and will be up to 800 this summer..

bblaha

"My feeling is you don't need every single model to be able to go all the way,"

-Thomas R Marinelli, VP in charge of Jeep marketing envisioning future Jeeps that won't have to tackle the Rubicon...

These are sad times for Jeep enthusiasts.

http://public.wsj.com/sn/y/SB988064086339146758.html

paisan

I saw pics from the runs the DC engineers make in the Jeeps on the trail... They aren't stock...
Mostly cut away fenders, front and rear lower cladding removed to give better angles of approach and departure, and higher profile non-stock tires, lots of dings, dents and scraps on the bodies as well.

I'd like to see them just grab a few off the line and do the trail!

-mike

rsholland

So much is being made of the Jeep image and 4x4 heritage. Yet Jeep has sold 4x2 models for years.

Nobody ever talks about them, as if they were the "strange old aunt who lives in the basement." Yet Jeep keeps on offering them.

I was in the Tampa area last Christmas. Saw a lot of Jeeps. Guess what? Most of them were 2WDs, not 4WDs! I was shocked. Every blue moon I may see a 2WD Jeep here in Maryland, but in Florida—2WD Jeeps rule.

So much for their rugged image...

As far as I'm concerned, by just offering 2WD Jeeps, they have done as much to hurt their off-road image, as any IFS can do.

Bob

paisan

I dunno, I took my '83 Dodge Ramcharger off-road often. It had IFS, and low gears in the rear. it went far off-road w/o incident. Don't be so quick to cut down 2wd models.

-mike

rsholland

You can take any truck off road. People have been doing it for years, long before the popularity of 4WD. As you know, a 4WD will just take you further off road, and do it a whole lot easier.

My point is this: Jeep lives and dies by its 4WD image. Simply offering a 2WD runs 180 degrees counter to that image.

Bblaha keeps saying that the Liberty should be rebadged a Dodge and not a Jeep. I say any 2WD Jeep should be rebadged a Plymouth—and join all the other Plymouths in that great junkyard in the sky.

Bob

paisan

If you are gonna say they are all 4x4 and the be-all end-all of 4x4s why offer a non-off road version.

-mike

bblaha

I think 2wd Jeep did generate alot of heartache for offroad enthusiasts, but its not like they killed off the 4wd versions in favor of 2wd. In retrospect, for someone who wants to build an ultimate offroad machine, a 2wd Cherokee is a great vehicle to start with. Maybe Jeep's image was harmed some by 2wd, but at least with 4wd its actual ability wasn't. IFS does hurt its ability.

Isn't it the Dodge Ram that offers a solid front axle when you choose 4wd but IFS when you choose 2wd? I could go along with that on the Liberty.

To claim IFS is just as good as a solid axle offroad is at odds with the practical experience of everyone that goes offroad. If you have IFS, and want to go further, you swap in a solid axle.

zeen

Chrysler is right. For every one of you who complains about Jeep hurting its image, there are probably 10 people who could care less about off road capability and will buy a Liberty or other Jeep based on style alone. They are absolutely making the right marketing decision.

rsholland

will also change to IFS for 2002.

Bob

rsholland

It almost seems as if Jeep is speaking with a forked tongue. On one hand they claim to be the great American 4x4, yet on the hand they keep quietly building 2x4 Jeeps for those folks in Florida.

Frankly, I think anybody who buys a 2WD Jeep is an idiot. Why put up with all the inconveniences of a solid axle, if you're not going to go off road? Seems dumb to me.

Bob

zeen

It's style, riding height, size and room. The Florida folks like the look of the SUV but stay on paved roads and drive slowly. Ground clearance still helps in cases of flooding and going over alligators.

jrtx

Thanks for calling me an idiot. I own both a 4WD and 2WD Cherokee. They serve different purposes. The great thing about the Jeep 2WD is you get the strength of the 4WD suspension and chassis without the fuel economy and maintenance penalty of the 4WD. In my case the 2WD is used as my commuter car and tow vehicle so 4WD is not really needed. It rarely snows in Houston so I don't need it for the weather. The tougher suspension in a blessing on our rough streets (many trails are smoother) and the ground clearance helps during street flooding. I thought I was pretty smart buying a Jeep 2WD for the purpose I needed it for. The 4WD purpose is more fun though.

rsholland

You can get all of the "on-road" capability with any IFS 2WD SUV. Plus it will handle better.

As for style... It seems silly to me to sacrifice comfort and handling just for style. Yet people still do it all the time.

jrtx- I spoke too quickly. My apology.

Bob

jrtx

apology accepted, only my wife calls me idiot. It does go to show that there is a market for 2WD and 4WD, otherwise Jeep would not make both. I think of the 2WD Cherokee as a heavy duty station wagon that you just can't buy anywhere else. My wife said she liked the pictures of the Liberty and is anxious to see one. Jeep may be trying to tap the female market here.

bobcatbob

There is no doubt about this fact, Jeep has stated that their goal is to expand their market and capture female buyers. It is clear that the Libery was partly designed to tap into the Soccer mom Market. With a bit of a stigma, mini-vans are losing the market battle to asphalt based SUV's as a mode of transpsort for the kids. There is nothing wrong with this and I have no qualms about Soccer Mom's at all.

RSHolland, can you keep your eyes open for Liberty's here in MD? I was up at the Jeep delaer in Timonium and they are clueless about any arrivals as they still cite September. They also say that "market conditions will determine exact price." Uh huh, layman's term for "Be prepared to be gouged."

Actually most dealers in this area are clueless in general.For example, all of the Trailblazers at the Fox Chevy in TImonium are marked up 2-5k OVER sticker right now and until the last two days, you couldn't even test drive the things! Uh, hello what is wrong with this photo. .

stever

"Women either buy or influence the purchase of 85 percent of all new cars and trucks sold in the United States today."

link (check out the 1948 GM cartoon!)

Steve
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