Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

majorthomecho

You dodged, but at least you did not insult.

Would you care to go back to my previous post and then answer my question?

BTW, if you feel you are not bound by the manufacturer's recommendations, would you mind telling us why?

im_brentwood

So,

You're saying that if Glycol was contaminating the oil that 3-5K oil changes versus 25K changes would have had no effect?

I find that hard to believe. See, say you change your oil every 5k vs 25K. That means that in 25K miles, if there IS a coolant leak that your oil will be subjected to five times as much coolant contamination. Perhaps enough to cause a problem.

Sort of like if your engine is overheating. If you drive an overheated engine for 5 miles, it might be OK. 25 Miles might do serious damage.

See where I am coming from?

Bill

joe3891

a few things reading these posts.

#1 Toyota has a sludge problem.

#2 Toyota owners are sensitive.

#3 Toyota won't honor its warranties.

#4 This topic is like the Audi badge,it just keeps going in circles.

mapoe3

Unfortunately I have to agree with you, even though I know that we did what we were suppose to do, by the warranty manual. We previously owned a Dodge Grand Caravan, kept the same type of log book, not all of the receipts, and when the transmission took a dive, we were never once asked to show receipts or a log book. It's just very unnerving that Toyota, who we purchased from for the first time, because of their "impeccable" reputation is treating it's customers this way. It appears that whether you have receipts and/or a log book isn't an issue with Toyota unless you end up in court with them. So, I guess my husband and I will chalk this one up to "lessons learned" and move on. Want to buy a Toyota??

seelig

you just pulled the words right out of my mouth. seems to me, that if coolant is leaking into a crankcase which is also occupied by oil, that you would see a rise in the oil level. it doessn't take an oil analysis to show that the oil level is higher than normal.
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since Gimpy won't answer my question, i'll tell what i learned from my dad, (whom managed a toyota parts department for 12 years). when oil manufacturers say "25,000 between changes", they are using optimum conditions. that meaning that the engine is in perfect condition. it is also a consideration of an engine that isn't used for a stop and go operation, in which the engine sees a lot of stop and restart situations. think of it another way-(told to us by an Amsoil rep), if you leave a light bulb on, it should give you a service life as indicated on the package. put the same bulb through a series of on/off cycles, and the life of the bulb is dramatically reduced.
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Gimpy- i understand that your responses are an indication of how frustrated you are, but i had no intention of poking a needle at you, besides, i'm on your side. i only meant that at some time during the extended service interval you use that there should have been an indication of a problem. no matter how good an oil is, it is still being used in a gas burning engine that subjects the oil to combustion chamber leakage during cold starts, that in my opinion break down any lubricant. seems that you are going to have to have Amsoil at your table to convince the court that there oil and prescribed intervals are not at fault for the engine being trashed, and that there is a legal reason for which the vehicle manf. to honor the claim and repair/replace your engine. i will talk to the guys i know and see if anything is documented to help you.
peace

gimpyrx

brentwood....My leak was not a big enough leak to raise the oil level. I checked it regularly. Did not notice sludge until I took of the oil cap. With a glycol leak, even if ya changed the oil the damage is being done. It just continues to leak until failure....frustrated, tired of it, over it, all the above.
Sorry if I act like an ILL gut.

major....My drain interval has NOTHING to do with the coolant leak. Without the leak ALL would be fine. My other lexus customers have zero problems. My SC-400 & LS-400 had no problems, still run sweet.
Sold them to friends, 120,000 miles on both. Same drain intervals.
Sorry to you too major.

majorthomecho

Do you not understand my question? You must not understand because you keep not answering it.

The question remains, do you think that someone can ignore the recommendations of the maker?

If yes, why?

gimpyrx

What's to answer? That is all they are.
Lubricant/extended interval has to be direct cause of failure to void warranty.
And it is NOT. The glycol is the issue, if it were not present, the oil would still be in fine condition. Just like ALL my other customers oil. SLUDGE has never been a problem. Toyota has the problem,not me,not Amsoil.

seelig

i asked around this a.m., and since toyota has documented failures due to glycol leaks, they are standing behind the problem. there are provisions to this though.
1. the specified maintenance as outlined in the owners manual must be followed.
2. owners may do their own maintenance provided they keep records and receipts.
3. they do not stand behind the use of extended oil change intervals, even though there are oil products that last beyond the recommended change interval.
one of the techs i talked to this morn. said the same thing i have said all along. if you change oil at(or before) the recommended interval, coolant leaks would be spotted, and the appropriate action would be taken to rectify the problem.
hope this helps you Gimpy....<:)

mocain

I too have a 1999 Sienna with engine sludge. It is in the shop right now waiting for its new $6,000 engine to arrive. 68,000 miles (obviously past the warranty). No blue smoke, only the dashboard light. Dealer immediately says "owner maintenance". Have found 12 oil change receipts. (averages to approx. 5,200 miles per change). Dealer is working with Toyota rep to help. Offered to pay half before I really got invlolved and started to do a little searching on the internet. I am filing y NHTSA complaint this week. Toyota has a problem. I have to wonder why they were so quick to try and help me out. Sounds like good customer service, right? I have talked with an attorney that handles consumer class actions - asbestos, breast implants, tobacco, etc. I am hoping that it doesn't go that far, but am confident that this firm is the best in the business. The problem is getting the word out to owners. I don't know why I searched the internet for Sienna problems, but I would have just been happy for them to pay half and keep going if I had not seen other peoples' experiences. Spread the word.

gimpyrx

seelig.....That's a crock.
Time will tell.

adc100

Anthrax. However the Anthrax actually is real. I can't imagine a litigation attorney who has got to be knee keep in money with breast implants to fiddle with sludge in Toyotas.

seelig

you know who believes it.......LOL

catgem

please e-mail me also....I am interested in joining a class action suit.

majorthomecho

I have never seen someone dodge around such a simple question like you dodge around the question I put to you.

majorthomecho

I know you are in finance at a Toyota dealership, but do you think you can get a hold of a Lexus RX300 maintenance manual and post what it says about service intervals and if the word required or similar wording is there?

Gimp has posted on this subject and I would just like independent verification or denial.

fxashun

There is no gurantee the glycol would have been found with regular oil changes. Many oil change facilities just pop the drain plug and walk away. They don't look at the condition of the oil.
In this case Gimp bought a Toyota. They don't care whether you change the oil per recommendation or not, they aren't honoring the warranty if ANYTHING goes wrong with the engine and there's sludge.

lokki

how about posting your VIN numbers for us? It would be interesting to see if there is any particular production sequence or period that is similar.... now that these Sienna problems have ended their vacation.

autoresearcher

Is Toyota offering some owners assist in the sludged engine repairs? It seems to me that there have been several lately which indicate partial assist...e.g. one half the repair costs.

It is typical for an automaker to make this move in order to "quiet the storm" if it begins to get out of hand. Oftentimes, this works. Owners are happy to get the offer especially when they are made to feel the guilt of creating the problem.

When things heat up for the automaker, and more evidence comes out to point to a widespread problem, the automaker will attempt to LIMIT its problem by finding that only a certain number of vehicles are involved...e.g. a certain VIN number sequence, or vehicles made in a certain plant.

The issue of sludge bears watching for this. "Ignorance is bliss" is the Toyota motto right now. As longs as the owner doesn't try to convince the dealership that there is a widespread problem, will he/she be assisted in a "Goodwill Gesture." As long as Toyota can continue in a healthy state of denial, will the owners be appeased? Don't know. Post your experiences.

autoresearcher@hotomail.com

gimpyrx

What is the deal?

andre1969

...maybe it wouldn't necessarily show up in the oil, unless there's enough of it, but if it's enough to mess up the engine, wouldn't you notice a drop in the coolant level?

It does make sense though, that if you have coolant leaking into the oil, the more frequently you change your oil, the longer your engine will last. Let's suppose, just for an example, you have a leak that puts one ounce of glycol per 1000 miles into the oil. Well, if you change your oil every 3,000 miles, you'll only have, at worst, 3 ounces of glycol in your oil. Extend that interval to 10,000 miles, you're going to have 10 ounces, and so on.

The question I would be asking though, is how did the glycol end up in the oil in the first place? Bad head gasket, warped head, crack in the block, or what? While letting the oil go for too long between changes exacerbated the problem, could an engine defect still be responsible for what started the problem in the first place?

suvshopper4

gimpyrx: How about a straight answer to the question I posted in #2035?
[In reply, in #2039 you referred me to Amsoil.com's website, and called it a "stupid" question.]

I don't think it is a stupid question, and I'd like to know your answer. So here is my question again:

If the owner's manual says "recommended" (not "required") oil change intervals, do you take that to mean no oil changes are required? Ever?

sgergen

Somebody mentions that there has not been a new sludge post in a while and "Poof" two new reports appear. Coincidence?

Scott

27,000+ miles on my 2000 Sienna, still going stong.

csandste

use Google and search on Toyota and sludge. Although I think Gimpy's problems are between him and Amsoil, it's obvious that there are Toyota sludging incidents all over the place that aren't being reported here. I don't think the argument is that every Sienna is going to sludge up, but the response of Toyota to such incidents. I for one would not feel comfortable in dealing with a company with this kind of response.

majorthomecho

Suv, that is basically the question I have been trying to get Gimp to answer and you can see the great job he has done in answering it. ; )

I guess we will just have to answer it for him and say that yes, he feels that manufacturer recommendations can be ignored.

majorthomecho

I did a search on Google for sludge and I came across what one Toyota dealership says about maintenance. Hmmm, if Lexus holds the same view, looks like Gimp voided his warranty big time.

http://www.foxtoyotaclinton.com/servdpt.html

majorthomecho

Sorry for the off topic post, but all this talk about Toyota and warranty got me to thinking about the well known "warranty" of another company.

How does QuikTrip know if you have used their gas or not?

majorthomecho

Click on the link below and see what Lexus says about maintenance currently. If this is different than what Lexus said about keeping your warranty in force in Gimp's maintenance guide, do you think they changed it to make it clear to people like Gimp?

http://www.lexus.com/showroom/warranty/maintenance.html

Hey Gimp, if you had a 2001 Lexus and read what it says above, would you still feel it was okay to exceed the manufacturer's recommendations?

smith53

if sludge is so rare, why would a service dept. even mention on their service dept. web page?

gimpyrx

MAJOR & SUVSHOPPER4....This is the last time!
Read slowly...... RECOMMENDATION! That is all that it is. They can not MAKE YOU use a specific oil,only if it is supplied free of charge to you in the terms of the warranty. Therefore the consumer is protected by LAW.
Failure must be caused by LUBRICANT to void vehicle warranty. Glycol will cause ANY lubricant to fail..... DAMN! DID YA GET IT YET?
The GLYCOL ruined my OIL! Thanks to the good oil it went as far as it did with glycol in it. As you can see, the others are sludging up even faster. With more frequent oil changes.HMMM???

csandste...The last time I checked Amsoil did'nt come with GLYCOL added. GET A CLUE!
Glycol added by FAULTY ENGINE.

majorthomecho

Your failure at reading comprehension astounds me.

We are not talking about your having to use a specific oil or filter. We ARE talking about having to follow a schedule of maintenance.

Now, care to explain to us how you felt justified in ignoring the maintenance schedule and still think Toyota aka Lexus should still be on the hook?

Yes, Toyota should be on the hook if you followed their maintenance schedule, but you didn't.

majorthomecho

I did not find mention of sludge by that service department to be unusual whether or not it is a common or uncommon problem.

If it is a problem with nasty consequences, it is nice that they warn people to watch out for it.

I just think they should have said on the same page what sludge looks like.

seelig

proper service intervals would have exposed this coolant leak a lot sooner than the extended plan that Gimpy took. there is no way that the manufacture of the vehicle is going to be made to pay for this neglect. no matter how great a product is (amsoil in this caase) it doesn't pay to go with extended (25K mi.) service intervals. those who have stuck with the game plan are in good shape, as the manf. will honor their warranty. no matter how many people have this problem, the manf. cannot be forced into covering repairs for their vehicles if the service
intervals were not adhered too.
for those who decided to trust their approach to maintenance, and go beyond the manf. recommendations, you are out of luck.....

mapoe3

I do not have the vin number here at home, it is on the paperwork in the van, which is at the shop getting "cleaned". If I get a chance tomorrow I will call and get the number. How can you tell by the VIN number where the car was manufactured? I know it can be done, just don't know how.

210delray

All Siennas sold in North America are made in the Georgetown, Kentucky plant.

Typically, the 11th position in the VIN is reserved for the assembly plant location.

210delray

This from page 322 of the 2001 Lexus 430 owners manual:

In bold type: "MAINTENANCE REQUIREMENTS." Then it says:

"Your Lexus vehicle has been designed to have fewer maintenance requirements with longer service intervals to save both your time and money. However, each regular maintenance [sic] as well as day-to-day care is more important than ever before to ensure smooth, trouble-free, safe, and economical driving.

"It is the owner's responsibility to make sure the specified maintenance, including general maintenance services, is performed. Note that both the new vehicle and emission control system warranties specify that proper maintenance and care must be performed. See 'Owner's Guide', 'Owner's Manual Supplement' or 'Warranty Booklet' for complete warranty information."

Looks like someone's out of luck. Time to move on, everybody.

div2

I should run Wesson oil in my next new car- what does the car manufacturer know? He can only recommend an oil!

210delray

Who else besides Mocain has Toyota offered to contribute partial payment once sludge has been found? Seems like everyone else in Edmunds with the problem had to pay 100% of the cost.

seelig

a beemer. at least the first tree years of maintenance will be taken care of. i know i'm paying for it, but it'll be a whole lot better than buying a new engine. even after that, i'll go to my regular routine on oil changes and such. will probably go with amsoil though, just won't go 15-25K on the change interval.

majorthomecho

Seelig, thanks but that is not what I am saying. I have no idea if more frequent oil changes would have caught the problem. I just know that the more frequent oil changes would not have given Toyota such a big club to wield over Gimp's head.

I just think someone should have to follow the dealer's requirements on the performing of routine maintenance although they don't have to buy a part or use an oil mandated by the manufacturer.

There is a difference between the two, but that seems to escape Gimp.

seelig

even though i still agree with you, and i understood what you were saying, i'm still concerned that by going to extended oil changes leaves the car owner at risk of a problem getting out of hand. i doubt that Gimpy doesn't understand the point you have been trying to make. it's more like he's in total denial. it does happen.

im_brentwood

Here's a direct quote:

following these recommendations will also keep your warranty in full coverage.

I would infer that as effectively saying that if you dont follow Lexus' reccomendations that you also may be denied warranty coverage.

And, if you had changed your marvel mystery..err.. Amsoil every 3-5K, I HIGHLY doubt that a coolant leak would have caused sludge. Was there a coolant leak? You claim there was. If it was a slight coolant leak, proper oil changes would have likely prevented sludging.

And I think that Synthetics are a waste anyways. I just drove a 1994 ES300 that I took in on trade this morning. Oil changed every 5K (TWO Stamped service books), 195,000 miles. Car runs absolutely beautifully. No sludge. However, it is a bit of a dog cosmetically (Looks nice but lots of paintwork and bad stereo and HVAC displays and bad sunroof motor so this little $3,500 piggy goes to the junk auction).

Irrespective...

I'd like to see an actual response.

Bill

hiwaysanity

"JACK [non-permissible content removed]!
MARVEL? WHAT AN IDIOT! "

This is not needed here. Do you react this way every time someone disagrees with you?

seelig

>this little $3,500 piggy goes to the junk auction<.......HaHa.....thanks that was cute.

armtdm

Although I go somewhat extended drains up to 12,000 miles if I had a coolant leak would I see it in the oil, I am not sure. My 92 Toyota with 138,000 has showed signs of coolant use in the winter, no smoke, dipstick looks fine and oil analysis shows no sign of coolant but it is using some. So, would more frequent oil changes on my part prevent sludging if I ever developed it, I doubt it! I check my oil once a week by the way.

I know that the failure to change the oil would not be an issue if coolant seeps into the engine and caused sludge, it would be a head gasket issue and non oil related. I concur that extended drains can be a problem if one does not check the oil every week or two but I must agree that coolant in the oil which caused sludge is not a failure of the oil it is an engine component failure as in gasket or cracked block. So even if the oil were changed every 3000 miles would sludge have been prevented given that the leak would also continue, we don't know! To deny a claim because oil schedule not followed is not proper to me. Especially when manufacturers play with the recommendations based upon who is paying, ie: BMW used to say 3000 when owner was paying now with first 3 years paid by BMW they say you can go 15,000 miles. Sure, and what changed may aI ask.

I think it is time to kill the debate on the glycol issue, those that swear by manufacturer recommendations are not going to alter their opinions and that is fine, whatever floats their boat, with others, I am very willing to go beyond recommendattions with a product I believe in knowing that the manufacturer must show the failure of any compnent was casued by the oil failing (not lubricating, which is different from not lubricating due to coolant in the oil. My new Buick with the oil indicator light recommends to change oil when the light comes on but never exceed 7,500 miles. Well, I am now at 8000 miles (recently changed the filter only) and will proceed to 12,000 before changing. Personally I don't care about the recommendations, I am williing to fight that battle later if it ever occurs but in my last 7 cars over the past 10 years (currently service 5 family owned vehicles) I have not had that issue.

So, to each his/her own and let's move on to sludge and Toyotas or sludge period which does seem to be going nowhere by the way!

gimpyrx

All they say is the same old s...
Nothing good to add,just a bunch of smack talk.
They don't even have a sludge problem, just opinions.
And ya know what they say about them.

div2

If ignorance is indeed bliss, I know of one Lexota owner who must be the happiest person on earth...

hiwaysanity

You should be aware that they say the same thing about your opinions that they do about mine. The difference is, they say it a bit kinder than you do.

suvshopper4

I guess gimpyrx does not know how to read my question (the question that I have posted twice). It's no wonder that he has a problem reading his owner's manual.

Instead of answering my question, he just hurls back off-track insults. Oh well.

He thought he was smart, and had found a better way to go; he was going to save big-time on oil changes. Looks like he out-smarted himself.

On the plus side, he has kept this thread lively. Call it entertainment value-added.

csandste

into Google brings even more matches. Using Toyota also brings up paint sludge recycling near manufacturing facilities.

Thought this one might be interesting since it details a potential class action lawsuit:

forums.vmag.com/mvsienna1199/messages/88.html

Posted by Ernest Rillman on June 20, 01 at 20:05:56:

WE need to get together and file a class action lawsuit for this sludge sienna problem. Same problem as described in most sludge cases. They blamed me at the dealership for lack of maintenance. My engine only
has 24,000 miles. My car mechanic has exactly the same problem, with the exactly the same mileage and superb maintenance with sinthetic oil.

Follow Ups:

Re: 2000 Sienna Sludge Don Michaels 04:49:44 8/12/01 (1)
Re: 2000 Sienna Sludge Pat Treadway 13:20:14 10/14/01 (0)