Jeep Liberty

bkostel

Why are so few jeep libertys being produced with anti-lock brakes especially with the off road package. Is there a safety issue here?

jonij1234

i got an invite from a local jeep dealer with a savings voucher of $7,153 towards a purchase of any jeep or chrysler vehicle. i already have an envoy xl but my wife needs to replace her honda accord. if this coupon is really true, then i would buy rather than lease.

soulfinger

The lack of availability of ABS with the off-road package could be just a function of consumer demand. Off-roading and ABS don't really mix very well. ABS tends to kick in off-road when you don't want it to. The Liberty is supposed to disable the ABS in low-range 4WD, but it doesn't do that in 4WD high, which is somewhat unfortunate. So probably not too many people are looking for that combination. I have ABS and it's a nuisance off-road. But that's a small percentage of my driving, so I chose to put up with it.

anonymous02

Is it possible to disable the ABS on Liberty by pulling a fuse?

If not, I also have my doubts on getting one with ABS.

Thanks.

libertycat

I'm tired of hearing about it in this conversation.

renoliberty

I'll bet there are more ABS+off-road combos available than there are manual transmissions. Those are near impossible to find or to order. I personally skipped the ABS because I wasn't sold on its durability.

tbunder1

wouldn't you want abs when in 4hi? in this mode, you can be going up to 60 mph, so it makes sense for it not to kick off. when you're in 4lo, it overrides it. if you're off-roading in 4hi, abs will not interfere because you're obviously not in a very tight situation for it to cause problems. it's when you're in 4lo that you need the freedom of your foot and the dependabilty of the t/c gearing to slow you down.

djasonw

I wouldn't even think about buying any vehicle today without ABS. I also have an Audi allroad and another feature (besides ABS) is ESP which prevents skids/spins. I would love the Liberty to have an option like this. Nice thing about ESP is there is a switch to disable it. In last week's NE storm the ESP kicked in on some black ice and it probably saved my butt!!

soulfinger

Tbunder, I don't drive 60 mph off-road. When I'm in 4 low I don't use the brakes much because I'm moving slowly and engine braking is so effective. At higher speeds (but considerably less than 60 mph) in 4 high on loose surfaces, it can be annoying to have the ABS kick in. It's difficult to get any feel for the surface from the brake pedal because it's constantly pumping.

ABS is good in full-time 4WD when you're on slick pavement, and I'm glad to have it then. But for me at least, ABS is annoying off-road in 4 high. Just my opinion. You're welcome to disagree.

tbunder1

you need to re-read my post. you just re-iterated everything i said. abs is nice when driving 60 mph on rain slickened roads or whatever the surface is like. but off-road, abs isn't needed. and if you are ever in a predicament where it may interrupt your driving off-road, chances are you aren't in that bad of a predicament because you evidently aren't in 4lo, in which abs is interrupted in. bottom line, is that when in 4lo, abs is cutoff. if you're not in 4lo, then you're evidently just cruising and not having to slam on your brakes to ascend a hill or something in which you would be in 4lo in the first place which would mean no abs due to cutoff by computer.

soulfinger

Sorry, I must not have made myself clear. I don't need to re-read your post. I'm talking about 4 High (also known as part-time 4WD), not the optional full-time 4WD that's designed for use on pavement (as I said, I like the ABS there). You asked why a person wouldn't want ABS with 4 High, and I gave my reason. When I'm driving on loose surfaces like dry sand or gravel, where the terrain isn't very steep and I don't need 4 Low but I do want the additional traction of 4WD, I use 4 High. When you try to come to a stop from 25 mph or slide into a turn in those conditions and the ABS kicks in, it makes the handling much less predictable. When stopping, braking distance is lengthened because of all the pumping, and on turns the ABS tries to stop me from doing what I want to do, which is to slide smoothly into the turn. Like I said, that's just my opinion, and you're welcome to disagree. I have no desire to get into a long debate on it.

tbunder1

i personally don't have abs on my liberty. have had it in the past on other vehicles. only time i have ever used it was when it snowed. and then it is just a hindrance. im sure in an emergency situation like sudden need to stop on an interstate or highway it would be nice, or when a deer or other animal would run out. but basically my point was that if you do have it and are off road, it shouldn't hinder your experience because when in 4lo, it is interrupted. any other speed off-road, and it shouldn't be a problem because you wouldn't be going fast enough to have to stop all of a sudden. if you are, you must be drunk or something.

vin_weasel

Well its a good thing the cops don't go off-road or I'd get a DUI.

Seriously I use 4 High off road all the time on dirt and loose forest roads and other flat, predictable trails. I generally only use 4 low when I need it and I'm not going to use 4-Low for miles and miles of empty flat trail. It would take forever to get to the next wheeling spot.

chrisliberty03

I just bought a 2003 Liberty Limited Edition 4x4 on Jan. 2. I was just curious what if any problems did people have when the took their new Liberty home. So far my right rear door lock does not work, when I start the Jeep the engine temperature starts in the middle and smells like it is running hot. I have a 200 mile trip tomorrow so I will update if any problems arise.

Just passed 50 miles and so far am pleased.

renoliberty

Does anyone know the actual base curb weight of an '03 Liberty Sport with V6, 4WD, and manual vs. the weight of an '03 Limited. The brochures list the base curb weight of a V6, 4WD at 3857 lbs. Is that with manual or auto? Car mag reviews have the curb weights all over the place from 3826 to 4300 lbs. (don't those guys get out when they roll on the scales?). Two agree at 4115 lbs. This spread range doesn't give me confidence in their other test numbers!

mad0865

I'd get the right rear door lock checked out, but as for the Liberty running hot, no need to worry. It's always dead middle, and the smell is probably just the new antifreeze working it's way into the engine. I'm sure it's fine. Freaked me out when I first saw it as well, but after time the smell goes away.

jefferson1964

Just wanted an opinion of the two from you liberty owners. Also, is there any difference in gas mileage and handling between the two since the command track can be put to two wheel drive and select track is full time 4x4 to my understanding. Im looking at a neighbors used 2002 pre-lowered liberty sport mint condition with 32K no abs and select track for $14,500. I live in Texas and would not use 4x4 very often no offroading but it would be nice if needed due to slick roads etc.

soulfinger

Selec-Trac sounds like what you want. I think you are confused about Selec-Trac. It has a full-time 4WD capability that Command-Trac does not have. But that doesn't mean it's always 4WD. Normal operation is 2WD. Essentially, it has the 4WD system for off-roading that the Command-Trac has, PLUS you get the full-time 4WD that's designed for slick pavement. It's an excellent system. In my opinion far superior to Command-Trac. I use the full-time 4WD whenever it rains. Handling is excellent. No wheel spin or hydroplaning.

tbunder1

if you have decent tires, and not the crappy stock tires, no one in their right mind needs to be engaged just because it's raining out. that is truly ridiculous.
there is nothing wrong with command trac, it's a straight and to the point t/c, and the same exact one used in every wrangler except the rubicon. sure the selec-trac has the extra setting, but i honestly do not see the benefit of it. if you have good tires, you can get through most every on-road driving condition in 2hi. if it's just snow you're driving through, command-trac in 4hi is just as good as selec-trac in 4-full time. in ice, nothing will help, and in rain it is totally unnecessary if you have upgraded your tires. imo, i'd much rather have some BFG all-terrain tires and command-trac as compared to stock tires and selec-trac. it's just something else to go wrong. just my thoughts.

div2

I agree, I think the Command Trac is more than adequate if you have even rudimentary driving skills-and the reduced complexity should bode well for long term reliability.

soulfinger

jefferson1964: If you want to see some more comments from people who actually HAVE Selec-Trac, use the advanced search function and search this Liberty discussion board for "selec-trac." As you'll see, lots of people like it. I'd say the bottom line is that if you want to use 4WD in the rain or in highly changeable road conditions that vary from wet/icy/snowy to wet/dry, you'll want Selec-Trac. You can leave it on all the time. With Command-Trac you probably shouldn't use it in the rain (some people think that's ok, but I personally wouldn't do it). And in changing conditions you'll be shifting in and out of 4WD a lot with Command-Trac. Hope that helps, and don't believe the naysayers.

tbunder1

very rarely do you have a road go from wet, to icy, to snowy, back to wet and then all of a sudden dry. it just doesn't happen. sure, the selec-trac is useable on surfaces that won't let the wheels slip (the main difference between these two t/c's), but if your wheels aren't slipping, why in the world would you need to be engaged at all? imoo, selec-trac is for people who buy a jeep and have no idea how to use the 4x4 system. jeep makes this so that these types of people won't destroy their axles by running them engaged on every type of surface. if it's raining out and you have your t/c locked in anything but 2hi, you are wasting gas. command-trac will do anything selec-trac will do. i can drive engaged in the snow, ice, dirt, gravel, sand, etc. i would never be engaged in the rain though. im sorry, but if you have to be in 4 full-time when it's raining, you really should learn to drive in the rain- preferably in some type of rear drive sports car. what's the difference between the liberty and a camaro in the rain? camaro drivers don't get to engage.

soulfinger

Command-Trac won't do everything Selec-Trac will do. That's exactly the point. As for the changing road conditions, I wasn't suggesting that they all happen at once. But it's fairly common to go from wet pavement to dry and back to wet, or have patchy ice and dry pavement, or snow that changes to rain and back to snow again.

I'm not sure why you assume that wheels don't slip in the rain. Maybe you have a different kind of rain in Iowa. Where I live in SoCal, the roads get very oily in rainstorms and standing water collects frequently on freeways. I'm not saying that I'm sliding all over the place, but I do notice improved traction with the full-time 4WD. Why wouldn't I want that if it's available to me?

vin_weasel

the Cherokee forum and the 4x4 Systems explained one for more info on Selec-Trac.

I love it and think it's great. I actually have it and use it. As a matter of fact I used it last night as I was coming through a forest where there were alternating dry and snowy patches of highway, knowing that I wouldn't have to worry about switching back and forth between 2wd and 4-High.

Div2, I wouldn't worry about reliability of the selec-trac vs command trac. The internal differences of the transfercases are not that great and while the Command trac has a stronger torque rating, there are thousands of Cherokees out there with both types of cases in the 200k+ mile range.

tbunder, you should really make sure you know exactly what you're talking about before you start making comments. Or you could always start another topic about how, according to the paper specifications, the Liberty is better offroader than the TJ.

stever

Tbunder1, I drive that wet, snowy, icy, dry, wet again road once or twice a week this time of year. You have to watch the shady corners around here or you'll get bit!

Steve, Host

lcwos

Our new Liberty Limited is one month old and the odometer just turned 1000 miles (500 miles of it was holiday traveling in 4 days) and all is well. No squeeks, rattles or leaks noted in rain or through the car wash. Have traveled in rain, sleet, 8" of snow and freezing rain and 30 mph cross winds. Have had to use the ABS brakes,
(many city people just cant seem to drive well in snowy conditions) and they worked perfectly. Our "burning smell" went away at around 150 miles.....so not to worry.
With 500 miles on it, we averaged 18.3 mpg on the highway going between 75 and 80 mph. I know it's not broken in yet, and hope the mileage will improve..but if not, then that's OK too. We knew the mileage was not the greatest when we were looking at vehicles.
Relatives were surprised on how much room there was inside, the appointments, the ride, the handling etc. since it looks so small to onlookers. The heater works great too. Gets toasty fast. I do wish there was climate control available though....but none the less, we couldn't be more pleased with the Liberty Limited, and If it continues to perform well, when the lease expires, we will purchasing our next one.

djasonw

I used selec-trac all the time in the winter. Up in NE PA we have varying road conditions and I always find it comforting to know that I have 4WD. I personally would NEVER consider command-trac unless I lived in a non-snowy climate. I also
use it in rain too because there are times when traction is limited during the beginning of a rainstorm (oil in the road etc).

div2

I like to use AWD on dry pavement. After a long drought there's a lot of slippery dust on the road. And you never know when you may come upon a discarded popsicle. I think I'll fit training wheels to my motorcycle as well. It should give me a great sense of security. And I'm going to sell my Wrangler, Pathy and 528i TODAY; I didn't realize how lethal part time 4WD and 2WD vehicles could be. Thanks for possibly saving my life!

jondavid

Found these 02 sales numbers for Jeep Liberty, and the other 2 vehicles I've been watching, CRV and Ford Escape:

Ranked in order of sales

1 Jeep Liberty 171,212

2 Honda CRV 146,266

3 Ford Escape 145,471

Sites for 02 sales numbers - I borrowed the honda and ford links from the CRV vs Escape area. No mention there of the Liberty sales numbers :-) That's ok with me as my family has both a Liberty and a CRV.

  

http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/index_e.htm?/news/top/2002/t21203_e.htm

http://hondanews.com/forms/corp/sales/02dec.html

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=13955

What a difference a model year makes ...

jondavid

Jeep Liberty Link in my previous post doesn't show 02 sales - once you select:

http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/index_e.htm?/news/top/2002/t21203_e.htm

Select news from the left column, then select "Chrysler Group Reports U.S. December sales"

mark0109

Wanted opinion as you mentioned you have both CRV and Liberty...

I am in proces of buying either a 2002 Limited Liberty...

or a 2003 CRV EX with leather/heated seats....

per your experience.. any advice????

markd9

My 02 Limited has a breaking noise. Often when I apply the breaks I hear (and feel) a bumping noise. I took it to the dealer and it was fine for a month or so and then it returned. Sometimes it's very slight, other times it's more pronounced. Most of the time it does not happen at all. It can occur on dry or wet pavement, and when I'm in 2WD or 4WD. Has anyone else experienced this?

tbunder1

you all need tanks. seems like you're all so paranoid when driving that you hate to drive without being engaged. like i said, selec-trac is for lazy soccer moms. why don't they offer it in wrangler if it's so good? aren't wranglers supposed to be driven in this mystical wet/dry/snow/icy/dusty road condition? lmao

vin_weasel

a drunk lazy soccer mom. Even when presented with first-hand experience and opinions your mind remains closed.

(on an actual technical note, the main reason I believe Selec-trac isn't offered in the Wrangler is twofold. First, the Np242 case has a slightly longer tailshaft that would make the Wrangler's already short rear driveshaft even shorter. Secondly, Jeep has never offered the Selec-trac with a manual transmission in the MJ,XJ,YJ or TJ for their own reasons, which is what the majority of Wranglers are.)

stever

Anyone else think Markd9's braking noise is related to his rotors? Time to resurface them perhaps?

Steve, Host

jondavid

I bought the Liberty over the newer 02 CRV because I felt that the Liberty offered much more. While we still enjoy the CRV, I really wanted a V6 option, heated leather seats that looked better than what Honda offered, a the ability to tow a horse trailer, and the option to manually engage 4wd if I wanted to. The towing requirement ruled out the CRV immediately, but I probably wouldn't have bought another CRV even if we hadn't decided to buy a horse. While it is well built, I found it
suffering from a "glass ceiling" called Acura. Before the Acura division existed, I found Honda offered much more value - now they seem to be protecting that franchise by offering just enough to get by on the Honda line, imo. While that may stir up some controversy, I've been buying Honda's since 1979, so I've seen a definite lower bang for the buck effect over the years. Still, they make a
fine car.

Comparison wise, I found the Liberty Limited to be much quieter than either the 1st or 2nd generation CRV, as well as the pilot. Seems to be better insulated. It is still a truck based SUV, but comfortable. The CRV is more car like on-road, until you encounter rough pavement, potholes or secondary roads, where the ride is much better on the Liberty than the CRV.
However, if you don't ever plan to leave smooth pavement for any extended period, and want better gas mileage, the CRV would probably suit your needs better. I will say I was hesitant to buy the Jeep after many years of buying Honda's, but I'm over that now. The Liberty has been solid, quiet, and trouble free, with just over a year since I bought it.

libertycat

There's not even leather available!

soulfinger

Markd9, can you give more information? How many miles on the vehicle? Do you know what, if anything, the dealer did last time to make it go away? Does the noise happen continuously when you apply the brakes, or does it happen at the end of a stop? You say you can feel the noise. What do you feel? Is it just one bump, or does the pedal vibrate extensively?

n40

I have the Husky Floor liners in my Liberty and am very careful about not getting into the Jeep all snow covered. With that said, under the floor liner, my rug is often soaking wet. My dealer says its condensation? I dry it out with towels as it gets so soaking wet. Dealer says he can't find any leak - I think they just don't want to get their hands dirty. Anyone know why the drivers floor is getting so soaking wet? It cannot be just from me getting in and out. Where do I go from here? My dealer says to bring it in again, this will be trip #3 for the same problem.

mclewis

Can anyone tell me the difference between the 2002 Liberty and the 2003? I have heard complaints and I'm wondering what was fixed for this year. I am considering buying a used 2002 but will get the 2003 if it's worth it!

lcwos

Dry it out as much as possible and put a solid rubber mat on top so it wont allow for the transfer of water. If it's still getting soaked, then water is somehow coming up through the floorboards from the roadway.......Then, I suggest you take it to another dealer and ask for the Service Manager. Ask that he personally take the car for several days to see for him/her self. If you have to use towels to soak up the water, it's not "condensation"... I think your first instinct is correct. They just dont want to get down and dirty.
Good luck.......let us know what happens.

tbunder1

vinweasel- the liberty shares the exact same t/c as the wrangler (sans rubicon which is all together different). you are incorrect.

there is a tsb out on your problem. the a/c leaks/drains inside the vehicle on early build liberty's. this is a well known problem since chrysler issued a fix for it. your dealer is blowing smoke up your you know what. check out www.nhtsa.org to find out exactly the number for it. click on technical service bulletins.

mclewis- as far as the differences between '02's and '03's, there isn't that much that you'll notice. however, there are some.

'03's sit an inch lower than '02's, but some midyear '02's were lowered as well. to tell the difference, the non-lowered '02's say 4x4 on the rear quarter, while lowered ones say it on the back swinggate. '03's were decontented a little from '02. the '02's are nicer inside. the '02 sports have door panels that match the seating surfaces, the '03's just have a plain black plastic liner that's really cheap looking. no storage pockets on the rear of the front seats for '03's. '03's don't have a trim piece that goes across the top of the windshield which looks unfinished. if i were you, i'd try to find an '02. but the '03's are nice too. i just prefer the non-lowered versins myself.

vin_weasel

The liberty is offered with two different transfer cases the np231 (part time, offered since 1987 in the XJ, MJ, YJ and TJ) and the np242 (part time and full time, offered since 1987 in the XJ, ZJ and WJ). You cannot get the np242 full-time case in any of these vehicles or the Liberty with a standard transmission. Therefore, since most Wranglers are standards (I would hazard to guess about 90%, but that's just a guess) why would the Np242 be fit to the Wrangler for such a limited application especially since the previous Wrangler used to use different auto transmissions than the XJ and ZJ? I believe the new (02-03) Wrangler (excluding the Rubicon) is available with the same 4 speed auto as the Liberty. This new combination may make it worthwhile for DC to see if the np242 will fit in the Wrangler and consequently begin to offer it.

ozone1

I just read the thread regarding Command Trac vs Selec Trac...very entertaining. Vin_Weasel and tbunder1, I don't know much about transfer cases and whatnot, but I have a couple short comments on the overall topic. IMO, Selec Trac is more of a marketing feature than anything. It allows Jeep to say they have a Full Time all wheel drive system irregardless of the practical use for it. With so many SUVs and all wheel drive cars out there it is a no brainer for DC to have Selec Trac as an option on the Liberty and Grand Cherokee (not so, on the Wrangler, different market segment). So, while I agree with tbunder1 that Selec Trac has no real advantage to Command Trac, I would still (and did) buy a Liberty with Selec Trac. Why? Well, for one it increased our residual value on our leased Liberty. I would also guess that if you bought a Liberty, it would be easier to sell it used than a Liberty with Command Trac. A majority of people want a Full Time 4wd option. It may not logical sense, but, its true. Case in point, we are selling my wife's 96 Jeep Cherokee. We've had 10 potential buyers come out to look at it and 6 of them said they would not buy the vehicle because they really wanted a full time 4wd option. Obviously, these are people who don't know Jeeps very well, or they would have never come out to see the car, but the point is they have it in their heads that they need a system like Selec Trac. DC is simply responding to that demand.

And I have to say, there has been more than one occasion where I put our Liberty into 4WD Hi on a wet San Francisco street just to watch an over tuned rice rocket spin its wheels as I pull away, pedal to the floor, sans slippage from a stoplight....just for the fun of it.

vin_weasel

I agree with most of what you said. People's expectations of AWD have increased along with the interest of SUVs in general. Jeep (including AMC, Chrysler and now DC ownership) has been offering AWD on its vehicles for a long time, dating back to the full-size Wagoneers. Jeep AWD has been around a long time and it makes good sense for DC to push it given the market competition. Also, I totally agree with you about the resale value.

Selec-trac is 4wd simplified for those who want to use it all the time. The alternative is shifting in and out of 4x4 depending on the current road conditions. Where I live, those road conditions can change every mile in the winter. Sure I could load down the back of the Jeep and drive slowly in 2wd but why when the Selec-trac option cost a measly 1.25% of the total MSRP of my vehicle. For that small amount I get AWD that I don't have to worry about and that anyone else who may drive my vehicle and doesn't know all the different 4x4 modes has to worry about in bad weather. There is no downside and the cost is negligible.

Now before I'm written off as a soft-roading soccer mom my vehicle sees good 4-Lo use every year. I've gotten stuck and found my limitations on a stock vehicle. To say that you only need 2wd, 4wd and 4-Lo is kind of silly given the time tested and proven alternatives at a low cost on a new vehicle. The only reason for such a statement is if you're getting a vehicle that will see lots of off-road use and limited on-road use or daily driving in good conditions or if you just don't care. My question about Selec-trac is: Why not get it?

(p.s. I'm looking for a used Wrangler or Cherokee that will be my off-road toy and I don't care if it has AWD or not. But I prefer it on a daily driver.)

ozone1

Too bad you're in Canada, I have great 1996 Cherokee Country for sale

vin_weasel

It might be a little out of my price range. I'm looking primarily at 91-95 wranglers and cherokees. I keep flip flopping back and forth between the two. The Wrangler is harder to find and more expensive but the Cherokee will require more cash for modifications.

tbunder1

you are mistaken on the t/c's available in liberty. there are two, and like i said, the standard one is the same exact one used in wranglers, auto or not.

they are the:

NV231- command trac
NV242- selec-trac (or paranoidis anonymous)

tbunder1

have the mesa silver aluminum wheels they want to get rid of off their liberty sport? if so, let me know. i want a set. limited wheels are not them. these only come on sports.

hisierra1

really like the liberty and want to be an owner but, after testing the only 2 my local dealer has,both new '02's, 1 sport & 1 limited, i have a dilemma. at 6' tall, i can't seem to have enough headroom in the drivers seat. my eye level is almost even with the sun visor, damn near, looking straight ahead. the limited is leather, power, heated seats-the sport is cloth and non power seat-both high back, i believe. after checking the brochure, the grand cherokee has an inch less of headroom than the liberty, hard to believe. my wife rode, in the rear seat while i was driving and said i was craneing my neck and leaning, etc. for visability while driving. has the headroom improved for '03 Liberty or is there a way to lower the seat that i'm not aware of? the dealer had his tech check the car for any obvious problems with the seats and to see if it was lowered all the way and did not see a problem. i am driving into reno next week and plan to test drive some new '03's and hopefully find one that i can see out of. i didn't think 6' was too tall for jeep engineers to factor in when they designed the liberty. are the low back seats any better? any other 6' or taller liberty owners out there? help...