Pontiac GTO

hammen2

I haven't been to wieckphoto.com, but they may have 2005 GTO pics up there. Or Google, there are other automotive forum-type web sites (can't post the URL's here w/o getting in trouble/having the posts deleted).

Re: sunroofs, nope, though you can get one put in for about $1500 (think it's made by Webasto (sp?)).

--Robert

andys120

for the new 2005 GTO with airscoops and all, here it is, straight from Down Under...

http://carsguide.news.com.au/news/story_page/0,8269,10274956%255E- 21822,00.html

Pretty cool sez, I.

jeffhall76

I had the chance to test drive a red '04 GTO (automatic) today. I was really impressed with the build quality and overall interior. I knew it was nice but seeing it in person made me really appreciate the European feel of it. Of course it's fast and I was totally impressed with handling and acceleration. I felt very at home in the GTO and it has an amazingly similar "feel" about it as my 2000 Catera. Of course, the Catera is a snail in comparison. My only complaints are:

1) No factory sunroof available
2) No Xenon headlight option
3) No Onstar option (used mine today on my Cadillac Catera and it saved me big time)
4) No automatic A/C (minor gripe)
5) Pontiac's paltry warranty on a car that will be mega expensive to fix.

I see how they cut out certain features to keep the price low (who'd pay $40K for a Pontiac??).

They were eager to deal as they offered me the car off the bat at sticker plus having a sunroof installed. I'm sure I could negotiate it even lower. I told the salesguy that I was going to wait out to see if rebates would come about. I'm not really interested right now and I think the '04 will be a mistake even though I prefer this hoodscoopless model that has a nice touch of European (Austrailian) elegance. If this car doesn't catch on quick, resale values are going to tank (especially on the '04s). Nice car anyway and it's nice to see GM fishing through their subsidiaries parts bins again.

As a former Subaru SVX (if you know what that is) owner I know what it is like to own a 30K+ luxury sports coupe from a company that has a lower cost image an then abandons the car due to low sales and tons of mistakes marketing the car. Nobody was going to pay $32,000 for a Subaru back in 1991. Due to its complexity and rarity, it was also very hard to find anyone competent enough to get it fixed and parts were so ridiculously expensive that it made my credit card bills skyrocket. I hate to see that happen again but I see a lot of parallels between the GTO and the SVX. If you don't know much about the SVX, you may be interested to research it a bit as the story seems to be very similar to the GTO thus far. A wonderful car that never caught on with the general public but still enjoys a loyal (if small) following today.

Sorry for the long winded message!

rob999

Thanks, Andys120, for posting the link to the new pics.

I like that hood scoop treatment a lot. Very subtle and well-done.

qbrozen

that same pic is in the new autoweek, too, along with a statement that it will come with the 400 hp LS2 and that GM is trying desperately to clear out the '04s.

jae5

rob999

At least, according to a recent AutoWeek:

"Also available is a new hood design incorporating a pair of stylish air scoops. The scoops draw fresh air in to the GTO’s engine compartment. "

exalteddragon1

Its the doors of the car, the big windows make it look like point-dexter's car. This car, from the side view look so much like a cavalier its insulting. It's like the engine is just gonna get and walk away from the car saying "What the hell was I doing in there!"

The car does not look aggressive (the front end, oh please!) it does not have the Xenon or nav (350Z) and this is why it will not sell. I think people will be more than happy to shell out 35K If this car looked more like the Firebird replacement it was supposed to be. IMO the hood scoops actually look like they don't belong there.

Oh, well. Pontiac's failure is Nissans gain. Dammit.

And this car has so much going for it, the interrior, the exhaust note, but most people would not want to be caught dead driving a geek mobile. THe styling is that off compared to the Z and the RX-8.

sputterguy

Briefly, I just leased a silver 6-speed. I got a great lease and a $2000 incentive. That was good enough for me. I have never seen another one on the road although they probably have sold a dozen in the area (San Jose). It's nice being the only one around. For now at least.

desertrat5

As I drove by Midway Pontiac in north Phoenix over the week end I noticed a yellow GTO on their display turntable. As it turned toward me, it exhibtited a hood fully equipped with two air scoops. Are the '05s already out or was this an aftermarket add on?

hammen2

The '05's don't even start being built in Australia until September, so you won't see any here in the U.S. until December at the earliest.

I read somewhere that GM was considering producing a bunch of '05 hoods and shipping them off to dealers to install on '04's, in an effort to move those cars. I'm pretty sure what you saw was aftermarket, either from MPD or PFYC...

--Robert

exzur

I agree with those folks that the problem is the body shell, not the engine nor the hood. Putting a 400 hp engine and hood scop into a giant size cavalier would mean more $$$ losses for GM.

exalteddragon1

exzur

The looks of the new GTO is not in the mold of the RX8, Nissan Z, Mustang, the late Firebird/Camaro twin, etc. The appearance of the GTO is more in the group of the Alero/GrandAm coupe, Cobalt, etc., worthy of a 4 or 6 cylinder engine, not a high powered V8.

I may have missed it, but I never heard, no one not satisfied about the power in the GTO, All complaints are in the shape, looks, appearance or whatever the word is.

When the sales of the GTO plummeted, too far behind GM expectation. Instead of listening to consumers, GM went on its way replacing an already too powerful 350 hp engine with a new 400 hp 2005 Corvette V8 engine.

Most likely, MSRP will go up. Very few will pay a wolf's price for an Alero/GrandAm or Cobalt look alike.

I could be wrong, GM or Mr Lutz has just adopted the wrong medicine.

slingshot80

Most of the criticism, I have read of the GTO relates to its handling. The article in Forbes really panned it. Consumer Reports in this month’s issue didn’t like it that much and Edmunds isn’t crazy about it. It apparently is based upon a ten-year-old platform. How is its repair record in Australia? However, I think it will do fairly well once the larger engine is installed if GM keeps the price reasonable because of its quickness. I personally would rather have top notch handling than pure speed. I do agree it’s a very plain looking car but I believe many of the muscle cars in the sixties including the original GTO were nothing special.

hammen2

Gee, I took one for a test-drive and had no complaints. Took a 20 mph freeway exit curve at 40 with no squealing/effort and probably could have done it at 50+ (didn't want to frighten the sales rep in the car).

The problem is getting people to actually drive the car rather than read the reviewers complaining about its sleeper styling (hello, the 1964 GTO was Tempest with a big engine - the 2004 looks like the previous-version Grand Prix, with a big engine) and the fact that its original chassis is derived from the Opel Omega (which later begat the Cadillac Catera). Ford sold Mustangs based on the 1979-era Fox chassis for how long exactly?

rob999

I used to have a 1967 GTO and it still warms my heart to see one of these at a car show. In reality though, (in its stock form) the GTO was almost indistinguishable at a glance from the Tempest "fleet car" and the slightly upscale LeMans. The exterior of GTO had different signal lights, badges and a non-functional hood scoop, but one really had to take a second look to differentiate it from its sisters. It even shared family resemblances to the Catalina and Bonneville of the same period.

I think the subtle styling of the current GTO is preferable to having something with a lot of bulges, cladding and non-functional ground effects stuff added.

It will be interesting to see what GM does with pricing on the 2005 GTO with the advent of the new Mustang. While some diehards may argue that the Mustang's powerplant won't "compete" with the new LS2, both cars will in fact compete in the same market niche.

midwesttrader

for the '04 were announced on 11/3/03. If GM hopes to continue the momentum generated by the incentives they better have the '05 on the lots asap and get more advertising going now.

rob999 - Most don't want "a lot of bulges, cladding and non-functional ground effects." What we do want is something with some flair and character for our $30K. A Cavalier on steroids isn't it.

graphicguy

Just curious, what makes people think that the new GTO will have the LS2 Corvette engine in it and have anywhere near 400HP?

While I think a lot of the current GTO. I've driven one and found the handling/ride to be just fine. Don't much care for the GP derivative styling, but that's not what this car is all about.

exzur

Before I even think of buying a car, I have to like the styling(outside appearance) first.
The performance, build quality, etc., etc.., etc.. comes later.
  
With the new GTO, I don’t see any styling resemblance with the Tempest or the original car. With the 2005 Mustang, I can notice some of the genes or DNA of the 1966 Mustang classic car..

What I can see in the new GTO are genes or DNA of Alero, GrandAM , Grand Prix, Cavalier and Lumina.

Instead of just rebadging an Australian GM Holden car, GM should have spent the time and money in the production of the GTOs.

I predict the new Mustang will outsell the new GTO by a very huge margin.

If it took more than twenty years, for the Mustang to kill the Camaro/Fitrebird twin, don’t be surprise if the new Mustang eradicates the Australian GTO in three years.

bigdaddycoats

GM has stated that for 05 it will get the LS2.

Go to here:

http://media.gm.com/division/2005_prodinfo/

nb2169

http://ultimategto.com/scripts/showcar.cgi?type=show&pic=/199- - 9/99_00001_1
The above link is more in line with what I was expecting from GM when I heard they were going to revive the GTO. It beats the hell out of a rebadged Holden in my opinion.

pompilius

That's barf on wheels. That thing was made out of styrofoam only for autoshows a few years ago. Some people poked fun at it by poking it with pens.

wilcox

don't have to sweat on being a prime candidate for traffic tickets...unless the color is bright red. Aahahaha!

bmark

That looks as bad as the Monte Carlo. Just take the GTO out for a test drive and you will love it. It puts every other car on the road in the dust. The handeling is great, and they are putting 400 hp in it for 2005. I am definately going to get one

hammen2

GM is planning on an "Americanized" GTO. Problem was, in 2003, there was no acceptable RWD chassis available to build the car. Holden had one, plus had plant capacity and the engineering ability to build a new RWD platform. Hence, the 2004 GTO, and the new Zeta platform, which will be out in 2007.

Had GM not moved the Monaro over to the US (re-engineered/new interior to meet U.S. specs/environment, but slightly decontented to keep costs down), the earliest we would have seen a new GTO is 2007. I'll take the compromise - I personally think the GTO is one of GM's best cars (show me a better interior in a GM car, and consider the handling and performance). GM deserves kudos for bringing this to market fairly quickly - something that couldn't be said of GM 3 years ago (no way we'd see this car until 2008 or 2009, at the earliest).

hammen2

"I predict the new Mustang will outsell the new GTO by a very large margin".

That's a no-brainer. The maximum number of GTO's that GM can import is 18,000. The Mustang factory can produce 150k-200k cars per year? Factor in the V6 model available for much less than the GTO, and there you go.

Once again, regarding styling. The new GTO is not supposed to look like the old one. It's not supposed to look like a Tempest or LeMans from the 60's. The original GTO formula was to take a standard car and put a really big engine in it. As rob999 said, there was little external difference between a Tempest and a GTO except for hood scoops, badging, et. al.

The new GTO is styled to resemble Pontiac's _current_ standard cars, the Grand Am/Grand Prix (I especially see a major resemblance in the GTO's front end with the previous-generation Grand Prix, which I personally prefer to the 04-newer bodystyle). The new GTO follows the same formula - looks just like a standard Pontiac, except having a big engine. Where the formula differs is that the new GTO can do more than just go fast in a straight line...

I've seen other folks lament the lack of HID lights, navigation systems, et. al. Once again, you're missing the point of this car. You want that stuff, look at a Caddy CTS-V for $15+k more. This is a Pontiac, and it's about performance, not luxury. The same philosophy drives the new Solstice roadster - keep it simple, stupid, and keep the costs down. This isn't to say I wouldn't expect to see things like a sunroof and XM Radio and OnStar available in the 2007 GTO...

--Robert

hammen2

Cruise around to some of the GTO-specific web sites, and you'll see pictures of a one-off (Orbit?) orange GTO (designed and produced by GM) that will be making the rounds of the Woodward Dream Cruise in Detroit this weekend. It has newly-styled front fascia, with true Ram-Air induction and 500 hp, plus new bodyside moldings and rear fascia/spoiler. I think those folks unhappy with the looks of the current car would be more than happy with this show car (though some folks feel it's a little over the top). Whether or not these changes are made to production vehicles, or whether this body kit is made by GM or a third-party, I don't know, but I can't see anyone looking at this particular vehicle and complaining the styling's not enough...

exzur

Simple and stupid at a higher cost. That’s why most consumers are confused as to the
real purpose of this car. At $33,495 msrp, this GTO has to offer more than plain simple and stupid.

Only 18,000 GTO or less and GM can’t move the car without giving huge discount. Something is wrong somewhere.

graphicguy

bigdaddycoats....thanks for that link. That's the first I had heard of the LS2 going into anything except the C6.

The Mustang will outsell the GTO. With all the variants it will have (6 cyl, convertible, GT...eventually, a Cobra) that's a no-brainer. The GTO is a purpose built V8 muscle car with only one model...no engine options, and for all intents and purposes, one price point.

My guess is, the Mustang will have several price points up and down the scale.

andys120

History repeats itself, the original Mustang outsold the GTO by about 20-1 but that's not a fair comparison since the majority of 'Stangs were 6-cylinder cars, many of the '05 will be as well.

I wonder how many 'Stangs will be sold in the higher performance versions-- Cobras, Mach Ones etc.

hammen2

I'm no GM apologist, but I know it costs them big $$$ to ship the car here from Australia. The 2007 will have some cost advantages, being built here, but we'll see if GM chooses to cut the price or add features - were I a betting man, I'd say the latter.

This is a real question - not being a smart-*ss - what other cars are out there that offer the GTO's level of performance (350 hp in 2004 for around $33k, 400 hp in 2005 for under $35k) and handling for the money?

I think a lot of the reasons why the car is sitting unsold on the lots include a) poor/lack of marketing, b) dealers (many who wanted $5k-$10 over sticker when the car first arrived, and refused test-drives - hello, I'm not buying a car unless I drive it first and see if I like it (was finally able to test-drive in July), c) news of the 2005 with its HP increases, and d) styling (again, lots of folks didn't like the looks of the car, and knew the '05s would have hood scoops).

--Robert

rob999

hammen2 -

I think you're right. I'll wager a lot of people were at first put-off by dealers' attempts to price-gouge on the car and now customers are just waiting for the improved 2005 model, so the 2004's are just sitting. Time will tell.

exzur

I had seen a lot of GTO TV advertisements, At one point I was annoyed seeing 4 to 5 pages of GTO ads in car magazines, I don’t think poor/lack of marketing, etsetera is the reason why too many GTOs are sitting unsold on the lots.

Ford spent more time and money redesigning the Mustang almost from the ground up. GM want to make quick bucks resurrecting the GTO by rebadging an existing Australian car. Should be ok had GM followed the keep plain, simple and keep the cost down.

Why too many GTOs sitting unsold on the lots? Because the cost is to high for the looks of the car.

exzur

Who would pay 35 grand for a cavalier on steroids???

nb2169

You may feel the vehicle is barf on wheels. However, I feel that European design is barf on wheels, and I am tired of Euro-boxes being shoved down my throat. It is time for American manufacturers to start taking some risks and get back to making American designs. All we have got to show for following European design is less car and fewer choices for the money. The link I posted was for the purpose of showing a concept that I liked. I don't care if it was made of styrofoam. The concept had a far more muscular and aggressive look than the Holden based GTO. In my book, if I am paying for a performance vehicle, I feel it should look like one.

hammen2

For those who confuse the current GTO with a Cavalier, does this meet with your approval?

exzur

I think, if you add those hood scoops,flares, etc. to a Cavalier or Alero coupe, the looks would not be different

graphicguy

Sounds like a case of GTO envy......

exzur

Quote: “I think a lot of the reasons why the car is sitting unsold on the lots include a) poor/lack of marketing, b) dealers (many who wanted $5k-$10 over sticker when the car first arrived, and refused test-drives - hello, I'm not buying a car unless I drive it first and see if I like it (was finally able to test-drive in July), c) news of the 2005 with its HP increases, and d) styling (again, lots of folks didn't like the looks of the car, and knew the '05s would have hood scoops).”

IMHO, the above pharagraph is not the reason why too many GTOs are sitting unsold on the lots.

The cavalier lookalike body is not where the Corvette powertrain is to be. Again, the looks of the GTO is the culprit, In My Honest Opinion(IMHO).

sphinx99

Or maybe, just maybe, it's not selling for ALL of these reasons.

midwesttrader

No it does not. This concept screams RICER to me, although a little less height on the rear spoiler and its shape isn't too bad.

I like the '05 scoops. In addition I'd like to see a little more flare in the wheel openings, and some other element(s) to set it off from the other cookie cutter GM cars mentioned.

A big problem with the GTO is that anyone that is willing to forgo some HP for features (i.e. sunroof, climate control, heated seats, XM radio, etc.) at this price point will just go elsewhere.

exzur

I know, for a fact, GM has spent the money advertisng the GTO. I have seen the ads on tv. The four to five pages GTO ads in car magazines, among this “Fuel for the soul”
ploy. I can strike out “poor/lack of marketing” as the reason.

If there were potential buyers who where turned off by these “ “ dealers (many who wanted $5k-$10 over sticker when the car first arrived, and refused test-drives - hello, I'm not buying a car unless I drive it first and see if I like it (was finally able to test-drive in July), c) news of the 2005 with its HP increases, and d) styling (again, lots of folks didn't like the looks of the car, and knew the '05s would have hood scoops””, you can count them on your fingers.

That leave us to, You know what I mean.

ocmike3

I expect that the remaining 2004's will get some discounts and incentives to move them out. Even with the upgrades I wouldn't expect Pontiac to raise the price of the 2005 much. I'd love to get an Impulse Blue w/6 speed; but my leash is too short. (i.e. not practical enough for the wife and the trunk is too small for a weekend for 3 of us.)
Local dealers here moved their first few GTOs out pretty quick but the ones they have now have been sitting for weeks/months. (mostly automatics)

exalteddragon1

hammen2 That's what the GTO sould look like IN THE SHOWROOM!

And BTW, I never liked twin hood-scoops before, but THOSE twin scoops look awsome and let me tell you, if the GTO you showed in these pictures was selling now, it would fly out of the showrooms even with austrailian spec 340hp.

GM, TAKE THOSE WHEELS AND STICK YOUR DAM LOGO ON 'EM, TAKE THOSE SCOOPS, AND LOWER THE BUMBERS LIKE THAT, AND PONTIAC IS BACK! DO IT YOU PANSY!

Sorry, its just that these GTO pics show a complete turnaround in the way the car looks. Oh screw the Xenon headlapms, I could buy my own pair. If GM sells this in dealerships we will all be GTO owners.

andys120

Actually that's just about the right blend of aggressiveness and balance in the styling IMO. The scoops are tastefully done and setting the grilles into the bodywork works great.

I'm not crazy about the color and the rear needs work but overall I'd say that's a significant improvement if it presages future Goats (v.1.1?)

midwesttrader

From a dealer ad in the weekend St Louis Post-Dispatch: MSRP - 2000 (GMAC) - 1000 (owner loyalty) - 750 (military) - dealer discount = $27,825. Probably for an auto but it doesn't specify.

This is the same store that sang the "how much are you willing to pay" song for me the last time I was there.

Mr_Shiftright

Hi midwest---just a heads up here...the term "ricer" is derived from an ethnic slur and while I'm sure this was not your intent, we don't use this term in Town Hall, or any derivatives, like "[non-permissible content removed]", etc. If you have any questions, e-mail me!

thank you

HOST

exzur

Here, in the Buffalo, NY area, for the last several weeks, I have read the Sunday Buffalo newspaper ads of $4,000 to $5,000 GTO discount. The last time I passed by, David Pontiac in Niagara Falls has three GTOs, two manuals, one auto. Don Davis Pontiac in Amherst has six GTOs.

felbie

I am looking to lease on as well, what deal did you get?