Jeep Liberty

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Comments

  • bblahabblaha Member Posts: 329
    Now you're being offensive.

    Why have you latched onto independent suspension as some sort of holy grail in vehicular design? You seem to want it for its own sake.

    I have no problem with new ideas. However, anything new ought to be just as effective as what it replaces. You are basically saying, "Don't worry. Sooner or later it will be just as good".

    Perhaps. But until then I'd like to keep what is already good. Onroad comfort is of little value to me when I'm in my Jeep. I have a minivan for taking the kids comfortably to grandmas house.

    I asked this of kem but I should have asked you.

    Can you name a single vehicle, traditionally used for offroad purposes, that has benefitted from independent suspension without giving up any offroad ability? Every single one I can think of was "dumbed" down as a result.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    How many times do I need to say that the market is going to dictate what is produced. If the market accepts no Low-range, then that is what will eventually happen. The auto-makers aren't going to make cars that are not market driven, except for ones that the customer is willing to pay extremely high prices (exotic cars come to mind) Would you be willing to buy a SFS/SRS if it were expensive, say $50K?

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Now you're being offensive.

    My comments were in response to your "flip" comments from your previous post. I'm not insulting you. In fact, I have a lot of respect for you. I just don't agree with you... and I DO have problem with your conservative thinking. That's all.

    Why have you latched onto independent suspension as some sort of holy grail in vehicular design? You seem to want it for its own sake.

    I have "latched on" to IFS/IRS because I see the enormous possibilities of such systems, off-road and on-road. It gets to me when I continuely read comments from people, such as yourself, who just can't see the light.

    I have no problem with new ideas. However, anything new ought to be just as effective as what it replaces. You are basically saying, "Don't worry. Sooner or later it will be just as good". Perhaps. But until then I'd like to keep what is already good.

    It's that kind of thinking that leads to nothing ever moving forward. You've got to take some risks, knowing full well that some of them may not work out. If aren't willing to take risks, nothing will improve, or move forward.

    Can you name a single vehicle, traditionally used for off road purposes, that has benefited from independent suspension without giving up any off road ability?

    I'm not sure what you mean by "traditional?" Hard-core off-road? Military? Off-road racing? General on/off road usage? They're all traditional, but they're all very different.

    The Hummer and Unimog have certainly benefited from IFS/IRS. But I guess you might have expected that answer from me. As I mentioned before, there are many off-road racers using independent suspensions. Certainly the new IFS/IRS 2002 4-door Explorer (yes, go ahead and laugh) is certainly better off-road (and on road) than the model it replaced. Same with the new Montero. I haven't heard any complaints about the new IFS equipped Land Cruiser or 4Runner.

    Bob
  • cygnusx1cygnusx1 Member Posts: 290
    I think the Liberty design is trying to cash in on the Xterra's success. Too many people want a combination of a decent off-roader and decent commuter vehicle, which IFS and solid rear provides.
  • milt721milt721 Member Posts: 83
    I'm wondering: Who is going to buy Jeeps after the SUV craze fades away and DC has alienated all of the loyal owners who have been buying Jeeps for decades? Conforming to market trends does not always work in the long run.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Since you won't be able to get a non-IFS SUV?

    -mike
  • milt721milt721 Member Posts: 83
    I already plan to put my '99 XJ in storage once i can find enough $$ to purchase a 2001.5 Passat. Then, as long as i can still get parts, i'll have my XJ for a lifetime. (Take that DC, up until now, I bought a new Jeep every 2 years. I didn't get the '01 because i couldn't option it with an overhead console and Infinity sound system like i could in '99.)
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    as both Paisan and myself have pointed out on a number of occasions, it's the marketplace that will determine what gets built. Every Highlander, Forester, Outback, or AWD (plug in any name), that gets sold, could have been a Jeep customer.

    Those are the cold hard facts. There just aren't enough hard-core Jeepers out there to sustain the current product line, at volumes that are needed to remain profitable. It's simply economic Darwinism.

    Bob.
  • drew_drew_ Member Posts: 3,382
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  • sundance_goldsundance_gold Member Posts: 19
    I'm not interested in off-roading and definitely don't want a "truck feel" so I'm wondering if the Liberty will handle more like the Xterra or like the Highlander. Drove the Xterra and thought my legs were going to fall asleep from those awful seats--plus the suspension was too truck-like for me. While the V6 Highlander provided a great ride, the price quickly went over 30K with just one option package. Also drove a loaded '01 Grand Cherokee that I probably would have bought except the leather seats were about a comfortable as a deflated intertube and the box-like compartment near the radio was broken.

    Anyone hear when the Liberty will be in showrooms?
  • milt721milt721 Member Posts: 83
    Maybe I'm not seeing something here, but if you are not interested in off-roading and don't want a truck feel, why are you shopping trucks over cars/wagons/minivans? Instead of looking for a truck masquerading as a car, why don't you get the real thing? Anyway, Liberty SHOULD be in showrooms by late summer.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    milt721 is right. If you don't want a truck ride, why are you even looking at them?

    Might I recommend a Subaru? We own two, and if it's just all-weather capability you're looking —and good comfort and great handling—they're just the ticket.

    Bob
  • bblahabblaha Member Posts: 329
    rsholland: Wow. Forgot to get back to you.

    "I have 'latched on' to IFS/IRS because I see the enormous possibilities of such systems, off-road and on-road"

    Oh? What enormous possibilities offroad are there? For what I want, I can only think of one; increased ground clearance. The Liberty certainly doesn't shine there.

    "I'm not sure what you mean by "traditional?" Hard-core off-road? Military? Off-road racing? General on/off road usage? They're all traditional, but they're all very different."

    By "traditional", I'm thinking back to the 70s, when you had the Chevy Blazer, Ford Bronco, Jeep Wagoneer, Land Cruiser, etc (others? - these are the ones that come instantly to mind). Which of those, or their evolutionary replacements, has successfully maintained an offroad image after moving to independent suspension? Certainly nothing Chevy or Ford makes. Toyota has done the best job, but the TLC is pricey. The 4Runner isn't bad, but in stock form still isn't a match for a Cherokee. Jeep, of course, doesn't count since they stuck with solid axles...

    I'm not interested in racing offroad.

    milt721:
    milt721 Mar 9, 2001 12:09pm

    If Jeep "sees the light" they'll make a Dana 30 a no cost option for the Liberty.

    Sundance_gold: In this I definitely agree with rsholland. Why would you be considering Jeep if you have no need of offroad ability? There are many things to like about a Subaru Forester (if its an SUV you really want). Better fuel economy, decent ride, and decent light offroad ability (should you ever change your mind).
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    So, you like Subies too. See, we're not that far apart after all. :) My wife has a new '01 Forester S Premium, and my son has a '96 Impreza Outback. They're great cars.

    In fact, I would love to see Subaru try their hand at producing a "Wrangler-like" vehicle. Their boxer 2.5 engine and their AWD (with a "true" low range—and not the current "barely low" dual-range tranny found in other markets) would make an excellent starting point, IMHO. I realize, however, that's pretty much a far-fetched idea, and probably will never happen. However, one can always dream...

    As for the IFS/IRS debate... why don't we give it a rest. it's obviously something we're not going to agree on. Peace?

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    A few posts back, I had mentioned that if vehicles like Subaru, etc. didn't exist, we could all very well be Jeep owners instead.

    Well as it turns out, Subarus, et al, seem to fit the needs better of many folks, than Jeep does, thus contributing to the steep declines in Cherokee sales. Jeep sales steadily increased over the past decade or so, because there was really no showroom competition. That's no longer the case. Choices abound, and Jeep sales are suffering as a result.

    Bob
  • cygnusx1cygnusx1 Member Posts: 290
    How can you not like a "truck like" feel and drive a Jeep then? 2 solid axles give you about as much a truck like feel as you can get. IFS lesses that feel for daily commutes. If you don't want a "truck like" feel then the Escape/Tribute or the Honda crv would be what you want. Thay have full indepenent suspension. The Xterra rides pretty nice, I think.
  • drew_drew_ Member Posts: 3,382
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  • tjeep27tjeep27 Member Posts: 17
    What is this "I wan't an SUV, but I don't like offroading" guy doing talking about Jeeps for. Ford came up with something they like to call an Escape. That's what you need. That is the mistake Jeep is making by turning to IRS/IFS. I wish it would have more faith in the offroading crowd. Cherokee sales haven't gone up because of a decline in competition, they've increased because Jeeps are the best. I enjoy the ear aches I get on the highway with my '90 Cherokee. Unless they keep it solid, I'll never purchase a Liberty. I'll opt for the Wrangler (hope they leave its suspension alone during the years to come). Jeep is not an SUV, it's a Jeep. Chrysler ought to have left it alone. Jeeps Rule.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Will be IFS/IRS within 5-10 years. It's just the way things are going, the market drives what is gonna get produced. I'm not saying that IFS/IRS is the be-all-end-all, I personally like it, but if I were you hard core jeepers, I'd be making a big stir to DC if you really really want to keep solid axles.

    -mike
  • bblahabblaha Member Posts: 329
    Ok. Peace. However, I reserve the right to rebut any attempt to say "With IFS, the [unproven] Liberty will be as good or better offroad as a Cherokee, while performing better onroad as well". Or any variation thereof.

    I also will rebut all attempts to say Jeep had to do something because of declining sales. In 1999, they sold a record number of Cherokees, 165k. In 1998 they sold around 146k and they sold 141k last year, despite anticipation of the forthcoming Liberty (surely there are some people who might have wanted a Cherokee but decided to wait to see the Liberty). I still don't understand it.

    A solid axle Jeep may be a niche product, but what DC is doing is angering the niche...

    Yeah I like Subies. Not what I would choose for myself, but I think it ranks pretty high as a daily commuter/weekend fun kind of vehicle.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Do anything that wasn't in their best interest, or at least their best percieved interest? I don't think DC would purposely go out and commit suicide on this issue, unless they thought that it was going to be better for them and their share holders.

    -mike
  • jrtxjrtx Member Posts: 18
    I would not call 10k plus vehicles a month a niche in a competitive market. There are many newcomers in the SUV market that would love to sell that many units.

    bblaha - The Cherokee got a workout. the son and friends took a camping trip with the boat. Boat/trailer 3100 lb, passengers and gear 1000 lb, Jeep 3300 lb = 7400 lb. It managed 12.5 mpg on 320 mi trip with that load. My son commented about the boat ramp being populated with large trucks/suv's with little tiny boats and they looked at him a little strange when the Cherokee pulled up with a 24 ft. pontoon behind it. The Jeep pulls it fine though. He said it really smoothed out the ride, like driving big Lincoln. I don't think these newer softer suspension systems will be up to the task though.
  • bblahabblaha Member Posts: 329
    jrtx:
    Somehow, I knew I was going to get taken to task for saying "niche". The number they sell doesn't exactly feel "nichey". Maybe there is a better word I can't think of...

    paisan: I don't think DC is intentionally doing something to hurt themselves. They may very well sell more Liberties than they do Cherokees. What they've done, that I think they completely underestimated, is upset the Jeep offroad crowd by doing exactly what the crowd didn't want them to do; switch to independent suspension.

    Jeep could have made improvements to the suspension without abandoning the solid axle. The GC is a has a better onroad feel than the XJ, yet it still is quite adept offroad (although I have a hardtime justifying that kind of $$ for it).

    But no, DC made the Liberty just like every other SUV out there; solid axle in the back, independent up front. You don't benefit from increased ground clearance because of the rear, and the expense of lifting and maintaining is there because of the front.

    If they were adamant about it, they should have done both the front AND the rear. At least then you can start to look for some advantages to the independent suspension offroad...
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Not a problem. I need a break from this seeming endless debate. Maybe we'll pick it up again after the vehicles actually start hitting the road—and off road...

    Speaking of Subies and niches, I test drove a new 5-speed WRX yesterday. For some reason I now seem to have a permanent smile on my face that just won't go away.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Ok, well the next Question, and I've posed it before, who makes a solid front axle vehicle that the jeepers are going to turn to? I don't think there are any solid front axle vehicles sold in the US, so the jeepers will come back to Jeep anyway. Unfortunately, that is how the thinking in corporate america is. Also the solid rear axle is advantageous over rear Indy for towing (as are rear leaf springs, although I think that they ditched those too)

    -mike
  • bblahabblaha Member Posts: 329
    Yeah, the Liberty rear has coils.

    What new vehicle will Jeep enthusiasts buy? I don't know. For starters, we'll be recycling and repairing the old ones for many years to come...

    The Range Rover is still solid (I've heard rumors not for long), but it costs too much.

    If, after several years, the Liberty does as well as a 4Runner offroad, I'd probably consider one. As with most IFS SUVs, you can fix alot by by swapping in a solid axle. Solid axle conversions for the Liberty are already in the works (I think Rusty at least is working on one), so that remains an option.

    But I don't know of anyone at either NAXJA or JU (places I mostly just lurk) that is excited about the Liberty and is looking forward to getting one. I don't think too many have thought very far along "what next if not Jeep?" lines.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    the 2002 IRS-equipped Explorer has a higher tow rating than the old solid axle version.

    Opps... didn't mean to start up the debate again. Sorry folks. :)

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The Exploder Towing capacity may or may not have to do with the IRS though. I personally like IRS, but that was one of the battle cries I've heard for solid rear axles.

    Once you are going to do a front solid axle swap, in other words modifications, might as well start with any IFS vehicle and work from there. I'm of the group that likes to keep my factory warrantee in tack, I'm sure DC will likely not honor warrantee items that are remotely linked to a solid front axle swap.

    -mike
  • bshapbshap Member Posts: 23
    OK, so even if solid axles are better for off-roading, do you want a scrappy ride on the highway to the off road rally? The IS wont make much of a difference, especially if the Liberty has more weight in the rear. As for the 02 Explorer, the IS does help towing, since the 01 uses the same engines. Range Rovers will be receiving IS/IS soon. Solid axles don't necessarily perform better off-road, its just that car companies haven't developed IF32.gIRS specifically for off-roading.
  • bblahabblaha Member Posts: 329
    "Solid axles don't necessarily perform better off-road, its just that car companies haven't developed IFS/IRS specifically for off-roading. "

    image

    Sugar doesn't necessarily taste better, its just the food manufacturers haven't developed substitutes specifically to taste good.

    The Concorde doesn't necessarily cross the Atlantic faster, its just the boating industry hasn't developed supersonic watercraft specifically for rapid crossings.

    I like the way the Cherokee feels on the road just fine. I do not object to its "trucklike" ride.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Engine size isn't usually the limiting factor in towing. Axles and chassis IIRC is the limiting factor.

    -mike
  • bshapbshap Member Posts: 23
    sorry, i just realized that the spellcheck changed all the IFS and IRS to IS. fix this editors.

    ps. im sure that the auto makers COULD make a car that lasts 50 years, but theres no money in that. independent suspension is more updated, easier to redesign and produce thanks to today's technologies in the assembly plant.

    another question. would a CVT work acceptably in an off-road vehicle?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,457
    Sorry about that, bshap. Lots of model designations to try to keep in the spell check word list without breaking posts elsewhere.

    Also, if you notice the error fast enough, you have 30 minutes to make any changes or fixes after you post a message. Just click on the Edit button that follows your message after you post it.

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  • dillingerdillinger Member Posts: 1
    The Cherokee was pulled in an effort to sell more of this POS. Daimler was smart enough (or had their doubts about the KJ) to realize that they already sold the vehicle that would steal this one's sales.


    This KJ with a $28K price tag is maladjusted in it's environment. All the other SUV "cuties" are older and more defined/refined. The sales will probably be dismal anyway.


    DC screwed their traditionally loyal buyers with this machine. And they have counted on alot of revenue from Cherokee repeat buyers that will not materialize. Jeep used to lead the way...It's sad to see them trying to follow the rest of the "useless" Kia's.


    I have organized a petition that is designed to unite people that don't want the changes in the once proud line-up. The URL is :


    http://www.petitiononline.com/hds2/petition.html


    We are running it until August of this year. The signatures will be used to bring weight to bear on Daimler to entertain a meeting with us. A huge press/media rally is planned for late August in Auburn Hills. It will be really bad press for Daimler.


    I'm also contacting Kirk Kervorian to ask what we need to do to support a lawsuit against Daimler. (more funds drainage off of their funds allotment)

  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    That's funny stuff. What would the grounds of the suit be? I'm no lawyer but IMHO it doesn't have a chance at getting anywhere, I mean isn't this a capitalist country? Didn't know that companies weren't allowed to produce what they feel is best in the interest of their stock holders. Interesting stuff to follow though, and good luck with your petition.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    the new issue of FOUR WHEELER yet? It has an interesting article on the new Freightliner Unimog, which as you may recall, was discussed here not too long ago. It's pretty nifty vehicle, to say the least.

    Also, their "Ultimate 4-Wheeler" comparison test was won by a Tacoma TRD. Hmmm...

    Bob
  • tjeep27tjeep27 Member Posts: 17
    If your a true Jeep offroader, then sign dillinger's petition. Yeah, it's a capitalist society. It's also a free country. Americans don't sit around and let a good thing go to waste. Diamler-Chrysler simply needs some advice. Maybe that the reason why they pushed production back to '02. They may want to see how jeepers respond. Jeeps Rule!
  • bshapbshap Member Posts: 23
    A petition can't solve anything. It wont cause DC to change their mind, not after the millions of dollars put into R+D and marketing. The Cherokee will stay around for another couple of years, plus there will always be millions out on the road (or off the road) so accessory manufacturers will continue to make Cherokee parts. Maybe if you all let your issues go away, the Cherokee might be reintroduced in a couple of years with an upgraded engine and more rugged capability.
  • pluskinpluskin Member Posts: 79
    I've heard rumors that the Land Rover Defender is going to be sold in the US in a couple of years. They certainly look like they'd be bad [non-permissible content removed] offroad. That might be something for all of the disgruntled Cherokee owners.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    A good portion of the classical Jeep Cherokee owners are also shall we say more frugel than a LR will allow... I don't mean it as a ditch on Jeep owners (heck I couldn't afford a LR either) are not in the income bracket that a LR dictates.

    -mike
  • bblahabblaha Member Posts: 329
    bshap: I agree with your first sentence. Although I support the petition and have already signed it, I'm afraid there just won''t be enough signatures to cause much alarm with DC. 2 or 3 thousand signatures is only 2% of the number of XJs Jeep sells in a year.

    Most of the rest of your post is nonsense.

    The Cherokee won't be around for a few more years. The Liberty is the Cherokee's replacement. Once Liberty production starts, Cherokee production ends. They're using the same labor.

    Why on earth would anyone want an upgraded engine? I've never heard anyone complain about the straight 6 found in Cherokees, other than its fuel consumption.

    More rugged capability?!? At its spot on the price spectrum, the Cherokee is as "rugged "as it gets...

    paisan:
    I don't take that as a ditch. Its very true. Owing to its lengthy production run, the Cherokee has a very attractive price. Far more people can afford them than can afford a LR.
  • pluskinpluskin Member Posts: 79
    I don't think a LR Defender would carry that much of a premium price. They are pretty crude vehicles.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Are you from the UK or the US? (I know your flag shows UK, but just curious) Here in the US, the LR no matter what trim or level of refinement is marketed and sold as an up-scale vehicle, not one for the common man/woman.

    -mike
  • pluskinpluskin Member Posts: 79
    I'm american, but I'm working in the UK.
    In the UK, the Land Rover line up is a little bigger. Besides the Disco and the Range Rover, there is also the Freelander and Defender. The Freelander is an entry level SUV that is coming to the US soon. Probably start at $25,000. More of a "soft roader" though. The Defender is more or less a design dating back to WW2 from what I understand. Sort of a cross between a Hummer and a Jeep Wrangler. Popular in Africa. I'm not sure what it would go for if marketed in the US, but this is a very very bare bones vehicle, so I doubt it would go for Discovery price levels.
  • loonluverloonluver Member Posts: 10
    The Cherokee is gone everyone. Dealers cannot get anymore. What they have on thier lots and any orders they have is it. It sucks the Cherokee is gone. The Liberty IS replacing the Cherokee. They will NOT continue to build them for a couple of more years. Cherokee GONE, Liberty HERE 4 good.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I know of a dealer that has at least 20-25 of them if anyone is interested.

    -mike
  • gsogymratgsogymrat Member Posts: 97
    I am leasing a 1999 Cherokee Sport and own a 1986 Cherokee with the 2.8L V6. I have decided to buy a vehicle when my lease runs out and have been researching the Tribute/Escape, Santa Fe, Xterra and Forester. Actually I have eliminated the Forester and the Xterra after taking a test drives: the Forester felt like I was driving a Corolla, the Xterra was too spartan. My concerns about the Liberty include the price and the quality. I fear that it going to go over 23K with options, which is more than I want to spend. Jeeps, including my Cherokees, have not been known for their reliability and I worry about buying a 1st year model. I hope Jeep realizes that if they discontinue the Cherokee and the Liberty starts in the mid 20s they will lose a section of the SUV market, including me.
  • milt721milt721 Member Posts: 83
    ...but they just don't care. They figure that incresed sales from people jumping on the "soft-roader" bandwagon makes up for lost Cherokee sales. I hope they have a plan for when the SUV fad subsides. Who will be buying Jeeps then?
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    What alternative do Hard Core Jeepers have to the non-IFS? So far the LR has been suggested, but other than that I don't see any other suggestions for a replacement. Maybe a pickup with a cap? (Do pickups have solid front axles still?)

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    HD pickups from Ford and Dodge (Ford F-250/350SD & Ram 2500/3500) still do use solid axles. The new 2002 Ram 1500 is going IFS. The outgoing Dodge Ram 1500 is solid axle on 4WD models.

    As to your question... other than those pickups, and the very expensive Land Rovers, there aren't any other choices. But of course, there's also still the Wrangler and Grand Cherokee... at least for the time being.

    Bob
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