Pontiac GTO

crossbreed411

that drive by wire thing sounds pretty interesting (you just better hope it never shorts out) ill have too look into it to see how it works seeing as how GM doesnt like to train us about new systems untill something goes wrong with a few and no one knows how to fix em, i did notice a heck of a lot more space in the engine compartment when i did the predelivery inspeaction but didnt think to look for what was missing, a steering shaft perhaps? i had heard rumors of them coming out with an electric pwr steering pump so maybe this turned into an electric steering box instead, or both, if anyone knows for sure please post it up
-nick

bigdaddycoats

I do not think GM uses any drive by wire system currently.

They do use electric steering systems on the Malibu, G6, ION, Cobalt, Equinox - I think that is all for now.

white6

on these vehicles has nothing to do with the steering. The LS2 uses an electronic throttle; no cable running from the accelerator pedal to the engine any more. Accelerator pedal action tells computer what throttle action is requested and then a small acutator opens and/or closes the throttle on the engine. All BMW's use electronic throttle (for several years now) and, actually, my 2000 Firebird 3.8 V-6 used electronic throttle. Pretty common these days.

rorr

There is more to life, and car quality, than just 0-60 or 1/4 mile times. Otherwise, we would all be driving 15 year old 5.0 Mustangs with Vortech S/C and laughing at those "idiots" in their high falutin' BMW's.

The quicker GM fans can grow up and accept the fact that other adults don't give a rats whether you can beat them to the next stop light or not, the better for GM. Do you honestly think the owner of a BMW cares IN THE SLIGHTEST that you can bury him in tire smoke?

bigdaddycoats

BMWs are not that special. Good cars yes, but they are everywhere.

At least my GTO has some exclusivity

rorr

Yes.

BMW's are everywhere, and yes, your GTO does have some exclusivity.

But, at least to their owners, the BMW's ARE special. Just as, to you, your GTO is special. And apparently to those whose profession is driving cars (all different kinds and classes of cars), they believe that BMW's are special too.

But since I've driven neither any current BMW's or GTO's, I can't comment on whether they are 'special' to me.

Enjoy your GTO and don't worry about what others drive. Personally, I drive a POS Celica GTS with over 120k on the odo. Is my car 'special'? Not really; but it does what I ask of it and it's performance can make me smile in the right circumstances. Isn't that what we all want out of our cars?

sensai

Actually, since almost every BMW driver on the road is trying to fly by and cut off someone, I would say yes they do care about how fast their cars are.

Anyways, traded in my 99 GTP for a 05 GTO over the weekend. Just an awesome car, I cannot believe some people are claiming it is overpriced. Build quality up there with the best and 400hp for low 30s, what other cars offer that?

jontyrees

Sensai - exactly my sentiments! It's just unfortunate, (or fortunate if you're buying one), that there is a general perception that a Pontiac can't be worth $30k. Continue the argument that a BMW owner doesn't care if your GTO is faster:

"Well my seats are more comfortable too"

"Don't care"

"My build quality is just as good"

"Don't care"

"Mine is $20k cheaper"

"Don't care. Does yours have a propeller logo on the front of the hood?"

"No"

"Hah! Gotcha!"

Ok - that was sorta ridiculous, but it's all about perceived value, not necessarily objective.

rorr

"...it's all about perceived value, not necessarily objective."

EXACTLY!!!!!!

Now, try to define 'value' objectively.

tripowergto

"Now, try to define 'value' objectively"

ummm... GTO!!

xkss

just go drive one.

it couldn't hurt.

andys120

just go drive one.

it couldn't hurt.

I agree but since we're talking about comparative value I'd be willing to bet that most BMW-doubters have never driven one.

Drive one THEN tell me it's not worth the extra $$.

qbrozen

ummmm... can somebody explain the rationale in comparing this car to a BMW?

midwesttrader

You'll have to talk to Bob Lutz. He'll fill you in.

qbrozen

thanks. i'll ask him next time we're having drinks.

In the meantime, maybe those on the board who are actually comparing them can help explain THEIR rationale.

sensai

I have driven a 330, 540, and 740, and no they are not worth the extra money. About the only thing the BMW buys you is more features (many of them useless and prone to breaking which means much $$$ down the road into repair costs), and ultra refined engines (I prefer an engine that lets me know it is there, but I understand that is not everyones preference). Is that worth 20k or more (along with $400 oil changes)? Not by a long shot.

rorr

$400 oil changes? Oh come now, we wouldn't be exagerating a bit for effect, now would we?

And I don't think a very nicely optioned 330 is anywhere NEAR 20k more than a GTO......unless you take into account the first year depreciation on an '04 model GTO.....hmmmm, yep, I guess there WOULD be a 20k delta....

coreseller

My boss has a 540 6 speed, smoothest V-8 and drivetrain I've ever driven. It is hands down the nicest 4 door sedan out there IMO. That being said, it was $62k new in 1997, with 110K miles it's now worth about $10k. Maintenance and repairs are ridiculously expensive but that comes with the German territory. My GTO feels every bit as solid as his car and cost a fraction of it. BMW's are very nice cars but the Image is as much of a selling point (look at me, I can afford this) as their engineering.

casoncase

It's the media that started the comparison, not we posters. Edmunds.com extolled the objective aspects of the '04 GTO long before it appeared in the showroom: excellent quality interior, big horsepower, good suspension, etc. Edmunds.com (now strangely silent on the '05 GTO) and most mags were comparing the '04 GTO to the BMW and other European cars with the emphasis on this fact: the GTO was a very good buy when compared to what you'd have to pay for a comparable high power, quality European car (Note to edmunds.com: this clearly applies to the '05 too, and the price is the same as the '04!). That's why I bought the '04 and the '05, sight unseen.

I replaced my Audi A6 2.7T man6 with the '04 GTO. Putting aside the facts that the A6 couldn't get out of its own way (which I never fully understood until I drove my GTO) and that numerous mechanicals occurred, I liked the car for its quality feel. My 320i had the same feel.

So, the rationale in comparing the GTO to the BMW can be found in the gazillion positive, objective articles on the '04 GTO written prior to its appearance in the USA (true, there were few who liked its looks, but that's subjective). A lot of us posters know the articles were right because we own one. I'm on my second one and I know the comparison is a valid one.

qbrozen

about a half second difference between the 2.7T and '04 GTO in the 0-60 arena. I'm surprised to hear you praise the power of one and chastise another for such a minor difference. But, to each his own. personally, i just gained about a full second in my recent luxury-to-sportscar switch, but I barely notice it unless I'm pushing the car VERY hard (which is impossible on public roads 99% of the time anyway).

Anyway, back to this comparison, I'm glad that, in the end, you put your personal emphasis on the comparison because, frankly, who cares what the magazines compare? If they pit a ferrari against a neon, it doesn't mean the 2 cars should be cross-shopped. SO, to shorten the details, are you saying the GTO has the same luxurious feel that your A6 did?

hammen2

Pardon my GM bias (I am a 2004 GTO owner), but I do think that you can compare these two cars:

http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/6/645CiCoupe

http://www.pontiac.com/gto

I've been helping my sister look for a new car (she absolutely wants a stick and has been looking at BMW's). On paper, these cars are very comparable. I am sure that more amenities (Nav, Xenon, et. al.) are available on the BMW than on the GTO, but look at the specs:

6-series:
Length/width/height 190.2/73.0/54.1 in
Wheelbase 109.4 in
Weight 3,781 lbs
Liter/type 4.4/V-8
Nominal power @ rpm 325 HP @ 6100 hp
Max torque @ rpm 330 HP @ 3600 lb-ft
Fuel grade Unleaded premium
Acceleration 0 - 60 5.5 [5.7] sec
Top speed 149 mph

GTO:
Length/width/height 189.8/72.5/54.9
Wheelbase 109.8
Weight 3,725 lbs.
Liter/type 6.0/V8
Nominal power @ rpm 400 HP @ 5200 rpm
Max torque @ rpm 400 lb-ft @4000 rpm
Fuel grade Unleaded premium
Acceleration 0 - 60 4.7 [4.6] sec
Top Speed 162 mph

OK, here are the big ones:

MSRP:
6-series: $69.9
GTO: $33.5-34.3 k.

Do not discount the GTO because it has a Pontiac name on it - as most know, it's really a Holden Monaro. Has one of the nicest and most comfortable interiors GM's ever done, and that's mostly because GMNA didn't have too much influence on it. The BMW would have to be super-amazing (I haven't driven one, don't plan on doing so) to be worth twice the price. GTO outperforms it on the straight-line, don't know about the skidpad but the GTO is no slouch there either (get rid of the stock tires, which are terrible for any kind of cornering)...

--Robert

qbrozen

hey, there's that neon/ferrari comparison i was just talking about ... well, almost.

But, heck why stop with the 6-series? Check out how the GTO numbers stack up against the Maserati Gransport. VERY similar specs. So they MUST be comparable, right? But the Maserati is over $100 large. Wow! What savings!

don't get me wrong, I'm not a BMW fan by any means (although the new 330 coming out looks pretty promising) and I do think they are overpriced for what they are.

hammen2

OK, other than the "cachet" of owning a BMW, why is this not a valid comparison? I can understand the ridiculousness of a comparo between a Neon and a Ferrari.

The GTO and the 6-series are both luxury/sport coupes. About the same size, seats 4, big V-8, lots of power.

What makes the comparison invalid?

qbrozen

same can be said of my Maserati comparison.

exalteddragon1

The reason people buy expensive cars, half the time has to do with one thing: exclusivity.

That's it, when compearing to cars lke the GTO or Mustang you can see that the performance, dimensions, and quality are very similar (and often favor the Mustang and GTO). In recent studies, it has shown that USA cars are mosre reliable, and Euopean cars are going down in quality.

But with the European cars, you get one aspectr you canot get with GTO, and thats te "hey look at me, I've arrived" factor.

The truth of the matter is, if you don't have anybody to impress standing then get a GTO so you can impress them driving and save enough money to put a down payment on a new home... with a garage to park your new car.

sensai

$400 oil changes? Oh come now, we wouldn't be exagerating a bit for effect, now would we?

If you think that is an exaggeration, go talk to 740 owners. I know a couple, and that is what they shell out whever they go in for an oil change. Well, OK, they do get their cabin air filters replaced too...

Mr_Shiftright

I think the original point being made by some folks here, if I may presume to speak for them, as to why a comparison is somewhat pointless is that 95% of all car buyers will not cross-shop these two marques any more than Corvette "steals" Ferrari sales (it doesn't, Ferrari is sold out). It would be similar, say, to Acura buyers shopping Kias. It's considered moving "down market". Whether it's irrational or justified is not really the issue. Image and reputation are powerful marketing forces in the auto biz and in the American way of life. One always "improves" one's position in life. Very few people who have been driving a Mercedes are going to show up in a Mustang. It would require a great deal of self- assurance to do so, I think. I mean, I would and maybe you would but most won't IMO.

Besides all that, I haven't driven the new GTO, but I'd be rather shocked if it felt anything like a 6 series BMW, OR vice-versa, no matter what the stats. These are such different beasts with such different purposes.

Everybody buys their "weapon of choice"...some like cannons, some razor sharp swords, you know?

If I had a couple million bucks to blow on a GTO marketing campaign, I have some good ideas (well I think so) and they wouldn't have ANYTHING to do with wasting resources marketing against BMW--which is (DOH!) primarily a luxury 4-door sedan maker--that's where they make their money, not in stick shift V8 sport coupes. Cadillac should market against BMW, which it isn't doing, it's marketing against Lexus.

Nobody at GM listens to me....wah!

dhanley

I have driven a GTO and a 3-series is my daily driver. My cousin works as a mechanic for a pontiac dealer and has pointed out to me i can get a leftover '04 for 23.5K. And i'd have a relative working on my car, which would be cool. He was reacting to the knowledge that i'm considering an a3 or a new 3-series as my next car. He thinks i ought to get something "simpler."

There is a pretty big difference between the GTO and "a bmw." The GTO is undoubtedly a lot faster than my 3. And look at that price. However, the BMW definitely feels higher quality, and has the ability to be fast&fun in a safer way, if that make sense. I like wringing out the engine for more than a few seconds without getting a ticket, and the gto feels less live to me (when ossing it into turns) until it's at the point of cracking up. The BMW has excellent traction, yet is compliant over very bumpy roads, and is quiet on the highway. And i'd have to give up some things i really like--climate control, seat heaters, stability control, xenons, etc. I think the absence of stability control on such a powerful RWD car is a serious problem.

The question for me would be, when does the joy of 350/400hp wear off, and i start to miss "those other things." I think for me it'd be pretty soon. After all, we all live with traffic and speed limits. But i have thought about it. I don't know if i'd consider myself a cross-shopper though. Mostly a bargain shopper who would like it if his cuz worked on his car.

And i pay $60 for oil changes. I could do them myself for $35 were i ambitious.

dave

sputterguy

Thanks. I had heard the GTO was going to drive by wire or electronic throttle as you call it. And I've heard that some cars that have it have a lag from when the peddle is pushed to when the car accelerates. However, having just test driven the '05 I'm happy to say I couldn't tell so they must have done a good job of it.

hammen2

Just so you know, the Monaro (especially in HSV trim, with NAV, HIDs, et. al.) is compared against the 6-series in Australia. Ditto the Vauxhall VXR in the UK. Not sure about the Lumina SS coupe in the GM Arabia markets...

Of course, the dealership experience (and especially service) is light-years apart between Pontiac and BMW. But I personally believe these cars are closer than most people think.

cccompson

Shhhhhhhhhhh, Robert, you're letting the secret out.

Mr_Shiftright

How would you find them similar, I mean, "in the flesh"? They seem so incredibly different in concept and execution and appeal. BMW drivers don't want a boisterous "muscle car" (do they?) and GTO owners don't want a over-engineered presicision super-luxury GT "gentleman's" car (do they?)

I can see why Australians would love the GTO, and why Americans would (we are not so dissimilar in nature) but I can't see a German in a GTO for love or money.

sputterguy

"more to life and car quality, than just 0-60 or 1/4 mile times". There is? Oh, you mean handling. The BMW has quality and handling but not the speed (for $33K). The GTO has power, handling, and quality. That's works for me..

sputterguy

Congratulations. Don't have to tell you to enjoy.

crusher

I understand where you are coming from. I have the option to purchase a 2005 GTO with GMS Employee pricing and the option to purchase 2006 BMW 3 Series at a discounted Military Overseas pricing (currently stationed overseas).
I have been an owner of both domestic and foreign brands. If I could have the raw horsepower of American V8 with the balance and cachet of Bimmer it would be a perfect world.
But we Americans are given more choices, choices, choices......and thank God for that!

white6

I traded a 2004 325i for my 04 GTO. I had a 04 330Ci prior to that. If I could have the drivetrain out of the GTO put in the 330Ci I would have the perfect car! Of course, that 330Ci stickered at $40,000 (and it wasn't loaded); the 325i stickered at just over $30,000 (it was pretty much a stripper; sport package was the only option). My GTO stickered at $33,500 and after all the rebates, etc., my sales price was $25,339 ($14,000 less than the sales price on the 330Ci). The bimmers were definitely higher quality (in design, materials and assembly) but the GTO is, by far, the best domestic I've owned. It also doesn't drive like a bimmer; if you don't get that then it wouldn't matter to you. Drive a 3-series and then tell me you can't tell. On the other hand, the clutch in the 325i had about 14 feet of travel and the electronic throttle had just about a half-second delay; made it almost impossible for me to drive smoothly. I'll admit that I'm not the most skilled at the manual tranny thing, but this was ridiculous. The GTO, by comparison, is just effortless to drive. Steering is pretty good (not as good as the bimmer, though) and the power is, of course, intoxicating. Brakes, on the other hand, definitely could use some work (which, supposedly, they addressed on the 05) and the removal of the Monaro HVAC controls definitely cheapened the car a bit. Seat memory would also be a welcome feature that is standard in the Monaro. Maybe next year....

casoncase

Thanks for what you do for us, crusher.

No, qbrozen, the goat does not match the A6 in luxury, but it's in the ball park. As to reliance on mags and edmunds.com, it's called informing yourself about a subject. Your posts are informative.

Why do folks come up to my GTO and ask how I like it, or tell me there dad had one, or that they think it's not really a goat? When I first got my A6Turbo only one guy communicated his opinion about the A6. IMHO it may be a cultural bias rooted in an elitist European attitude (shared by some Americans) towards anything American. That arrogance is currently on pathetic display in regards to the war. Polls show Europeans think Bush is a total imbecile (ergo, so are we Americans who chose him as our leader).

Perhaps that elitism is expressed in their cars. A BMW doesn't elicit a "how you doin', come on over and check me out" like the GTO does: rather, it's "Keep your distance, I'm European." Host, I can't see a German in a GTO either.

So, I guess the GTO logo is a big plus for me. It's in-your-face American: it's unpretentious, powerful, pretty luxurious, and cheaper. Let the elitists pay double and triple for the name BMW: My American GTO takes a drag on his cigarette and flicks it at the European, turns, and swaggers into the setting sun [Note to any Europeans readers: No, Americans don't really believe cars flick cigarettes or ponder stuff].

qbrozen

LOL.
very humorous post. Thanks, casoncase.

Yeah, I know what you mean about "car camaraderie." I've NEVER had any comments regarding my Volvo T5. But I remember one of the great things about driving my old CJ7 around was the way all of us CJ owners would wave and honk as we passed each other on the road. And now, with my 350Z, I've had several comments on how beautiful it is (just had a 50-year-old woman stop me in the parking lot yesterday - I'm not sure how to take that, though. lol).

So, yeah, I can see how reactions to your American muscle car can make a purchase more worthwhile.

mparis1

can we make the hold scoops functional.? New York Auto Show....................any thing there about the GTO?

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think GM is serious about marketing against BMW anyway...sounds like just an offhand comment at a news conference or something.

I hope they do market the car correctly in the future however so that people can become more aware of its merits.

andys120

I can't see a German in a GTO for love or money.
Nah Germans are into Mustangs :^)

exalteddragon1

red calipers on the breaks. How much extra do you think the xenons, nav, and HVACS from the monaro would cost here? Probably pucs it into corvette territory...

but at least add xenons, common this is 35K.

cracovian

...one major thing that our GTO is missing are the side airbags/curtains. It might not matter to you but when my '04 comes off lease in two years, unless '06s have that basic safety feature I ain't getting one.

Safety (side airbags, stability control) and comfort (how about some heated seats, sunroof, and external temp. gauge?) is also why luxury cars sell. Until then, good luck comparing the GTO to the bimmers.

briandelsol

I am very interested in a 05, thou living in Sunny Sacramento with many weekend trips to Lake Tahoe and the coast I would love to get a moonroof or sunroof, Are they available? and would it be worth the money? Thats the only thing holding me back, I found a dark blue 6 speed with my name on it! I can't wait to get rid of my very dependable but very BORING Toyota Solara! thanks Brian

white6

Sub-$20,000 cars have auto climate control.... I think a $33,500 car should have higher-end HVAC controls than a 20-year-old Camaro. And they already build em that way, so it wouldn't require any engineering, design or manufacturing; just make em all the same! As far as the xenons and nav; you can keep those, not interested. The standard headlights are great (though poorly aimed from the factory) and I know where I'm going; definitely don't want to have to pay for the nav system plus it requires alot of design expense to work it into the dash.
The other thing I'm getting tired of: what's up with all the silver-painted interior trim in cars now? Do they think we're so stupid we believe it's real metal? Gonna look great in a few years after it gets all scratched up and shows the black plastic below. They should have at least laminated the silver ring on the console with the same stuff they used on the steering wheel spokes.

lanzz

crac - the lack of side air bags or a side curtain is the thing that keeps me from jumping into a GTO.

With a GM supplier discount, GM card points and the rebates out there - it is tempting, but it seems nuts to go without a key safety feature.

Hope they at least add the seat mounted side bags in the '06 -

briandelsol

I found my goat, just wondering how much my insurance will go up I drive a Solara now it's about 85.00 a month from State farm and I have a good record

troiaeye

Who offered the "roundup" bonus the dealer or the credit card company?

cracovian

briandelsol - I pay about 50 bucks comprehensive a month with Geico in Georgia for 300K limits. State Farm used to be double for me with 50K limits... No need to get ripped off for the same (I'd argue, less responsive) service. Geico is unbeatable if you have an excellent driving record.

troiaeye - it was the credit card company that offered the round-up bonus. Get your GM card ASAP. Spend $100, earn $5, stop using it and wait until December to turn it into $5K

hammen2

My insurance went from $305/6 months (Milwaukee metro, no accidents or tickets since 1996, 6 mile commute to work/don't regularly drive my car for my job) for my '98 Aurora, to $345/6 months on the 2004 GTO. Not too bad, considering. I've "heard" that the GTO insurance is relatively low for a 350 or 400 hp RWD coupe - this may change if a ton of folks buy them and start cracking them up.

Of course, if you've got a bunch of accidents and tickets in your background, it won't be cheap - but that would be the case no matter what you bought. When researching vehicles for possible purchase, I always talk to my insurance agent before test-driving...

--Robert