Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

zielinw

John,

I don't see much difference between the accord's warranty info and lexus'. The Lexus manual states in-part, "lexus will not deny a warranty solely because you used a service provider other than lexus ... however damage or failures caused by improper maintenance are not covered under warranty".

From reading all of the postings on this subject to-date, it appears that the Toyota dealerships as a group had rejected any sludge related claims. For all of the Toyota dealerships to respond in this manner, requires guidance from Toyota corporate.

I know from prior experience, that certain dealerships go out of their way to have repairs covered under warranty, and this excellent customer service was not related to whether or not I used the dealership for routing servicing.

But, in the sludging issue, it appears to me that the dealerships would have had to eat the cost of the servicing to allow the repair under warranty. So again, it points to the Toyota corporate making the decision.

wammerjammer

Yep, noticed that too. What's the deal? Did Toyota make it next to impossible to change the filter or is it an organized effort to defraud thousands of Toyota owners out of oil filters? I guess when you can no longer blame the owners, turn on the poor guy who does the oil change. They are a shifty bunch anyway. But never take the blame yourself.

rmnixon

I was reading the posts and figured I would post here too. Just to be upfront I started using the "rmnixon" thing when I got online a couple of years ago and I just stuck with it. I am a staunch Republican but lets not start that.

In terms of oil change interval that my RX 300 had I am surmising by the entries in the owners manual that 4-5K was the interval. Given that the service manger told me it was a mild case (is there such a thing, its like saying you have a mild case of cancer) and that I have seen many posts from people with @30K on their engines who have more severe sludge issues than mine, I tend to believe the entries. As I have said in earlier posts in the RX 300 forum, we had no overt signs of sludge (smoking, oil consumption) so I expected them to tell me I didn't have a problem. My dilemma seems to be how long I can reasonable expect the car to perform after they do their "fix". The service manager told my wife he thought 100-120K was going to be the life expectancy of the engine (it has 47K on it now). when I inquired about life left in the motor, he said to to let him open the other valve cover and drop the oil pan and then he would render a more qualified answer. Anyone have any thoughts or experience about how good the motor is after the "fix" has been performed?? We paid 27K for the damn thing and I'm a little reluctant to just turn around and get rid of it. On the other hand, my wife and two small children ride in this car and I don't want my wife to have a car that might be prone to a catastrophic engine failure.

cliffy1

Here's a little secret. It VERY easy to check to see if the original filter is on your car. Go out tonight and take a look. When the engine is asembled, the filter is marked on its top with a white mark from a grease pencil. It isn't signed or circled and it isn't art work. Replacement filters have no such mark. It is a tell-tale sign of poor maintenance when it exists.

Here's the other secret. This is not uncommon. I've never heard of it happening with a dealer maintained car, but that doesn't mean it has not happened. You do all remember the old jokes about untrustworthy mechanics haven't you?

Finally, as you all know, I have recommended for months now that consumers should be marking their filters to ensure that it is replaced. Upon further consideration, you may want to make sure you use a different type of mark than the factory does. Perhaps your initials scrawled in it with a grease pencil.

fxashun

If you have had your oil changed ANYWHERE other than the dealer it should NOT have a Toyota oil filter on it.

I seriously doubt a large volume oil change facility would stock OEM filters.

jeffmust2

I've had oil changes on our two Lexus vehicles (LS and RX) at several non-dealer, local garages (not JiffyWorlds) and three of them in my area advertise and use Toyota OEM filters for these vehicles.

It's a sales advantage for them and the Toyota OEM filters are pretty cheap anyway; my local dealer has them at 3-for-$10 retail.

More of a concern is the use of bulk oil that is advertised as a major brand; who knows what's coming out of that hose line and how much crud is sitting at the bottom of the holding tank?

I've switched to Mobil 1 in the 6-pack and just bring it with me.

fxashun

Was pretty specific there.

If I were a shop going through the trouble of stocking OEM parts I'd advertise it too. Definitly NOT in the norm.

There are exceptions to every rule ya know.

srbin

I have recently registered with Town Hall although I have read postings about Camry sludge and valve stem problems for the last month or two. I have a 1997 Camry 4 cyclinder which has been driven almost 36k miles and it is about to run out of warranty. Alerted to these problems by this site, I took my car to a dealer the other day for some reassurance. I had noticed a little white smoke after a cold start(really didn't think it was a problem) but had never seen any blue smoke. I told this to the service rep, and I also expressed concern about the sludge isue and stated I might get rid of the car to avoid a future problem. The service rep asked me to leave the car for the day and he would check for valve seal damage and sludge if he saw blue smoke. He said it is difficult to detect blue smoke and that someone has to be by the exhaust pipe when the car is started. When I picked up the car late that day I learned that the valve seals had been damaged, and that they had been replaced under warranty. The rep also said that the mechanic had removed the valve cover and had found a very clean engine. The service rep said there was no reason to sell the car.

Until Feb. my Camry had been driven primarily on long interstate trips. About 85%-90% of the 36000
miles on this car have been that type of driving. Now this will become my second car and will be driven almost exclusively in town on very short trips. I always replace my second car when it is 10-11 years old and have never had a problem. My dilemma is whether I should sell this very clean low mileage Camry in excellent condition with no apparent current problems while I can still probably get a decent price, or to take a chance that it will last another 5-6 years with no serious sludge problem. It seems that I read on this site somewhere that valve seal damage on a low mileage engine is a good indicator of a sludged engine. Any thoughts or opinions about this dilemma will be appreciated. Also should I replace the sparks plugs? While I only have 36000 miles, the car is 4.75 years old.

Thank you all.

Mr_Shiftright

If your engine was "opened" and found clean, what's your worry? Just be very attentive to maintenance. No sense getting rid of a perfectly good car that you've already borne the depreciation on.

Consider these events as your wake-up call to stricter maintenance and as the commencement of a good relationship with the dealer (sounds like they took good care of you in this case).

cliffy1

Let me make sure I understand this. Your dealer volunteered to remove your valve cover and inspect it because you were worried about sludge. They found no sludge but did find that your valve seals were cracking. Cracked valve seals have been discussed here as being an alternate reason to see smoke at start up. It has also been reported here that Toyotas seem to need valve seals more often than other makes.

Now, your dealer goes ahead and replaces your valve seals under warranty with nary a question to you. That sounds like some pretty decent folks in your dealer's service department.

Finally, with new valve seals, great customer support and no sign of sludge, you are thinking about selling it? Why?

cliffy1

Has anybody looked at the Better Business Bureau's web site lately? Their wording and rating has changed dramatically. I wouldn't really bring this up, but some people were really clubbing Toyota over this. Good news is hard to come by.

Mr_Shiftright

Well, as I mentioned, you have to know how the BBB works. They are not an investigative body. Think of them as a "recording and reporting" agency without any knowledge of cars, and not an investigative one that understands automobiles. Two different animals. They are not like NHTSA for instance, not at all. There is often confusion about the BBB. Some folks don't even know it's totally business supported, and probably even funded by Toyota in part.

armtdm

Well. having tried to use the BBB in the past for resolutions of various claims or problems the conclusion is they are a worthless organization. It used to be that you could get them to act on somehing or even relay to you what problems with a store were if you called in etc. Not any more. Law suits, attorneys and the companies that pay their membership fees have gotten to them They no longer report specific problems with a store, only that there have been some and been resolved and this is done via voice mail so you cannot even speak to a rep. They can take no action other then to send a report back to the store noting the complaint (not even worth the hassle of filing out) which other then peer pressure is useless. They have become a pretty useless tool in the overall consumer arsenal against fraud and deception.

cliffy1

If that's our opinion of the BBB, why didn't you say so back when Toyota was being clubbed for their old rating with them?

john339

srbin - given the problems you have had with your low mileage '97 Camry I can completely understand you questioning its reliability.

36,000 miles is pretty darn low milage to be having major surgery on an engine. The fact that your problems are similar to what other owners have reported indicates a certain weakness in these engines, in my opinion.

The quandry is you are about out of warranty, and the SPA will expire in 11 months. If any more engine or sludge problems crop up on your Camry, you will have no recourse, and the cost of these repairs can be huge, sometimes as high as $5000 or more.

john339

Hi Cliffy -

Have you disclosed all of the connections and communications you receive from the Toyota Corporation on this issue?

Who alerted you to yesterday's update to part of the BBB? or do you just check the BBB web site daily? Of course why would you bother checking the BBB rating every day when you fully discounted it before, plus said that all auto makers have the same bad rating (not true).

In the interest of full disclosure, how did this information come to you, was it an official message you received from Toyota? I thought you were just some low level dealership finance guy without any connections with Toyota on this issue other than your normal business ones.

Anyway, it looks like your (Toyota?) contact forgot to reveal all of Toyota's BBB ratings. Opps.

Here is what the BBB, to this day, continues to post regarding how parts of the Toyota corporation responds to customers.

"Based on our standards, we rate this company as having an unsatisfactory business record. An unsatisfactory rating is given when a pattern in the company's customer complaints causes us concern, when the company does not respond to complaints, or when it will not substantiate its advertising claims. In this case, our complaint history for this company shows that although the business has responded to some customer complaints brought to its attention by the Bureau, others remain unanswered"

carlitosway

After reading all these postings(I started from the beginning of this forum and it took me two nights), I now realized why people here wanted to see my oil change reciepts. Posters like Ms. Blake, dbauman, and others were ridiculed, poked upon and made fun of by these naysayers. Now I do understand. John, innovations, and jj I can sincerely say that my situation was not different from these people and my problem with that Toyota Camry was(and still is) I think as prevalent today as it was two years or a year ago. I wasn't really aware that it is this common and my mistake was I was very much an uninformed and apathetic consumer. However, my reciepts are still with me including the repair work that my dealership performed in my car (it was around $3000.00). I will try to contact my dealership again and maybe I can recover this amount. Since this is the holy week and I am a devout catholic, I will donate half of that amount to charity if I do recover it. I hope that all these people who had problems with the sludge Toyota engine can solve their problems.
God bless and have a nice weekend!

Your compadre,
Carlito

john339

Carlito,

I have only been on this board since the SPA was announced but I too scanned back to the beginning where people were being routinely lambasted for even daring to suggest that there might be a problem.

Well fast-forward to today and you see the daily reports of sludged Toyotas, Toyotas admission of thousands of sludged cars, Pat Goss having 50+ in his shop alone, vehicles with 9000 miles being sludged, facts revealed about how the Toyota Dealer Council complained about the problem 3 years ago, and Toyota's bold claims that the owners are to blame. It gives one a clearer picture of where the customer is coming from on this whole issue.

I do hope you get your money back!

Mr_Shiftright

John--valve stem seals isn't really" major surgery". I think putting it that way might alarm people unnecessarily, if they need to have this done. It's a pretty simple job that does not require engine disassembly. There is no "trauma" to the engine, in other words, and presuming no major sludge issues, the bad stem seals do not damage the engine. All it does is suck a little oil down the guides during periods of high engine vacuum.

STill, valve stem seals is supposed to be an age-related disease, more common to cars with 80K on up. So early seal failure is unusual. The only time I've seen it is when the seals themselves are a defective design, and this has occurred on quite a few makes of cars in the past. The fix is replacement with a new design.

cliffy1

What an interesting post from you in #4955. Why the sudden interest in disclosing where information comes from? I'm not the one hiding who I am here. Maybe I just did what you claim to have done and did a google search. Maybe I did just as you said and did a random check of the BBB web site. As you have pointed out before, why does it matter how or why I did?

As to your information on the BBB, you have pasted dated material. Here is the link the BBB web site http://www.labbb.org/scripts/cgiip.exe/WService=wsbroker1/C%3A/Inetpub/wwwroot/SouthlandReport/default.htm?hCompID=13022092&hAKAID=2&hAddrID=1

Here is the text for those of you like John339 who have a cached version of the page:

Based on our standards, we rate this company as having a satisfactory business record. To be rated satisfactory, we must first have company background information. The company must also have been established long enough for us to gain a clear understanding of the nature of its business to determine that it is not a marketplace problem. Finally, the company must have given proper consideration to any matters we may have referred to it. Our complaint history for this company shows that any customer complaints brought to the company's attention by the Bureau have been properly addressed. A Better Business Bureau report is based on our file information and experience with an individual company over the past three years. The Bureau does not endorse, recommend, or disapprove of any company, product or service.

cliffy1

Oh, and how did you know it changed yesterday? I certainly didn't give a day.

john339

Thanks Cliffy,

I think you just answered the question with your evasive non-answer of how you were alerted to the change only hours after it happened. So in the interest of full corporate disclosure, you are completely denying any specific communications with any level of, or any employee of the Toyota Corporation on this sludge issue?

And as for the information I posted, it is most certainly current and on the BBB board as we speak. Had you truely done the search that you claimed, you would have found it, in my opinion.

cliffy1

Again, how did you know that I posted that hours after the change?

ramblinon

Yep, seems like the good ole boys at Toyota are starting to be a little more customer friendly in the Gelation/sludge issue. This friendly attitude has seemingly been adopted only after the continuous and growing public awareness made possible by the consumer. Service Writers/Managers continued with the eye rolls and "never heard of such a problem" until it simply became such clear and open knowledge that the Letter was issued. Still, dealerships (those to my personal knowledge) were leary of doing any investigative work. It took a continuing and growing customer outcry and media attention to cause the Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss Toyota nice person persona.

No Cliffy, I don't think Toyota does anything special when they actually honor a warranty problem such as srbins post. Isn't that what is supposed to happen?

Yes, The Times They Are A Changing. But it took a mighty effort by the consumer to cause the change. Actually, I think that Toyota employees actually involved in the mess should at the very least be embrassed; from those at the dealerships on up.

This should not go away until a full and unconditional report can be filed and verified of the root cause and the means to make the problem whole.

Strange. I seldom stay so angry an hurt over anything. But, the stick in the eye does not feel good.

Best regards,

Ed

zielinw

Boy, now we go from sludge to leaky valve stems. The soap opera does not seem to have an ending.

I have had five Nissans, two Toyotas, two Caddys, two Chevys, and one Chrysler (what a mistake that was), over the last 20 years. All of them had from over 130,000 to 210,000 miles before I traded them in. None of the above mentioned cars ever burned oil, nor did they display either white smoke nor blue smoke during that time.

So, I can assume that the valve stems in these cars were probably ok at the end of their life.

I don't consider getting any internal engine work minor, and neither does my pocket book.

But, I have also read that not breaking in a new engine correctly can cause the valve seats not to seat properly. Does that happen often?

cliffy1

It is extremely common and actually not a big deal. Leaking valve seals don't constitute a major problem but rather, an annoyance as long as they don't get too bad. My 91 MR2 blows a bit of smoke in the morning from this.

john339

Hi Cliffy,

I think you are sincerely passionate about your product and I do not intend to question your credibility. I'm sure you are trustworthy and are good at what you do. I think your posts are well intentioned but off the mark given the body of sludge information out there now.

Unfortunately, whoever you relied on for the alert to the BBB change is not providing you with all the facts regarding the timing of that change. Therefore I feel they are doing you a great disservice. To put you in the middle is not fair to you.

It was documented in the media that on March 13th, Toyota's Corporate spokesman indicated that Toyota was lobbying the BBB to change part of Toyota's rating. That partial rating change occurred yesterday, March 28th, and posted on the web after that, your post came this morning.

The timing of your post is much more than a well-timed random google search, I think that is a safe assumption, especially considering your previous vigorous discounting of these ratings.

I will leave it to others to make their own judgments about where that timely information came from and how it could possibly have come to your attention so quickly, ....and why.

Ironically Cliffy, I think you just became the latest victim of Toyota's Sludge, in my opinion. Again Cliffy, I admire your passion for your product.

cliffy1

Where did you hear that Toyota lobbied the BBB? Do you have a link for that one? The only reason I brought it up was because others here felt it was an important point so I wanted them to witness the change. I still believe BBB ratings are not a big deal, but others (presumably you since you brought it up) feel differently.

Where did you get this info anyway?

ramblinon

I actually have owned two Corvettes that I pampered as usual, and had zero engine problems. The last Corvette was an '86 which I drove for five years (two years after pay off) and traded at 129,000 miles (according to my memory). Many problems with things on this Corvette but not one engine problem; no white smoke, no blue smoke, no loss of power, no sludge. My list of cars owned is indeed a long one and includes top to near bottom models. Never have I had sludge, gelation, smoke or engine problems. I did have to weld the exhaust manifold on a 1990 Jeep Cherokee Larado after 139,000 miles. The auto antenna quit; the CAT went; I replaced all hoses and belts twice and went through two batteries; no engine problems on the straight six.

The experts needs to sit back inhale hard and say there is indeed a problem in the Toyota.

Again, the jig is up, the cat is out of the bag, the frosting, coked stuff, sludge, gelation is not normal. I changed oil on the 86 corvette every 3000 to 5000 miles usually at any place convient at the time. I drove that bad boy really hard; harder than I ever drove my Triumph TR6 and most certainly harder than I would ever drive a V6 Solara.

I did have a rather new Cadilac sludge/gel after antifreeze leaked into the engine. I have never bought another Cadilac

Best regards,

Ed

john339

Cliffy,

Are you going to disclose the source of the BBB alert?

As I see it, there were only two parties who were intimately aware of the change, the BBB and Toyota. For you to be provided that information so quickly is curious, in my opinion.

ramblinon

I once had my full name listed in my ID but changed it after Mackabee (sp) challenged my experiences at a local Toyota dealer where at he is an employee. I changed it in fear of receiving poor or improper service or worse. I have since regreted the removal of my name after counsel with a legally associated friend. If I ever really care I'll redo my Edmunds ID and reinclude my last name....although it is already known.

Again, fear the Survey; fear the Service Writer; fear the Service Manager; mark your filters (including air) and keep changing the mark on the filter(s). Perhaps have the mark witnessed by a Notery Republic with photo. Wow, what a feeling.
Plus, if you ask for your parts back, ensure you are present at the vehicle to be sure the parts are yours. Easy for a person to hand you an Original Oil Filter taken from another vehicle. No trust. No confidence. No more Toyotas.

Even the Roman Empire fell. Toyota is not really that big to be using such a big stick (in the eye).

Best regards,

Ed

cliffy1

Here's the funny part. You seem to have some insider information yourself don't you? If you tell us your source for the "lobbying" comment was, maybe we can talk further.

zielinw

Rather then keeping the current Toyota owners on pins-and-needles (at least the ones of us who read this site or the alt.autos.toyota site).

Toyota could do the right thing (IMHO), and honor any sludge related problem, if the owner submits valid receipts with no exceedance of the oil change intervals (7500 max). We as owners are obligated to provide receipts for proper maintenance. We should not be required to provide any additional data to support our claim.

But, when Toyota equivocates by rejecting the receipts using sludge as evidence of owner abuse, Toyota wins the battle and will lose the loyal customer war. I find it very hard to believe that Toyota thinks their current position is the right thing to do.

Currently, every time I start my Lexus I wonder if I am driving it the proper time, distance, and speed to prevent future sludge. This is a burden caused solely by Toyota's response to the sludge issues. Assurances that if I change my oil every 3000 miles I need not worry, does not help much. So, I am left with "only time will tell" as my current guide. Not a fun-loving new car experience.

The very act of not accepting receipts from various oil change facilities, is beyond all sense of fairness in my opinion. It is punishing the many good Toyota owners for the supposed dishonest acts of a few.

mrrogers

out of a 1976 Pontiac Grand Prix that I repaired. I bought the car "as is." I removed the valve covers, oil pan, and intake manifold. I replaced the oil pump and the valve lifters. I used a wire brush to remove the sludge, and cleaned the oil return holes with brazing wire. It ran good, and I had no problems selling the car. I realize that a Lexus V6 is a more sophisticated engine than a GM pushrod V-8, but I think it is possible that you and your family could enjoy the car for a long time.

sandman46

what you say makes alot of sense. Toyota could rue the day when the proverbial sh-t hits the fan and the true cause comes out about this sludge problem. As my grandmother always said, Honesty is the best policy! It's hard to believe that only owners of these particular Toyotas have poor vehicle maintenance and all other Toyota owners and other car models, for that matter, all do the proper maintenance! Toyota should take a step back and re-evaluate their position. Unbelievable, do they really believe all this bull crap that they are saying, I just don't get it.

john339

Cliffy,

RE: Full disclosure of Corporate Contacts

So, regarding the BBB alert, I can assume that you did not have any contacts with any employee(s) of any corporation that has a stake in the outcome of this sludge issue? In no way was information passed to you and then somehow posted here?

For the record, I do not work for any auto manufacturer, auto dealer, wholesaler, car wash, gas station, drive-thru restaurant, law firm, consumer rights firm, advertising firm, marketing firm, oil company, valve stem company, publishing company, sludge removal company, oil filter company, oil change company, etc etc.... nor have I had any contacts with the above regarding sludge.

p.s. regarding the 'inside' information you referred to, you guessed it, Google! Plus its already been posted on Edmunds.

oldharry

I wouldn't worry about that Camry. It has given you good service so far. As it will be in use for shorter trips as your second car, it will not accumulate miles as fast, so be sure to keep the miles /months recommendations for service. If it's clean at 36000 miles, it will stay clean if you continue to maintain it.

Harry

fxashun

Like Brentwoods' cars. Short trips have been blamed for sludge before. Make sure you change the oil every day.

carlitosway

Sirs,
For your information, I had receipts on my Camry and the dealer still refused warranty work on my car. When they told me that the "sludge problem" was not part of the warranty work, I assumed that they were telling me the truth and not just pulling a wool over my eyes. All my oil changed were done in the dealerships. This was not one dealership though but several dealerships.
It is quite amusing that after all these proofs that they had the audicity to still screw customers who are not knowledgeable on this things.

However, I really admire Mr. Cliffy for his loyalty with Toyota. From his previous postings I learned that he is in fact an employee(?) of a Toyota dealership. Mr. Cliffy, in my organization a person like you is a goldmine because loyalty is the first thing that we look for in an individual. Please sir, don't take this as an insult but a sincere appreciation of your character. Keep it up and I hope that you will continue helping us to resolve our problems with your company. Thank you.

Carlito

carlitosway

My dad has a cane,a dog, and he is also blind. I just think that Mr. Cliffy is just a typical loyal employee. When a ship is going down, a dedicated sailor goes down with the ship. Mr. Cliffy, in my opinion, is that sailor.

Carlito

fxashun

Plus he doesn't claim to be the captain. I'd be lookin' for a lifeboat or somethin' cause thersa iceberg a comin and this ship has just barely started turnin'.

hlron

Poor Cliffy....c'mon, my fellow TH posters, he is valuable to this and other TH forums.

Besides, maybe we need to keep the TH member agreement in mind. Although I have been guilty of some of the below in the past...including to the point of apologizing once....it seems like maybe some of us are kind of in violation of the below wording I copied and pasted from the agreement:

"If you wish to take issue with the statements of other Town Hall members or
Edmunds.com staff, please engage in healthy, mature debate and not
immature behavior or name-calling. Civility and respect underlie the success of
an on-line community such as Town Hall. While we want to maintain an inviting
environment for all members, disruptive conduct, such as off-topic comments in
a topic-oriented discussion, is not allowed."

The TH membership also mentions harrassment is not tolerated....seems Cliffy is getting a bit of that.

Just some thoughts and opinion from a fellow TH member. Best wishes to all for many sludge free miles in any vehicle.

mediamogulx

I've posted this on a different but related topic.

You know... I'm reading these articles, and my jaw is on the floor with disbelief! when I read that people are complaining about Sludged engines, I had to say enough is enough. What is this nonsense? I think people have BRAIN sludge not engine sludge. They've been smokin' crack or pot or something. It's sludged their brains! I will never believe a soul who claims that their toyota engine has "SLUDGED". What is this nonsense? I drive a mint condition 1988 2WD truck which has had great treatment and regular maintainance by me. It has run for nearly 205,000 miles with no major problems and definately no sludge! I've even pulled the valve cover off and looked under there. I whiped out the oil which has splashed up on there, and it was totally clean and spotless. I don't even run full synthetic. Just Dino Juice. So what is this about sludge in toyota engines? Why is it that ALL toyota owners from those years aren't complaining of sludged engines. It's the same engine you know! All 4 and 6 Cyl engines are exactly the same. You know what I think? I think it's some Jackass who didn't change his/her oil OR who took it to Jiffy quick lube (who in turn didn't change the oil). I heard the same story 3 years ago about a '95 4 runner that was taken to the dealership. It was some inocent female who was complaining that the car wasn't handling well. Well guess what... she had driven the car for over 30,000 miles and NEVER changed the oil. The damn thing still drove to the dealership, but they had to replace the engine at her expense because she never changed the oil. What rubbish. I refuse to believe that these ideots out here are so miss informed. They intend to smear the name of one of the greatest car makers of all times, and I refuse to let them. Bring on the sludge because I know my cars, and I garauntee you it's your own fault.

Now I know my Toyotas. They're damn fine machines. I don't think a single person claiming to have a sludged engine is being forth coming. It's very simple. Irregardless of what you may think... If you change the oil in your car AND the oil filter every factory recommended interval, your engine will last a lifetime AT LEAST. Now if you are one of these Bozo's that takes your car to one of those quick Lube places, I have no pitty. It takes 10-15 minutes MAX to change your oil out. Quit being so LAZY and do it yourself. Then you KNOW what you're getting. Or if you're really just plain lazy, take it to toyota and let them do it. At least then it's their own damn fault if it messes up. Otherwise, quit your griping!

pdalpsher

cliffy has made no secret of his association with Toyota.

You don't even own a Toyota, your interest is indirect at best with your recommendation that your grandparents purchase a Camry. IMO you need to do some disclosing on a regular basis like cliffy does.

mediamogulx

Pat Gross Doesn't know the back of his hand from his rear end. And personally, I'd like to see some pictures and facts on these engines that have failed. I don't buy into the fact that an engine will do this. I've worked with them, and quite honestly it doesn't make a lick of sense. Now taking this into consideration... if this was in fact a true problem... Wouldn't all owners experience it? Why only a small number? Honestly... I don't buy it. It's total nonsense. I mean... I've had toyotas in my familly since birth and have NEVER seen such problems. Not only that, but the engine in the sienna is the same V6 that's in the rest of the line up. As well as the 4 cyl. Further more, that engine is nothing more than a retuned version of the older V6's and 4 Cyls. Why has MY engine not sludged after 205,000 miles? If this were indeed a true issue, I would say that ALL toyotas would be experiencing the problem. But they aren't. And as for the folks who took their cars to the dealership... If they can in fact PROVE via Receipts that they took it to Toyota... IT's as good as repaired. Does anyone have numbers on how many exactly have been replaced? I'd be interested to see, because I don't believe that many if any have been because it's all a crock.

mjday1972

I find it somewhat curious that john339 wants cliffy to disclose his connections with Toyota (which he has done so repeatedly) yet john339 won't disclose his interest in this matter when asked.

John339 appears to have a grudge against Toyota. He has presented some articles for the community to review (he's done this in many Toyota boards). These articles bring to light the situation of a handfull of owners who have sludged engines. Does this mean there is a pervasive problem with the engine design? I don't think so. The facts are that about 3000 out of 3.3 million engines have experienced sludge thus far. Reasonable people find this to be statistically insignificant (which is not to say that a sludged engine is not a significant problem, but based on the numbers it doesn't appear frequently). If this were a design problem in the engine, wouldn't this appear more frequently? We've seen a lot of opinions posted as to the root cause, but the root cause is still not known at this point and there may be many factors that contribute to this problem (including owner maintenance).

For john339 to claim that the reliability of a Toyota is suspect because one tenth of one percent of engines have exhibited sludge is downright irresponsible, especially since some of those instances were at the fault of the owner.

zielinw

Yes, the numbers are in the minutiae category. That is why I cannot understand Toyota's corporate stance on this issue.

bobistheoilguy

This is a 12,000 mile v6 toyota motor at the dealership. This is what was left after they used a WINNs engine flush for 45 minutes on it.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/sludgedmeashgear.jpg

 Now, in ANY other engine other than toyota, to build sludge up like this would be near impossible in 12k miles. Your 4 cyl engine only has one set of gears like what you see in this picture and the v6 has 2 sets. Also the v6 holds 3.8qts of oil vs most trucks hold up to 5 and 6qts. So to compare your older engine against the new ones and tell everyone they don't know what you're talking about is a little foolish since you really don't know nor understand the whole issue.

There is a lot of valid sludge problems due to toyotas recommendations of 7500 mile drain intervals and engine design, and of course there is alot of people who are to blame as you suggest due to total failure to do any oil drains. I'd be careful about classifying everyone under one category.

bob

Lubricant Specialist

zielinw

Yes, the numbers are in the minutiae category. That is why I cannot understand Toyota's corporate stance on this issue.

mjday1972

I was looking for information on this issue and you do find a lot of complaints of engine sludge. Here is an example:

"I bought a Toyota Seinna minivan one year ago new, it had 114 miles on it. I took it in for oil change at 3800 miles and got anouther oil change from Toyota at 13,000 miles. My service guy told me I sould dump the car as soon as possible, that the engine is sludged really bad and it would not last one year if I dont get the oil changed every 1000 miles.
I have talked to other techs and thay told me no way at 13000 miles sould this car be so bad. So I called back Mike at Toyota and told him of my findings and he said all the v-6 engines are heating up so bad that it's cooking that oil and turning it to mud like mine if it is not changed every 3000 miles. He told me my engine is basically no good and it will blow. I just cant see how this could be possiable on a new vehicle even if I missed a recommended maintenance. Also I was told that anything pertaining these repairs or any others concerning the engine is not covered by warranties. I still owe 5 years of payments."

This individual went almost 10,000 miles between oil changes!!! How can that be a properly maintained engine? It's complaints like this that should give people pause in blaming the manufacturer.