Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see May lease deals!
Options
Most popular vehicles
Popular New Cars
- New Acura MDX
- New Acura RDX
- New Audi Q5
- New BMW 3 Series
- New BMW X3
- New Buick Enclave
- New Cadillac Escalade
- New Chevrolet Equinox
- New Chrysler 300
- New Dodge Challenger
- New Ford Edge
- New Ford Escape
- New Ford Expedition
- New Ford Explorer
- New Ford F-150
- New Ford Focus
- New Ford Mustang
- New Honda Accord
- New Honda Civic
- New Honda CR-V
- New Honda Fit
- New Honda Odyssey
- New Honda Pilot
- New Hyundai Elantra
- New Hyundai Santa Fe
- New Hyundai Sonata
- New Hyundai Tucson
- New Jeep Compass
- New Jeep Grand Cherokee
- New Jeep Wrangler
- New Mazda 3
- New Mazda 6
- New Mazda CX-5
- New Nissan Altima
- New Nissan Maxima
- New Nissan Rogue
- New Porsche Cayenne
- New Ram 1500
- New Subaru Crosstrek
- New Subaru Forester
- New Subaru Impreza
- New Subaru Outback
- New Tesla Model S
- New Tesla Model X
- New Toyota 4Runner
- New Toyota Camry
- New Toyota Corolla
- New Toyota Highlander
- New Toyota Prius
- New Toyota RAV4
- New Toyota Sienna
- New Toyota Tacoma
- New Volkswagen Jetta
- New Volvo XC60
- New Volvo XC90
Popular Used Sedans
- Used BMW 5 Series
- Used Chevrolet Impala
- Used Chevrolet Malibu
- Used Chrysler 200
- Used Dodge Charger
- Used Ford Fusion
- Used Ford Taurus
- Used Honda Accord
- Used Honda Civic
- Used Hyundai Elantra
- Used Hyundai Sonata
- Used Tesla Model S
- Used Toyota Camry
- Used Toyota Corolla
- Used Volkswagen Jetta
Popular Used SUVs
- Used Acura MDX
- Used Acura RDX
- Used Ford Edge
- Used Ford Explorer
- Used Honda CR-V
- Used Honda Pilot
- Used Hyundai Santa Fe
- Used Jeep Compass
- Used Lincoln Navigator
- Used Mazda CX-5
- Used Nissan Rogue
- Used Subaru Crosstrek
- Used Subaru Forester
- Used Tesla Model X
- Used Volvo XC90
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Question. What are the results of Toyota's research on the cause(s) of sludge?
Thank you. I think the position taken by Toyota is unprecedented and extremely generous. They've gone the extra mile IMHO. Hat's off to a great automaker.
Quote
"When maintained according to schedule, it is extremely unlikely that any vehicle powertrain will develop this condition" This means it is possible yet they refuse to admit it , they state quite emphatically, it is not a design problem.
Sorry, but I am not really a Toyota basher but this is just SPIN CITY!!!!!!!!!!!!. Please jsut admit the owner's manul needs to be revised and go one with life
I have to admit I don't have the same confidence today that I'll see 200k on this engine that I had when I bought the car. Based on my experience with the Camry I didn't even look at another brand.
Questions for tmsusa1....
Will an explaination or root cause be officially recognized on this issue so I can do what needs to be done maintenance-wise to get my 200k+ miles on this Toyota?
Question's...Since the news release addresses the 1997 through 2002 models, will there be a change or modification to future models (2003)?
IF so, will there be any recommended changes to the 1997-2002 models, such as maintenance, or part changes???
Thanks Toyota for stepping up to bat! (or is it still Toyoto! LOL)
Do we need to bring this to the attention of the media, perhaps Mr. Bill O'Reilly of the Foxnews cable channel?
Hmmm.... how much better than this (see below) is a TV reporter going to do for you? I mean, if an 8-year warranty doesn't satisfy you, why not?
AND
To: armdtm: Why did you call this "spin"? If a person gets an 8-year warranty no matter what, plus incidental expenses, why do you think they, or you, would care about the ultimate technical aspects of the problem? Curious.
"To make sure that customers have absolute confidence in their vehicles, this program will cover repair costs and incidental expenses for which a customer has paid or could incur as a result of damage due to oil gelling for a period of eight years from the date of first sale or lease without a mileage limitation."
Thanks
Thank you, Toyota, for this move...I think it is a great customer service move and will be helpful to you PR wise, too. Good move!
The testing conducted on Toyota engines by the oil expert indicates that the Toyota-recommended oil breaks down after only 4000 miles. Yet, Toyota is maintaining their 5000/7500 mile oil change interval.
If the oil expert's analysis is correct, and the number of sludged vehicles seems to be indicative that his analysis probably is correct, than something is still not kosher.
The oil expert recommends a 3000 mile oil change interval for these particular engines. Who pays the difference between that interval and the Toyota recommended interval?
Based on the past posts, is it safe to say that a quality synthetic oil changed at conservative intervals is something that Toyota Corp. would "recommnend" to its owners who may be concerned about sludging ?? Also, are owners of Highlanders with tow packages (oil coolers) less prone to this potential problem ?
matter what, plus incidental expenses, why do you think they, or you, would care
about the ultimate technical aspects of the problem? Curious.
Why can't they be honest and simply say they do not know the cause, change the oil change interval and admit that sometimes under specific circumstance the oil will gel. Guess the inability to accept responsibility goes around the world. Sure, they will pay but like a court settlement, we admit no problem but will pay damages.
Sorry, this is SPIN to me and still accepting no responsiblity for a problem. As I have stated many times, I own a Toyota, a 92 Cmary but would never buy another. Arrogant dealers, arrogant corporation cheapened products in the past 5 years and Bland models!
Sounds like if we are paid off we don't care what the problem is or if anyone can accept responsibility. Ethics are just going down the tubes worldwide.
pdalpushr: I wouldnt worry about your new Camry. I just bought a 1997 LE 4cyl with 227,000 miles on it and it runs beautifully. I actually drove the car yesterday. Aside from some slight front suspension wear (Struts have had it, but this car came out of Detroit) the car is still very smooth on the highway. I had the cruise on 85 last night!
Tomorrow it gets picked up by a transporter and its' leaving the country along with 7 others.
It too, is sludge free.
As far as Sludged Toyotas go, I know of two RX300s that sludged here in Orlando. Both went over a year and over 15,000 miles between oil changes.
(Both were serviced at Lexus of Orlando where the tech who did the work puts his initials on the oil filters..)
But as I have maintained before again and again, I have seen sludged Hondas. I HAVE seen sludged Nissans, Jaguars, Land-Rovers, BMWs, VWs, you name it.
I have seen far more sludged Range Rovers than sludged Toyotas and I deal in a lot more Toyotas.
Does this mean that Land-Rover has a problem with engine sludge? Nope. Poor maitnence was the cause each and every time.
It appears to me that Toyota engines just dont tolerate abuse very well.
And, Tom, if you think that suggesting that sludge is due to lack of maintience is condescending, what do you think Toyota should say? "Its all our fault, even if you abuse your car and do not maintain it properly its our fault!"
As far as I am concerned, what they have done is, in typical Toyota fashion, above and beyond the call of duty.
They had Head gasket problems on some 4runners, so they did a special warranty for those.
Ford 3.8L V6s blow head gaskets as a matter of course. Is there any help from Ford on those? Not that I have seen. Does ford get blasted left and right for that? Nope.
Bill
That was before today's press release.
I think once they find out about the 8yr deal, they'll go with the Sienna.
I also know I'll be sleeping a little better.
Please do not argue with the host online.
Please do not try to dominate and control the board's flow or content.
The Toyota spokesperson has not even posted yet, nor have any number of people who actually own the affected cars.
Let's give other people a chance to talk. Try asking people things instead of telling them things.
If you can't follow these basic instructions, I will have to ask you to leave the forum and perhaps the entire website.
Mr. Shiftright
Host
BTW, I'm wondering what exactly would show up on an oil analysis that would warn you of an impending sludged engine?
This article states that Toyota is changing the engine design because of the sludge issue. Why change the design if there is supposedly nothing wrong with it?
I thought Ford did finally "step up to the plate" and offer relief for owners of vehicles with the troublesome 3.8L V6 engine.
I am happy for Toyota owners everywhere to see that Toyota has implemented this new repair program. This is a positive thing for consumers, both current and future. I hope the offer extends to folks who have already spent money on engine repairs or replacements.
However, my view is that Toyota had to do something like this. Their entire brand reputation was at stake. The issue has reached critical mass, and they could not ignore it any longer. I'm glad they did what they did, but I don't give them credit for 'stepping up to the plate' or 'going above and beyond the call of duty.' My impression is that manufacturers typically respond with relief for consumers when a major problem such as sludge or head gasket failures becomes well-known and widespread.
As a satisfied former Toyota owner (never should have sold my trouble-free 91 Camry DX at 118k miles), I had, and still do have, a very positive belief in Toyota vehicles. Well-built, durable, reliable. This belief has been shaken by this sludge debate, but not broken.
P.S. armtdm, your response to the host's comments was valid. If the host disagrees with us, aren't we entitled to respond in a civil fashion?
click here for the whole story..
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002/04/04/toyota-sludge.htm
This article is stating Exactly what I have been saying. Toyota's drains are too long. But like most of you have said, They are not saying in fact because of them, but still keeping thier foot in the door so that the blame can go either way. I think they are doing what ever it takes to repair the problem which is good, and I suspect they want to leave the "blame" issue out of the picture in hopes that will eventually die out which if it was me, I'd say smart move on thier part.
I know some people are stubborn enough to resist or let it die out but I believe that will be a minority if others get it fixed and can move on.
I suspect that they are going to incorporate either a higher capacity oil system by either adding a oil cooler or bigger pan. I don't see much of any other way to reduce other than eliminating the gears which is not a feasable idea for redesign. The other idea will be to reset the milage drain numbers.
With those kind of redesigns this would not admit an actual problem with the engine but a "fix" for a more forgiving engine due to over site maintanence problems by the owner.
The more information like this that gets released the better I will feel about my Highlander. I now feel much better about the vacation I was planning but was considering abandoning. If highway miles aren't particularly an indicator for a problem then I'm good to go.
I am religious about oil changes. My '90 Camry was on a 3k schedule with excellent results. I'm doing the Highlander the same way.
Suggestion: It would really help if the maintenance schedules on the Toyota web site was consistent between cars and trucks. Trucks have hot weather as a 'severe driving' condition, cars do not. With the information in this article it appears to be critical that this information be communicated to owners asap....summer is just around the corner.
In any case, 3k drains on it or any other one, you will not experience any sludge problems with these engines even with the type of conditions outlined in the article.
I think that it is very important that we all understand that while Toyota has still not admitted fault the USA article today states that Toyota is REDESIGNING THE V-6 AND ALREADY REDESIGNED THE 4 CYLINDER. So in my most humble opinion change the oil and filter prior to 4000 miles.
After the "stick in the eye" it takes time to heal and I find myself still angry.
Best regards,
Ed
"P.S. armtdm, your response to the host's comments was valid. If the host
disagrees with us, aren't we entitled to respond in a civil fashion?"
First of all, the host did not disagree with armtdm, he asked him a question. Second of all, armtdm answered quite clearly, and now we all know that he remains dissatisfied because he feels there is an ethical issue involved. That's why I asked him the question in the first place.
Read what the host says and not what people say about the host, and you will have a clearer idea of intention I think. You got both parts wrong: The Host just asked a question, and armtdm was "allowed" to answer. What gets a person into trouble in forums is when they argue *policy* with the Host (i.e., how the forum is run. THAT you do off line in e-mail, okay?)
If you want to know how to post successfully in our forums, even while challenging others' ideas or criticizing automakers, read Bob's posts.
This is an interesting excerpt from the post Bob put up on Toyota's redesign of their engines:
"Hanson says the problems have been concentrated where winters are extremely cold and summers are especially humid and among owners who make a lot of short trips."
I remember quite some long time ago a number of you speculated that an environmental factor was also at work.
MrShiftright
Host
1. I never received the original SPA letter. Will the new announcement be mailed out to customers? (from )
2. How many sludge complaints has the company received to date. When the SPA
was announced, there were 3100 complaints. How many have been received to
date? (from )
3. What are the results of Toyota's research on the cause(s) of sludge? ()
4. Questions for tmsusa1....
Will an explaination or root cause be officially recognized on this issue so I can do what needs to be done maintenance-wise to get my 200k+ miles on this Toyota?
()
5. Since the news release addresses the 1997 through 2002 models, will there be a change
or modification to future models (2003)? IF so, will there be any recommended changes
to the 1997-2002 models, such as maintenance, or part changes??? ()
6. Does this mean that past owners who have had there engines rebuilt already will be reimbursed or is this just for future problems that may occur with current owners?
Thanks ()
7. What do you think about the theory that bobistheoilguy posted on the now closed forum regarding the gears in Toyota engines breaking down the oil?
()
8. Based on the past posts, is it safe to say that a quality synthetic oil changed at
conservative intervals is something that Toyota Corp. would "recommnend"
to its owners who may be concerned about sludging ?? Also, are owners of
Highlanders with tow packages (oil coolers) less prone to this potential problem ?
(
From the Host
Host
Under this new policy, if an engine was repaired by a Toyota dealer for sludge, would it cover only it the engine had sludge later, or would it problems caused by the sludge if they showed up thousands of miles later? I do have a reason for this pointed question. Yes. To make a long story short, my enine was leaking too much oil. A Toyota dealer were the van was towed to said the left cylinder head and cam (they didn't say both of them) were scored and need to be replaced. They were so bad a new cam seal would not work so I had to tow the van home until I can afford to fix it. The head and just 1 cam cost $1k at the dealer, not counting labor. Now, I am not looking for a free ticket. The dealer did not say what caused the problem so I cannot even say it is sludge related or not. Would other repaired caused by sludge be covered if they manefested later? Thank you.
I think it is great Toyota opted to open this dialog. Thank you again.
This is what Toyota states is the appropriate interval in their manuals. I would like to think that this interval was based on their own engineering design criteria (and not based on marketing as Cliffy1 theorized in the previous sludge board). Toyota designed the engine, so it should perform appropriately with their recommended operational maintenance criteria. If it doesn't, it should be fixed at Toyota's nickel under warranty.
I'll be following this topic as I'm curious about any new information that comes out. I hope everyone continues the dialog in the same reasonable fashion as last night's discussion. Thanks all!
kirstie_h
Roving Host
Edmunds.com
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Share your vehicle reviews
My wife is chomping at the bit for a rx300. I "will" by the car when the design problem is addressed.
1. How many months out can I expect to see the new rx300's with the design fix
2. How can I tell if the rx300 I am looking at has the design fix?
Until the above questions are addressed, I am hesitant to buy the product. Oil changes more frequently than 5000 miles is not realistic for the amount of driving we do in S. California.
Questions for tmsusa1 - what is the design change that Toyota will be making? Why is a design change needed unless there is a design problem?
My wife is chomping at the bit for a rx300. I "will" by the car when the design problem is addressed.
1. How many months out can I expect to see the new rx300's with the design fix
2. How can I tell if the rx300 I am looking at has the design fix?
Until the above questions are addressed, I am hesitant to buy the product. Oil changes more frequently than 5000 miles is not realistic for the amount of driving we do in S. California.
This problem is going to prove that 3000 mile drain interval is the only way to go, which I disagree. Everything depends on environment (temperature, humidity), how long engine runs, what RPM, load. It seems that oil change idicator (the clever one, which takes most of varaibles into account) will be standard in Toyota soon, just like it is in BMW. I would not object if every car has it.
I am changing my oil (5W30 or 0W30, 4+ quarts per change, Mobil 1) between 7000 and 8000 miles. 72000 miles and a new head gasket (unrelated problem) later my Neon's engine works quite good.
Krzys
PS I admire Toyota steping up. They stil blame customers but in lawsuit happy USA I do not think that they have a choice. The engines seem to be poorly designed to handle neglect but they use small amount of oil for an oil change, deliver good power and torque. Toyota will build more user friendly version soon.
close to the end of the 8-year unlimited mile warranty, you can stop changing your oil, let it sludge and get a new engine for free!!!
You just know someone is going to try it.
Would you blame this guy if he felt that this was a bittersweet victory.
Would you blame this guy if he harbors contempt and mistrust of the "system" even though he got the freedom he deserved.
Would you blame this guy for complaining that even though he was freed, he was made to feel that it was his fault and that the authorities accepted no blame.
Would you believe the authorities when they told you they never jailed innocent people.
Perhaps this is a bit of a stretch, but the sludge saga is much like this little story. That's why some folks are still irritated with Toyota...their here - take the money you screw-up attitude.
Why is anybody surprised?
Yeah, you got aggravated, but essentially for the vast majority of the few thousand people affected, things have been, or will be, put right. Not as good an ending as never having to deal with sludge, but still okay for Real Life. Think of all the people who had car troubles and got nothing over the years. And for those Toyota owners not directly "sludged", you have that 8-year warranty to put under your pillow at night.
Being sent to the slammer unjustly is a true tragedy, since time is not replaceable and the issue cannot be put right. This does not, however, mean that the entire system need be discarded.