Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

majorthomecho

Cholo, you can call the state bar for your state and ask if they have any complaints against the attorney.

Also, do you know how long she has been practicing in this area of law? Definitely not an area of law I would feel comfortable having a greenie (someone just out of law school).

majorthomecho

No, it is not for sure that Toyota has a sludge issue. What is for sure is that this is a very popular thread.

sgergen

Well, everyone can go home now. joe3891 has (in 2 whole posts to this thread) figured it all out.

I'll be expecting sludge in my 2000 Sienna when I get out to the parking lot.



Scott

seelig

yet it is......at least to me and a few other pickup guys that read it.......LOL
although, a REAL sludge problem and the one you guys relate to, is two different things altogether.

210delray

... through these 2059 posts and find how many individuals actually had sludge?

It's probably in the single digits, or low double digits at most.

seelig

the ones with REAL sludge problems, or the one created by mechanical related?

210delray

...claimed by posters in this Edmunds thread.

majorthomecho

not that crazy, Del.

gimpyrx

I thought not.
If you're tired of my Amsoil post then open your eyes BY ALL MEANS.The oil has NOTHING to do with GLYCOL being in it.
What part do you NOT get? DUH

fxashun

do a usenet search.

And the fact that the only multiple posting on sludge are Toyota should raise a few eyebrows. If this were a real hoax it sure is everywhere and only about these two engines. Why would anyone go through the trouble. There are posts on Deja about the Camry that go back to 1997.

One thing is sure though this would not be the place to look for evidence since there is really only 10 or so of us posting here. And it's actually about 50/50 ratio of those who believe and those that don't.

Gimpy while I agree with you on the glycol in the oil you did void your engine warranty by not changing your oil. Going by Toyota's past on the warranty coverage you'd better have a great lawyer. But on another note...I wonder if Toyota covers their suspension or brakes if somone does a +1 upgrade on their wheels and something goes wrong?

jeffmust2

Only if there's glycol in the brake fluid.

gimpyrx

For us VICTIMS.
I got it covered.

sgergen

No, I haven't tried Amsoil. To be honest, I have no desire to do so. Dino oil and the various off the sheld synthetics coupled with a good quality oil filter have served me well.

Toyota/Lexus (and other manufacturers) do not support extended oil change intervals no matter what product you are using.

By making the choice to go to an extended oil change interval you effectively voided your warranty on all lubricated parts. Plain and simple, you didn't play by the rules of the warranty.

You instead chose to rely upon the warranty supplied by your oil supplier, Amsoil.

Now there is a problem which may not even be related to your oil, but it doesn't matter anymore, you voided your warranty on lubricated parts. You're not a victim, you knowingly made your choice and now you have to live with it. Tough hop.

Good luck with your lawyers, you'll need it.

Scott

armtdm

That I can drive my new BMW according to manufacturer recommendaitons of 15,000 miles between changes and if my engine blows because the head gasket leaked coolant into the oil and caused sludge that they will cover it. On my previous one where the oil change interval was recommended to be 3000 they obvioulsy would not have as the glycol would not have caused the sludge only the oil could.

Thank you for clearing that up for me Scott!

isellhondas

And still no answer...my vote still go's to Toyota. I just can't swallow the theory that sludge can be the fault of the car.

Once, years ago, I listened to a huckster as he tried to get me to become an Amsoil dealer. It was one of those multi-level marketing schemes.

I was not impressed at the time.

Kinda like getting tricked into going to an Amway meeting...been there?

I guess that even if I were sold on Amsoil I would use the stuff knowing that if something were to happen I just might be out of luck on my warranty due to change intervals.

Guess I'll stay tuned...who knows, maybe I'm wrong!

fxashun

There probably will be no "answer". Unless ou are one of the people who actually has a sludged Toyota product. Luckily it ain't me but I feel for those that it does happen to.

isellhondas

I really do. I just don't understand, that's all.

Especially since I've never heard of this problem except here in this forum.

sgergen

I have no idea where you were going with post #2068.

Tell you what, ask BMW what they think about putting Amsoil in your new BMW and extending your oil changes out to 25,000 miles. Ask them about warranty implications.

Scott

adc100

And I plan on pushing the envelope just a bit on my new Sentra...That is I expect to go 7500 miles on an oil change, no matter what the time interval. But you can bet on one thing, the **documentation** on miles/time period will be **compliant**. You tan talk till you are blue in the face about the failure needng to be related to the the oil/lubrication. But intentionally going outside the warranty requirements is just plain foolish and silly. It gives the auto manufacturer a huge bone to chew on (like your leg)!!

I agree with isellhondas and sgergen: gimpy is toast.

armtdm..I am not talking aim at your statements or disagree with your statements. I just believe in being conservative when dealing with warranty issues.

acuraowner

Gimpy this a direct quote out of my owners manual and I am 100% sure yours says something similar if not the same thing.

"You may use a synthetic motor oil if it meets the same requirements given for conventional motor oil; energy conserving, a service classification of SJ and the proper weight as shown on the chart in the Engine Oil section of your Owner's Manual.
When using synthetic oil, you must follow the oil and filter change intervals given in the maintenance schedule.
If synthetic oil is used in your vehicle, per the precautions listed above, your warranty should not be affected.
However, if it is not changed at the prescribed intervals, or if it can be shown that the use of synthetic oil has caused the malfunction, warranty may be denied."

Lexus could say your failure to change the oil for 15,000+ miles caused a headgasket problem.

im_brentwood

Or,

Perhaps there was a problem with the car that was greatly exacerbated by leaving the oil in for that long.

If there was a coolant leak, even a tiny one, 3-5K oil changes would have prevented engine damage.

Bill

paulo3

I wonder if they are related? Percy sure can sing though!

lokki

is somewhat deflated by the fact that they have stopped almost entirely, if not entirely. Why?

Either all the Toyotas that were going to sludge all did so, and it's over....

Or whoever was doing all that posting finally got bored with it.

It doesn't make any sense to me that we have not seen any more Sienna posters.... If they were randomly wandering in (and into other forums) they should still be randomly wandering in. Ican think of no reason that there should have been such a surge of posts which has so completely subsided, except for one.

For whatever it's worth...

catgem

and Paulo,it was Percy Sledge.......

seelig

a car is like a women, and if a man loves his women, he wouldn't neglect her........15,000 for an oil change....DOHH!

joe3891

and no sludge,who said that?

fxashun

that topic has a small number of regulars, the number of sludged vehicles is nowhere near that (we hope) so the number of slugists would be quite small here.

210delray

Long time, passing....

Lokki, I was wondering that myself.

We had a spate of them; some were one-hit wonders.

Now we're left with the Fearsome Foursome (4.5 if you count fxashun -- he's seen sludge, but hasn't had it).

gimpyrx

sgergen.... BMW Z3 48,000 miles, 2 oil changes, NO sludge. I guess this one was a fluke since it has had no problems. His other one went 68,000 miles with 3 oil changes. And the dealersip did every (Amsoil 0w30) oil change. Darn! NO problems.

And the lawyers can not wait. Another 1999 RX owner up north just had the same exact problem as me,he had 33,000 miles on his. And has ALL of his receipts. 3 more waiting on oil sample results.
Time WILL tell.

brentwoodvolvo....WRONG again! It would have caused bigger problems later on, like bearing failure. Just because you drain the glycol/oil does not make it any better. The glycol still gets right back into your fresh oil. You have got to FIX the GLYCOL leak. Oil drain not a factor.
Nice try.

lokki

and what is the point of it? Come back after you've had your car repaired and let us know who paid for it... Amsoil, Toyota... or you.

We know you have glycol in the oil... you know the opinion of everyone here....

You haven't added anything to the conversation for some time now.

adc100

You hit the nail on the head.

suvshopper4

I don't agree with gimpyrx; I agree with others that his actions have voided his warranty protection rights.

But, in fairness, he is taking a lot of flak from other posters here, and his posts, as **** as they may be, are mostly in response to those attacks. So, even though he may not be adding anything new, he has a right to respond.

I am not sympathetic to him, but I know I would not want to be in his position. Which is why I follow the manual's 'recommendations' (which I take to mean 'requirements').

seelig

a thing or two.
1. while amsoil is a great product and will stand behind it's product in the event of an oil related failure. problem is, this glycol leak sorta creates a catch 22, because what happened to Gimpy was in my opinion, was a failure that would have been caught early on, had regular oil change intervals been adhered to. but then again, amsoil says you can go 25K between changes, so he may have a chance at them pickin up the tab on this one. it would be in amsoil's best interest to do so as well, cause if a story like this hits the tabloids, who knows.
-
2. while i feel for you Gimpy, and certainly understand your posts and your frustrations, i think i will stay with Mobil 1 and oil changes at 5K. i do however have a question for you. what convinced you to go with Amsoil?

armtdm

I will inform you why I use Amsoil but I also use RedLine Gear Oil as it works better for me. I am really a true skeptic and cynic and believe no one and this was also true with Amsoil and their claims. I started using it almost 11 years ago but started with 3000 mile changes and oil analysis. Took about 5 years for me to get up to one year changes (8,000-12,000 miles with a fitler at 6 months) before I felt comfortable that it did not wear or or get contaminated. So, on three cars I go about 12,000 miles between changes. (2000 Buick GSE has only 12,000 miles on it but I still will not change at the 7,500 interval in the manual because I now have enough confidence in product to know it works and initial change (switch over) at 4,400 with OEM fill the analysis looked great) My 92 Toyota Camry V6 has 138,000 miles, switched at 1,000 and changed every 7,500 for the past 6 years (front valve cover came off at 120,000 to replace a gasket, like new inside)(tried 15,000 once on the Camry, analysis looked poor so I went back to 7,500) my Toy is a twin turbo that I have been changing at 5000 miles but analysis has been so good I am considering going to 7,500 but it gets so few miles that the 5000 mark takes about 10 months now. So, I would be with you that it is a scam, no oil can do this etc. but I have gradually built up confidence over the years. I use it because I can get it for $4.45/quart same as Mobil 1 and much cheaper then RedLine. If it comes to the point I annot I will probably go to one of the others and stay on schedule. Please remeber then when Mobil 1 came out they also stated 25,000. I have never gone beyond 15,000 myself as in my case I don't like the silicon (dirt ) build up in the samples but oil does not break down.

Anyway, those are my reason. I think their marketing stinks, I think the Pres comes across as sleazy but the stuff works and, unlike the others, they are willing to go out on a limb.

This is long. Saw the jobber I purchase from yesterday and he visits multiple dealerships in the Mid atlantic area. Sludge he says (based on talking to dealerships in area) is not confined to just Toyotas, dealers claim to find it in all brands (EXCEPT HONDAS) Toyota dealer in Greenville, NC has seen a few but they cannot pin point cause, seem to feel it is an emissions component that fails but it could be one of several in each case and it causes nitration which sludges the oil. That Toyota dealer is recommending 2,500-3,000 mile changes with dino and 7,500 with synthetic for Toyotas

gimpyrx

IT WORKS.
I will always use Amsoil. I sell it,install it,and run it in all of my vehicles since 1992.
I have had no problems from any customers,and ALL go extended drain, 2002 models, to 1966 models.
Saves time, money, fuel & environment.

lokki....adc100....You know what they say about opinions.

mapoe3

I too am the proud owner of a 2000 Toyota Sienna with 33K miles and sludge!! We've changed the oil ourselves, every 3K-4K miles, have our little log book with dates and miles, but not all of the receipts - I know, shame on me. We are yet another customer who the Toyota dealer mentioned "sludge in the engine" before looking at the car. Once the sludge was identified, it was "our problem" due to "lack of maintenance". No one asked for any receipts or log book. We've taken the car to two different Toyota dealers and have gone from dealer one saying the repairs could cost anywhere from $5500 to rebuild the existing engine, or $9000 for a new engine. The second dealer, where we purchased the car, got their estimate down to $2k, because the engine wasn't as bad as the first dealer claimed - that should give you a warm fuzzy feeling. Also, when I asked for the phone number to the Toyota service rep that made the "final" decision, I was told they couldn't give me that number. I have taken the car to my own personal mechanic and knowing how we are with our cars, feels that there is in some way a defect in the engine design - he too isn't sure on this one. The last straw - Toyota said we didn't have to have them clean the engine, since it is a non warranty issue, but if it should happen again, sludge-that is, even if I have Toyota do all of the maintenance on the car from the time it is "fixed", they would still not cover sludge as a warranty item, since they weren't the ones to clean the engine initially. So, will I buy another Toyota - NOT! Will I keep the one I have - NOT! Why have I not posted sooner? I've been watching this site for about 2 weeks now, and I hate to say it, but I was looking for others with a similar problem who could offer advise, answers, hints on how to get Toyota to stand behind their product. Nada-this is like watching a soap. Those that have the problem spend all of their efforts having to justify to those that "don't believe". Not very helpful to me at all!

csandste

the problems are far wider than the few people posting here. Just for the record, I believe that Gimpy's problems should be resolved by Amsoil, however I also believe that these other posts are not there as some sort of anti-Toyota conspiracy. Also, although I've had three good Toyotas in the past, I'd really hesitate to purchase another, given this problem and corporate arrogance in reaction to it.


There's also a lot more hits than these examples:

http://philip.greenspun.com/materialism/cars/sienna

"We havw a 1999 Toyota Sienna. At 25,000 miles the engine failed due to sludge. Toyota has failed to back their warranty in one of the most horrendous displays of customer service I have ever seen. We are currently in arbitration to have them give us our money back. I would not reccommend that anyone buy a Toyota product. There are problems with their engine warning system designs and they do not back their products. With only a brief search I have found two other siennas that have the same exact problem. Below is our story if you are interested. Please let me know if your toyota has had a similar problem. "

http://forums.vmag.com/mvsienna1199/messages/77.html

Posted by jj on May 30, 01 at 07:10:24:

Another case of engine sludge.

"Purchased 2000 Toyota Sienna new on May 31, 2000.

Oil changes at 7,000, 10,000, and 16,000 miles.

At 17,000 mi. started smoking.

Used 2.5 qts. of oil on 400 mi. trip.

Took to dealer repair shop - $3,300 repair estimate.

Told not covered under warranty due to lack of mainenance by me.

Told only way Toyota would cover would be if oil changes done every 3,000 to 5,000 mi. by a Toyota dealer (told warranty void if done by anyone else)."

http://yotarepair.com/Sludge%20Zone.html

"

You've entered the Sludge Zone.

 I have been getting more and more questions, or concerns from Toyota owners who are experiencing the Oil Sludging problem. My intention is not to blame the owners or Toyota for the condition but merely open a dialogue so that as many people who visit the site will be informed and have an avenue for assistance.

This seems affect mostly Avalons, Camrys, Celicas, Tercels, and most Lexus 300 series models.

The following topics are links to gather more information about what causes the condition, what others are experiencing and how to present a case for assistance from Toyota Motor Company.

As I gather more information this will expand.

I must again inform you that this in no way associated with Toyota Motor Company and any opinions are based on my 30 years of experience and knowledge.

   

 Article from the AutoChannel.com"

seelig

who ever said it DIDN'T work? i asked you why YOU use it? doesn't matter whether or not it works to me, but rather why YOU use it.
seems to me that even though it works and is obviously a superior product, that the problem isn't in the oil itself, but the rather extended change intervals that allow a problem to crop up but go unnoticed. just saying that it WORKS is a lame excuse for someone asking about a product that you say you know so much about. what you don't know is what the maker is talking about when they say "25K between changes" now do you?
if saying "it works" is your only reason for reccomending the product, then i'm thinking you use it because you are MAYBE a little on the lazy side of doing maintenance chores.
again, while i side with you 100% against Toyota on this matter, i also feel that you failed on your part of keeping the engine in top quality shape by not knowing the facts behind extended oil changes. also, since Amsoil so proudly claims these extended service intervals, they should be held just as accountable for the problem too.
good day sir.

cliffy1

You notice in his last post he admits that he sell Amsoil? I have made no secret of the fact that I work at a Toyota dealership and have tried to assist and answer questions when I can from a dealer's perspective. This is the first time I have seen him admit that his point of view needs to be taken into consideration.

gimpyrx

Carry your [non-permissible content removed] to Amsoil.com and see for your self. Just a lazy jet mech.

seelig

so defensive? you can't answer my questions? that's fine.
geez....what a hothead.

seelig

one more question that you might be able to answer......if your chosen method of maintenance "WORKS", then why is your engine broken?
good luck on this one now!

fxashun

The engine had anitfreeze in it. No amount of maintenance will avoid the types of malfuctions that cause coolant in the oil. That post proves your ignorance.
Not that I'm on Gimp's side or anything, I just hate stupid smart a$$es.

im_brentwood

I agree that coolant in the oil is bad and does indicate a problem with the engine.

But.. maybe leaving the oil in there that long to mix with the coolant exacerbated the problem?

Bill

catgem

Actually,these folks have been pretty nice to me,have not been in the attack mode for many months. Some things just have no easy answers. My advice to you is to get it fixed at the cheaper Toyota dealer,and then drive that sucker into the ground!!! Or you could try to sell it on your own....if you go through a dealer,I bet they will know about sludge. I plan to write off my repair as a casualty loss,on my taxes,because I wuz robbed!!! And I am spreading the word...you asked for it,you got it! Toyota....BTW, you can also go to arbitration,which is about as useful as going to counseling with terrorists.

majorthomecho

Cliffy, actually Gimp has said before now that he was an Amsoil dealer. However, he did not make that disclosure until recently. I think that fact should have been divulged from the get go.

And Gimp, you say you have sludge, I believe you. You say that you have glycol in the oil, I believe you. However, because you did not follow TOYOTA'S recommendations, I think you are out of luck.

I want to ask you, do you think that someone should be able to ignore a manufacturer's warnings, be injured some how by that maker's product, and still be able to sue the manufacturer? Personally, I don't. I think personal responsibility comes into play.

And do you think you can answer my question without the insulting dodges that you have used in the past?

To our newest Sienna sludge victim (or any Sienna sludge victim), what are the recommended intervals in your manual? I am sure someone posted these before, but I don't want to go searching back through the posts. If it is 5k to 7.5k mile intervals, I don't see how Toyota (or their dealers) can justify saying, "Well, you should have changed the oil at 3k to 5k mile intervals."

If Toyota or their reps promised something orally which was different than what was written and you tried to hold them to it, they would probably tell you that the written word takes precedence. Why should this be any different? I mean they seem to be saying, "Do what we say and not what we have written."

Personally, I am following the extreme conditions schedule (give or take a few hundred miles) in my manual although I do not do any extreme conditions driving.

As always, the afflicted have my sympathies.

seelig

if Gimpy had followed the maintenance plan as layed out by the manf., he would have caught the presence of glycol before it was too late......now that is being ignorant. my last post was to get some of the answers i asked, answered. unfortunately, this poor chap has taken a defensive attitude to his own wrong doing. for someone to say they never changed oil for 15K because they use Amsoil, which by the way is what i would use if it were sold where i live, i totally see that as no problem. but at some time during this interval, i would inspect the oil off the stick, which apparently he did not. that shows laziness, and ignorance.

Mr_Shiftright

mapoe3 has a tough row to hoe too because he did the oil changes himself and wrote up his own log book. Toyota could very well challenge that. Mapoe would have to have an impeccable case presented in arbitration with no slip-ups because one slip up or error and Toyota will be all over him to discredit his log book. Certainly if I were arbitrator I would check and double check every self-maintainer's records, statements, receipts, etc., and if I saw some multiple errors or figures that didn't jive, I would tend to frown on the self-maintenance as a "case" against Toyota.

hoofer

1. Be sure to follow the OEM "severe" maintenance schedule, even if you drive "normal". Make sure that you keep adequate records. I have more details and FREE maintenance tracking forms at my site: www.HooferPM.com

2. Use one oil change provider, either the dealer or a single chain type place. Then if there are ANY questions regarding the condition of your engine relative to oil change quality you have a PARTNER.

3. Use regular spectrographic oil analysis. I do a baseline at 1,000 and then every other oil change (about 2X per year) after that. Spectrographic oil analysis will detect unburned fuel, coolant, contaminants, and wear metals in the ppm range WAY BEFORE conventional methods will detect a problem. I use it on my engine and transmission and was able to get the OEM to pay $2250 to rebuild my transmission on my 1996 last year when it was 30,000 miles OUT of warranty. I showed them via my spectrographic oil analysis that the problem originated while I was UNDER warranty. I have more details on spectrographic analysis and how you can buy kits for as little as $7.50 each at my site: www.HooferPM.com

4. Consider an extended warranty. I have a link to a ".org" aftermarket warranty review site. The only extended warranties to consider are the EXCLUSIONARY type where everything is covered unless specifically excluded (things like tires, paint, brake linings, and other normal wear items). Any aftermarket warranty you consider should pay with a corporate VS/MC for the widest acceptance. You can use the aftermarket prices to negotiate the OEM warranties down (they'll come off 10-50% depending on how new your vehicle is and how well you negotiate).

gimpyrx

seelig...I did check my oil level with the stick.
Glycol can only be found with oil analysis.Try again CHAP! Be a dealer and order your own oil.
Why you such a jacka$$?

major.... I said long ago I sold Amsoil,what does it matter if I pay retail,or wholesale. Glycol leak,not an Amsoil issue.

brentwood....Their glycol ruined my oil. Would have been fine with out glycol problem. Check out Amsoil's history, my oil was just broke in.
Try AGAIN!

fxashun...Ditto!

hoofer...You forgot one step......Never buy a TOYOTA!