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Pontiac GTO



  • czkf1czkf1 Posts: 17
    Sometimes one must consider the trade offs and whether an apple is a better choice than an orange.

    Same cost, same power, same size.
  • ezraponezrapon Posts: 348
    dictates that prices will drop after the initial excitement dies down AND there will be a new hook the next year. The prices will drop. The hook will be the 400 HP 6.0 vette engine. With the demise of the vette 5.7 (and no other GM applications for this engine) GM will not continue the 5.7 line just for the GTO. The wisdom: next year a much faster car probably cheaper and maybe HUD,sun roof, or a real automatic (5-speed). I'll wait it out.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 11,492
    While it's up to each individual whether to wait to see if upgrades are coming, my experience has been just the opposite of your thoughts regarding GM.

    They've put significant time and money to get the GTO out the door. Changine something as small as adding HUD would cause GM to redesign the dash and replace the windshield.

    The Corvette is GMs top line performance model. They go out of their way to keep that "pecking order" in line, so I doubt they'd drop the C6 engine in the GTO. Plus, the C5 engine has already been amortized by the General. No need to re-tool the current GTO for a different engine when they can use something that's essentially already paid for.

    I do agree that as dealers get some stock, discounting will occur at some point. I wouldn't hold out for an upgrade and/or cheaper MSRP for next years model, however.

    If anything, GM has been known to "decontent" future offerings to save cost of the vast majority of their offerings.
    2018 Acura TLX 3.5 SH AWD A-SPEC
  • white6white6 Posts: 588
    If anything, GM has shown that they continue to improve a model, and then, when it is how it should have been from the start, they kill it. BTW, GTO currently shares same horsepower rating with Corvette (350hp); I doubt they would not simply build the LS2 for both vette and GTO next year. Probably 400 hp for both BUT still with the old 4-speed auto. New C6 Corvette is, according to all the mags, still running beefed-up version of the old 4L65E auto tranny. Someone at the Aussy factory claims to have seen an LS2 GTO "test car" come down the assembly line already, so it seems this will be the major change for the 2005 model.
    I'm 6-3, but wouldn't know if I fit or not; local Pontiac dealer won't let anyone touch their GTO. I told them they might have a bit of a problem selling a car that nobody is allowed to touch...
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,942
    "someone at the at the Aussy factory claims to have seen an LS2 GTO "test car" come down the assembly line already"

    why would a one-off test car be made on an assembly line? Doesn't make sense to me. i don't even see how it could be done. They stopped the line completely and said, "wait a minute, we gotta put a different engine in this one right here." Nah, sorry, i don't buy it.

    By the way, I just saw a commercial for the GTO last night. I'm glad they are starting fairly early. Not quite as early as the new Vette, but not as late as something like the Volvo S60R or RX8 (not comparing the cars, just adverstising strategies).

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • Someone closer to the Monaro could shed some light on what they get that we don't, what improvements were made in the years post-introduction, etc. Still looking for a sunroof at least, heated seats would be nice!
  • ezraponezrapon Posts: 348
    the GM legacy would see a pattern. Every year they find a way to up the ante (hook) to attract new buyers. In a performance car this usually translates to HP or performance. This is a fact. Follow the vette, camaro, or trans am engine offerings over a few year span and it will be clear. HP gains draw in trades and new sales; human nature. There would be little if any modifications to the goat to accept the 6.0, basically the same engine family. For GM to keep a seperate line open for the low production 5.7 could be only logical to one who already has a 5.7 gto and would like it to remain cutting edge... it will not. HUD and other items might be impossible, but the 6.0 is a sure thing. The sales staff at the local dealership indicated this to be so. Not a wise sale ploy, but a fact none the less.
  • Dealers in the St. Louis area are starting to get some in stock; one dealer claims in his ad to have 12! Another says they are arriving daily. Have not gone by either place to see if true, though. In any event, there must be some areas that are getting a lot more GTO's, at least for now.
  • ezraponezrapon Posts: 348
    1.I have seen numerous GTO's in the st. louis showrooms. Moore Pontiac has 3 on the ground 5 in bound. Behlman Pontiac has them arriving daily according to their sign. Both are selling at sticker. 2. What could you be thinking that would make you believe a Mustang GT automatic would come close to a gto in performance. Maybe a Cobra, but never a GT. Mustang gt's and GTO's are not even close to apples or oranges.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 11,492
    I remember a time when ABS brakes were standard on all GM vehicles. That's no longer the case. Same goes for pasenger side door locks.

    I'd be surprised if there were any changes more than some different colors offered in subsequent model years....maybe a change to a Delco stereo as opposed to the more costly Blaupunkt ones.
    2018 Acura TLX 3.5 SH AWD A-SPEC
  • Thats all great the LOA stands for Lack of Avalablity. A few things about the GTO compared to the GT Mustang. Gas tank in the trunk for better weight and performance. A stop watch built into the car. More REAR HEAD AND FOOT ROOM. Greater front and rear tread width. More horsepower,and torque. Fully independent suspension,available 6 speed close ratio manual transmission. longer wheel base...hmmm I think the GTO has a lot more than the mustang =)And not to mention a LS1 motor how much would you normally pay for that.
  • revdrluvrevdrluv Posts: 417
    Saw my first GTO on the freeway today. I have to say it does look much sharper in person.

    Although, if I wasn't such a car nut I probably wouldn't even have noticed it. Also, the badging is so discreet that if I didn't already recognize the shape, I wouldn't have been able to figure it out either.

    One has to wonder if this is supposed to be the reincarnation of the GTO, or an M5 competitor in coupe form!
  • obiwanobiwan Posts: 57
    The only pictures of the graph I have are on other forums so no joy linking to them.

    But, the results were 305 HP and 328 lb-ft of torque at the rear wheels. Assuming 15% drivetrain loss in my 6 speed, that puts it right at 350 HP and 385 lb-ft. The air/fuel mixture got a little lean (about 11.9:1) in the top end so a few minor changes to the computer and I should gain several HP. The torque curve was fairly flat, hitting 300 at about 2250 RPM and holding it above that line until right at about 5252 where the HP and torque lines cross. The extra fuel in the top end will probably pull that part of the line up. The peak came in at just over 4000 RPM. HP peaked at just over 5500.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 11,077
    ezrapon, I saw this car at the St. Louis auto show over the weekend - only problem was they wouldn't let you get even close to it!! I was up on a rotating platform, and was one of the few cars I couldn't even get a decent photo of. They seem very protective of this vehicle, maybe because of the limited stock.


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  • czkf1czkf1 Posts: 17
    One of the good points about the new GTO is the stealth quality. One could remove the emblems and many people would not know what it was. Take the emblems off the 1999 E55 and change the wheels, no one would know it was high performance car. This is what they have in common.

    The mustang GT auto is too flashy. and does not have IRS. The mach1 mustang auto has the DOHC motor, but gets a cast crank and redline limited to 5800rpm and is WAY too flashy, plus no IRS. One would need to find a regular hood for a Mach1.

    The BIG drawbacks to the GTO are the excessive length, 189 inches, small trunk 7 cu ft, and only a four speed auto (gas guzzler). The inside is a snug fit, especially for a person 73 in tall.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,942
    Gas tank in the trunk?? How safe would that be if hit in the rear??

    This is the location for the tank in MANY cars. That's how they come up with these "roomy interiors" that they can all brag about.

    I have a feeling that is where it is in the Mustang, too, but can't find any info on that right now. It was there on my '66, that's for sure.

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • While the current Mustang GT is no match for the GTO in 0-60, the 2005 is projected to have at least 300 hp, about what today's Mach I automatic has (which goes 0-60, per the mags, in about the same as the GTO). So, if this proves true (and the 300 horses are real, not Marauder-style), we may see parity in acceleration. Of course, the GTO will still have an advantage in interior room, while the GT will probably have more trunk room. Handling? Remains to be seen; a modern live-axle arrangement does not necessarily equal worse handling in all situations, although the IRS tends to have an advantage on rough roads, other things being equal.

    Looks? Well, that is personal preference. I saw the 2005 Mustang at the St. Louis auto show. It looked better than the pictures I have seen, but still has a heavy, somewhat truckish look to the front. With all of the crowds around it, though, it was hard to really get a good look at it, as a whole.
  • ezraponezrapon Posts: 348
    try to remember your 68 stang and a 68 gto. Big difference right. A pony car vs a intermediate 2 door sedan. Apples and oranges right? Well wake up, nothing has changed they are two completely differnt cars aimed at differnt customer bases. You might as well compare a vette to a BMW. Stick with your boy racer stang... but move it to another board that cares. The gas tank, by the way was moved to the trunk for safety reasons before being allowed for sale in the US. You might be surprised to find out where gas tanks are located....especially in Fords.
  • I would love to get a new GTO but considering the price and no seating for 5 that will not happen. I like the performance of the GTO, I find the looks to be blaa (looks like a Grand Prix to me). Considering the new Grand Prix's are already being advertised with discounts upwards of $4000.00 I wonder how long the GTO will be able to hold its price. To the common person the GTO looks like a 2 door Grand Prix.

    If Pontiac was hoping to move a lot of GTO's I think they will be discounting them heavy by late fall/early winter.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 11,077
    cougar67, I found it that way with most of the upcoming or just released vehicles. They kept them roped off, and the crowd made it difficult to get a close-up look!


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  • bxd20bxd20 Posts: 68
    Agree mostly. The spread will not be $9k if you load the Mustang up completely (leather seats and any other luxury packages). Also no IRS on the Mustang. For your extra $6000 you get a nicer built/sounding V8, IRS, and exclusivity. To some its worth it, to others its not.

    Thing to remember is, by the time the 05 Mustang GT is out, so will the 05 GTO. And that will be faster and likely gain even more of a luxury edge over the Mustang.

    The GTO will sell, not like hotcakes but it will make money for GM.

  • SnakerBill,

    I’m interested in both the GTO and Mustang (see my bulleted comparison on page 43, post #841). I think both cars have strengths, so I am looking at each in an unbiased way to ensure that I buy the best car for my tastes. Your comments, however, are mostly based on brand loyalty and are riddled with holes.

    Consider some of your complaints:

    • Gas tank location: The GTO’s reinforced gas tank is mounted far forward in the trunk to ensure that it doesn’t rupture in a collision. Check if you want to learn how unsafe the current Mustang is – in a rear-end collision, the rear-mounted tank can easily rupture and roast occupants, even in low-speed collisions.

    • A six-speed transmission has nothing to do with torque and everything to do with fuel mileage. The GTO is rated at 29 hwy, which exceeds the 25 hwy figure for the ‘Stang. (And the Goat has a liter more displacement!)

    • You state that an OHC engine is better than a pushrod engine. Based on what? Although I have not been a GM fan in the past, the 5.7 has rock-solid reliability, tremendous horsepower, and a willingness to rev. So an OHC engine is better in what way? From what I’ve seen on blueovalnews, the Ford 4.6 has had quite a number of problems in various model years, including head gaskets, warped heads (Cobra), valve ticking and other problems.

    You make good points with regard to the Mustangs use of regular grade fuel (about a 12% price difference, though, not 20%), and the price difference. The rest of your statements are opinions which you present as fact, and even at that, they are extremely uninformed.

    I'm still undecided on which car to buy ('05 Mustang or '05 GTO), but at least TRY to keep things factual.
  • blh7068blh7068 Posts: 375
    "The GTO will sell, not like hotcakes but it will make money for GM."

    At 18,000 copies/year for the next 3 years it wont have to sell like "hotcakes". My guess is they will all sell and no incentives will be required to move 'em.
  • ezraponezrapon Posts: 348
    Excellent reply. Good insight lots of non-delusional facts. If time is not an issue, perhaps the 5 seat GPX might suit you better. Insiders say it will eventually have the 300 hp northstar. I too have an issue with the 4 seat capacity. I sold my 2000 SSEi in anticipation of the GTO or GXP, but now like the 300 c Hemi layout. The odd looks an previously questionable build quality are issues. Perhaps the 300c and GTO might be closer to apples and apples; not a mustang.
  • czkf1czkf1 Posts: 17
    The manual trans 2004 GTO gas mileage looks pretty good.

    The automatic 2004 GTO has a guzzler tax (freeway).

    The 2004 Mustang Mach1 automatic ( but flashy) has no guzzler tax, MSRP is $30,575, no IRS (only $2k less than GTO, $32,495).

    The GM and Ford engines are both basically pretty good, although they put a cast crank in the DOHC Mach1 automatic car.

    The 2004 Mach1 is about 300 pounds lighter & six inches shorter than the 2004 GTO.

    The new 2005 Mustang looks much nicer than the 2004 mustang.

    The mustang gas tank is on the bottom, between the bumper and rear axle, not real safe, if the bumper hits the tank. The 2004 GTO gas tank is more isolated for crashes. The mustang gas tank is in the same location area as part of the IRS trailing arms on the 2004 GTO.
  • blah blah blah. I love 'em all. Already have the cobra and now I'll take a GTO for a well-rounded education.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 25,942
    I do not know about the 66, but to put a gas tank in the trunk is stupid.

    you DO know. I just told you. Its in the trunk.

    But I am curious. If it was not in the trunk in the '68, then just where did the fuel filler neck run? Its in the same location as the '65-67, which was in the center of the rear panel under the trunk lid. The fuel filler neck ran right down into the gas tank, which was right there under the trunk. So where did it run in '68? You mean to tell me that the neck ran down from the rear panel through the trunk, made a 90 degree turn, ran all the way under the trunk to in front of the rear axle? I find that odd. I'm not saying its not true. Just making an observation.

    '18 BMW 330xi; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 47-car history and counting!

  • imontyimonty Posts: 13
    fbrussee asks what we get in Australia. We get a Monaro through Holden which can be 4 speed auto or 6 speed manual, rear spoiler is an option, so is sunroof (it opens to three quarter only), 18" wheels are standard but 19" are option. You can get SatNav as well. We can also buy it through HSV but they don't call it a Monaro, they have GTO (not the same as yours,) soon there will be a GTS a hotter version, Coupe LE which has more a luxury pack and then we will soon have the Coupe4 which is the All Wheel Drive version. These are all more powerful and have better brakes than the Monaro. If you want look at and for all specs. The talk here is that a convertible is on the cards but I would think it would be in 2006. Our Commodore (from which the Monaro evolved) is due for a major update in 2006 so I guess it will be a concurrent thing and being worked on now so security will be tight. I haven't heard of anything regarding HUDs or the like, but will keep my ears open. Holden are very good at keeping secrets until they are good and ready to let out "ticklers" of info. I think we should start hearing things around Sept.
    I'm glad to see some of the reactions to the GTO. It is confronting to get an import with a revered local name but judge it for what it is a great car.
    Re Exploding gas tanks. I haven't heard of any Monaros catching on fire from rear shunts (ours have the fuel tank under the trunk). We have only seemed to have had any fires when people started spiking our fuel with ethanol. Otherwise it is rare to hear of fires in anything other than catastrophic crashes. Now that the ethanol problem has been solved no more fires (think flashpoints).
    Hope this info is what you were after
  • I'd predict we'd get the sunroof and the bigger wheels and tires for '05, not a lot more except some stripe packages, maybe a ram air hood for the upcoming 'Judge' package or whatever they'll call it. I'm frustrated because by the time my '04 arrives, the '05 version updates will be well known, and likely dealers will be discounting more as well. Sounds like it's gonna be '07 before we see major changes...but I had heard the GTO was a three year ONLY program, so maybe in '07 our GTO will be called a Monaro...with deep discounting to match!!!
  • The snake may not get his facts right but he sure can stir things up can't he?

    Two quick points:
    1) with premium gas at $1.80/gal here and going higher the GTO will be a very expensive everyday driver
    2) I also saw it at the St Louis auto show. The styling just did not grab me. I know many like the "low key" look but the car just has no character of its own. Maybe the '05 will be an improvement. The interior was very nice except for the lack of full instrumentation.
This discussion has been closed.