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Comments
If the above senerio took place, Toyota *may* have a case for "improper maintenance". The question then would be, "Why do that shop's customers with other brands not have sludge?"
One employee at a Toyota engine plant could be the cause. Some engines can have inadequate oil circulation if a head gasket is install upside down. ( The passages for one end do not exactly line up with the passages on the other end, therefore there are specific gaskets for each cylinder bank rather than turning the same gasket over for the other side. Upside down gaskets result in oil staying too long in the valve covers, and the engine runs on low oil even though checking it after shut down shows normal). I don't work on engines anymore, so I don't know if Toyota is this way. If I paid for a repair from "sludge" I'd want to photograph the tear down, and keep the old gaskets signed on a surface by the shop manager.
Harry
I truly believe that not changing oil often enough is the main culprit in this issue.
The reversed head gasket possibility would make some sense, except that I don't believe they are symmetrical. The cylinder head bolt holes won't line up if the gasket is fitted upside down.
Looks like he's getting some goodwill work from Lexus though, so now maybe he no longer cares.
HiC
Just wondering if you signed such an agreement. If you did sign such an agreement, do you feel that your posts on this or any forum after the date of signing violate the spirit, if not the letter, of the agreement?
Correct me if wrong, but it seems the agreement was only necessary if the result of the arbitration was settled in her favor.
Then either try to trade it or return to Car MAx in a few months to try again. If just the smoke issue a valve job will probably do it, seals etc. and not too expensive. You may also try a couple of frequent oil changes, I would suggest a cheap synthetic oil (WalMart Super Tech) run it a 1000 miles and change again with it or a brand name synthetic and see what happens.
Myself, great luck with used cars but none have been Toyotas.
Charles Heller
Beloww is the letter and analysis
November 3, 2001
On October 10, 2001 your 1999 Lexus RX300 (jtghf1ou1x0033343) was towed to Whalley Ave. Exxon for us to evaluate potential engine failure and the cause the failure if one did exist. When the vehicle arrived at our shop the forward valve cover had been removed and there was some sludge build up, particularly on the passenger side of the engine. When we started the engine there was noise coming from the crankshaft/connecting rod area, indicating imminent engine failure. The oil pan was then removed and inspected. We found some sludge build up and metal particles. An oil sample was taken and sent to a lab for analysis.
In viewing the camshaft that was exposed from the removal of the valve cover it did not appear to have suffered any damage due to lack of oil. The oil pick up screen was not blocked and the amount of sludge built up in the pan was not enough to impede the oil pick up screen from supplying the pump with oil. Upon further inspection we observed that the forward catalytic converter had partially disintegrated, indicating a contaminate in the combustion process, combustion overheating or both.
According to the service records you have supplied me with, your vehicle has been serviced within the guidelines recommended by the manufacturer, Lexus. The amount of sludge in the engine was not enough to cause engine failure, but was more than what you would expect to find in a vehicle with the number of miles and length of service your vehicle has. The lab results from the oil sample are attached. The oil itself was not defective but the results verified the imminent failure of the engine. The lab results show the oil had a very high metal content and more importantly the presence of glycol which will turn to sludge and varnish inside of an engine. The levels of glycol in the oil were off the scale according to the lab. The condition of the earlier mentioned catalytic converter would indicate that glycol had been mixing with both combustion process and the crankcase oil causing the sludge build up and varnish condition that is evident.
In summary the presence of high levels glycol in the oil is most likely the cause of the sludge/varnish condition in the engine and would most certainly contribute to the premature failure of the connecting rod bearings and crankshaft. Please do not hesitate to call with any questions. I have also retained pictures of the disassembly and have saved an additional oil sample if one is needed.
Sincerely
Kevin Carse Sr.
================================
Field Sample Analysis Report
The Valvoline Company
Product Quality and Technology Dept.
1-800-TEAM -VAL
Requester Information Customer Information Product Information
Requester Alice J. Lacey Customer Kevin Carse
Product: All Climate Motor
Manager: Ron Simile Address: Vies SAE 5w-30
Grade:
Phone 860-688-2947 City:
Condition Used:
Fax 860-688-2947 State Miles on
Oil:
Critical Phone 203-865-6174 Source:
Date:
Complaint: No Location:
Equipment Information Bulk ID:
Category: equipment/Me Make: LEXUS Quart ID:
Chanical
Model: RX300 Quantity:
Report#:01-0074 Year: 99 Additives:
Project#: 70318 Miles: Plant:
Status: COMPLETED Hours:
Detailed Request Description
Engine Failure, Please analyze oil
Received sample on date 10/18/2001.
Completion 10/22/2001
Date:
Reported Alice Lacey
To:
Summary:
Wear metal content is higher than acceptable, crankcase oil is contaminated with coolant, (glycol found in oil) Failure is mechanical and not oil related.
Test Result Test Result
Oxidation – IR 6 Fe ppm – D5185 150
Ni ppm – D5185 11 Al ppm – D5185 32
Base Number 4.97 Sn ppm – D5185 19
(total) – D664
Kin Vis @ 40 degrees C 65.9 Si ppm – D5185 10
(cSt) – D2270
Kin Vis @ 100 degrees C 10.68 Glycol (Pil) - Positive >.10
(cSt) – D2270 D2982
Time will tell!
Thank you Lexus customer NO service.
Over priced Toyota JUNK!
The above is on my RX300 windows,and will stay until I return the leased junk.
I have multiple oil analysis at home but need help disciphering yours. Please state the ppm for iron, nickel, aluminum, copper and the silicon ppm content. I cannot tell from your post what is what ie: D####????. Just want to compare to my Toyota analysis. Also, how many miles were on the oil at the time of analysis.
Thanks
ARMTDM - As I read it, Cheller2's analysis shows Iron (Fe) is 6 parts per million (ppm), Aluminum (Al) is 11 ppm, Tin (Sn) is 4.97 ppm and Silica (Si) is 65.9 ppm. He does not report copper (Cu). Also, ARMTDM, for the record, nothing was done to determine the cause of sludge in my engine, so it very well could have been from glycol contamination or any other number of potential causes of engine sludge. I was told that the only cause is neglecting the engine. There are obviously other causes that could have been investigated.
To everyone, as a word of caution, I have made what I now see as another mistake of occasionally posting on the www.thecomplaintstation.com and including my e-mail address there. Now I have been the subject of some very rude comments on that site, accused of making statements that I did not, and am suffering some consequences that I have been advised to not discuss. I believe some of the information was obtained from the profile on this site, which I included knowingly and willingly, but perhaps foolishly. I have been informed that what is being done is a form of stalking (called cyberstalking). I would like to recommend that everyone be very careful about what personal information that they post on the internet. Even if it may be illegal for people to use it in a harmful fashion, it may not prevent it from happening.
It's also my understanding that some rude and accusatory remarks have been made at the Complaint Station about yours truly as well. I haven't checked this out because that site is, as far as I'm concerned, unfit for anyone other than adolescent retards. Anyone else seen that sort of thing?
I won't go there on principle, and wouldn't recommend it to anyone. It's too gross!
I can undrestand grasping at straws trying to disprove everything that point to these engines having sludge but at some point you have wonder why this is only being shown on several different fronts to be happening to only these two engines.
I'll even take the Honda posts on the complaintstaion more seriously if there were entries anywhere else. But I haven't found any. Have you guys? Especially with the questionable screen names on the posts.
Appears the only thing I see is glycol as causing sludge and with the number you site, if correct, these wear metals are extremely low. Perhaps someone else can comment on their oil analysis numbers!
All I said was that the analysis didn't show much detail about components usually found in oil. And it didn't. So that's not a condemnation of you or any of your claims, and wasn't intended as such.
And you're right Armtdm, the numbers do seem low.
My guess is that the engine had either a cracked block, cylinder head, or head gasket.
It lost enough coolant, either into the oil or into the combustion chamber (most probable scenario), to cause overheating and catastrophic engine failure.
I don't think sludge played any part in this guy's problem. Whatever happened here was a fairly sudden event.
I rented a Chrysler Sebring this week, and the owner's manual recommends oil changes at 3,000 miles for severe service.
Also, to Majorthomecho - you may be trying to read too much into the blank information. This may be a standard reporting form and that information was just never filled in.
Let's hope that cheller2 will come back. Think he gave his e-mail, so you both and others could e-mail him directly to get the answers you want rather than everyone trying to decipher what he said and didn't say.
Amsoil (or Mobil 1) with Amsoil or similar excellent filter can be used for the 7500 mile (Toyota-standard) change cycle at a cost of $800/100K miles vs. about $300/100K for Havoline/Fram @ 7,500 miles. Considering the cost difference per oil-change vs trouble-free, engine longevity, I can't imagine going 7,500 mile on regular oil or even pseudo-syn oil and expecting longevity-instead double-up on the change-rate. For $25K to $30K cars, this seems like cheap insurance.
(I've gotten 220K to 295K on three consecutive Toyotas, and only the 295K-miler was worn-out, but not sludged).
For the mechanics/automotive techs out there, if (note a big IF) my engine sludge was caused by an undetected coolant leak, could that leak have been unintentionally repaired when my engine was cleaned and rebuilt (I mean, even if no one was aware of or suspected a leak, would the rebuilding process just by the nature seal up any leaks)? I posted each item of my repair bill quite some time back on this site and will do it again if that helps answer the question. I am wondering if glycol could still be getting into my oil, but not causing any significant sludge build up because I have been getting recent oil changes every 3,000 - 3,500 miles. Could I still get an oil analysis done that could detect glycol even at low concentrations? Also, the build up of sludge in my van appeared to have been quite sudden, which seems to be contrary to most opinions on how sludge develops. Would a coolant leak result in a more sudden build up?
A typical engine tear-down and rebuild would include replacing the gaskets; a faulty gasket (especially the head gasket) may have been the cause of coolant (glycol) leaking into the oil.
Others like you have done the same, since this issue began over 2 years ago.
While I'm not suggesting anyone stop participating, permit me to offer you some advice.
This subject has, literally, been dissected and put under the microscope every which way but loose. Every possibility, however vague and remote, has been hashed, rehashed, and regurgitated at least half a dozen times. No new and revolutionary findings have been revealed here since about the second time any of these possibilities was raised. (And then each point was debated 4 more times!) Nothing conclusive has turned up in the entirety of this weighty discussion, period.
What has become clear, at least to me, is that those who believe that Toyota "dropped the ball" aren't ever going to change their minds, and will continue pressing for some form of compensation, revenge, or retribution.
I make no secret of the fact that I think this stance may be illogical and unrealistic, but all the objectivity or experience in the world isn't going to change the mind of someone who believes in this position. And perhaps if I were in their shoes I might feel the same, who knows. Call it cockeyed optimism, wishful thinking, or what have you, but it isn't going to change, ever.
Your question about break-in periods is a good one, but it has already been thrashed pretty well in earlier debates. Truth be known, this period in an engine's lifespan is the most critical in determining how long it will last, but these people don't care.
Regardless of what I think,, bringing it forward once more isn't going to add any more value to what already has been said about it. The "Yeas" will continue to agree, and the "nays" won't.
So my point is, simply, save your breath, and avoid some frustration. Check back over the older posts, or the archived ones--you'll see what I mean about history repeating itself.
This sludge issue is, IMHO, like an expensive car without an engine--all dressed up and nowhere to go. Don't borrow trouble.
Macbeth. Act v. Sc. 5.
I was not trying to rehash old ground or start anything. I was simply asking because I did not know and wanted to know.
if pilot really believes that what he said is true, then probably half of the topics on edmunds should be closed.
Major- since you have been asking questions, i see some pretty constructive issues being addressed.........please continue.
On another subject, I found something interesting on the internet last night. Don't remember this ever being discussed as a possible sludge cause, so thought I would bring it up here for more discussion. The quote below if from the website: http://www.hartenergynetwork.com/motorfuels/federal/doc/reg/epa/rules/finrules/fuels/dca-s&a.htm.
That is a long address, so I hope the link works properly. If not, you may need to cut and paste the address. It is about detergent additives in fuel. It is difficult to read if you are not familiar with all the acronyms and such (which I am not). The following is a finding by Toyota. It is near the end of the very long document.
"Toyota stated that it was concerned about the effects on materials and components of the fuel system, the oxygen sensor, and the catalyst which might result from the use of a mixture of deposit control additives. Toyota stated that high detergent concentrations can result in high fuel peroxide levels and deterioration of rubber materials, which can damage fuel system parts and potentially impact emissions and driveability.
Toyota also related that detergent additives can cause deterioration of engine oil, and in some cases have produced black sludge in engine oil which has caused engines to seize. It stated that even if a CCD performance standard is developed, an unwashed gum standard should be retained due to the consideration of detergent additive effects on materials in the fuel system."
Any comment?
And JJ, my manual, at least, does have break in period guidelines and I bet your manual does too. I think the dealer was just telling you what he thought you wanted to hear so he would have a sale. SHAME ON HIM!
FWIW, it is my understanding that the more expensive marquee brands do specify changing the oil AND the transmission fluid after one thousand miles. The author of the article where I read this said if it is good enough for them, it should be good enough for anyone.
Toyota does not require the first oil change until 5k or 7.5k depending on the usage.