Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

oldharry

If a customer takes his car to have the oil changed early in the morning, and the shop leaves it in the parking lot until just before lunch then brings it in but doesn't start working on it till after lunch, could it be the crud that became sludge was not drained out with the oil? I always run a car long enough for the heater to put out hot air before shutting it off to drain the oil.

If the above senerio took place, Toyota *may* have a case for "improper maintenance". The question then would be, "Why do that shop's customers with other brands not have sludge?"

One employee at a Toyota engine plant could be the cause. Some engines can have inadequate oil circulation if a head gasket is install upside down. ( The passages for one end do not exactly line up with the passages on the other end, therefore there are specific gaskets for each cylinder bank rather than turning the same gasket over for the other side. Upside down gaskets result in oil staying too long in the valve covers, and the engine runs on low oil even though checking it after shut down shows normal). I don't work on engines anymore, so I don't know if Toyota is this way. If I paid for a repair from "sludge" I'd want to photograph the tear down, and keep the old gaskets signed on a surface by the shop manager.

Harry

pilot13

Yes, it's a good idea to drain oil when its hot, and no, I don't think draining it cold will create the type of sludge we are hearing about.
I truly believe that not changing oil often enough is the main culprit in this issue.
The reversed head gasket possibility would make some sense, except that I don't believe they are symmetrical. The cylinder head bolt holes won't line up if the gasket is fitted upside down.

hicaira

Back on 9/17 Gimpy was to have had his sludged RX300 torn down and he was anxious to view the results and share them with all of us. As we all know, gimp has glycol in his oil and suspects a malfunction or design problem caused the coolant to leak into the oil. Despite his promise to do so, gimpy has yet to tell us the results of the tear down and the source of the glycol.

Looks like he's getting some goodwill work from Lexus though, so now maybe he no longer cares.

HiC

fxashun

most people move on. I know when my problem was solved a few years back on a paint issue in our Civic I never mentioned it again.

majorthomecho

I found what I believe to be a post from you on another website's forum. In that post, you stated that it was your understanding once you started the arbitration process, you would have to sign a non disclosure agreement.

Just wondering if you signed such an agreement. If you did sign such an agreement, do you feel that your posts on this or any forum after the date of signing violate the spirit, if not the letter, of the agreement?

pilot13

I recall back in July/August when the debate about Catgem's situation was raging at full throttle in this Topic, she mentioned several times that such an agreement was part of the deal.
Correct me if wrong, but it seems the agreement was only necessary if the result of the arbitration was settled in her favor.

majorthomecho

Only taking effect if she won was not what Cat said in this other post, however, she might not have known the exact terms back then given she had not seen the actual non disclosure agreement yet.

majorthomecho

One name that I have seen crop up on a number of sites, where Sienna sludge is discussed, is the name CBlake. Who is she? And why is she posting in a lot of places? She does not seem to have a sludge problem and I am not even sure if she has a Toyota.

joe3891

I like the new BMW-7 oil change at 25,000 miles maximum,they should know its been said they build the best cars in the world.So much for not changing your oil causes sludge.

black01coupev6

Not unless your engine is a sludg-o-matic. Such as a few of the Toyota offerings.

pilot13

Hey Major, take some good advice--Don't ask!! You don't want to know about this person, believe me!

catgem

Started work this week;the first time in 16 years!! There would have only been a non-disclosure agreement if Toyota had settled. Not only did they not do so,but the arbitrator knew that they would not. He even came in with Toyota. The whole thing was a joke. When I posted about it elsewhere,I actually believed that I would get a fair hearing. Charlene Blake is a disgruntled T. customer who has slammed them everywhere,been banned everywhere. Or she is really Osama Bin Laden. Or a decoy Toyota employee. I contacted her,and received encrypted replies.

pronigier

I went to CarMax to see if they would buy my 97 Camry. They said body panels had been painted (true but no accidents) and they said begining of sludge problem. He said he saw gunk on the oil cap. They offered me 5800 and said they couldn't re-sell it because of the sludge so they would auction it somewhere. It does smoke in the morning but I didn't tell him that. I have all my oil change receipts, but I remember that when the dealer changed the oil the first three times, one of the times the oil still looked a little dark. I changed the oil at 4000 miles the first three times then went to 5000 miles at a trusted repair shop. I suppose I may have gone 8000 or 9000 with out an oil change if the dealer mised one but billed me anyway. Anyway how much is this to fix ? I would rather trade for a Nissan Sentra if this is 3000 dollar job. Thanks

armtdm

The oil filler area is simple to fix. One of the first things I look for in a used car is the filler area and it amazes me how many dealers do not clean what can be seen by the naked eye. Get some carb cleaner or whatever and clean the cap and as far into the filler area as you can see so that gunk/sludge does not show up to the naked eye. CarMAx would not have mentioned sludge if this had been cleaned beforehand.

Then either try to trade it or return to Car MAx in a few months to try again. If just the smoke issue a valve job will probably do it, seals etc. and not too expensive. You may also try a couple of frequent oil changes, I would suggest a cheap synthetic oil (WalMart Super Tech) run it a 1000 miles and change again with it or a brand name synthetic and see what happens.

seelig

do all the above, so that way the next person who owns it gets burned. i really like that. <:{

phaedrys

And that is why my next car will not be a used car.

armtdm

But that is why you take a car to your trusted mechanic before purchase.

Myself, great luck with used cars but none have been Toyotas.

cheller2

Here is a letter from an expert auto industry expert that performed the inspection for my attorney He sent the oil for analysis and this is his letter and the results. Obviously Lexus never wanted to do the work just told me to replace the engine not even replace with used because my engine was certainly not new. I am calling on all sludge problems relating to the RX 300 or the Sienna engine they used, their arrogance is just not right it's unacceptable and they should be held accountable.

Charles Heller

Beloww is the letter and analysis

November 3, 2001

On October 10, 2001 your 1999 Lexus RX300 (jtghf1ou1x0033343) was towed to Whalley Ave. Exxon for us to evaluate potential engine failure and the cause the failure if one did exist. When the vehicle arrived at our shop the forward valve cover had been removed and there was some sludge build up, particularly on the passenger side of the engine. When we started the engine there was noise coming from the crankshaft/connecting rod area, indicating imminent engine failure. The oil pan was then removed and inspected. We found some sludge build up and metal particles. An oil sample was taken and sent to a lab for analysis.

In viewing the camshaft that was exposed from the removal of the valve cover it did not appear to have suffered any damage due to lack of oil. The oil pick up screen was not blocked and the amount of sludge built up in the pan was not enough to impede the oil pick up screen from supplying the pump with oil. Upon further inspection we observed that the forward catalytic converter had partially disintegrated, indicating a contaminate in the combustion process, combustion overheating or both.

According to the service records you have supplied me with, your vehicle has been serviced within the guidelines recommended by the manufacturer, Lexus. The amount of sludge in the engine was not enough to cause engine failure, but was more than what you would expect to find in a vehicle with the number of miles and length of service your vehicle has. The lab results from the oil sample are attached. The oil itself was not defective but the results verified the imminent failure of the engine. The lab results show the oil had a very high metal content and more importantly the presence of glycol which will turn to sludge and varnish inside of an engine. The levels of glycol in the oil were off the scale according to the lab. The condition of the earlier mentioned catalytic converter would indicate that glycol had been mixing with both combustion process and the crankcase oil causing the sludge build up and varnish condition that is evident.

In summary the presence of high levels glycol in the oil is most likely the cause of the sludge/varnish condition in the engine and would most certainly contribute to the premature failure of the connecting rod bearings and crankshaft. Please do not hesitate to call with any questions. I have also retained pictures of the disassembly and have saved an additional oil sample if one is needed.

Sincerely
Kevin Carse Sr.

================================

Field Sample Analysis Report

The Valvoline Company

Product Quality and Technology Dept.
1-800-TEAM -VAL

Requester Information Customer Information Product Information
Requester Alice J. Lacey Customer Kevin Carse
Product: All Climate Motor

Manager: Ron Simile Address: Vies SAE 5w-30
Grade:
Phone 860-688-2947 City:
Condition Used:
Fax 860-688-2947 State Miles on
Oil:
Critical Phone 203-865-6174 Source:
Date:
Complaint: No Location:
Equipment Information Bulk ID:

Category: equipment/Me Make: LEXUS Quart ID:
Chanical
Model: RX300 Quantity:
Report#:01-0074 Year: 99 Additives:
Project#: 70318 Miles: Plant:

Status: COMPLETED Hours:

Detailed Request Description…
Engine Failure, Please analyze oil
Received sample on date 10/18/2001.

Completion 10/22/2001
Date:

Reported Alice Lacey
To:

Summary:
Wear metal content is higher than acceptable, crankcase oil is contaminated with coolant, (glycol found in oil) Failure is mechanical and not oil related.

Test Result Test Result

Oxidation &#150; IR 6 Fe ppm &#150; D5185 150

Ni ppm &#150; D5185 11 Al ppm &#150; D5185 32

Base Number 4.97 Sn ppm &#150; D5185 19
(total) &#150; D664

Kin Vis @ 40 degrees C 65.9 Si ppm &#150; D5185 10
(cSt) &#150; D2270

Kin Vis @ 100 degrees C 10.68 Glycol (Pil) - Positive >.10
(cSt) &#150; D2270 D2982

gimpyrx

How many more were victims and did not have an oil sample to prove it????? Hmmmmmm??????

Time will tell!

Thank you Lexus customer NO service.
Over priced Toyota JUNK!
The above is on my RX300 windows,and will stay until I return the leased junk.

armtdm

However, glycon in the oil is a sign that coolant is leaking into oil via head gasket or cracked block. The glycol caused the sludge in this case and an obvious component failure. However, the other sludge cases have not been due to Glycol they have been due to normal operations so the comparisons are sort of apples to oranges. Yours was a no brainer IMHO.

I have multiple oil analysis at home but need help disciphering yours. Please state the ppm for iron, nickel, aluminum, copper and the silicon ppm content. I cannot tell from your post what is what ie: D####????. Just want to compare to my Toyota analysis. Also, how many miles were on the oil at the time of analysis.

Thanks

fxashun

other failures are because Toyota doesn't even try to find the cause. It also mentions excessive heat. That's been mentioned before. This letter may be on to something.

rayfbaird

cholowickie, gimpy, and now cheller now have excessive glycol in the oil analysis.

fxashun

It just takes investigation (money) to find out the true reason.

majorthomecho

I am just wondering why some items (like mileage on oil) were left blank and why you didn't leave other items (like phone numbers) blank?

cholowicki

Actually, my oil analysis did not find Glycol in the oil. No water, no antifreeze. Just cooked oil.

jj35

CHeller2 - Thanks so much for posting your report. Wish I had known to get an oil analysis done. I have copied your letter for future reference.

ARMTDM - As I read it, Cheller2's analysis shows Iron (Fe) is 6 parts per million (ppm), Aluminum (Al) is 11 ppm, Tin (Sn) is 4.97 ppm and Silica (Si) is 65.9 ppm. He does not report copper (Cu). Also, ARMTDM, for the record, nothing was done to determine the cause of sludge in my engine, so it very well could have been from glycol contamination or any other number of potential causes of engine sludge. I was told that the only cause is neglecting the engine. There are obviously other causes that could have been investigated.

To everyone, as a word of caution, I have made what I now see as another mistake of occasionally posting on the www.thecomplaintstation.com and including my e-mail address there. Now I have been the subject of some very rude comments on that site, accused of making statements that I did not, and am suffering some consequences that I have been advised to not discuss. I believe some of the information was obtained from the profile on this site, which I included knowingly and willingly, but perhaps foolishly. I have been informed that what is being done is a form of stalking (called cyberstalking). I would like to recommend that everyone be very careful about what personal information that they post on the internet. Even if it may be illegal for people to use it in a harmful fashion, it may not prevent it from happening.

fxashun

for just that type of issue.

pilot13

I'm surprised that the quoted analysis had so little info on it. Those that I get(Every oil change on the plane) contain much more--more ferrous, non ferrous, and other components, plus usually a comment or two about comparison to norms, and trends.
It's also my understanding that some rude and accusatory remarks have been made at the Complaint Station about yours truly as well. I haven't checked this out because that site is, as far as I'm concerned, unfit for anyone other than adolescent retards. Anyone else seen that sort of thing?
I won't go there on principle, and wouldn't recommend it to anyone. It's too gross!

fxashun

did not contain, why aren't we talking more about what the letter DID have, such as a description of the internals of the engine, evidence of some type of long term combustion contaminant, even description of damage to the exhaust system.

I can undrestand grasping at straws trying to disprove everything that point to these engines having sludge but at some point you have wonder why this is only being shown on several different fronts to be happening to only these two engines.

I'll even take the Honda posts on the complaintstaion more seriously if there were entries anywhere else. But I haven't found any. Have you guys? Especially with the questionable screen names on the posts.

armtdm

If the wear metal numbers you interpreted are correct then something is truly amiss. they are extremely, extremely low, Iron at 6 ppm, aluminum at 11 ppm is absolutely peanuts, almost non existent. On at least 7 different cars that I have had analysis done on (reams of print outs) I have not had numbers this low, ever. The only number that is high is the silicon content at 65 ppm. Mine ranges from 20-33 or so after 7,500 miles on the oil. Further, on a new engine (say up to 20,000 miles) silicon is higher as silicon gaskets and seals are wearing in and this gets into the oil. For example, Amsoil has about 15ppm of silicon in the oil (I have this in writing from them) so even 65, (although high) is not way way up there. ( I have had 200 ppm of silicon on a first oil change engine oil, drops to teh 20 ppm level at around 20,000 miles) My lab cuts off at 33 ppm and flags that as excessive. Accordng to a post from the owner of this car directly to me the oil had 2000 miles on it so silicon is high for that mileage.

Appears the only thing I see is glycol as causing sludge and with the number you site, if correct, these wear metals are extremely low. Perhaps someone else can comment on their oil analysis numbers!

pilot13

Fxashun, nobody's "grabbing at straws", so just calm down! You always seem ready to start an argument when you see that something might not be going your way.
All I said was that the analysis didn't show much detail about components usually found in oil. And it didn't. So that's not a condemnation of you or any of your claims, and wasn't intended as such.
And you're right Armtdm, the numbers do seem low.
My guess is that the engine had either a cracked block, cylinder head, or head gasket.
It lost enough coolant, either into the oil or into the combustion chamber (most probable scenario), to cause overheating and catastrophic engine failure.
I don't think sludge played any part in this guy's problem. Whatever happened here was a fairly sudden event.

fxashun

Just stating that this is the first time we have a near complete report of a teardown and analysis of the engine and yet still we find issue. That's all. We don't know why the other engines filed and this may be the start of the answer why.

majorthomecho

I was not trying to get away from what might have caused the sludge. I was just curious as to why phone numbers were left in (and that is a dangerous thing to do on a public post) and why the number of miles on the oil was not left in.

mrrogers

If Toyota has a head gasket problem, could they replace the coolant with automatic transmission fluid? ATF may be more compatable with engine oil than glycol is. ATF does not appear to freeze in the winter, but I am unsure if it has the ability to cool the engine. ATF does not damage the seals in a transmission, so it should not damage the radiator and heater hoses. Any thoughts?

I rented a Chrysler Sebring this week, and the owner's manual recommends oil changes at 3,000 miles for severe service.

adc100

or radiator leak spraying hot finely dispersed oil/vapor into an engine compartment where there are lots of sparks. Can you say bomb/explosion. Terrorists would love this.

jj35

ARMTDM - I don't know much about oil analyses or contaminants in oil. Just interpreting what I think are the concentraions reported in cheller2's oil analysis. Hopefully, cheller2 will come back and clarify if this is being read appropriately.

Also, to Majorthomecho - you may be trying to read too much into the blank information. This may be a standard reporting form and that information was just never filled in.

Let's hope that cheller2 will come back. Think he gave his e-mail, so you both and others could e-mail him directly to get the answers you want rather than everyone trying to decipher what he said and didn't say.

mrrogers

about a hose leak causing a fire. I know when cars switched from carburators to fuel injection, the fuel lines had to be upgraded to prevent fires. Toyota would probably have to upgrade the heater and radiator hoses also.

tdollman

Amway works well for some people, maybe more about non-monetary things.

Amsoil (or Mobil 1) with Amsoil or similar excellent filter can be used for the 7500 mile (Toyota-standard) change cycle at a cost of $800/100K miles vs. about $300/100K for Havoline/Fram @ 7,500 miles. Considering the cost difference per oil-change vs trouble-free, engine longevity, I can't imagine going 7,500 mile on regular oil or even pseudo-syn oil and expecting longevity-instead double-up on the change-rate. For $25K to $30K cars, this seems like cheap insurance.

(I've gotten 220K to 295K on three consecutive Toyotas, and only the 295K-miler was worn-out, but not sludged).

spokane

Mmrogers,the idea of using ATF or something similar as the engine coolant is interesting. The non-corrosive nature of ATF would be a distinct asset in addition to the reasonably good compatibility with engine oil that you mention. However, because its heat transfer characteristics are so much poorer than a water/glycol solution, it would not be feasible to use it in an automotive cooling system.

jj35

Can hardly believe that there have only been a couple of posts since I last visited! Has the site been down or is all quiet on the sludge front?

For the mechanics/automotive techs out there, if (note a big IF) my engine sludge was caused by an undetected coolant leak, could that leak have been unintentionally repaired when my engine was cleaned and rebuilt (I mean, even if no one was aware of or suspected a leak, would the rebuilding process just by the nature seal up any leaks)? I posted each item of my repair bill quite some time back on this site and will do it again if that helps answer the question. I am wondering if glycol could still be getting into my oil, but not causing any significant sludge build up because I have been getting recent oil changes every 3,000 - 3,500 miles. Could I still get an oil analysis done that could detect glycol even at low concentrations? Also, the build up of sludge in my van appeared to have been quite sudden, which seems to be contrary to most opinions on how sludge develops. Would a coolant leak result in a more sudden build up?

catgem

but have started work,and have nothing new to add. JJ, I also would be very interested in hearing an answer to your quesstion!

suvshopper4

jj35: I'm not sure what you had done when your engine was cleaned and rebuilt.

A typical engine tear-down and rebuild would include replacing the gaskets; a faulty gasket (especially the head gasket) may have been the cause of coolant (glycol) leaking into the oil.

majorthomecho

Would not following the recommendations during the break in period lead to a situation where some problem develops later on with the engine that would lead to the oil sludging?

pilot13

Your contribution to this thread has been excellent, and you have my respect, for what it's worth, for asking good questions and consistently providing knowledgeable, objective input. I have the impression that you have prioritized integrity during your participation in this debate.
Others like you have done the same, since this issue began over 2 years ago.
While I'm not suggesting anyone stop participating, permit me to offer you some advice.
This subject has, literally, been dissected and put under the microscope every which way but loose. Every possibility, however vague and remote, has been hashed, rehashed, and regurgitated at least half a dozen times. No new and revolutionary findings have been revealed here since about the second time any of these possibilities was raised. (And then each point was debated 4 more times!) Nothing conclusive has turned up in the entirety of this weighty discussion, period.
What has become clear, at least to me, is that those who believe that Toyota "dropped the ball" aren't ever going to change their minds, and will continue pressing for some form of compensation, revenge, or retribution.
I make no secret of the fact that I think this stance may be illogical and unrealistic, but all the objectivity or experience in the world isn't going to change the mind of someone who believes in this position. And perhaps if I were in their shoes I might feel the same, who knows. Call it cockeyed optimism, wishful thinking, or what have you, but it isn't going to change, ever.
Your question about break-in periods is a good one, but it has already been thrashed pretty well in earlier debates. Truth be known, this period in an engine's lifespan is the most critical in determining how long it will last, but these people don't care.
Regardless of what I think,, bringing it forward once more isn't going to add any more value to what already has been said about it. The "Yeas" will continue to agree, and the "nays" won't.
So my point is, simply, save your breath, and avoid some frustration. Check back over the older posts, or the archived ones--you'll see what I mean about history repeating itself.
This sludge issue is, IMHO, like an expensive car without an engine--all dressed up and nowhere to go. Don't borrow trouble.

adc100

...it(sludge) is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Macbeth. Act v. Sc. 5.

spokane

The answer to your first question is yes. If the original lube system failure was caused by ethylene glycol in the motor oil, it is likely that the rebuild did eliminate the cause of the coolant leakage into the crankcase. On your second question, I expect an oil analysis would identify rather low concentrations of EG in the oil but would like to hear comments from some of the people who routinely work with the analytical labs.

majorthomecho

Well, Pilot that discussion about break in period must have been one I missed. I did not read all the posts in this thread before posting the first time. I read like the first two or three hundred and the last two or three hundred.

I was not trying to rehash old ground or start anything. I was simply asking because I did not know and wanted to know.

seelig

we are all members here, and if questions that have been asked in the past are asked in the future, then those who want to participate in this overworked topic are welcome to do so the way i see it.
if pilot really believes that what he said is true, then probably half of the topics on edmunds should be closed.
Major- since you have been asking questions, i see some pretty constructive issues being addressed.........please continue.

jj35

I, also, do not recall any discussion on this site about break-in periods, but also can't claim to have read and remembered every thing on this site, either. It is interesting, though, that it is brought up here. Recently, on the site we all love to hate, The Complaint Station, I was accused of abusing my van because my first oil change was not until 7,000 miles. The break in period was mentioned. I will read my manual AGAIN tonight but don't recall any mention of a break in period being required. If it is so critical, I hope that Toyota does indeed specify a shorter oil change interval for the first so many miles. When finalizing the deal on my van, I did specifically asked our dealer about break in. My question was more in terms of driving speeds because we needed to leave immediately on a several hundred mile interstate highway trip. I recalled being told in the past about not driving new cars at a constant speed during a "break in" period. The dealer told me that the break in was a thing of the past and not to worry about breaking in the car. I know if the manual says otherwise, that this is no excuse. If my problem was indeed due to not properly breaking in the car, wouldn't the sludge have shown up in the first 7,000 miles rather than at 17,000 and after two additional oil changes?

On another subject, I found something interesting on the internet last night. Don't remember this ever being discussed as a possible sludge cause, so thought I would bring it up here for more discussion. The quote below if from the website: http://www.hartenergynetwork.com/motorfuels/federal/doc/reg/epa/rules/finrules/fuels/dca-s&a.htm.

That is a long address, so I hope the link works properly. If not, you may need to cut and paste the address. It is about detergent additives in fuel. It is difficult to read if you are not familiar with all the acronyms and such (which I am not). The following is a finding by Toyota. It is near the end of the very long document.

"Toyota stated that it was concerned about the effects on materials and components of the fuel system, the oxygen sensor, and the catalyst which might result from the use of a mixture of deposit control additives. Toyota stated that high detergent concentrations can result in high fuel peroxide levels and deterioration of rubber materials, which can damage fuel system parts and potentially impact emissions and driveability.

Toyota also related that detergent additives can cause deterioration of engine oil, and in some cases have produced black sludge in engine oil which has caused engines to seize. It stated that even if a CCD performance standard is developed, an unwashed gum standard should be retained due to the consideration of detergent additive effects on materials in the fuel system."

Any comment?

majorthomecho

My question was not asking if the oil should be changed earlier, but rather if not following the break in period guidelines would cause problems that could lead to sludge.

And JJ, my manual, at least, does have break in period guidelines and I bet your manual does too. I think the dealer was just telling you what he thought you wanted to hear so he would have a sale. SHAME ON HIM!

FWIW, it is my understanding that the more expensive marquee brands do specify changing the oil AND the transmission fluid after one thousand miles. The author of the article where I read this said if it is good enough for them, it should be good enough for anyone.

Toyota does not require the first oil change until 5k or 7.5k depending on the usage.