Toyota Engine Sludge Problem

210delray

This is from my 1997 Toyota Camry owners' manual (page 129):

Break-in period
"Drive gently and avoid high speeds."

"Your vehicle does not need an elaborate break-in. But following a few simple tips for the first 1600 km (1000 miles) can add to the future economy and long life of your vehicle.

Do not drive over 88 km/h (55 mph).
Run the engine at moderate speed between 2000 and 4000 rpm.
Avoid full-throttle starts.
Try to avoid hard stops during the first 300 km (200 miles).
Do not drive slowly with the manual transmission in a high gear.
Do not drive for a long time at any single speed, either fast or slow.
Do not tow a trailer during the first 800 km (500 miles)."

JJ, it appears your salesman glossed over a few of these points (surprise, surprise).

As majorthom said, the first oil change is at 5000 miles or 4 months, whichever comes first (severe service). For normal service, the interval is 7500 miles or 6 months.

Are you the one who had oil changes done at 7k, 10k, and 16k miles?

fxashun

on the 1999 Accord 4 cylinder do not change the oil before recommended first oil change. They can differ I guess.

suvshopper4

Not changing the oil too soon the first time actually helps to break-in the engine, according to what I've read in the past. The tiny metal filings help to loosen up the close tolerances. You don't want a new engine to remain too tight, and that may be especially true of a small engine.

adc100

Metal filing...parts are cleaned, before assembly. would be trapped in filter. This is ancient history. Tolerances are too good/close. Manufacturer would not let metal filings willy nilly lap polish engine parts. This would of course work on bearings also and you wouldn't want that.

suvshopper4

adc100: Then what's your theory on why Honda recommends not doing the first oil change too soon (per the previous poster)?

You don't think any metal wears off the new parts in the first few thousand miles of operation?

cheller2

I may not be able to answer all the questions however the reason for the analysis posting was to share it with all of you and let the experts define what the analysis means. I for one do not understand it other than what the common layman would know. There was no reason the mileage was left off ( 38,000 ) for everyone's edification. Again please understand I was asked to post his just to let others know that perhaps even if you have done everything by the book there might be other circumstances which can cause a problem.

Certainly to the common layman who does not no any better. I am not going to let anyone question my integrity when I know that I did everything which was required of me and have the documentation and the personnel to support their work.

I am not technical enough to know if Lexus is guilty however they are guilty in the court of law called customer service. They serviced my car up to 22,000 miles. The last time I used them i found their bill excessive and their service attitude arrogant. This was indicative of perhaps a not very well run service center. Lexus must take responsibility of which as a owner of my own firm would (The buck stops here) Their corporate headquarters did not do that. Moreover they didn't even "drop the pan" and made their assesment. I have watched this thread with interest to the positives and negatives and have certainly learned a lot. Actually probably more than I needed to. I did not put in or leave anything in the report out on purpose, there is no hidden agenda. To end and I will report the final ending to this story as it materializes.

Charles Heller

adc100

I honestly don't really know. Perhaps there is a break-in oil or somekind of matderial which helps rings seat better. Sure there is metal wear-there always is. Probably there is more during startup. I just don't believe that it aids in breaking in/seating rings. Mobil 1 says you can use syn right out of the chute for a new engine. And some engines come with Mobil in. Hey-I never said I had all of the answers-I may not have any.

black01coupev6

BMW, Mercedes, etc come right out of the plant with synthetic oil.

jj35

Yes, I should have known better than to believe the salesman. Fortunately for me, I suppose, is that we did not immediately buy the van (despite extreme pressure to do so) and took our previous vehicle on our long trip. I can't really recall, but I would hazard a guess that I exceeded 55 mph in the first 1000 miles. I would have been killed on the interstate if I had not. But probably the rest of the break in criteria were met. I did check the break in section of my manual last night and it says the exact same thing in the 2000 Sienna manual about break in periods as 210Delray reports above. Nothing additional about changing the oil sooner on the first oil change.

No comments on my post about detergents in fuel possibly causing sludge in engines? I sent a letter today to an EPA representative whose name was listed as a contact on some other EPA fuel additives legislation to see if he could give me more info.

cholowicki

I would be very interested in what the EPA contact has to say. I am taking my sludged engine Camry case to court (unless they decide to settle before that), so any info on possible causes may be helpful if we really do need to go to court. The parties in my case were served via return receipt certified mail, so they have 28 days to respond. We are still in that waiting period right now. I did receive a letter from the dealership dated the same date they were served advising me that they would be charging my $10/day storage as of November 5th. The lawyer advised me not to respond to them, as it would be the car's owner that is responsible for those charges, and since I have revoked my acceptance of the vehicle, Toyota financial is not the "owner."

Apparently the "fun" is just beginning...

catgem

n/t

autoresearcher

I found the post below on the Complaint Station for Toyota. Since there is a lot of discussion abou the possible causes of the sludge in certain Toyota models, could this theory explain them?

Wouldn't this be consistent with the glycol in the oil?

I'm interested in the overheating part, though. Wouldn't there have been some signs beforehand, such as the increasing smoke on start up? What type of sludge would result in this situation?

Please shed some technical light on this theory if you would.

1998 sienna
Posted by 10 Nov 2001 11:16.17

From:
EmailID: jandklittle@aol.com
Complaint Type: PRODUCTS
Comments: We bought our sienna brand new from Freeman Toyota in Santa Rosa. We have gone through 6 sets of tires, the car never stays balanced correctly. Just over 60 thousand miles and under 3 years our car overheated for no apperant reason. Taking it to Toyota thinking it would just need a new thermostat. We get a call saying it needed a whole new engine. $6700 we paid for what they admit was a manufacture fault. The number 6 cylinder was a recessed a 32hundreths of an inch causing the head casket to fail. This caused the car to over heat and thus causing a whole new engine. We were led to believe that the manufacturer was going to reimburse us and the dealership would stand behind its productBecause we had not had our tune ups done through Toyota they would not stand behind their car. But once again they admit that it was sold to us with a fault.

pilot13

Details are quite confusing, but it appears the van was out of warranty anyway, according to mileage provided.
The tire situation seems incredulous--a new set of tires every 10K miles? The dealer should get an award! If not the tire supplier!
Without further information, it's difficult to suggest anything other than the engine overheated and self destructed. Maybe a one of a kind situation could be the cause.
It would be interesting to know how far the van was driven with an overheated engine before it finally gave up the ghost.
By the way, what's this got to do with sludge?

gimpyrx

NO WAY can a Toyota have problems!
yeah right.
Another GLYCOL victim on the list last week.

davemm

I am trying to determine what model years are affected by this sludge issue. We just bought a 2002 Sienna.

gimpyrx

Only shows up in models with the name TOYOTA/LEXUS on it.

210delray

There was an EPA recall on the VW Rabbit (I had an affected '79) for excessive hydrocarbon emissions due to bad valve stem seals. The problem was emissions, not engines seizing on the road. You're right though, that oil consumption increased as a result of this defect, but not so rapidly that Rabbits were dying en masse on the roads.

stealth1969

I know with my case and every other case I have heard of, Toyota has said the only cause of sludge is owner neglect. That article has Toyota saying they have seen fuel additives causing sludge. Here is the quote "Toyota also related that detergent additives can cause deterioration of engine oil, and in some cases have produced black sludge in engine oil which has caused engines to seize." Granted, I don't know if those specific fuel additives are used in fuels we can buy or not. But it does show Toyota knows and has demonstrated sludge can be caused by other than owner neglect.

mrrogers

If the Toyota/Lexus 3.0 V-6 has a tendency to leak glycol into the oil, would it make sense to add an occasional can of radiator stop leak to the cooling system as preventative maintenance? In my younger days, I doctored up many a clunker with these additives, but I never put it in an engine until I suspected I had a leak. Any opinions?

suvshopper4

mrrogers: I would not put leak-stop into an engine that did not immediately need it. It might do more harm than good, possibly blocking small passages. Kinda like arteriosclerosis.

Hopefully my days of carrying Bars Leaks at all times are behind me for good.

armtdm

when the coolant is changed. I have not although I have considered it. My holes on the neck of the radiator for the overflow tank (hole that opens to the hose for the tankl) are very small and I am fearful of these pluging up. I have had to blow them out as one change of coolant did get some stop leak added and it took forever to get out, tank kept accumulating this gunk in it and it looked terrible. So unless a leak I would not and from what I gather this may be a temporary fix anyway.

Like to know if Toyota meant fuel additives, oil additives or coolant additives on the sludge issue

brown33

I am in the market for a used Camry (98-01). I have been following the sludge posts and am wondering if the sludge problems are limited to the V-6, or have the 4 cylinders been affected as well. Also, what's the best way to check for sludge other than looking at the oil cap.

Thanks!

fxashun

cholowicki

My ill-fated Camry was a 4 cylinder. I have heard (too late to do me any good) that the '97 Camry was the best one to own.

mikesimmons

After reading the messages posted in this forum, I did some checking of my own and here is what I found.

I checked for sludge by removing the oil filler cap and looking into the upper engine through the opening.

I found sludge in a '93 I-4 Camry with 93,000 mikes on it. I have known this car since it was new and it has had oil changes every 3 to 4 thousand miles.

I looked at two Camrys on the used car lot but was unable to see into the top of the engine because there is a baffle in the way. The oil caps on these two cars were clean but they also looked new.

On the same lot was a 2000 Avalon. A dried, black, flakey deposit was seen at the opening with what looked like sludge at the limit of my vision farther back. I have no idea concerning the maintenance on these three cars.

I also checked my own car, a 1983 Nissan 300ZX with 199,000 miles on it. It was clean with only an even coat of varnish showing. It has had its oil changed between 3 and 5 thousand miles.

I need to look at more Toyotas but, it may be that Toyota engines may be more likely to form sludge than other engines and, that the sludge can develop quickly if conditions are not tightly controlled.

I am at a loss to explain how Toyota has a reputation for durabililty though, if the sludge problem is a bad as it is reported here and in other places.

I like the Camry but I will need to resolve the sludge issue before considering one for my next car.

lleroi

After sorting through a few posts.this is what I see.IF you have your service done by the dealer,you are probably okay for the term of your warranty.IF the posts are true in her,.2 things happen.First if you have the service done elsewhere or do not follow guidelines SLUDGE could happen.Secondly,once out of warranty Sludge could happen.This begs the question-is the a planned failure or a defect?
I am not a fan of Japanese cars and believe they are VERY over-rated.However.it is very hard for me to believe Toyota would not have solved this problem-IF it is a real problem.The answer.as I see it,is that although most of the trouble is caused by owner neglect or mistake,Toyota(like most Japanese manufacturers)has excaturbated the problem with a tone of arrogant denial-rather then reasonably explaining how this happens to the customer.

fxashun

You've done what I asked people to do back in the first Camry topic. In Camry "original" someone asked if anyone had heard of sludge in Camrys. I asked people togo look in a few higher mileage 4 cylinder Camrys (the only models I had tried) and you'd see that they had a tendency to have more deposits on their oil cap. Well here we are now.

cliffy1

How many times does it need said that looking at the inside of an oil cap is NOT how to check for sludge. Pulling the valve cover is the only way. The cap traps moisture and created sludge only in the cap.

pilot13

When the wise thing to do is to just leave well enough alone.
Without a doubt, 99.99 percent of the automotive universe recognizes that looking inside an oil filler cap is not an indicator of a sludge condition.
About.01 percent won't accept that, and neither you nor anyone else will ever convince them otherwise.
Cheers, The Pilot.

fxashun

knew this then why are there so many places online that recommend looking at the oil cap?

 http://members.tripod.com/~MyanmarStar/index-2.html

 

 http://www.usedcarbuyingtips.com/used-cars/engine.html

 http://www.fish4cars.co.uk/features/peugeot306.ht

ml

 http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/advice_buyused_beware.html

WOW maybe it's just 98.0 percent. Could you have any less credibility?

mrdetailer

Remember that this is not a common occurence for even most Toyota owners. However these things seem to help prevent it's occurence.

1. Make sure that the vehicle is broken in properly according to the owners manual.

2. Avoid repeated short trips especially in hot weather. I make sure that once a month I take at least a 50 mile trip for a vehicle that I use as a get to work commuter only 10 miles each way. The longer trip helps evaporate condensation, and minimize corrosive acids.

3. Never go longer than the TIME in MONTHS or mileage recommendations for SEVERE schedule. If using a conventional I would actually recommend around every 3,000 miles if most mileage is city miles. I would change synthetic at every 5,000.

4. Do all oil changes only at the dealer during the warranty period and KEEP EVERY receipt. At least 2 have had engines fixed because they did every one of their oil changes at the dealer and many more have been denied because they did some service at another location. I think this is illegal, but you want to take the best route during the engine warranty period.

5. Have the service agent sign and date the maintenance book at every oil change and repair during the warranty period. Keep an exact record of the oil put in, and it's rating (SJ, SL Etc).

6. After the first oil change, I would change over to the full synthetic that the the dealer recommends and uses. Some who have sludged engines mentioned that their oil was "cooked" or burnt. Synthetic will be more durable at higher temperatures.

7. Do at least an annual oil analysis and watch for unusual behavior, especially worn out oil on the lower mileage intervals, and high anti-freeze.

8. Change the Air filter with the oil changes.

Please understand that these recommendations are conservative, and viewed by some on this site as controversial. However, this is what I would do if I owned any Toyota at the present time.

fxashun

http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/

advice_buyused_beware.html

 http://www.autolinkuk.co.uk/mk3fiest.htm

 http://www.alotofcars.com/howtobuy.html

To make up for the links that didn't work above. It seems some will have to be pasted to the browser window.

cliffy1

OK, lets look at a couple of your links here. The first one at theaa has the following quote, "Sludge on the underside of the oil filler cap could indicate poor servicing". COULD indicate eh? Perhaps this implies that further investigation needs to be done like actually pulling the valve cover to make sure it is sludged?

Now on to link #2. If you are buying a Ford Festiva in England, this site probably has some meaning. If not, what is the point?

Link #3 I find interesting that you would even post as it says exactly what dealers have been telling customers. "If the colour is dark black and residue is present, then this indicates that the oil has not been changed for a very long time and hence the car has not been looked after." Shazam! I would never have thought that!

As usual, your post only tells part of the story. Gunk under an oil cap is no de facto proof of engine sludge. If an engine has sludge, it will probably have sludge on the cap but not vice versa. That was my only point and you decided to go off half cocked again.

mrrogers

Thank you for a well written list. I have two more suggestions:
9. Mark your oil filter with a black magic marker or some duct tape prior to taking your car to the "so called" dealer.
10. When you pick up your car, check the oil and check that a new filter was installed prior to leaving the "so called" dealer.

adc100

10. Check oil level periodically

fxashun

that 99.8 percent of the automotive community says that you don't look under the oil cap...."

I just pointed out that there are several sources that DO indicate just that. Just because they didn't say that you look under the cap of Toyota engine number 343h3554 for 2 mm of residue is irrelavant. But if you like straws you are welcome to grab at them.

I'm just pointing out the FACT that there are Toyotas sludging up with less than 20,000 miles on them and regardless of how the sludge is or isn't detected these people are not getting warranty coverage. We can argue about petty stuff like oil caps but that fact remains.

pilot13

I say again, with even more conviction, to arbitrarily dismiss an other wise perfectly good engine because of gunk on the oil filler cap, is silly.
I'll stand with those who know what they're talking about, and have the experience to back it up.
"Le Sludge" cannot be determined by cursory examination of an oil filler cap, no way, no how, in spite of those "selected references" you point to.
BTW, Fxashun, if nothing else, those referenced websites reinforce credibility that sludge is a universal phenomenon, and not as exclusive as you infer.
Cheers, The Pilot.

mrrogers

I was reading Lexus RX300 posts in the SUV message board, and a mechanical engineer had another suggestion:

Mark the level of coolant on your overflow tank so you can immediately see if you are losing any.

adc100

I do that. I am also a M.E., but that's probably coincidence.

cliffy1

I thought your most recent point was that sludge in the cap was proof of sludge. I saw nothing in those links that offered evidence that Toyotas are sludging at 20K and not being covered under warranty. I must not have read them closely enough.

My point was that if the engine is sludged, you will find sludge in the cap but that sludge in the cap does not imply a sludged engine. If you find sludge in the cap, further investigation is required before a true diagnosis is arrived at. You seem to encourage panic by making the oil cap the litmus test and that is silly. You thrive on panic though so I guess it doesn't surprise me.

fxashun

Try reading this topic on Edmunds entitled "Engine Sludge" and you will find people with Toyotas with less than 20,000 miles. There are people there and references to other sources where others are. Talk about not reading closely.

If you find sludge in the cap of your Toyota then you have a problem. If I were you I would ask myself why it's there. There are obviously examples of the afore mentioned Toyotas that don't have sludge so those that have the identical engine and do have an issue. If it weren't an indicator of a problem then all would have none or they all would have it.

pilot13

But he did script the Ten Commandments.
Now our resident authority on all things Sludge has added an Eleventh.
"Thou shalt not doubt the opinions of Fxashun, else ye shall suffer the examples of aforementioned sludge."
Sir, with all due respect,contrary to your alarmist, and very much half cocked comments , looking at a gunked oil filler cap and diagnosing a sludged engine are mutually exclusive.

cliffy1

I'm just trying to figure this out. First, you post a number of links that indicate that when you buy an '89 Ford Festiva in England, you need to check the oil cap for evidence of sludge. You also had links that said sludge in the engine means improper maintenance and another that indicated looking at the oil cap was a start. Then, you made the leap that sludge in the cap meant sludge in the engine and Toyota is not honoring warranties for 20K mile engines. You're all over the place man!

Let's just be clear about this... no sludge in the oil cap means no sludge in the engine. Sludge in the oil cap means you need to investigate further to determine if there is sludge in the engine. Generally, this means pulling the valve cover, unless you've got a better idea.

210delray

But you'll never convince you-know-who.

BTW, my '97 Camry 4-cylinder just passed the 77K mark. Still no sludge! And still no expenses to fix anything beyond normal maintenance items.

oldharry

Now that fibre optic scopes are coming down in price, maybe some who are worried should buy one and look into the engine. You could look in the valve covers by threading it in through the filler cap, and when changing the oil look at the bottom end through the drain hole. These scopes are about 3/8 inch in diameter, and have their own light so you can see what your looking at.

The latest ad I received showed one for under a hundred dollars. That sounds cheap for those fearing many thousands of dollars in repairs.

Harry

seelig

thanks for bringing up the subject about fibre optic scopes. as usual, your wisdom shines through.
thx

Mr_Shiftright

Okay, I'll jump in on this one.

Looking at the oil cap to see if an engine has sludge or not is a complete, total waste of time. It tells you nothing of value except that you need to clean your oil cap.

fxashun

I find several links that say look under the oil cap for sludge but we have posters here (and a host) thatsay it's a total waste of time. Care to find links to back you up as I did? Should be easy since it is a "total waste of time".

Cliffy the lack of waranty coverage and oil cap issue were not linked by this paragraph..

I'm just pointing out the FACT that there are Toyotas sludging up with less than 20,000 miles on them and regardless of how the sludge is or isn't detected these people are not getting warranty coverage. We can argue about petty stuff like oil caps but that fact remains.
The place where it was brought up.

You are the only one barking up that tree. Down boy.

I'm not asking anyone to take my word for it. I provided links of those that also say the same thing I did. Unlike you. I asked people to check for themselves if they don't believe me. You just say "I tell you there's no sludge issue and that's it". Any wary person would be cautious listening to someone who has not at least tried to get outside verification of his/her statements.

And yes I agree that sludge in most cars is a sign of lack of maintenance. But when sludge has been determined to be the cause of the demise of an engine with fewer than 30,000 miles even though there are receipts for oil changes there is a problem. Especially when there is NO OTHER ENGINE ANYWHERE that has shown this tendency. If you find another engine with this tendency I will leave this forum.

lleroi

you will never have more incentive then fxashun's offer in his last post.Even a Briggs&Stratton should qualify.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't really feel I need to provide links on this one. I've got 30 years of taking apart engines, and I feel very comfortable in telling people that what you see on an oil cap may have no relationship whatsoever to the rest of the engine.

In other words, it is not at all unusual for an oil cap to show sludge. Many very healthy engines could have this meaningless symptom--especially engines with some miles on them.

So put it this way: Both totally clean and sludged up engines could have sludged up oil caps. Moisture is often trapped in the cap and mixes with oil residue from the valve train.

How so? Because water is a natural by product of the combustion of gasoline for one thing.