Pontiac GTO

felbie

I am looking to lease one as well, what deal did you get?

slickwilliedj

The gto is marketed to an entirely different group of people 30+ age group rather then 18-20 somethings for the mustang. What makes this car so cool is that not every one will have one on every corner like a mustang and they won't be in rental fleets either! Yes the GTO is a sleeper but thats half the fun of owning this car! when was the last time you saw a car mag compare a mustang against a mercedes??? Motor trend compared the gto against a clk 55 and there conclusion was for the money you can't beat it! now with 400hp what other car and you buy with 400hp for $35k??? nothing! now thats the GTOS POINT! sorry mustang ):

ford = found on road dead! have you driven a ford lately uhhh nope....... they cant even build a decent transmission they have to ask for GM's HELP!!! UMM makes you wonder...

kevm14

I predict the new Mustang will outsell the new GTO by a very huge margin.

Wow, that's some incredible insight. I'd say that since Ford is producing roughly 10x the number of Mustangs as the GTO, what you said was already common knowledge.

kevm14

That's a freaking batmobile. Or I could call it a joke-on-wheels. Whichever you prefer.

slingshot80

I read the MT article. Ultimately they liked the Mercedes a lot better but it was double the price. The main criticism I have read of the GTO is the handling isn't razor sharp. Maybe they can improve this in 2006. However with 400 hp they should sell a lot. My family has been buying Pontiac's for years, never had any problems with any of them.

Wouldn't buy another Ford after my experience with the Contour. Not very reliable although it was fun to drive. Also new Mustang does not have IRS except for their expensive models. Ford's reason is that people can modify it but most will not buy it for drag racing. I have to admit though the new Mustang is a lot better looking than the GTO. But as they say beauty is only skin deep.

kevm14

The new GTO is styled to resemble Pontiac's _current_ standard cars, the Grand Am/Grand Prix (I especially see a major resemblance in the GTO's front end with the previous-generation Grand Prix, which I personally prefer to the 04-newer bodystyle). The new GTO follows the same formula - looks just like a standard Pontiac, except having a big engine. Where the formula differs is that the new GTO can do more than just go fast in a straight line...

I fully support your argument. But I'd like to play devil's advocate for a moment. While the GTO does resemble other Pontiac models (specifically the previous gen Grand Prix as you mentioned), and the original GTO also resembled other models (tempest, et al), there is one glaring difference: The original GTO WAS a tempest. It was the same chassis, the same car. The GTO has NOTHING mechanically in common with a Grand Prix. So the new GTO shares styling elements with other Pontiacs but for a completely different reason than the old one did the same.

On your final point, I don't see why GM couldn't offer all the equipment you can get in, say, a G35, for G35 money. There's no reason one should have to pay CTS-V money for all that equipment. The LS1 or LS2 are probably cheaper to produce than any of the competition's OHC engines, so don't say the engine drives up the cost. I test drove a black M6 GTO back in January of this year and also greatly lamented the abscence of auto climate control and a moonroof. HIDs aren't as important to me but should surely be optional. Nav and heated seats, same deal.

kevm14

That's the first I had heard of the LS2 going into anything except the C6.

It's actually been a rumor floating around for months now, only recently substantiated.

kevm14

I have to admit though the new Mustang is a lot better looking than the GTO. But as they say beauty is only skin deep.

Give it a year or two and I guarantee it will look stale. And Ford can go nowhere with the design. Plus, when we start to see tons of Mustangs equipped with the High School Girl Package (HSGP - V6 auto, some convertibles), I think our opinion of the Mustang will sour (mine already is).

exzur

Quote: "Give it a year or two and I guarantee it will look stale. And Ford can go nowhere with the design"

I prefer the way Ford recreated the new Mustang, Combining modern styling with the looks of the late 60’s classic car, Ford has followed the steps of the MINI. IMO, this is the best design, Ford has done to the Mustang.

Saying with guarantee that in a year or two, the looks will be stale, could only come from a Nostradamus impostor.

sphinx99

What's with Motortrend? First they compare a CLK320 to an Accord V6 coupe, and now they're comparing a CLK55 to a Pontiac GTO? They sure seem to have issues with the CLK.

kevm14

I prefer the way Ford recreated the new Mustang, Combining modern styling with the looks of the late 60’s classic car

Ok, fine, but what do you do as a Ford designer, when it comes time to freshen the styling? Retro styling, by definition, can only be a fad-type-thing, where it's around for a little while, then gone. Do you see how the new Mustang cannot represent "future Ford styling trends?" What do you see when you look at a New Beetle? Certainly the PT Cruiser doesn't really stand out anymore. Fortunately for the PT, it is an adequate, practical and economical car.
I see retro styling only as a means to create a buzz and this buzz can only be a temporary thing. It looks cool now because it's so different, or reminds us of past cars, which we certainly don't see much of on the streets. But flood the streets with Mustangs, as Ford plans to do and I see styling that may have been regarded as a "modern recreation" at its inception, turn into something simply stale.

slingshot80

Have the people who actually own this vehicle had major reliability problems? I read about 600 -700 postings and I don't see major problems. I have also been monitoring the RX-8 forum and they are having major issues.

robertkcal

I have owned my GTO since December (was on the first ship).

I haven't had one problem. The fit and finish is far superior to any GM production car (for that matter, any american car). The interior is superb (no plastic inserts) and the seats are very supportive and comfortable.

Along with the obvious power, the car handles very well.

For a car that people say is bland, I sure get alot of positive comments from people.

hammen2

The GTO has been out since 2001/2002 in Australia (as the Holden Monaro), so I'm sure many of the bugs have been worked out by now. There were 500+ engineering changes that Pontiac made - other than the obvious gas tank relocation, including a new interior (as the plastics in the original would not have held up to the hot/cold temperature extremes in the U.S.), revised exhaust sounds, et. al.

Researching one for a possible purchase, I have read a number of boards. There were a number of goofy alarm/security problems with some of the cars - turns out the batteries were drained/damaged due to the long delay between shipping. I presume this has been fixed in later shipments. A number of folks had issues with creaking/groaning noises from the suspension - turns out the delivering dealers never did the PDI and didn't remove some of the shipping materials from the suspension!

There was a problem with improperly-torqued bolts on the stick cars, but that was early builds only. There is a service bulletin coming out on the manual, but I'm not familiar with the specifics (we plan to buy a Cosmos Purple automatic, but haven't pulled the trigger yet - wondering if incentives are going to increase after September 7 - there are at least 5 Cosmos Purple autos within 100 miles of our house, so we're not overly concerned with missing out on one)...

--Robert

slingshot80

If I buy one it will be at least a year a way and the 400 hp model. I don't think the price is that out of line given what they are charging for other cars. I would think that the engine will be ultra reliable and last forever. Also due to the low volume will probably be a collector's item at some point in time.

tolenash

2500 miles in 5 weeks. No problems at all to comment on. Had the 1500 mile oil change performed thanks to my salesman.

Like someone posted before: everyone who sees/rides in my blue/blue m6, loves it. Their first question is always "that thing fast?"
Uh, yeah. Mileage over my last 200 mile weekend trip averaged 24 hwy and 19 city. Once it cools off some more, I won't have to run the A/C all the time and the mpg should go up to 26/27, 20/21. I am trying to be conservative and keep the RPMs under 2700. I have already removed the skip-shift.

slingshot80

Is the ship-shift the lock-out that forces you to go from 1st to 4th gear with the manual transmission? Its ironic you mention that because in researching the 6 speed manual transmission this morning, I saw a reference on a Corvette website that unless you are accelerating quickly you can't shift from 1st to 4th. How does that work? The article said it couldn't be defeated.

Also saw references that the shifting is vague. Any comments and any improvements on the 05? Apparently the Corvette is going to have two manual transmission choices. The manual on my Contour was very poor and if I purchase another vehicle with a manual shift, I want a smooth one.

tolenash

yes, you are correct.

I found that completing the skip shift from 1-4 drops the RPMs from around 1900-2200 to below 900. This makes the engine/tranny "groan." It doesn't sound or feel good. Hence, I disabled it.

To paraphrase from the manual:

the skip shift is an interlock solenoid that prevents you from shifting from 1st to 2nd, 3rd, 5th, or 6th (and reverse too, though I've never tried that one). Now it only does this when throttle position is between 1 and 21% (I believe) and the the coolant temp is at least 195 deg. There is no way to completely disable the system but you can bypass the solenoid by unplugging the CAGS (Computer Aided Gear Selection) harness and plugging the correct resistor/aftermarket harness into it. Search the forums for the detailed part and instruction sheet to do this. You can alternatively order a plug-type harness from mamotorworks.com (p/n 603-703 for 97-04 LS1 engines approx $20 plus shipping).

The skip shift indication that appears on the instrument panel, will still appear (since you are locking out the solenoid, not the computer) but the solenoid won't actuate and block the gates into 2,3,5,6 gear.

The way I defeated the computer before disabling the CAGS was to push and hold the clutch, let the RPMS drop off, then the computer sees no acceleration, opens the gate back up to allow shifting to 2nd, and you shift normally. The only problem with this is that you lose alot of momentum due to the longer time it takes to complete the shift. The other way to defeat the skip is to just drive like a bat out of hell...

nb2169

You can call it whatever you wish, flame-bait.

slingshot80

Thanks for the info. The article said GM agreed to do this some years ago in return for an EPA credit. Sounds to me like it isn't worth it. Nice to know it can be defeated. The last thing I would want to think about is whether I am going fast enough to be able to shift into second or third. Could conceivably cause an accident. As you said the other way to defeat it is to drive like hell thereby negating the whole purpose of it!!!

When I had my 5 speed Contour, I would often shift from 1st to 4th so I didn't have to "row" through 2nd and 3rd but there was obviously no lock-out.

tolenash

In regards to the skip shift, it isn't something you need to think about. I was really only conscious of it when it thwarted my attempts to get into second gear. Thats the case where I would take the extra second or two to let RPMs fall. When the conditions are met for the lock-out of the gears, the computer displays a picture of the shift pattern with an arrow pointing from 1-4, on the center LCD of the gauge cluster. As soon as you throttle passed that 21% the graphic disappears and you're on your way. Basically, I am saying don't let it keep you buying the stick shift (or the car). It is easily bypassed, much to my satisfaction.

hammen2

Broke down and bought the Cosmos Purple Metallic 2004 GTO (auto) tonight. Car was sitting on the showroom floor, all glossied up (only a few dealer-added swirl marks :-( with 8 miles on it. Arrived at the dealer about a week ago, build date of late May. Paid GMS less the $2k financing rebate and $500 GM Extended Family Card dollars. With it being this pristine (car now has 18 miles on it after the test-drive), our thoughts to wait until after September 7 to see if the incentives increased, went right out the window. Car is really solid, pretty interior (IMHO best GM makes except maybe new STS), awesome sound, incredible handling, amazing power. And I do like the looks a lot. This will be the wife's daily driver for awhile, but I have this funny feeling it's going to end up being mine when she gets tired of it (and I'm not upset with that at all :-)

Just hoping I can sleep tonight - we pick the car up tomorrow afternoon...

--Robert

sputterguy

Sorry, I haven't been on the tube for a few days so just now saw your post. It's a long and interesting story how this all went down but I won't bore you with it unless you ask. Bottom line I put $800 down and my payments are $402 per month on a four year lease. Tax and license included and no security deposit. It is supposed to be the equivalent of $500 over list if I was to buy. Plus the $2000 incentive of course, which was added to my down payment. The incentive brought the payment down almost $50. Without the incentive it would have been $449.

gshumway1

The Pontiac boys in my neck of the woods are finally comming off MSRP to move their inventory of 04 GT0's. I am seriously looking at buying one. Currently I have a written quote for an M6 for 28,399.

What do you guys think. Hold out for another grand off. These things aren't exactly flying off the lots.

When do the 05's hit the dealers showrooms?

casoncase

A lot of the opinions against the '04 GTO seem to be driven by non-factual, emotional impulses; some of the opinions are blatant attempts to impugn the new GTO, perhaps posted by Mustang sales reps.
I have 7,500 on my goat and, as far as serious mechanical complaints and subjective impressions of the unit, my GTO easily exceeds my experience with the Audi A6 Turbo which preceded my goat.
This GTO is awesome for the price I paid for it (sticker). The mystery here is: Where are the other GTO's? I got mine in early February. I have seen only one other goat on the road since then.
Whatever the mystery, I am absolutely getting the '05. BTY, does anyone know what the MSRP is on the '05?
My major concern? I hope GM retains the marvelous, sonorous rumble of the LS1 that is so perfectly produced in the '04. I've owned the A6 Turbo, a 427 Vette ('64), but this car makes my heart race more than any.

gshumway1

GM has hardly sold 3000 units. It is not surprising you haven't seen other units on the road. Consider yourself, and your car...special!

MSRP for the base 05's with the LS2 is reported to be with-in a few hundred dollars of the 04's. Scoops, spoilers, and other appearance options will add to that price.

hammen2

...has not been established, but, given GM's strong "under $35k" message, expect $34,995. The GTO will include the LS2 and the hood scoops, though there is a "delete" option (which you'll probably have to order). There are other (Autocross) appearance kits (different front fascia, rear wing) which will be more $$$.

My suggestion is, do what we intended to do. Use GMBuyPower to look around local dealers for the car you want. If you want a red or black car, they're pretty plentiful, but if you want a Cosmos Purple or an Impulse Blue w/Blue Leather, jump on the car now (especially the Cosmos and Barbados colors, as those won't be offered next year). It's a good bet that incentives will probably increase somewhat after the current ones expire on September 7, but that's not for certain. The dealer we bought ours from has sold 3 this week (2 others besides mine).

The '05's begin assembly next month, but won't hit dealers on these shores until December at the earliest. GM has to move however many GTO's that haven't been sold (I think 3500 were sold through July) before the '05's hit...

--Robert

montanafan

Through July the 2004 GTO had sold over 4,600 units. According to reports they are on track for a 1,100 unit month in August, but there are a lot more net posts recently from new GTO buyers.

A Chicago Tribune article quoted the head of Pontiac as saying 2005 GTO would be $1,000 to $1,500 more then the 2004. So $34,999 could be the winner.

04gto

The 05's are supposed to be at the dealerships in late Dec from what I here.

Sep 7th is the next deadline for rebates and incentives. I wouldn't think it could hurt to wait for that and see what Pontiac will do then.

felbie

Thanks for the response sputterguy, how many miles per year? Was this a GMAC lease?

jpstax1

Yep. You're right about the '05 GTO coming out in December. I talked to the service manager at our local Buick/Pontiac dealership and he said the same thing you did. Hp will be close to 400. He gave me a site that talks all about the new LS2 engine. Here is it: http://www.ls2.com

jpstax1

Found another site on the LS2 motor for the '05 GTO. Here it is: http://www.ls2gto.com/forums/

white6

Local dealer is advertising $27,988 for new 04 GTO's. They have nine in stock; black/black 6-speed is tempting. Especially when I add in the $1,000 GM Mastercard bonus cash with my $350 earnings.... no out of pocket and $26,500 for car that stickers at $33,190. Maybe they will actually let me test drive one now...

jpstax1

While waiting for an oil change with my '98 Regal GS, a salesman was happy to let me test drive a black GTO with a 6-speed. I was very impressed! The acceleration was stronger than my nephew's '00 Camaro SS, which also has a 6-speed. SLP will probably be selling aftermarket performance parts for the LS1 engine which should raise its horsepower to that of the LS2.

hammen2

GM upped the GMAC financing incentive from $2k to $3500, effective today. You can still combine this with the 0.9/36, 1.9/48 and 2.9/60 month financing (assuming you qualify - FICO above 700, usually).

Dealer invoice on an auto is around $31,700. Add on tax, subtract the rebate amount and any GM card dollars or GMS pricing (another $1500 or so), and the $3500 and the discounted finance rates, and you're looking at one sweet deal on one hell of a car.

I'm not sorry I didn't wait the 5 days, though, as I got the car I wanted with 8 miles on it. Guess I'm even more upside down now. Oh well :-)

--Robert
358 miles on the GTO and loving it (but being very gentle :-)

white6

Test drove a six-speed car yesterday. Power was intoxicating. Fifth gear and 70 mph; roll into throttle and it just pushes you back into the seat! Low end torque is just wonderful! That said, the car I drove had 300 miles on it and was not what I would call cosmetically impressive. Dirty windshield, dirty floors, drivers' side mirror was broken (wouldn't adjust; just bumped over and over). Ride was a little firmer than I expected; about the same as my 01 Formula. Not bad, I just thought these cars were a little softer riding. Steering was nicely weighted; firm but not stiff. Shifter was a little vague; gates were not as well defined as I would have liked; probably something you just need to get used to. This car requires a firm hand; no [non-permissible content removed]-footing around. Not like the smooth-finese I am used to in my BMW 325i. GTO is definitely a man-car; no "girly-men" need apply. If that previous post is correct, I could be looking at $25,000 out the door (not including tax). That's about $10,000 below what people were paying six months ago! My main concern is: what will it be worth six months from now? A year? I'm afraid the depreciation hit on these things is gonna be fearce. I know, I know, if you don't sell it, the depreciation means nothing. But I'm notorious for loosing interest in about a year and wanting something "new." Maybe it would just force me to keep it, which we all know is the most economical thing to do when it comes to cars!

hammen2

Depends upon if the '05's sell. I know a bunch of folks who were holding out for the '05's for the scoops/more HP/better brakes, but are now reconsidering. Dealers probably initially won't be discounting the '05s, so you're probably looking at an $8k difference between the '04 and '05 (and that doesn't include the financing options). For $8k you can put a new hood on the '04 and tons of mods to make the car outperform the '05 (supercharger, anyone?).

I think the more common colors (black/silver/red) will not be in as much used demand as the more rare color combinations (the Pulse Red 40th Anniversary GTO's, which were the last 800 built, and then the Cosmos Purple and Barbados Blue are the more rare colors, along with the Impulse Blue w/Blue Leather). Doesn't matter to us as we're likely to hang onto the car until well after it's paid off (will probably be garaging it winters, so the mileage shouldn't be too high by that time).

Agree with you on the power and on the handling. Sorry that the car you test-drove was dirty - mine was a little, too (hadn't yet been detailed by them - I told them not to, took care of it myself, thankyouverymuch). The ride is a bit harsher than expected (certainly a world of difference from my Aurora), but it seems to be getting a little less bouncy the more I drive the car. Interior build quality is great - better than any recent GM car I've seen (my Aurora's actually not too bad, but my wife's '01 GTP is a mess). I had a little rubbing/squeaking from behind the steering wheel (even after adjusting the tilt and telescope), which went away the next day, so I'm not too worried about it. Only one minor paint flaw I'm going to have the dealer fix (probably shouldn't have made it through inspection - it's a factory flaw, not a scratch or ding).

--Robert

midwesttrader

August = 967
YTD = 5551
Has anyone seen a final number for '04 production?

The 40th Anniversary model is tempting but I'm quite sure they'll stick it to anyone serious about buying one.

To all those wanting (not needing) a car think about what is happening right now; plenty of cars, financing available, rebate increasing. If you can hold off until this time next year for an '05 you should be able to get a fabulous deal. That's what I hope to do.

wildeman3

how can i confirm the new rebate offer?

please let me know as i am going to buy this afternoon.

mjw

sputterguy

No sweat dude. This is kinda weird but like everything else about this deal it ended up different than what I thought it was. But it has always worked out better for me so naturally I haven't complained. Anyway, there were two options, 12K a year or 15K a year. I took the 12K option but later on I was looking at the contract and darned if it didn't say I had to return it with 60K or less. That sounds like 15K a year to me. The payment is what it was supposed to be including the incentive so I think for some reason I just got the added miles for free. Now you've got me thinking maybe I should check with the dealer and see if I can get a few more bucks off the payment. Kinda long winded answer to your question I know. Oh yeah, almost forgot, I am leasing it through GMAC.

kentmoon

Dealer in LA Area is offering me $2500 off MSRP (right at invoice) on 6M plus $3500 GMAC discount. It that a good deal??

I think I will lease it for 3 years.

kentmoon

He just called offered me $471/month inc tax for 36 month and 20,000 miles per year.

sputterguy

From my recent experience that sounds like a good deal for a 36 month lease. It seems more on the order of $4000 off though, which is approximately what I got off the MSRP. What kind of down payment are they asking for?

kentmoon

Its $0 drive off. The car price is $2500 off of msrp plus $3500 GMAC, so I am getting $6000 off of msrp in total.

It seems like a good deal, but perhaps, someone got a better deal??

sputterguy

Big decision dude, good luck.

hotshot24

If you don't like the car you want have to see it in less your drving a vette viper or porsche!

chinamonty

I have just received my latest Australian Magazine here in China and it tells me they are sure that not only will the GTO 2005 have horrible hood holes but the Australian Monaro will have to have this rubbish as well. They go on to say that the LS2 GenIV will only be single cam, but will have two valves and pushrods. At least it will be lighter. GM seem to be making a mistake in Australia as although the GTO appears to get the GenIV from start of 2005 models the Monaro will have to wait. I guess the buyers will too. Does anyone know whether it is easy for a bodyshop to close up the useless vents on the bonnet. It doesn't look easy but then professionals will know better. still I gues from Holdens point of view if you guys really wanted vents in the bonnet then Ihope you really meant it and will buy heaps of them!

Cheers from China

robertkcal

You can order the car with a "Hood Scoop Delete" option if you don't want them.

b4z

There are $500 Dealer Certificates available. The dealer can use up to 2 of them on the GTO to close a tough deal.
This is unadvertised and they probably don't want you to know about them.
$1000 savings on a lease will probably drop your payment by almost $30.

bxd20

FYI:
$999 down, $299 a month for 36 months for 12,000 miles is now the "norm" if you have decent credit. If you have great credit and the dealer has a lot of GTOs piling up, you can probably negotiate the down payment into disappearing. Shop around. This incentive is definitely avail. till 9/30, and if a lot of inventory hasn't been moved by then it will continue.