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Comments
I have never really thought I'd be a person to desire a smaller SUV (I go for European cars -- VWs mostly), I always thought if I needed an SUV I'd go for a Yukon- or Yukon XL-sized one. But there's something about the Liberty that I will have to investigate when it comes time for a new car. (Oh, and note: you can get a 5-speed WITH the V-6!)
Bob
A lot more room interior wise (1 cubic foot more than a durango)
4wd TOD which can be engaged 24x7
4 wheel discs
4 wheel anti-lock
Heated power 8 way Drivers Captain chair (4 way pass)
Automatic HVAC control
6 disc in dash changer (no cartridge)
HUGE Skylight (34" x 25")
Skid plates (front, middle, rear)
60/40 rear split seat that also reclines
3/50K Bumper to Bumper, 10/120K Powertrain warranty
Can you get a trooper for $20,500 without all the above? Just curious, cause I wouldn't pay for many of the extras above. I Didn't want all the options I got, but the only one available with the tow package/color choice had all the extra crap. I'm like you, the boxy design WORKS! My in-laws have a 00 grand cherokee, and I can get bigger stuff in the cherokee because of the boxy opening- spare tire withstanding. If the trooper can actually compete with the price, I shoulda looked at it too. Closest Isuzu dealer is 1.5 hours though, so It didn't cross my mind I guess. Kick-butt warranty too.
"S" doesn't have the following:
In Glas Antenna
Power Folding mirrors
Power Seats
Heated Seats
Arm Rests
Rear Tint
Sky Light
6 disc Changer
Can be had for around $22.5-$23.5 So it's not quite in the same range, but if you consider the warranty, larger size and AWD it's pretty close. If you know off the AWD/TOD and go with the standard Part Time 4wd and a 5 speed, you can get it for 21.5-22.5. This is due to the $3500-$4000 Factory to Dealer incentive.
-mike
BOXY RULES!!!!
If this does turn out to be the true range, then DC will not sell 200,000 Liberty's a year. At the upper end you are in the new Explorer, Montero, Land Rover Freelander, Jeep Grand Cherokee, ForeRunner, new Highlander, new Trailblazer, new Envoy, and Tahoe price points, to name a few.
And, to go that high means that the Xterra, Escape, RAV4, VUE, and CR-V are several thousand less than the Liberty.
While the MT article was very kind to the Liberty, it did have acceleration, rear seat egress, and fuel mileage concerns.
Anyone else have any comments about this pricing issue?
Well, that ain't going to happen now. The Liberty now has to fill the slot formerly occupied by the Cherokee. So, I'd expect to see more reasonable pricing.
Bob
Edmunds has some info on the Liberty here ... http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshows/northamericaninternationalautoshow2001/44469/page001.html which indicates a $$$ cost of "mid-20s for a loaded Limited 4WD with the V6." I agree that if a loaded Limited tips in at over $30K, the game is over. But if it's in the mid 20s, I'll be driving one.
Another great option available on the new Jeep: rear side curtain airbags. Finally, someone cares about the kids in the backseat. Also, apparently the roof is almost twice as sturdy as our gov't regulators require for rollover protection. This is the vehicle. Price it right, Daimler, and we will come.
But, I am still a bit worried about the pricing issue. I think that there will be a lot more competition next model year, so the pricing can't get too crazy.
By the way, I read someplace today that said the Liberty ought to be on sales floors by June, July at the latest.
Some of you are making the arguement that the liberty will be capable off-road and that in the future, everything will be IFS. maybe, but only a long way in the future, because realize this: the ONLY REASON Jeep ditched the front axle and went to IFS is for ON-ROAD COMFORT. that's it, nothing else. they didn't change the design to make it a better off-roader than the XJ was. It's purely for a smooth ride so as to appeal to 95% of the SUV market. In this sense, it was probably the right call by DC to drop the cherokee. It's pretty hard to sell a cherokee to a soccer mom after she just got done test driving the cushy riding "cute-ute's" like the CRV, Rav 4, lexus RX300, etc.
As it is, you can buy just about any Jeep at invoice, so if a Liberty is too expensive, a lot of people will just go for a GC. I'm sure that Jeep knows this.
The Liberty's look is really growing on me, far more interesting then other small 'utes. f they can nail the build quality, they've got a winner.
bobcatbob: I still think the pricing will end up being about $3k more than a Cherokee. Low 20s for a base model, upper 20s for something with all the options. Nobody will buy it if the price jumps into the 30s.
sasquatch: I think you're looking for a larger vehicle. The Liberty will (hopefully) seat 4 adults comfortably, 5 squeezed in (particularly if they are over 200 lbs). The 6th you'll have to put on top with the kayaks.
eagle63: It wasn't really a war. More like strongly different analysis of the facts. Fortunately, aftermarket providers will fix Jeeps error by providing kits to do a solid axle swap, much like they do for the 4Runner.
Oh. Can anyone verify that the Liberty is using drums in the rear, rather than disks?
Personally, I'd take the proven, slightly larger GC for the same money... wouldn't you? THAT'S why I expect the Liberty t be about the same price as the "old" Cherokee so it won't cannibalize the GC.
I think the "old" Cherokee is a gonner. I expect the Jeep lineup to be Wrangler, Liberty, Grand Cherokee by 2002.
All just my opinion, your's will vary. :-)
-mike
-mike
If The Liberty comes in loaded at 25-27K then I am all happy...Heck, I don't really want loaded per se. Just the bigger engine, fog light, cd changer/player, maybe leather, and the moon roof. Most of these are standard on the Limited, so who knows.
I still think the pricing cannot go much higher than the Escape/Tribute simply for competition's sake. Are you listening Daimler Chrysler and Jeep???
But, I think it is interesting that most dealers will charge MSRP, even in a recession becasue "Well, its new and hot and everyone wants one."....Give a vehicle 3-6 months and it'll calm down...I talked to a dealer about an Aztec (not seriously, trust me) when it came out and he wanted more than sticker because "it's going to revolutionize sport utes." Now, I think, if you go to a Pontiac dealer for an oil chage, you get an Aztec free.
Anyhow....This board is very lively and civil, which is great!
-mike
Yes, I'm sure Jeep would like to get as many Rav4/CRV customers as possible, but, at the same time, it's also going after "legitimate off-roaders" such as the Rodeo and Xterra.
My point was, it seems that a lot of folks feel that the Rav4, the CRV, etc., are the "only" vehicles the Liberty is able to compete with. That's absolutely wrong.
Bob
Remember, the mantra is: plain, ultra reliable (like a Honda or Toyota), efficient (in all ways, meaning MPG, off roading, etc.), and inexpensive!!!
So quit makin your blanket statements, abominable man. Since you like your Civic so much, why don't you ask Honda where your perfect SUV is? Yeah, right that's it, go buy a Passport and quit gripin about Jeeps.
Furthermore, I don't like the Passport or the SRV, but am interested in JEEPs. My buddy has a '97 Wrangler, and loves it. He has 2 other friends who have them. I am interested in, and not griping about JEEPs. OK?
Bob
Of course, since the Liberty has a new V6 engine and IFS, all that may change...
Maybe since this is a truly "new" Jeep, it won't break as often—because the new technology will be far more superior, and more durable, than the old, and often trouble-prone technology, which it is replacing.
Bob
You are right, the quality has gone down and up over the years... My family has had 3 K-cars, a Lebaron (80's), Acclaim, and '83 Ramcharger. The ramcharger was awsome 250K miles and we chucked it cause the body and interior and doors were basically falling apart. The K-cars just sucked (head gaskets iirc), the acclaim is barely making 100K with almost 10K in repairs under warranty, the lebaron was good until some yo yos stole it and drove over a median, it was never the same after that.
-mike
Ummm. Let me see if I understand you. Its your belief that the Liberty's cast iron block w/ aluminum cylinder head and higher revving engine will be more durable than the Cherokee's old technology, cast iron block w/ cast iron cylinder head engine? Merely because its newer?
What do you think of the "new" OHC 4.7 used in the Grand Cherokee? Do you think the "old" 5.2 engine, which the 4.7 replaced to be superior? If you do, you're in a crowd of one. The new 3.7 is based on that engine. Again, early reports are quite positive.
If the engineers don't have any problems with aluminum heads, neither do I. I trust their expertise more than I do yours.
Bob
The Cherokee hits peak torque (225 ftlbs) at 3000 rpm.
The Liberty hits peak torque (225 ftlbs) at 4000 rpm
The Cherokee hits peak power (190 HP) at 4600 rpm
The Liberty hits peak power (210 HP) at 5200 rpm
The power to weight ratio for the Cherokee (0.057 HP/lb) is marginally higher than the Liberty's (0.054 hp/lb). If the Liberty has the same gears as the Cherokee, it will be sluggish (relative to the Cherokee) getting up to speed. They won't give it the same gears.
Its performance will be about the same as the Cherokees, but over the course of 100,000 miles it will have more engine revolutions.
Aluminum Cylinder Head:
Industry standard? You mean like Ford's 3.8L V6?
Who says engineers don't have problems with aluminum? Aluminum isn't used because "new technology" is better. Its used because aluminum is lighter and if you want to meet higher emission and fuel economy standards, you have to reduce weight.
We're talking durability. Aluminum cylinder heads don't bode well for durability. Newer designed head gaskets help limit the problem (aluminums thermal expansion is much higher than irons), but they don't suddenly give aluminum the advantage as you alluded to ("new technology will be far more superior, and more durable, than the old ").
I didn't say I didn't like the 3.7l; I said as an all new engine w/ aluminum heads, it remains to be seen whether its as durable as the I6 it replaces. "Early reports" have nothing to do with long term reliability and durability.
At least until I'm in over my head, I trust my own engineering expertise. You?
I've seen more than my share of new innovations over the years. Some have panned out. Others haven't. Having said that, I am not at all fearful of an engine revving to over 5000 rpm, or fearful of aluminum heads. I've owned many a motorcycle that revved far beyond that with 5000 rpm total reliability.
Today's cars are the best that have ever been produced. You can thank technology for that. Many of these vehicles have aluminum heads (and blocks), rev like crazy, and are as reliable as your kitchen stove.
I have no fear that Jeep can produce a modern, up-to-date, high-tech engine. Have they? Don't know yet. As you say, time will tell. But at least I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Bob
As it is, I am a 31 yo graduate student nearing completion of a doctorate in mechanical engineering. I work in a laser laboratory developing a surface alloying process where, as one of its applications, we create a titanium carbide and/or tungsten carbide aluminum alloy on the cylinder surfaces of aluminum block engines, giving the cylinder excellent wear properties and obviating the need for steel cylinder sleeves.
I am fairly well versed in the pros and cons of aluminum versus steel/iron. Other than weight, aluminum is an inferior material for making internal combustion engines. Wear, fatique, and even cost factors heavily lean toward using iron.
Perhaps you are unaware of the difficulties a bimetal engine presents. Since aluminum's thermal expansion rate is twice that of steel, an aluminum head exands more than the iron block to which it is bolted. Neglecting the additional stresses this places on the bolts, it causes the head gasket to wander around. A blown head gasket is the inevitable result. Better designed gaskets do reduce the problem, but they can't keep the head from expanding faster than the block!
Can you show me one of your motorcycles that has over 200,000 miles on an original engine? It would be impressive to see.
I'm not saying the new 3.7 won't be durable. I'm saying the odds are stacked against it being as durable as the engine it replaces.
However, I still stand by my comments. There are thousands of aluminum-engined Toyotas, Hondas, Subarus, etc., that have extremely high mileages. My old '88 Accord was sold with nearly 180,000 miles on it. My daughter's '92 Prelude has over 120,000 miles on it. Other than the normal timing belt replacements, no engine problems whatsoever. I'm a pretty typical owner, not unusual at all. I certainly don't have to tell you about the 9000 rpm redline of the Honda S2000. Will we see any with 200,000 miles on them? I don't know, but I sure wouldn't bet against it.
Granted, most Honda, Toyota and all Subaru boxer engines are all aluminium, and not iron block/aluminum heads. Perhaps Jeep should have gone that route to avoid the iron/aluminum issue. Given that most people don't put that kind of ultra-high mileage on their vehicles, maybe the Jeep solution isn't such a bad one afterall.
One final comment. With all vehicles there are going to be trade offs in terms of design and engineering issues. I think the choices (compromises?) made on Liberty are reasonable for 99% of the public.
Bob
Mark
The tires on my '98 Explorer were not part of the recall—so far.
The '74 Austin Marina was won by my mother-in-law, at a raffle, and she gave it to my wife and I. It (the worst car I ever owned), was once towed into the dealer, whereby the mechanic wrote on the work order that the carburetor fell apart!
Bob
Ok, just joking.... Suffice it to sat that NO ONE knows how a production version of the new engine will hold up. No matter how many prototypes are built, Jeep, nor any manufacturer, will not know the truth until production starts.
For example, all those who test-drove drove the Excuse, I mean Escape, thought it was an amazing car. But, the press test-drives were on hand-built prototypes that were different from the production vehicle. Now the Excuse, er Escape, is seen as a example of how NOT to launch a vehicle. Someone is now saying there is a 6 moth wait for the vehicle...Sheesh.
Is technology better? Not always, read a book called "Why things bite back: technology and the revenge of unintended Consequences, the revenge of technology" by Edward Tenner. Mr. Tanner shows that though we think we are progressing with "new technology" we may in fact be regressing and hurting ourselves...
I like this forum and from what I have seen, I like this vehicle alot.
Now, everyone get along, or else you're all grounded!
Bob
Apology accepted. I guess I should also acknowledge that much of my attitude stems from bitter disappointment that the Cherokee, which enjoys a fiercely loyal customer base, is getting the axe. I mean, come on. Sales can drop 15% a year for 5 straight years and they'd still be selling 60k a year. The Cherokee costs them very little to make. Its also the only inexpensive solid axle vehicle you can get (neglecting the Wrangler of course, which serves a different crowd). How difficult could it be to slowly cut back on production while the Liberty actually cuts its teeth?
Accord, Prelude, S2000. You're naming Hondas. Honda is, arguably, the best engine manufacturer in the world (and they don't do a bad job with the rest of the vehicle either). If the 3.7 were made by Honda, I would never have even brought it up. But, considering what DC has come out with recently, can they do as good a job as Honda? .
Aluminum block engines will be arriving in droves in the next several years. Maybe the Liberty will get one then. I think currently though there is a serious lack of third parties that can mass produce aluminum block engines, so the ones that are made in house are in high demand.
bobcatbob: We're not fighting, we're arguing strenuously. You want fighting? There's lots of other forums that do a better job than we've managed.
-mike
Bob
Bob