Also, does anyone think that the sport appearance package would be worth the $3K? I'm looking into getting a Black 05 in the next few months. Thanks a lot.
I've seen it and it looks good but you'll want to do some negotiating, there must be a $2000 profit built into that price.
I guess what I would like to know is what you paid extra to get into the '05 or how much your payment went up. Or conversely, how much money you lost on the '04. I think because I'm leasing it's more of a problem. I may have to buy it just so I can sell it...
Going back to an earlier post of yours, you don't know what restraint is. Restraint is when you have someone else's '05 with 17 miles on it and don't thrash it.
I'am a GM employee and my 05 should be here next weekend I got the automatic which goes for $34,295 and my cost is only $28,979 and I'am putting 6k down cant wait to get it hope this helps bye.
Did you guys hear that the new Pontiac GTO will race (mid season) in the Grand-Am Rolex Series? It will have a 440 hp LS2 with dry-sump lubrication (like the new Corvette Z06) and it will race against Porsche 911s and BMW M3s. I hope they win!
But are they competing in the Rolex series (with DP class for the Prototypes and the GT class which is dominated by the Porsche GT3 Cup cars with some Ferrari 360 Stradales thrown in for good measure) or would they be competing in the Grand Am Cup series (where Mustangs placed 1st/2nd in the first race, 3rd behind a pair of M3's in the second race, and 1st in the third race against BMW M3's, Porsche 996's and a few Cadillac CTS-V's)
BTW - the 'new' Corvette ZO6 doesn't have a dry-sump LS2; it will have a 427 (actually 428 ci displacement but that sounds too much like a Ford displacement so GM refers to it as a 427) based on the LS2 which should be pushing out in the neighborhood of 500hp.
I meant to say that the 2006 Corvette Z06 will have dry-sump lubrication. That LS7 is awesome!
The Pontiac GTO is scheduled to debut in Sahlen's Six Hours of The Glen race on June 12 in the Grand American Rolex Sports car series so it would race against Porsche GT3 Cup cars
Here is the 2005 GTO which has larger brakes, 400 hp LS2, a new power steering pump, and some other stuff.
thanks...... do you know what is availabble for a 2005 GTO.? what is meant by a more aggresive tune? will i be able to drive it in traffic? is this usually done at dyno shops?? how about the K/N air induction systems???? what is "maf"? do you know about it for street use....thanks again...michael
In late December. GM has had such great sales success in December/ thinks it's such a great idea to introduce a RWD sports coupe to the whole country at the start of wintertime, when 50% of the people really don't want to be driving a RWD car with poor stock tires.
Have they released anything? price? pictures? specs?
Nope. Don't expect to see that info until August or so. Holden will build the '05 until sometime in June (I believe the order cutoff has passed - you can't order a new '05 any longer). They'll start building '06's in July and be done by December, as the plant converts over to build Zeta-based RWD vehicles that we won't see here in the U.S. (except for maybe a big Holden Statesman rebadged as a Buick). I wouldn't expect to see much different on the outside. Inside they may add some of the "creature comfort" features the Aussies get, but that's probably about it (maybe a slight HP boost - rumor has it the 2006 CTS-V will get a 415 hp LS2). Pricing will probably go up, seeing as how they'll probably only make 10-12k 2006's before the line is done...
Sales of the new GTO, while not what they were expected to be, have improved since the car went on sale. The new Mustang, available with a V-6, a V-8, coupe, or convertible has obviously outsold the new GTO, only available with a V-8 and coupe body.
1,375 GTOs were sold last month vs 719 the same month last year, an 84.2 % improvement. 3,261 GTOs have been sold year-to-date vs. 1,801 of a year ago, an 81.1 % improvement.
First of all, the convertible stang has not gone on sale yet. Second, while GTO sales have improved over last year (when they were terrible until September), don't get carried away with GM's big percentage increases. A significant (30%?) number of sales during '05 have been leftover '04s. There are still hundreds of '04s for sale right now.
Comparing new '04 to new '05 sales for March they sold about 35% more cars not 84%. That among other reasons is why this car is dead after '06.
Has GM announced the plug will be pulled after the 06 model, or is that speculation?
Whether you accept the + 84% for sales or creatively adjust it to + 34% the increase is very impressive.
I consider the 84% to be quite legitimate. All brands report sales of the previous year models with the current year. Mustang sales for Jan-Mar were not all the new body style.
"Whether you accept the + 84% for sales or creatively adjust it to + 34% the increase is very impressive."
Not really. If only 719 '04 GTO's were sold in March '04, then a 34% increase for sales of '05 models in March '05 would be only about 964 '05 models. That's an increase of only 245 cars. I wonder what a 34% increase in Mustang sales would be?
Massage the sales numbers for the GTO all you want; bottom line is the GTO has not sold as well as GM had hoped and anticipated. The Mustang has sold better than Ford hoped and anticipated. Yes, the sales numbers for the GTO are up over last year. But the infamous Lutz memo is still out there which effectively signals the end of the GTO after the '06 model.
The convertible V6 stangs started to hit the lots within the last couple of weeks, not sure about the V8s. Don't really care as I wouldn't buy one anyway. Just not a Ford man.
Robert - I read elsewhere that your replacement GTO is having a drivetrain issue. What's up with that?
GM has not officially said anything about the 2006 being the last model year for the GTO.
It is a known fact that 2006 will represent the last year it appears on the current chassis. Three facts:
1) Holden will be ramping up to build Zeta cars. There's presently no plans or room to build coupes (the next-gen Monaro, like the next-gen GTO, was to be built here), but with Zeta being shelved for North America, Holden is making noise about building it there - but no concrete plans yet.
2) The original contract for the GTO was for 3 model years. The value of the U.S. dollar versus the Australian dollar is much lower - I don't think GM makes much, if anything, on importing the GTO's to the U.S. for sale.
3) For MY2007 the current car won't meet U.S. crash/impact standards. This was posted by a GTO program insider on a GTO-specific message board I also read.
What GMNA does with the GTO is depending on how the company goes, I think. Right now they are trying to find a suitable RWD platform that could be the basis of a next-gen GTO. If they do that, we could see a car in 2008 or 2009. There's also a good chance a next-gen could be killed. No one really knows right now what the future is...
Midwesttrader, didn't someone on "that other site" claim to have seen a GT convertible at his buddies' detail shop?
Yes, I do have a potential issue with the rear differential on my replacement '04. If I'm going 45 or faster and I let off the gas, the rear differential whines somewhat. I called my dealer and emailed the former Brand Quality Manager of the GTO at GM, and they both indicated that there was no adjustments to be made/was nothing they could do to adjust the backlash. So, it's live with it, or get the rear end replaced. Right now it's not too loud, so I can live with it; if it gets worse, I'll have them put a new rear end in. This has happened to not only a bunch of new GTO owners (one friend of mine went through 3 rear ends before trading his GTO in on a Magnum - but he had modified the heck out of his car), but is also happening on the CTS-V, for example (and they don't use the same Dana rear end).
Other than that, and the paint coming off one of the speaker grilles on the rear shelf, my replacement car seems much more solid than the first '04 I bought last August. I think this has a lot to do with the fact that I made sure the tire pressures were lowered to 35 psi (from the shipping 60) and that the spring compressors (suspension packing materials) were removed BEFORE they dealer-traded for the car. I drove my first car around with 60 pounds of air in the tires for a good week and 500+ miles, with all kinds of creaking/squeaking noises from the suspension (probably indicating the spring compressors were still in there). The GTO's ride is firm but my first car rode like a truck, with the rear end banging against the chassis, especially on concrete roadways. New car is a lot more enjoyable, though I've been keeping it in the garage (274 miles on it, pulled it out of storage last Friday with 42 on it) so I can come home and put multiple coats of Zaino on it (paint is much better than my first car, very few blemishes/touch up spots)... will probably be my daily driver starting next week, once I get at least 12 coats on it. I'll post some pictures here...
IMO, zaino is a way to spend extra money for cheap wax.
That is one opinion, and it's not one that I share. Zaino is a polymer, not a wax, and it provides, in my opinion, the best shine and paint protection that you can get. People who try Zaino usually rave about it, which makes others suspicious of the "Zaino Zealotry".
I first heard about it here on Edmunds almost 4 years ago. Since then, I've been using it on my cars as well as my wife's. For the first time since last December, I just hand-washed my '98 Aurora in 15 minutes in the dark Tuesday night - was absolutely amazing looking in the sunlight on Wednesday morning (looked like a new car, not an almost 8 year old one that just went through a snowy winter) When we ended up trading my wife's GTP in, it got absolute top dollar because the car was completely detailed inside and out and absolutely "glowing". Dealership inspected it and put it right out on their lot (no prep work needed), and the car was gone within 5 days.
Go to http://www.zainostore.com and look at the pictures and the testimonials. There is, as I mentioned above, a Zaino discussion here on Edmunds, if you want to discuss the product further.
Disclaimer: I'm just a user of the product, and am not involved with its sales, distribution, or profit (except that I contribute a few hundred dollars a year toward their sales and profit - but that's detailing my own, my family's, and friends/co-workers' vehicles with Zaino).
I tried zaino myself. I didn't seem to get the results people were describing. So, i tried a test. I did 1/2 of my hood with zaino, following all the directions & steps, and did the the other 1/2 with regular cheap $4 meguiars wax. I did this for quite some time. There was no difference. I asked numerous car buffs to try to tell me if 1/2 of the hood looked better. No one could tell them apart. According to the suspiciously similar sounding "testimonials" on the web, dust should have been hovering off of 1/2 of my hood.
If anyone does buy it, try a test like this. I think you well end up feeling, like me, that you got suckered out of some money.
I was surprised at how well they are selling. Now don't go telling me how many Mustangs are selling. We are only talking about a total of 12K GTOs. Limiting production to 12K units seems to be helping and the 400hp is probably drawing in a few more buyers. I was hoping sales would be flat like last year so I could upgrade to an '05. Now it looks like I'll be paying more. Dang!
Everyone has their own preferences. Some have good experiences with a certain product and others might not. It might depend on the type of paint it goes on. My personal experience? I haven't washed my '98 GTP once since I bought it. After a rain I wipe it down with clean towels, top to bottom, door jams, under the hood, and under the trunk lid. The car is as shiny as the day I bought it. And I've seen cars with year old paint that is faded. So you just never know. Maybe I got lucky...
I totally agree with your last comment--"just go and buy a GTO and stop messing around. The grin when you drive it will be worth it." I picked mine up last weekend. I live in the Bay Area and took it for a run on the coast highway and then "cruised" over to Reno a couple of days later. The GTO handles all conditions of driving with style. I went with the 6 speed manual and the Trimec shifter ..it's super-- short throws.. just a joy to drive. The car handles the backroads, interstate and bumper to bumper with ease. Since they aren't selling like the Mustang Gt there are deals to be made with the dealers and for a grand or two more to finance you definately get a great car. ps: I've was a die hard Ford man for 35 years..go GM!!!
click on Pontiac, then GTO. At some point there is a pop-up that defaults to 2005 - but you can click on it and select 2004.
Be aware most of the 900-some odd '05's left are mostly A4 cars. Expect to pay invoice price less the $5k buyout less any current incentives (i.e. last month was $1k March Madness on cars older than 120 days on the lot - I know there's $1k on the '05's but don't know if this applies to the '04's).
I agree with dragon that edmunds is currently an enlightening facilitator of we who are interested in this kind of stuff and take the time to post our 2 cents. But it is not edmunds who creates the interesting forum, it is us: once we stop posting our stuff this forum will die, at least for many of us, because we will stop visiting this site.
Sputterguy's post regarding his communication with an editor of edmunds is not encouraging. The editor seems to exhibit the same detached arrogant, elitist view of us readers that brought down Dan Rather and Bill Moyers (if you're up on big media bias you know about that). That's okay: edmunds can be replaced, and we'll go elsewhere for objective appraisals of cars. We will dispense our genius, captivating opinions elsewhere.
Some sites just don't understand that their success is absolutely and intimately wedded to we readers' perception of how honest they are when they write stuff for us to read. If they blow the honesty thing they are past history, like Rather and Moyers.
Regarding "made in USA", I'm not totally with you on that, dragon. The reason (at least a major reason) the company I worked for (26 years) went bankrupt in 1991 (Pan Am Airlines) was because of Tony Soprano-type unions, where baggage guys were making $40,000 a year (in the 80's). I won't spend more money for an inferior product just to support corrupt USA unions. The president of my union, the Airline Pilot's Association, was making over $400,000 a year, plus benefits, when Pan Am went bankrupt -- that was 15 years ago. I don't want to buy a Mustang because it's not built with the same care that the Australian goat is. I really wanted to buy American, but the Mustang is just too tacky when compared to the Australian goat or German products.
My wife and I are going to climb Mt. Washington this summer (the highest terrain on the east coast). We did that once already, with my Audi A6turbo. It was cool, because going downhill, when most cars had to stop every mile to cool their brakes, I just kept my A6 in 1st and glided down (noiselessly, like a polite metroman), not even touching the brakes. This year it'll be the goat in 1st gear, with over 5,000 feet of vertical decent, me listening to my LS2's throbbing, rapping protests: Hey, I don't like this coasting crap -- push me! Let me go! My wife thinks we're doing this trip to see beautiful nature.
My son purchased a 2005 GTO 6.0 L 6-speed manual 2 weeks ago. It has already been, and is currently back, at the dealership with a problem. Battery is dead for the second time. They cannot seem to find the problem. Computer test shows weak battery and they charged it the first time. Four days passed and it was in again with the same problem. All the obvious causes have been eliminated such as lights on, key left in the ignition etc. The dealership is stumped and very reluctant to install a new battery because it has been in twice and possible "lemon law" situation will kick in if they do not remedy the problem. In Florida it is three strikes and your out! They checked national service bulletins and found one that deals with a "male-female" wiring harness that has caused a problem in another GTO where there was tension on this particular harness and it caused the car not to start. DOES ANYONE OUT THERE KNOW OF A SIMILAR CIRCUMSTANCE? HELP! My son is really upset and has no faith in the dealership finding the problem. It is his first new car purchase and he has only driven the car a few times.
Pretty likely to be the battery. I know of several '04's who have had this problem. When the first shipload of cars came over from Oz, the keys were left in the ignition, causing a parasitic drain which wiped out the batteries - had to jump every car to get them off the boat (and most of them didn't recover). Dead batteries have been a chronic issue on '04's - many of the cars sitting on dealer lots for awhile have had this issue. Haven't heard of it on the '05's but they've only been arriving on dealer lots in the past 90 days, so it's early.
My replacement car's battery was leaking (and then I dropped it, ouch!). Put in an Optima Red Top (p/n RED-34R - you need the R model to have the battery posts the correct way) - got it from a friend of a friend (battery truck delivery driver) for $80, expect to pay $130 or so for it retail.
It is possible there's some kind of wiring fault which is causing this. They should have replaced the battery the second time. If the dealership is that concerned about lemon law, propose this to them. Have them agree to reimburse you for buying an Optima yourself - then go do that. If it fixes the problem, you never have to worry about the replacment Delco going bad. If it dies too, then you know the problem lies elsewhere, and they try to fix it (have them contact Kobie Glenn at GM - he's the GTO Brand Quality Manager and can ensure they know how to troubleshoot the problem).
Replacing the battery themselves can be kind of a sticky situation. If the Optima dies (and it would take some drain for it to die), the dealer can turn around and state the owner did something when pulling the old one out/putting the new one end.
I do agree that the dealer should have replaced the battery the second time. Knowing some about battery (did a long stint with a battery manufacturer) once a battery get drain to a dead condition, many times it's shot. Also, the battery could have a dead cell condition, funky electrolyte level, bent plate or connector, or a parasitic drain/leak. The dealer, at a minimum, should have done a battery load test, drain test, charge state test while car is running / off. Many times the dealer will just hit the battery with a booster to get the car started and let it run 5 - 10 minutes to let the charging system charge up the battery. Doesn't work too well. The car obviously has a drain somewhere, either through the electrical system or the battery itself or a combo.
I'd take the car back and leave it until they fix it correctly. The son paid too much money to accept this.
I found the new GTO a bit of disappointment (sorry). I really liked the older ones like "the judge", that was cool. And when I heard that pontiac was bringing it back I got really exited. but when I saw it I thought: this isn't what its supposed to look like. I really hope they change the body styling on it.
I think you misunderstood me cason, we are on the same page with Unions.
The Union method of employment in the USA is one of the main reasons for the Dounfall of US manufacturing. Unions, and there political friends to the left, heckle companies untill they agree to insane pensions and salaries, making it impossible to fire people and increasing costs to the point where the company dies and the union worker loses his job.
This is happenning in the auto, airline, and in the 80's it happenned with clothing. It is just impossible to compete with a lower cost company. Toyota makes more omney selling camry's than GM makes on its SUV's (just look at the financials) because they have lower labor costs.
The GTO is an awesome car, and one of the reasons is, it was not make with the UAW. It is insame, GM is insuring people who don't even work for the company. Meanwhile, toyta developed hybrid technology and is looking into avaiation, while bieng the worlds number 1 automaker in about eight years.
We need to reform the way employment is done in America, or else the only cars we will choose from will be japanese and european, our cloths made in china, and our lives subject and wholly owned by a foreign nation.
I support the "buy American" philosophy beause unless we do, we will all be out of a job. However, people didn't buy American because it was American, they bought it because it was better. In many of todays industries, it is all about cost. Get the costs down and American will be better again.
It's comming around, but the union must go or else GM will be backrupt and the GTO badge will be sold to toyota by angry credators. :surprise:
Great idea - break the Unions, bring pay and working conditions down to Korean levels, oh, and increase quality while you're doing it. Uh huh, and I'm sure you'll be first in line for one of those jobs.
IMHO, it's not the workforce that's the problem with domestic autos - it's shoddy design and lazy product development. Using the same interior parts, (radios, steering wheels, dash displays, etc), across low-end and premium targeted vehicles. Designing new cars that handle and ride fairly well, (Ford 500, etc), and slapping wheezy, 10+ yr old engines in them. It's what a buddy of mine calls dumb-$hittery. Could also be called a disdain for the customer - designing to minimum acceptable levels instead of maximum quality/performance. I have a 2004 GTO, and I love it - except for the trunk which is a prime example of going for the easy solution instead of the best one. The car was built by union workers in Australia - but also designed there by a team that was interested in the overall quality of the package. The interior is great, the seats are great, the finish is good, and of course it goes like stink!
I hate how GM's marketing dept. has basically let the GOT die a quick death by not advertising anywhere. I just saw a Pontiac commercial last night (great music, pumped up graphics) and they are pumping up the new Solstice like it's a racecar....then they show the G6 and the G6 sedan! No mention or even clip of the GTO. Oh well - I'm actually hoping they kill this car off just so it will become even more rare to have one - and I plan on buying an '05 later this year or an '06 if they don't change the body much. Too bad more people can't get over the "it's not a GTO" factor. Yeah, maybe that's true, but I'm not even 30 yet...so I never had one in the first place. But I can get one now!!!
Does anybody know if getting replacement parts on this car will be a problem if they discontinue the line? I know automakers need to carry parts for like up to 10 years after the car is made...but since this car is manufactured overseas in "G-day mate" land...will that come into play? :confuse:
Also, I noticed there's a lot of ranting and raving that Edmunds hasn't reviewed the new GTO yet from the lucky Goat owners here on the forum. But how come YOU GUYS haven't gone in and done any consumer reviews!!! Help the GTO out, the Editor's rating has fallen to 7.8 - that's garbage! It'd be good to hear both the positive and negative views of '05 owners. :shades:
The LS1/LS2 engines are made in Canada (shipped to Oz, installed, shipped back to the U.S.). I believe the manual tranny is made in Mexico; don't know about the auto. I wouldn't worry about these items. It's more of the unique parts (like interior pieces/differential) that will be problematic.
Olds is gone and my dealer has no issues getting parts for my Aurora (Caddy drivetrain, G-body chassis same as Caddies, Buicks, and Pontiacs). There have been some issues getting parts across the water, but this situation seems improved over last year.
Long-term, companies like JHP and CAPA sell Aussie parts and wheels to U.S. buyers now (I bought the Commodore SS mudflaps from JHP). I would imagine that would continue. Thank goodness for the "connectivity" of the Internet, plus air freight :-)
Bottom line is, if you're going to use this car as your daily driver for the next 5-7 years, I wouldn't worry. You'll have more issues finding a competent GM service department than you will in finding the parts, if my experience is the norm :-)
I don't see how unions can be "the problem." We're getting killed in automotive design by countries with stroger unions, BIGGER pension plans and better wages ( japan, germany, sweden, AUSTRALIA etc ).
Last summer I had a dead battery one morning. I jumped it and it was fine for a couple of months and then it died again. At that point I took it to the dealer and thankfully when they tested it it wouldn't hold a charge. So they replaced it. End of story.
You shouldn't have to keep taking the car in and wasting your time while they troubleshoot the car. Have them REPLACE THE BATTERY! It's under warranty. That's the least they can do and you shouldn't settle for less.
That's taking a simplistic view of unions. I agree they are a problem but have you forgotten greedy corporate executives. They have gotten rid of thousands of American workers, good workers, just to increase profits. All the while earning bonuses of $millions.
Japanese workers make as much or more than American workers. And yes, they outsource jobs to China. One problem they don't have there is 20 million undocumented aliens. Or thousands of legal immigrants arriving all the time. Maybe that's the answer, drive down wages and then maybe we can compete with that Chinese worker that makes a buck an hour and no benefits. But at those wages your not likely to be buying a new Mustang or GTO or computer or TV or even a car magazine. I know that's a bit extreme but that's the direction we are headed. Disclaimer: I am not in a union. But I have been downsized
Europeans must spend a much greater percentage of their income on living necessities -- and they still don't have it as good as we do, by most measures: fewer cars per family; less living space per person; higher percent of income spent on food and clothes; longer waits for inferior medical care; on and on. If gas goes to $6 a gallon here even I might consider driving a little crappy car like the great majority of Europeans are forced to do (thanks to Big Brother) . Germany and France has an unemployment rate double ours (translation: higher taxes to support them). And, as with all socialist systems, all unions (including US) are the biggest socialist boosters of all (which is why they never, ever support Republicans).
Guarantee you this: European union auto workers -- even with the higher numbers in benefits and wages -- have a much lower living standard than UAW guys. It sounds like dhanley's union is in contract negotiations, judging from the whining: They have it better! Well, they don't, and I've got a hunch he knows that.
Why does the Mustang look shoddy compared to the GTO? Hard to say, but it sure isn't because the union guys here don't make enough per hour. It's my guess that Germans, Japanese and, apparently, Aussies, have more discipline in everything they do -- a cultural thing.
1200 trouble-free miles on my '05 and lovin it. Finally: even the inside of the exhaust pipes take a nice polish.
Nope, I was an airline pilot, making about $150,000 a year plus very good benefits, all thanks to my union, ALPA . That's why I can, and will, be able to afford GTO's in the future. Were there a gazillion pilots who would have done the job I did for a fraction of what I was getting? You bet! That should be significant to any thoughtful person. Oh, by the way, Pan Am went bankrupt. I was just one of the lucky ones hired on at the right time.
Another BTW: union membership has been down (less than 17%) for many years because most most workers have educated themselves on the history of unions and their impact on free enterprise: check it out.
OK, the discussion has derailed too far off topic. If you want to talk GM and Unions, please find an appropriate discussion in our News & Views message board.
This discussion will be solely on the GTO - mechanics, features, etc.
For most of us owners of modern GTO's the question as to why this excellent product has been trashed or ignored by the entire media (even Blockbuster Videw still doesn't have The Last Drive, which highlights the '04 GTO -- it was released Dec. 21), is one that needs answering. I'll wager that most of the News and Views posters have no first hand experience with the '04 or '05 GTO.
I liked the Monaro when it came out (first heard about it here on Edmunds, browsed Holden's web site, had to wipe the drool off my keyboard). Never thought I'd have an opportunity to get one. Fast forward to Lutz starting at GM, going to Oz, seeing and driving the Monaro, and pushing heavily to get it here as the GTO. Still never thought I'd own one.
Sat in one extensively when they first came out - liked it a lot - but didn't think I could swing it at 33k, wasn't sure I wanted to drive one in winter. Fast forward to July when incentives came out. I had been shopping GM cars for a couple of months - was pretty unhappy with the Bonnie GXP, wife already had an '01 GTP and I didn't care for the '04. Took one test drive and I was HOOKED. All I could think about was getting one. Knew I could wait (didn't NEED another car), so I did. Not long. Bit when the incentives jumped in late August/early September.
I think it's one of the best cars GM sells in North America. To see it trashed or ignored or branded a failure in the media, really PO's me. 99% of those folks have never sat in the car, much less driven one. Take the Pontiac badges and wing off, put a Monaro (non-Pontiac) nose on it, and let critics test-drive the car, and they'd rave about it.
My story mirrors yours in many ways. And I agree with your last paragraph, too. When my SmartBuy is up in Sept 06, I'll either look for a used 05 (improved brakes and I love the cyclone gray) or, if they make significant changes to the 06 (unlikely) like adding the Monaro HVAC or 6-speed auto, I'll try to swing that. Point is, I was excited when I heard the Monaro was coming to the U.S.; could care less what they call it. I call it as close to perfect fit for me as I ever expect to find.
Comments
Thanks a lot.
I've seen it and it looks good but you'll want to do some negotiating, there must be a $2000 profit built into that price.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Going back to an earlier post of yours, you don't know what restraint is. Restraint is when you have someone else's '05 with 17 miles on it and don't thrash it.
But are they competing in the Rolex series (with DP class for the Prototypes and the GT class which is dominated by the Porsche GT3 Cup cars with some Ferrari 360 Stradales thrown in for good measure) or would they be competing in the Grand Am Cup series (where Mustangs placed 1st/2nd in the first race, 3rd behind a pair of M3's in the second race, and 1st in the third race against BMW M3's, Porsche 996's and a few Cadillac CTS-V's)
BTW - the 'new' Corvette ZO6 doesn't have a dry-sump LS2; it will have a 427 (actually 428 ci displacement but that sounds too much like a Ford displacement so GM refers to it as a 427) based on the LS2 which should be pushing out in the neighborhood of 500hp.
The Pontiac GTO is scheduled to debut in Sahlen's Six Hours of The Glen race on June 12 in the Grand American Rolex Sports car series so it would race against Porsche GT3 Cup cars
Here is the 2005 GTO which has larger brakes, 400 hp LS2, a new power steering pump, and some other stuff.
In late December. GM has had such great sales success in December/ thinks it's such a great idea to introduce a RWD sports coupe to the whole country at the start of wintertime, when 50% of the people really don't want to be driving a RWD car with poor stock tires.
Have they released anything? price? pictures? specs?
Nope. Don't expect to see that info until August or so. Holden will build the '05 until sometime in June (I believe the order cutoff has passed - you can't order a new '05 any longer). They'll start building '06's in July and be done by December, as the plant converts over to build Zeta-based RWD vehicles that we won't see here in the U.S. (except for maybe a big Holden Statesman rebadged as a Buick). I wouldn't expect to see much different on the outside. Inside they may add some of the "creature comfort" features the Aussies get, but that's probably about it (maybe a slight HP boost - rumor has it the 2006 CTS-V will get a 415 hp LS2). Pricing will probably go up, seeing as how they'll probably only make 10-12k 2006's before the line is done...
--Robert
1,375 GTOs were sold last month vs 719 the same month last year, an 84.2 % improvement. 3,261 GTOs have been sold year-to-date vs. 1,801 of a year ago, an 81.1 % improvement.
Notice post #2681 - no mention made of the sales increases. Just 'not a bad month' and 'how many were 04 models at $6k off MSRP'.
+ 81.1% - that is impressive on any company's sales ledger!
First of all, the convertible stang has not gone on sale yet. Second, while GTO sales have improved over last year (when they were terrible until September), don't get carried away with GM's big percentage increases. A significant (30%?) number of sales during '05 have been leftover '04s. There are still hundreds of '04s for sale right now.
Comparing new '04 to new '05 sales for March they sold about 35% more cars not 84%. That among other reasons is why this car is dead after '06.
Has GM announced the plug will be pulled after the 06 model, or is that speculation?
Whether you accept the + 84% for sales or creatively adjust it to + 34% the increase is very impressive.
I consider the 84% to be quite legitimate. All brands report sales of the previous year models with the current year. Mustang sales for Jan-Mar were not all the new body style.
Not really. If only 719 '04 GTO's were sold in March '04, then a 34% increase for sales of '05 models in March '05 would be only about 964 '05 models. That's an increase of only 245 cars. I wonder what a 34% increase in Mustang sales would be?
Massage the sales numbers for the GTO all you want; bottom line is the GTO has not sold as well as GM had hoped and anticipated. The Mustang has sold better than Ford hoped and anticipated. Yes, the sales numbers for the GTO are up over last year. But the infamous Lutz memo is still out there which effectively signals the end of the GTO after the '06 model.
Robert - I read elsewhere that your replacement GTO is having a drivetrain issue. What's up with that?
It is a known fact that 2006 will represent the last year it appears on the current chassis. Three facts:
1) Holden will be ramping up to build Zeta cars. There's presently no plans or room to build coupes (the next-gen Monaro, like the next-gen GTO, was to be built here), but with Zeta being shelved for North America, Holden is making noise about building it there - but no concrete plans yet.
2) The original contract for the GTO was for 3 model years. The value of the U.S. dollar versus the Australian dollar is much lower - I don't think GM makes much, if anything, on importing the GTO's to the U.S. for sale.
3) For MY2007 the current car won't meet U.S. crash/impact standards. This was posted by a GTO program insider on a GTO-specific message board I also read.
What GMNA does with the GTO is depending on how the company goes, I think. Right now they are trying to find a suitable RWD platform that could be the basis of a next-gen GTO. If they do that, we could see a car in 2008 or 2009. There's also a good chance a next-gen could be killed. No one really knows right now what the future is...
--Robert
Yes, I do have a potential issue with the rear differential on my replacement '04. If I'm going 45 or faster and I let off the gas, the rear differential whines somewhat. I called my dealer and emailed the former Brand Quality Manager of the GTO at GM, and they both indicated that there was no adjustments to be made/was nothing they could do to adjust the backlash. So, it's live with it, or get the rear end replaced. Right now it's not too loud, so I can live with it; if it gets worse, I'll have them put a new rear end in. This has happened to not only a bunch of new GTO owners (one friend of mine went through 3 rear ends before trading his GTO in on a Magnum - but he had modified the heck out of his car), but is also happening on the CTS-V, for example (and they don't use the same Dana rear end).
Other than that, and the paint coming off one of the speaker grilles on the rear shelf, my replacement car seems much more solid than the first '04 I bought last August. I think this has a lot to do with the fact that I made sure the tire pressures were lowered to 35 psi (from the shipping 60) and that the spring compressors (suspension packing materials) were removed BEFORE they dealer-traded for the car. I drove my first car around with 60 pounds of air in the tires for a good week and 500+ miles, with all kinds of creaking/squeaking noises from the suspension (probably indicating the spring compressors were still in there). The GTO's ride is firm but my first car rode like a truck, with the rear end banging against the chassis, especially on concrete roadways. New car is a lot more enjoyable, though I've been keeping it in the garage (274 miles on it, pulled it out of storage last Friday with 42 on it) so I can come home and put multiple coats of Zaino on it (paint is much better than my first car, very few blemishes/touch up spots)... will probably be my daily driver starting next week, once I get at least 12 coats on it. I'll post some pictures here...
--Robert
You probably guessed this was coming but can you discuss what Zaino is? Benefits? Can you apply it to a 5year old car?
That is one opinion, and it's not one that I share. Zaino is a polymer, not a wax, and it provides, in my opinion, the best shine and paint protection that you can get. People who try Zaino usually rave about it, which makes others suspicious of the "Zaino Zealotry".
I first heard about it here on Edmunds almost 4 years ago. Since then, I've been using it on my cars as well as my wife's. For the first time since last December, I just hand-washed my '98 Aurora in 15 minutes in the dark Tuesday night - was absolutely amazing looking in the sunlight on Wednesday morning (looked like a new car, not an almost 8 year old one that just went through a snowy winter) When we ended up trading my wife's GTP in, it got absolute top dollar because the car was completely detailed inside and out and absolutely "glowing". Dealership inspected it and put it right out on their lot (no prep work needed), and the car was gone within 5 days.
Go to http://www.zainostore.com and look at the pictures and the testimonials. There is, as I mentioned above, a Zaino discussion here on Edmunds, if you want to discuss the product further.
Disclaimer: I'm just a user of the product, and am not involved with its sales, distribution, or profit (except that I contribute a few hundred dollars a year toward their sales and profit - but that's detailing my own, my family's, and friends/co-workers' vehicles with Zaino).
--Robert
If anyone does buy it, try a test like this. I think you well end up feeling, like me, that you got suckered out of some money.
I went with the 6 speed manual and the Trimec shifter ..it's super-- short throws.. just a joy to drive. The car handles the backroads, interstate and bumper to bumper with ease. Since they aren't selling like the Mustang Gt there are deals to be made with the dealers and for a grand or two more to finance you definately get a great car.
ps: I've was a die hard Ford man for 35 years..go GM!!!
click on Pontiac, then GTO. At some point there is a pop-up that defaults to 2005 - but you can click on it and select 2004.
Be aware most of the 900-some odd '05's left are mostly A4 cars. Expect to pay invoice price less the $5k buyout less any current incentives (i.e. last month was $1k March Madness on cars older than 120 days on the lot - I know there's $1k on the '05's but don't know if this applies to the '04's).
--Robert
Sputterguy's post regarding his communication with an editor of edmunds is not encouraging. The editor seems to exhibit the same detached arrogant, elitist view of us readers that brought down Dan Rather and Bill Moyers (if you're up on big media bias you know about that). That's okay: edmunds can be replaced, and we'll go elsewhere for objective appraisals of cars. We will dispense our genius, captivating opinions elsewhere.
Some sites just don't understand that their success is absolutely and intimately wedded to we readers' perception of how honest they are when they write stuff for us to read. If they blow the honesty thing they are past history, like Rather and Moyers.
Regarding "made in USA", I'm not totally with you on that, dragon. The reason (at least a major reason) the company I worked for (26 years) went bankrupt in 1991 (Pan Am Airlines) was because of Tony Soprano-type unions, where baggage guys were making $40,000 a year (in the 80's). I won't spend more money for an inferior product just to support corrupt USA unions. The president of my union, the Airline Pilot's Association, was making over $400,000 a year, plus benefits, when Pan Am went bankrupt -- that was 15 years ago. I don't want to buy a Mustang because it's not built with the same care that the Australian goat is. I really wanted to buy American, but the Mustang is just too tacky when compared to the Australian goat or German products.
My wife and I are going to climb Mt. Washington this summer (the highest terrain on the east coast). We did that once already, with my Audi A6turbo. It was cool, because going downhill, when most cars had to stop every mile to cool their brakes, I just kept my A6 in 1st and glided down (noiselessly, like a polite metroman), not even touching the brakes. This year it'll be the goat in 1st gear, with over 5,000 feet of vertical decent, me listening to my LS2's throbbing, rapping protests: Hey, I don't like this coasting crap -- push me! Let me go! My wife thinks we're doing this trip to see beautiful nature.
My replacement car's battery was leaking (and then I dropped it, ouch!). Put in an Optima Red Top (p/n RED-34R - you need the R model to have the battery posts the correct way) - got it from a friend of a friend (battery truck delivery driver) for $80, expect to pay $130 or so for it retail.
It is possible there's some kind of wiring fault which is causing this. They should have replaced the battery the second time. If the dealership is that concerned about lemon law, propose this to them. Have them agree to reimburse you for buying an Optima yourself - then go do that. If it fixes the problem, you never have to worry about the replacment Delco going bad. If it dies too, then you know the problem lies elsewhere, and they try to fix it (have them contact Kobie Glenn at GM - he's the GTO Brand Quality Manager and can ensure they know how to troubleshoot the problem).
--Robert
I do agree that the dealer should have replaced the battery the second time. Knowing some about battery (did a long stint with a battery manufacturer) once a battery get drain to a dead condition, many times it's shot. Also, the battery could have a dead cell condition, funky electrolyte level, bent plate or connector, or a parasitic drain/leak. The dealer, at a minimum, should have done a battery load test, drain test, charge state test while car is running / off. Many times the dealer will just hit the battery with a booster to get the car started and let it run 5 - 10 minutes to let the charging system charge up the battery. Doesn't work too well. The car obviously has a drain somewhere, either through the electrical system or the battery itself or a combo.
I'd take the car back and leave it until they fix it correctly. The son paid too much money to accept this.
The Union method of employment in the USA is one of the main reasons for the Dounfall of US manufacturing. Unions, and there political friends to the left, heckle companies untill they agree to insane pensions and salaries, making it impossible to fire people and increasing costs to the point where the company dies and the union worker loses his job.
This is happenning in the auto, airline, and in the 80's it happenned with clothing. It is just impossible to compete with a lower cost company. Toyota makes more omney selling camry's than GM makes on its SUV's (just look at the financials) because they have lower labor costs.
The GTO is an awesome car, and one of the reasons is, it was not make with the UAW. It is insame, GM is insuring people who don't even work for the company. Meanwhile, toyta developed hybrid technology and is looking into avaiation, while bieng the worlds number 1 automaker in about eight years.
We need to reform the way employment is done in America, or else the only cars we will choose from will be japanese and european, our cloths made in china, and our lives subject and wholly owned by a foreign nation.
I support the "buy American" philosophy beause unless we do, we will all be out of a job. However, people didn't buy American because it was American, they bought it because it was better. In many of todays industries, it is all about cost. Get the costs down and American will be better again.
It's comming around, but the union must go or else GM will be backrupt and the GTO badge will be sold to toyota by angry credators. :surprise:
bigdaddycoats, "Karl's Daily Log Book" #199, 14 Apr 2005 7:01 am
IMHO, it's not the workforce that's the problem with domestic autos - it's shoddy design and lazy product development. Using the same interior parts, (radios, steering wheels, dash displays, etc), across low-end and premium targeted vehicles. Designing new cars that handle and ride fairly well, (Ford 500, etc), and slapping wheezy, 10+ yr old engines in them. It's what a buddy of mine calls dumb-$hittery. Could also be called a disdain for the customer - designing to minimum acceptable levels instead of maximum quality/performance. I have a 2004 GTO, and I love it - except for the trunk which is a prime example of going for the easy solution instead of the best one. The car was built by union workers in Australia - but also designed there by a team that was interested in the overall quality of the package. The interior is great, the seats are great, the finish is good, and of course it goes like stink!
Does anybody know if getting replacement parts on this car will be a problem if they discontinue the line? I know automakers need to carry parts for like up to 10 years after the car is made...but since this car is manufactured overseas in "G-day mate" land...will that come into play? :confuse:
Also, I noticed there's a lot of ranting and raving that Edmunds hasn't reviewed the new GTO yet from the lucky Goat owners here on the forum. But how come YOU GUYS haven't gone in and done any consumer reviews!!! Help the GTO out, the Editor's rating has fallen to 7.8 - that's garbage! It'd be good to hear both the positive and negative views of '05 owners. :shades:
Olds is gone and my dealer has no issues getting parts for my Aurora (Caddy drivetrain, G-body chassis same as Caddies, Buicks, and Pontiacs). There have been some issues getting parts across the water, but this situation seems improved over last year.
Long-term, companies like JHP and CAPA sell Aussie parts and wheels to U.S. buyers now (I bought the Commodore SS mudflaps from JHP). I would imagine that would continue. Thank goodness for the "connectivity" of the Internet, plus air freight :-)
Bottom line is, if you're going to use this car as your daily driver for the next 5-7 years, I wouldn't worry. You'll have more issues finding a competent GM service department than you will in finding the parts, if my experience is the norm :-)
--Robert
You shouldn't have to keep taking the car in and wasting your time while they troubleshoot the car. Have them REPLACE THE BATTERY! It's under warranty. That's the least they can do and you shouldn't settle for less.
Japanese workers make as much or more than American workers. And yes, they outsource jobs to China. One problem they don't have there is 20 million undocumented aliens. Or thousands of legal immigrants arriving all the time. Maybe that's the answer, drive down wages and then maybe we can compete with that Chinese worker that makes a buck an hour and no benefits. But at those wages your not likely to be buying a new Mustang or GTO or computer or TV or even a car magazine. I know that's a bit extreme but that's the direction we are headed. Disclaimer: I am not in a union. But I have been downsized
Guarantee you this: European union auto workers -- even with the higher numbers in benefits and wages -- have a much lower living standard than UAW guys. It sounds like dhanley's union is in contract negotiations, judging from the whining: They have it better! Well, they don't, and I've got a hunch he knows that.
Why does the Mustang look shoddy compared to the GTO? Hard to say, but it sure isn't because the union guys here don't make enough per hour. It's my guess that Germans, Japanese and, apparently, Aussies, have more discipline in everything they do -- a cultural thing.
1200 trouble-free miles on my '05 and lovin it. Finally: even the inside of the exhaust pipes take a nice polish.
Oh, please. I'm an engineer, and we don't have unions.
As for the rest of your post, i think it's absurdly off-base but it's also off-topic, so i'm going to leave it alone.
Another BTW: union membership has been down (less than 17%) for many years because most most workers have educated themselves on the history of unions and their impact on free enterprise: check it out.
This discussion will be solely on the GTO - mechanics, features, etc.
Sat in one extensively when they first came out - liked it a lot - but didn't think I could swing it at 33k, wasn't sure I wanted to drive one in winter. Fast forward to July when incentives came out. I had been shopping GM cars for a couple of months - was pretty unhappy with the Bonnie GXP, wife already had an '01 GTP and I didn't care for the '04. Took one test drive and I was HOOKED. All I could think about was getting one. Knew I could wait (didn't NEED another car), so I did. Not long. Bit when the incentives jumped in late August/early September.
I think it's one of the best cars GM sells in North America. To see it trashed or ignored or branded a failure in the media, really PO's me. 99% of those folks have never sat in the car, much less driven one. Take the Pontiac badges and wing off, put a Monaro (non-Pontiac) nose on it, and let critics test-drive the car, and they'd rave about it.
*sigh*
--Robert