Jeep Liberty

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Comments

  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    with '92 Civic? I don't! Well, let me tell you, the Civic has more front room than the Cherokee, that's for sure! My knees hit the steering wheel in the Jeep. Wrangler is OK, though. Funny, that. Also, the Civic can hold 2 big guys in back, and every time one of my friends sits back there, they always comment how much room it has and that they are surprised at that! I have had 5 big guys in the Civic with 2 huge coolers to go to the races at LimeRock, CT, about a 3 hour drive each way. No major problems except a little slow on some big Berkshire hills, to be expected. I just want something more, as explained earlier.
  • nycpaulnycpaul Member Posts: 3
    Car and Driver and Motor Trend both have road tests of the Liberty. Motor Trend took it on the Rubicon Trail in California to test it (for comparison took a Grand Cherokee and some Wranglers). They were shocked that the Liberty not only out-performed the other Jeeps, but came out the least damaged. Even with stock tires, suspension, etc.

    I have never really thought I'd be a person to desire a smaller SUV (I go for European cars -- VWs mostly), I always thought if I needed an SUV I'd go for a Yukon- or Yukon XL-sized one. But there's something about the Liberty that I will have to investigate when it comes time for a new car. (Oh, and note: you can get a 5-speed WITH the V-6!)
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I'm astounded by some of the critisim that the Liberty has received from Jeepers. Aside from the legitimate IFS/solid axle debate, some of the comments made regarding the looks border on the ludicrous. To compare this to a CRV or a Rav4 is just stupid. It's far more capable off road than any of those type of vehicles. The Xterra is its closest true competitor, not the Rav4, the CRV, or even the Escape.

    Bob
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    I'm not starting a war at all either, just that the cheap price/options on the Cherokee make it a terrific bargain. I don't feel SUV's are worth the money, especially these luxury ones pushing $30-40 large. The Cherokee (hopefully the liberty too) has the capability, fairly basic design, and good price that makes it very useful. Here's the actual difference between $26,500 and the $20,500 I paid.

    A lot more room interior wise (1 cubic foot more than a durango)
    4wd TOD which can be engaged 24x7
    4 wheel discs
    4 wheel anti-lock
    Heated power 8 way Drivers Captain chair (4 way pass)
    Automatic HVAC control
    6 disc in dash changer (no cartridge)
    HUGE Skylight (34" x 25")
    Skid plates (front, middle, rear)
    60/40 rear split seat that also reclines
    3/50K Bumper to Bumper, 10/120K Powertrain warranty

    Can you get a trooper for $20,500 without all the above? Just curious, cause I wouldn't pay for many of the extras above. I Didn't want all the options I got, but the only one available with the tow package/color choice had all the extra crap. I'm like you, the boxy design WORKS! My in-laws have a 00 grand cherokee, and I can get bigger stuff in the cherokee because of the boxy opening- spare tire withstanding. If the trooper can actually compete with the price, I shoulda looked at it too. Closest Isuzu dealer is 1.5 hours though, so It didn't cross my mind I guess. Kick-butt warranty too.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I just wanted to pre-face it as not starting a war, cause I've gotten accused of that before. :)

    "S" doesn't have the following:

    In Glas Antenna
    Power Folding mirrors
    Power Seats
    Heated Seats
    Arm Rests
    Rear Tint
    Sky Light
    6 disc Changer

    Can be had for around $22.5-$23.5 So it's not quite in the same range, but if you consider the warranty, larger size and AWD it's pretty close. If you know off the AWD/TOD and go with the standard Part Time 4wd and a 5 speed, you can get it for 21.5-22.5. This is due to the $3500-$4000 Factory to Dealer incentive.

    -mike

    BOXY RULES!!!! :)
  • bobcatbobbobcatbob Member Posts: 187
    In reading the Motor Trend article, they estimate the Liberty pricing to go between $23,000 and $33,000....This is very very troubling,a s I think most people expected the vehicle to come in at or about the current Cherokee price range (18-25K).

    If this does turn out to be the true range, then DC will not sell 200,000 Liberty's a year. At the upper end you are in the new Explorer, Montero, Land Rover Freelander, Jeep Grand Cherokee, ForeRunner, new Highlander, new Trailblazer, new Envoy, and Tahoe price points, to name a few.

    And, to go that high means that the Xterra, Escape, RAV4, VUE, and CR-V are several thousand less than the Liberty.

    While the MT article was very kind to the Liberty, it did have acceleration, rear seat egress, and fuel mileage concerns.

    Anyone else have any comments about this pricing issue?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    That article was written before the recently announced decision to stop Cherokee production. All the press I've read, said that the Liberty was to be slotted between the Cherokee and Grand Cherokee.

    Well, that ain't going to happen now. The Liberty now has to fill the slot formerly occupied by the Cherokee. So, I'd expect to see more reasonable pricing.

    Bob
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    No price is too high to pay for Liberty ... Ooops, wrong discussion group.

    Edmunds has some info on the Liberty here ... http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshows/northamericaninternationalautoshow2001/44469/page001.html which indicates a $$$ cost of "mid-20s for a loaded Limited 4WD with the V6." I agree that if a loaded Limited tips in at over $30K, the game is over. But if it's in the mid 20s, I'll be driving one.

    Another great option available on the new Jeep: rear side curtain airbags. Finally, someone cares about the kids in the backseat. Also, apparently the roof is almost twice as sturdy as our gov't regulators require for rollover protection. This is the vehicle. Price it right, Daimler, and we will come.
  • bobcatbobbobcatbob Member Posts: 187
    I agree with the statement about the article being written prior to last weeks announcement...

    But, I am still a bit worried about the pricing issue. I think that there will be a lot more competition next model year, so the pricing can't get too crazy.

    By the way, I read someplace today that said the Liberty ought to be on sales floors by June, July at the latest.
  • eagle63eagle63 Member Posts: 599
    I realize this has already been argued to death, and I really hate to start the war again but I just started reading this topic today.
    Some of you are making the arguement that the liberty will be capable off-road and that in the future, everything will be IFS. maybe, but only a long way in the future, because realize this: the ONLY REASON Jeep ditched the front axle and went to IFS is for ON-ROAD COMFORT. that's it, nothing else. they didn't change the design to make it a better off-roader than the XJ was. It's purely for a smooth ride so as to appeal to 95% of the SUV market. In this sense, it was probably the right call by DC to drop the cherokee. It's pretty hard to sell a cherokee to a soccer mom after she just got done test driving the cushy riding "cute-ute's" like the CRV, Rav 4, lexus RX300, etc.
  • jblaze13jblaze13 Member Posts: 152
    I read the Motor Trend article earlier this week. They were the only source I'd seen such a high price from so I hoped that they had their information wrong or made a typo. I find 33k very hard to believe. That's treading into Grand Cherokee territory...in fact, that's GC Limited territory. As if the quality plagued GC needs more competition.
  • SporinSporin Member Posts: 1,066
    If the Cherokee is indeed, gone completely, I would expect the Liberty to slot-in right in it's place, maybe a tiny bit higher($$).

    As it is, you can buy just about any Jeep at invoice, so if a Liberty is too expensive, a lot of people will just go for a GC. I'm sure that Jeep knows this.

    The Liberty's look is really growing on me, far more interesting then other small 'utes. f they can nail the build quality, they've got a winner.
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    What is a VUE?
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    Why would price conscious people go for a GC when the Liberty is supposed to be between it and the Cherokee?
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    Give me a vehicle that: has removable top, can fit 6 good sized guys for a road trip; holds 2 big coolers and a dog; can strap skiis onto, can make it up to Killington in a blizzard; gets 28 MPG; has 190 HP; can tow a 18' boat; can haul firewood loose in the back (not a whole lot at any time is necessary); can climb mountains; can tote a canoe, bikes, and kayaks; looks good (boxy!); doesn't have AC, leather, stereo, adjustable or power anything; has good quality instrumentation; has 31" tires and a full ladder frame; AND COSTS UNDER $21,000!!!! The only thing which comes close is a used Bronco or Blazer with bench seats, and it still fails on the MPG. Oh, well.
  • bblahabblaha Member Posts: 329
    rsholland: What is wrong with comparing it to the CRV and Rav4? That's the crowd of buyers (cute-uters) they're going after, right?

    bobcatbob: I still think the pricing will end up being about $3k more than a Cherokee. Low 20s for a base model, upper 20s for something with all the options. Nobody will buy it if the price jumps into the 30s.

    sasquatch: I think you're looking for a larger vehicle. The Liberty will (hopefully) seat 4 adults comfortably, 5 squeezed in (particularly if they are over 200 lbs). The 6th you'll have to put on top with the kayaks.

    eagle63: It wasn't really a war. More like strongly different analysis of the facts. Fortunately, aftermarket providers will fix Jeeps error by providing kits to do a solid axle swap, much like they do for the 4Runner.

    Oh. Can anyone verify that the Liberty is using drums in the rear, rather than disks?
  • SporinSporin Member Posts: 1,066
    If a mid-to-loaded Liberty, selling near MSPR due to it's newness cost about the same as a minimally equipped V8 Grand Cherokee (GC) selling at invoice, which would you pick?

    Personally, I'd take the proven, slightly larger GC for the same money... wouldn't you? THAT'S why I expect the Liberty t be about the same price as the "old" Cherokee so it won't cannibalize the GC.

    I think the "old" Cherokee is a gonner. I expect the Jeep lineup to be Wrangler, Liberty, Grand Cherokee by 2002.

    All just my opinion, your's will vary. :-)
  • pluskinpluskin Member Posts: 79
    You know I worked on a vehicle that was really close to what you describe. Unfortunately, the program was canceled. Oh well.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    About the closest thing may be an avalanche or other such 4 door pickups. Just a thought.

    -mike
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    Really? What vehicle? What company? I tell you, the original Jeeps had it ALL over these new ones. 4 cylinder engines got us pretty damn far, why can't they just make a smooth, powerful, economical 4 banger? And why all the doodads? I want a Jeep you can clean out with the garden hose, damnit!
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    I can squeeze in 5 200 pounders into my '92 Civic and ride comfortably on the highway NOW! I can also run up fire roads no problem. I also get 41 mpg highway at 85-95 mph! All I want is more ROOM, and MORE UTILITY!!! Hello, JEEP??????
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Is basically a full size crew cab, but the rear wall folds down into the bed. I think it also has a pseudo soft top, and will carry 6 200lbers easily. The milage will be nil though.

    -mike
  • bobcatbobbobcatbob Member Posts: 187
    Sasquatch you hairy beast you, the VUE ("view") is the new Saturn sport utility vehicle that is coming out this summer. It is supposedly a "new look on SUV's" thus the term VUE...I know, I know intriguing huh?

    If The Liberty comes in loaded at 25-27K then I am all happy...Heck, I don't really want loaded per se. Just the bigger engine, fog light, cd changer/player, maybe leather, and the moon roof. Most of these are standard on the Limited, so who knows.

    I still think the pricing cannot go much higher than the Escape/Tribute simply for competition's sake. Are you listening Daimler Chrysler and Jeep???

    But, I think it is interesting that most dealers will charge MSRP, even in a recession becasue "Well, its new and hot and everyone wants one."....Give a vehicle 3-6 months and it'll calm down...I talked to a dealer about an Aztec (not seriously, trust me) when it came out and he wanted more than sticker because "it's going to revolutionize sport utes." Now, I think, if you go to a Pontiac dealer for an oil chage, you get an Aztec free.

    Anyhow....This board is very lively and civil, which is great!
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I wouldn't be so happy about it! It has an electric power steering pump which translates to a lot of problems. I have an '88 Subaru XT6 which has "Cybrid Electric Power steering" which is cool because it doesn't take any power from the engine, but they had a lot of problems with it over the few years it was offered. Just a word to the wise. Also stay away from anything with air-suspensions... over time, they too will breakdown and are costly to repair...

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Let me rephrase my comment:

    Yes, I'm sure Jeep would like to get as many Rav4/CRV customers as possible, but, at the same time, it's also going after "legitimate off-roaders" such as the Rodeo and Xterra.

    My point was, it seems that a lot of folks feel that the Rav4, the CRV, etc., are the "only" vehicles the Liberty is able to compete with. That's absolutely wrong.

    Bob
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    I don't want power steering, period! Keep it, and give me $200 off!!! Air suspensions? We don't need no steenkin' air suspensions!! My buddy (same one as had the SVO) had a Lincoln MkvII with air suspension, and the thing was sitting low. IT DEFLATED, PERMANENTLY!!! > $1,000 to fix it!!

    Remember, the mantra is: plain, ultra reliable (like a Honda or Toyota), efficient (in all ways, meaning MPG, off roading, etc.), and inexpensive!!!
  • bblahabblaha Member Posts: 329
    Well, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you weren't one of the 3 200+ lb guys stuffed in the back of Civic when you say "comfortable", right? If not, then you have a tad different definition of comfortable than I do.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Deflated *permanently*? Do you understand the word *permanently*? My other car is a Mark 8 w/air suspension. After 115K miles, the front shocks began to leak. I replaced them myself (they're only shocks, after all). Cost $350. Rides like new. And believe me, that's better than most other cars.

    So quit makin your blanket statements, abominable man. Since you like your Civic so much, why don't you ask Honda where your perfect SUV is? Yeah, right that's it, go buy a Passport and quit gripin about Jeeps.
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    permanently for that set of air shocks. sure they could be fixed, but that wasn't the point.

    Furthermore, I don't like the Passport or the SRV, but am interested in JEEPs. My buddy has a '97 Wrangler, and loves it. He has 2 other friends who have them. I am interested in, and not griping about JEEPs. OK?
  • bones14bones14 Member Posts: 2
    Does anyone have any good reason to believe that the Jeep Liberty quality will be any better than that Jeep Grand Cherokee? I'm holding off buying an Xterra until I can actually drive a Liberty.... from all the horror stories from Grand Cherokee owners and yet Cherokee owners, I can't really rationalize buying a Liberty. What is worse DC lost more that 1.4 Billion dollars in the last quarter of 2000....so they asked (forced) their parts suppliers to cut costs.... not exactly the best way to build quality..... can I never buy another car built by an American car company? Just look at the Escape and the Focus recalls......
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    for all Chrysler products is always an iffy issue. I know this is always a sore topic among the Jeep faithful, but it's been the major reason I have yet to buy a Jeep. Let's hope for the best.

    Bob
  • bblahabblaha Member Posts: 329
    Jeeps may break, but they're also easy to work on and parts are very cheap. They make a great vehicle to learn all the basics of automobile maintenance. In addition, they are very durable. Its very common to have engines with 200k+ miles on them.

    Of course, since the Liberty has a new V6 engine and IFS, all that may change...
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    that zinger in there, didn't you?

    Maybe since this is a truly "new" Jeep, it won't break as often—because the new technology will be far more superior, and more durable, than the old, and often trouble-prone technology, which it is replacing.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Bob,
    You are right, the quality has gone down and up over the years... My family has had 3 K-cars, a Lebaron (80's), Acclaim, and '83 Ramcharger. The ramcharger was awsome 250K miles and we chucked it cause the body and interior and doors were basically falling apart. The K-cars just sucked (head gaskets iirc), the acclaim is barely making 100K with almost 10K in repairs under warranty, the lebaron was good until some yo yos stole it and drove over a median, it was never the same after that.

    -mike
  • bblahabblaha Member Posts: 329
    "because the new technology will be far more superior, and more durable, than the old,"

    Ummm. Let me see if I understand you. Its your belief that the Liberty's cast iron block w/ aluminum cylinder head and higher revving engine will be more durable than the Cherokee's old technology, cast iron block w/ cast iron cylinder head engine? Merely because its newer?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    used by the Liberty is common (and proven) throughout the industry. Just because it's OHC doesn't mean it "has" to be a revver. Jeep has said from the get go, that this engine was designed to be a "truck' engine.

    What do you think of the "new" OHC 4.7 used in the Grand Cherokee? Do you think the "old" 5.2 engine, which the 4.7 replaced to be superior? If you do, you're in a crowd of one. The new 3.7 is based on that engine. Again, early reports are quite positive.

    If the engineers don't have any problems with aluminum heads, neither do I. I trust their expertise more than I do yours.

    Bob
  • bblahabblaha Member Posts: 329
    Revving:
    The Cherokee hits peak torque (225 ftlbs) at 3000 rpm.
    The Liberty hits peak torque (225 ftlbs) at 4000 rpm

    The Cherokee hits peak power (190 HP) at 4600 rpm
    The Liberty hits peak power (210 HP) at 5200 rpm

    The power to weight ratio for the Cherokee (0.057 HP/lb) is marginally higher than the Liberty's (0.054 hp/lb). If the Liberty has the same gears as the Cherokee, it will be sluggish (relative to the Cherokee) getting up to speed. They won't give it the same gears.

    Its performance will be about the same as the Cherokees, but over the course of 100,000 miles it will have more engine revolutions.

    Aluminum Cylinder Head:
    Industry standard? You mean like Ford's 3.8L V6?

    Who says engineers don't have problems with aluminum? Aluminum isn't used because "new technology" is better. Its used because aluminum is lighter and if you want to meet higher emission and fuel economy standards, you have to reduce weight.

    We're talking durability. Aluminum cylinder heads don't bode well for durability. Newer designed head gaskets help limit the problem (aluminums thermal expansion is much higher than irons), but they don't suddenly give aluminum the advantage as you alluded to ("new technology will be far more superior, and more durable, than the old ").

    I didn't say I didn't like the 3.7l; I said as an all new engine w/ aluminum heads, it remains to be seen whether its as durable as the I6 it replaces. "Early reports" have nothing to do with long term reliability and durability.

    At least until I'm in over my head, I trust my own engineering expertise. You?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I don't know how old you are, but I suspect you're around 25 or so, perhaps younger, judging by your responses. I've been driving since 1962. Check my profile for the list of vehicles I've owned over the years. I've probably owned more vehicles than you are years old. And... as you already know, this old fart is not afraid of new technology. In fact, I embrace it with all my heart.

    I've seen more than my share of new innovations over the years. Some have panned out. Others haven't. Having said that, I am not at all fearful of an engine revving to over 5000 rpm, or fearful of aluminum heads. I've owned many a motorcycle that revved far beyond that with 5000 rpm total reliability.

    Today's cars are the best that have ever been produced. You can thank technology for that. Many of these vehicles have aluminum heads (and blocks), rev like crazy, and are as reliable as your kitchen stove.

    I have no fear that Jeep can produce a modern, up-to-date, high-tech engine. Have they? Don't know yet. As you say, time will tell. But at least I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

    Bob
  • bblahabblaha Member Posts: 329
    If it is your intention to start insulting me, then I shall bow out of this discussion.

    As it is, I am a 31 yo graduate student nearing completion of a doctorate in mechanical engineering. I work in a laser laboratory developing a surface alloying process where, as one of its applications, we create a titanium carbide and/or tungsten carbide aluminum alloy on the cylinder surfaces of aluminum block engines, giving the cylinder excellent wear properties and obviating the need for steel cylinder sleeves.

    I am fairly well versed in the pros and cons of aluminum versus steel/iron. Other than weight, aluminum is an inferior material for making internal combustion engines. Wear, fatique, and even cost factors heavily lean toward using iron.

    Perhaps you are unaware of the difficulties a bimetal engine presents. Since aluminum's thermal expansion rate is twice that of steel, an aluminum head exands more than the iron block to which it is bolted. Neglecting the additional stresses this places on the bolts, it causes the head gasket to wander around. A blown head gasket is the inevitable result. Better designed gaskets do reduce the problem, but they can't keep the head from expanding faster than the block!

    Can you show me one of your motorcycles that has over 200,000 miles on an original engine? It would be impressive to see.

    I'm not saying the new 3.7 won't be durable. I'm saying the odds are stacked against it being as durable as the engine it replaces.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    My apologies if you've been insulted. However many of your comments came across as that of a young arrogant know-it-all. Of which—I'm sure you know, there are many in these types of forums. Again my apologies. You certainly have the qualifications to back up your statements. Perhaps you should update your profile, so people know something about you.

    However, I still stand by my comments. There are thousands of aluminum-engined Toyotas, Hondas, Subarus, etc., that have extremely high mileages. My old '88 Accord was sold with nearly 180,000 miles on it. My daughter's '92 Prelude has over 120,000 miles on it. Other than the normal timing belt replacements, no engine problems whatsoever. I'm a pretty typical owner, not unusual at all. I certainly don't have to tell you about the 9000 rpm redline of the Honda S2000. Will we see any with 200,000 miles on them? I don't know, but I sure wouldn't bet against it.

    Granted, most Honda, Toyota and all Subaru boxer engines are all aluminium, and not iron block/aluminum heads. Perhaps Jeep should have gone that route to avoid the iron/aluminum issue. Given that most people don't put that kind of ultra-high mileage on their vehicles, maybe the Jeep solution isn't such a bad one afterall.

    One final comment. With all vehicles there are going to be trade offs in terms of design and engineering issues. I think the choices (compromises?) made on Liberty are reasonable for 99% of the public.

    Bob
  • mark156mark156 Member Posts: 2,006
    Bob, interesting choices of cars you bought over the years. I never knew they made a '76 Accord. Did you have to change the tires on your Explorer? My brother has '99 Mountaineer with 22,000 miles and just received his new set from Ford.

    Mark
    2010 Land Rover LR4, 2013 Honda CR-V, 2009 Bentley GTC, 1990 MB 500SL, 2001 MB S500, 2007 Lincoln TC, 1964 RR Silver Cloud III, 1995 MB E320 Cab., 2015 Prevost Liberty Coach
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    '76 was the first year of the Accord. Mine, a silver one, had a serial # just over 5000. Honda had just launched this model, and I think it was the second or third Accord this dealer ever sold. I virtually traded in my '74 Honda CB 550-4 motorcycle for it. It (the Accord) used to be very hard to (re)start (if you turned it off and let it sit for a few minutes) once the engine got up to operating temperature. The gas in the float bowls would boil over, and flood the engine. This was a common problem on early Accords.

    The tires on my '98 Explorer were not part of the recall—so far.

    The '74 Austin Marina was won by my mother-in-law, at a raffle, and she gave it to my wife and I. It (the worst car I ever owned), was once towed into the dealer, whereby the mechanic wrote on the work order that the carburetor fell apart!

    Bob
  • bobcatbobbobcatbob Member Posts: 187
    I leave you kids alone for a few days and all you can do is fight....

    Ok, just joking.... Suffice it to sat that NO ONE knows how a production version of the new engine will hold up. No matter how many prototypes are built, Jeep, nor any manufacturer, will not know the truth until production starts.

    For example, all those who test-drove drove the Excuse, I mean Escape, thought it was an amazing car. But, the press test-drives were on hand-built prototypes that were different from the production vehicle. Now the Excuse, er Escape, is seen as a example of how NOT to launch a vehicle. Someone is now saying there is a 6 moth wait for the vehicle...Sheesh.

    Is technology better? Not always, read a book called "Why things bite back: technology and the revenge of unintended Consequences, the revenge of technology" by Edward Tenner. Mr. Tanner shows that though we think we are progressing with "new technology" we may in fact be regressing and hurting ourselves...

    I like this forum and from what I have seen, I like this vehicle alot.

    Now, everyone get along, or else you're all grounded!
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Excellent points. And... I will try (not promise, but try) to be on better behavior.

    Bob
  • bblahabblaha Member Posts: 329
    rsholland:
    Apology accepted. I guess I should also acknowledge that much of my attitude stems from bitter disappointment that the Cherokee, which enjoys a fiercely loyal customer base, is getting the axe. I mean, come on. Sales can drop 15% a year for 5 straight years and they'd still be selling 60k a year. The Cherokee costs them very little to make. Its also the only inexpensive solid axle vehicle you can get (neglecting the Wrangler of course, which serves a different crowd). How difficult could it be to slowly cut back on production while the Liberty actually cuts its teeth?

    Accord, Prelude, S2000. You're naming Hondas. Honda is, arguably, the best engine manufacturer in the world (and they don't do a bad job with the rest of the vehicle either). If the 3.7 were made by Honda, I would never have even brought it up. But, considering what DC has come out with recently, can they do as good a job as Honda? .

    Aluminum block engines will be arriving in droves in the next several years. Maybe the Liberty will get one then. I think currently though there is a serious lack of third parties that can mass produce aluminum block engines, so the ones that are made in house are in high demand.

    bobcatbob: We're not fighting, we're arguing strenuously. You want fighting? There's lots of other forums that do a better job than we've managed. :)
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I think you hit the nail on the head. The cherokee is an in-expensive vehicle, that DC makes very little $ on. Because people in the non-soccer mom set are more likely to shop around and wait for deals. The suburban Yuppie turned soccer moms, will just go buy or lease these things at or close to MSRP, thereby translating to higher profits. Everything comes back to economics...

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    For once... I agree with everything you mentioned in your last post. :)

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    has often been referred to an "engine" manufacturer, that just happens to make cars, motorcycles, etc.

    Bob
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    "Learn the fundamentals of vehicle maintenance"? I would rather forget. You are making me lean away from Jeeps and towards trying to fit 30X9.5r15 tires on my Civic.
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    Ever hear the phrase "They don't build them like they used to"? Engines I respect: Buick V6, JEEP I6, Porsche I4, Boxers, V8, Chevy V8, Ford truck I6, Toyota I4's, Honda I4's, BMW I6, Quad4 (at the time it was new), Olds Aurora, Cadillac V8.
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