Pontiac GTO

sputterguy

Dang, I ran out of room before I finished my reply. I guess you only get so many lines when you reply as opposed to posting a new message?

As for the Mustang 5.0, there is no stock 5.0 in the world that will do 0-60 in 5 seconds or the quarter anywhere in the 13's. I've never raced it but I know my GTP is faster off the line. The Mustang's cubes would eventually take over, but until then. That's why in '99 they bumped the 4.6 up to 260 horse. It wasn't competetive. Now at least they have made the Mustang a decent car again.

bottgers

The numbers I posted were numbers I ran personally. My LX was a hatchback and it came from the factory with a 3:27 rear end. It turned higher RPM's at highway speeds, but it accelerated like a mad dog. The Fox body 'Stangs that ran in the 6.0-6.5 range were usually early 90's GT's with a 2:73 rear end. Ford rated the 5.0 at 225 HP from '87 to '93, but it's a proven fact the '87 and '88 models were by far the quickest Fox body 'Stangs. By '89, the 5.0 wasn't making as much power even though Ford kept the HP rating the same.

As for the turbo Regal (Grand National), I believe it weighed somewhere between 3400 and 3500. The factory rear end was 3:42 and the torque of the 3.8 was 355 ft. lbs. It was a bit quicker than the 'Stang up to about 70 or 80, but after that, it was all 'Stang.

bottgers

All I can say to you is you're full of crap. The late 80's Fox 'Stangs with a 5M would run 5's all day long, and 13's were very doable. There's no way your GTP would even come close to one. When you start comparing the 4.6 'Stangs to the 5.0's, you're comparing apples to oranges. The Fox body was lighter and the newer body needed more power to compete. In fact, the Fox body 'Stangs would be very competitive even with today's 300 HP Mustang.

qbrozen

we are way off topic, but i just want to share this link. its a nice compilation of information:

http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/0-60times.html

zinger

Most manual trans cars have a dead pedal. While it is not that important to have it is important to have enough space between the sidewall and the clutch pedal. Otherwise your foot gets stuck under the clutch when moving to shift. Not that big a deal unless you have to change gears.

midwesttrader

Behlmann Pontiac GMC, a St. Louis area dealer, just ran an eBay auction trying to sell 18 cars (all automatics). They listed a Pulse Red w/black interior, and an Impulse Blue w/ blue interior as available. The high bid of $19,702 did not meet their reserve. Probably looking for around $26K.

Might be worth a phone call if you're in the market for one. Never know what they might bite on, especially at the end of the month.

jontyrees

Casoncase - nothing even remotely French in my lineage or location - actually a transplanted Brit, (and you know how well we get along with the French), in Austin, TX. I think they do a better job on cheese and wine than cars, although my mom still drives a 10yr old Peugeot. Your comment about the French just made me think of Peter Sellars as Inspector Clouseau pronouncing GTO "Zhey-Tey-Uhr".

casoncase

A transplanted Brit/Texan -- powerful combination, that. I would add to your observation re French expertise in producing wine and cheese (which I gave up about two years ago) the art of avoiding armed conflict at all costs -- kind of like when they surrendered to their present good buddies 65 years ago, which goes to show, again, that we're all good at something. But this is not a place for political expression and I won't do it again.

The effective trade-in on my '04 GTO was 21,700 because I avoided the 6% sales tax on the full price of the '05. Dealer charged 600 for removal of spoiler -- I'll pay half. I'm picking it up tomorrow.

It's my view that once the new '04 stock is gone the value of used '04's will increase.

My dealer has a purple, auto goat he says is becoming a permanent fixture. He thinks red/6M is a hot item.

Responder in regards to dead pedal: thanks for the info.

zinger

When you pick it up will you post a picture with the spoiler off?

I disagree with you regarding the 04 value going up - lets face it have you ever seen a car go up in value? GM would not have a fire sale on these if they were not hung to the gills. The fact is they still have a boatload of 04's and once driven off the lot will take a huge depreciation hit. Yours depreciated by 1/3 in one year over $10K!

hammen2

Just went to my dealer to pick up my SAP (autocross grilles, autocross spoiler, and '05 hood) for my '04 GTO. He handed me this printout:

"March will be the final consensus for the 2005 GTO ... build out has been moved up to mid-June (two months earlier than last year) and requires dealers to provide their final request for the 2005 GTO during the March consensus. The March consensus will be larger than normal and will represent the final shot at getting GTO's for the year. The 2006 model start up is scheduled for late August with the initial '06 arrivals planned for dealerships in December. Therefore, dealers will need to plan their 2005 sales forecast through the end of the year! Don't get caught short! 2005 GTO sales are significantly up over last year and well ahead of our forecast. Current days supply is low and we are entering the spring selling season. Take the time during the next few weeks to plan your GTO inventory through the end of the year."

sputterguy

Upgraded to an '05! Right on dude. I've thought about it but it probably will never happen. Since I paid so much for mine I doubt I could get a good enough deal to make it worth it. Anyway, congratulations and go kick some Mustang butt.

midwesttrader

I don't see how anyone but a marketing person can jump to that conclusion. If GM is still building the 12K announced, they have to move an average of 1K per month. Last year the months of April, May and June were some of the worst for sales.

They moved 898 during January compared with a pathetic 476 sold during January '04. That is "significantly up." But 898 is still over 100 cars under their monthly goal.

February is a short sales month. We'll know the number in 4 or 5 days and then we'll start to see if anyone might be "caught short" 8 or 10 months from now.

casoncase

I will do the pictures, zinger. The removal will be scheduled some time in the near future because I couldn't wait to get my butt into the driver's seat, but it will be within the month.

What I meant by value going up is that, when the new '04's are gone and the dealers are taken out of the market picture, if you have an '04 GTO, of which there are a mere several thousand (in over a year with my '04 I have never seen another '04 on any road) in a nation of 300 million, the reality is that modern GTO's are a rarity: my guess is that that rarity in the market means better values.

The option for a prospective GTO buyer is: buy an '05 (which is, some would say, only marginally superior to the '04) or pay 8M to 10M less for an '04. If you look at how the '04 GTO compares to even '05 high performance cars you've still got a great deal buying a used '04. You'll still smoke the the rest of them, with four people comfortably seated! And, unlike the Mustang -- one showed up in my bathroom room last night -- they are not everywhere, all the time, every time you take a trip.

IMHO I think the motor media has conspired against GM's GTO from day one. Motor Trend's piece on the goat was disgracefully pandering to the Mustang interests and I'll never buy an issue again. Their equating the quality and muscle of a 300HP Mustang GT to the 400HP GTO was so biased as to make one think of Dan Rather's believability in reporting "the facts" to us over two decades. Even edmunds.com is revealing a bias by not, to this date, reviewing the new GTO.

Sputterguy: Thanks for the spirit. The reason one works hard when one is young is to be able to blow off the 10M when you're old. The sound of the LS1, and now the LS2 is worth every dollar -- but, I'm nuts, so who cares?

sputterguy

I'm surprised you are so vehement about my post. But since you are lets take a closer look. Thanks to qbrozen we now have some realistic 0-60 and quarter mile times. I'll be the first to aknowledge that the figures are very subjective and can vary due to conditions at the track and certainly the driver has a lot to do with it. Heck, some car magazine drivers can't even get a GTO up to 60 in less than 6 seconds.

There are no published times showing any 5.0 getting to 60 and quicker than the mid 6's. Specifically, an '88 GT took 6.4 seconds to get to 60 and 15.0 in the quarter. A '97 GTP (and as far as I know there were no changes from '97 to'03) got to 60 in 6.6 seconds and did the quarter in 15.0 seconds. I'm surprised at that. I thought the GTP would get off to a quicker start and the Mustang would catch up. But it looks like they were virtually neck and neck all the way dow the line. Which contradicts your statement that my GTP wouldn't come close. You have (had) an LX which is lighter than the GT so surely you will be faster. But fast enough to get into the 5's, I just don't think so. The only Mustang to do that was the Cobra. No GT until '99 was able to do that and that's what I said in my post, that they bumped up the hp in the '99. You finish by saying the old Mustangs would be competetive with the new one. Since the new Mustang is, unfortunately, competitive with the GTO, you are also saying the old 5.0's are also competitive with the GTO. At least that's where your logic leads. It's one thing to say you can take a GTP, although it seems to me they are pretty much evenly matched and any differences may be due to the drivers. But stay away from any GTO's. That includes the '04, especially the '05, and even the old sixties models.

sputterguy

I think you're right about the conspiracy. The GTO is not a perfect car as everyone knows but no one has anything good to say about it. I have (or had) a Consumer Reports with an article comparing the GTO with 3 other cars. I won't go into the details unless someone wants them but the jist of it was that even though the GTO was right behind the other cars in performance and cost over $20K less the article had nothing good to say about it. Oh well, at least we know better.

nojets

I came oh so close to buying one, but, for you GM staff who track this kind of thing, it was the tiny trunk and the slow electric seat that make getting a kid in and out of the back so hard. No reason for an enthusiast not to buy this car? Maybe, but when you are on a knife edge between two competing cars, things like that will tip you. I would have LOVED this car, but how many more GTOs would GM have sold if they had taken the time to engineer the fuel tank properly and set up the reclining seat mechanism with a quick release?

jontyrees

Those are my two biggest beefs also, but I got over them. The trunk bothers me, but realistically, I don't use it much at all, and have yet to run out of room. The seat thing is just stupid - I would prefer they were completely manual than have to wait for them to creep along like they do. Some things just don't need to be automated. Again though, how long do they really make me wait? 4 seconds? Not much in the greater scheme of things, unless it's raining of course. I have 9 and 7yr old boys who I drop off at school every morning in a kind of drive-thru situation, and they manage to clamber out pretty quickly, (the 9 yr old says the car is "physically strong, but mentally weak"). I guess I'm saying that for me the problems are just inconveniences, and I can forgive them. Except the skip-shift, but I took care of that right away.

BTW - which competing car did you get? G35C? CL? 330Ci?

xkss

An advantage with the new Pontiac GTO's bland styling is that it won't attract cops. I do think the styling needs to be more aggresive though. This is the 2004 Pontiac GTO Ram Air 6.

bottgers

The reason you don't see published 0-60 times in the 5's and 1/4 mile times in the 13's for the Fox bodied 'Stangs is because the vast majority of these cars came from the factory with 2:73 rear ends and that's how they were tested. This gearing was meant for keeping the engine RPM's low at highway speeds, not for acceleration. Few people know you could order the 'Stang from the facotry with 3:08, 3:27, and 3:56 gearing as well. The latter two gearing options drastically reduced acceleration times. '87 and '88 LX's with these gearing options could easily run low 5's and 13's in the 1/4 with a 5M. I did it with mine on consistant basis, and I watched other people do it all the time. These cars would run neck and neck with Cobras, and would even be competitive with today's GTO if the times I've seen published for it are truey representitive of its performance.

sputterguy

Please repost your pictures. They did't come through, at least on my server. I'd love to see what I am assuming is a custom ram air job.

hammen2

Try here:

http://www.seriouswheels.com/top-2004-Pontiac-GTO-Ram-Air-6.htm

sputterguy

OK, I'll buy that. With lower gears and the lightest body style you were arguably faster than "the vast majority of cars that came from the factory with 2:73 rear ends". So I'm about equal to that vast majority. And when you think about it it makes sense. A supercharged 3.8 with more hp and torque and a 5.0 with a lighter body. Pretty even match, all things considered. So I will concede that you were faster than the GTP. We will have to wait and see what happens if some 5.0 wants to challenge a GTO.

sputterguy

Thanks Robert. That is a pretty cool car. A couple of those on the road would have caused a lot more interest in the GTO than that silly movie they came out with.

nojets

JonTyrees, I bought a loaded Mazda RX8. My kid's bike pops right into the trunk unlike the GTO's there was no way it would insert (to the bemusement of the Pontiac salesman), and the suicide doors make it easy for him to hop in and out of the back seat. Different take on a sports car, I know, but it seems the GTO is larger, yet ultimately less practical.

sputterguy

Awhile ago you were wondering about the Solstice. I just read that it is coming out this summer as an '06 model. It looks real good in the picture. With a projected price under $20K that would make it the cheapest 2-seater that I have seen. But with 170hp it looks to have similar performance of the turbo Miata. It's much less than the BMW with 240hp but the Beemer is way heavier. The Boxter comes in with 280hp and is a little lighter than the Beemer. Instead of putting the Northstar in family sedans and calling them sporty, I would drop it in the Solstice. That to me would be some Pontiac excitement. Also, check out the link in Hammens post #2396. That's the kind of American muscle I think you were talking about.

casoncase

Thanks for the pictures. The spoiler doesn't look stock. I like it better. I'm having the spoiler removed on my '05. I'll post pictures of it. I like the wider separation of the scopes more. The '05 scopes have a kind of pinched nose appearance because they are nearer the center line. They're still cool, though.

The venting on the '05 isn't a simple hole in the hood. There are plastic baffles or some kind of channeling the air must go through, I guess to restrict stuff from entering the engine compartment.

The rear on '05 fascinates me. I can't stop looking at the size of those pipes, the perfect balance of the whole appearance, like when you were in high school, parked on a quiet road with a date and you're unbuttoning her...sorry.

To xkss and all:

I've got about 40 miles on it. It feels much lighter when accel'ing. I haven't tromped it yet -- breaking it in, but this thing wants to rock and roll. Any notions on how I should break it in? And when should I do the first oil change? (BTW, Mobil 1 is standard now -- wasn't on my '04).

When I first checked out the car Friday there was evidence of dust-like fine sand on the flat surfaces of the engine. The dealer didn't know how it got there, but he cleaned it up. I told him to vacuum clean the engine compartment before wiping it down, to avoid scratching. It's my guess that it was trucked through some plowed/sanded highways, but there's no evidence of paint scratching. Actually, the dealer could have covered this up by cleaning it up before I saw it, which was about 12 hours after the dealer got it -- a plus for him, in my book.

A tech question: how does a K&N air filter boost the horsepower, if it does? Less restricted airflow?

casoncase

When I got my '04 goat a year ago my insurance company wanted to double my premiums that were on an '04 Audi A6 Turbo. He said that was necessary because the '04 GTO horsepower put the car in a "high performance" category, and therefore, the higher premiums. I asked him: "What's that got to do with me -- I have a perfect driving history?" The next day he got back to me and had cut in half the premium. This year, on my '05, my premium actually went down to $880 a year (USAA Insurance). I don't get tickets because I don't drive fast. I accelerate fast.

Just checked the K&N website: they sell an '05 GTO oil filter but no air filter yet (they have them for the '04). Are K&N oil filters better?

graphicguy

sputterguy....I saw the Solstice at the recent autoshow in my 'burg. I think Pontiac has a winner on their hands if they can hold tight on their pricing.

We'll see how that goes once somebody gets some seat time in one, however. On paper and in person, it looks good.

I wasn't real fond of the vast expanse of plastic....particularly given how most manufacturer's are going more upscale with their interiors....even on "budget" models. But, at the price, it could be forgiven.

Don't know how Mazda will respond. But, they are supposed to unveil a new Miata on 3/1.

I had seen those pics of that GTO show car. That would have gone a long way towards people getting more of a "feel good" about the GTO's style, no doubt. But, that's not what they brought to the marketplace.

I know this isn't what most in this thread want to hear, but I put a deposit down on a Mustang GT. I looked for a Mustang GT in 3 surrounding states, but couldn't find one on the lot (except for a few yellow ones).

Interesting story, I hit every Ford dealership within 30 miles of me yesterday trying to find one. One dealer had 3 of them (all yellow), but they were all "program cars" (or so the dealer said) with over 1,000 miles on them. Supposedly, they were used for test drives only. Two of them sold within the 30 minutes I was at this dealership. Are you ready for this? THEY SOLD FOR MSRP. I asked if they were considered "new". Dealer said "no". They were sold as "used" cars.

Most dealers say their whole allotment of Mustang GTs for the rest of the year were spoken for. They were taking deposits for '06 models, though.

I did find one dealer willing to order an '05 GT for me (which is who I ordered from). They even let me use "X" plan pricing (which is about a $100 or two over invoice...~$25,500 for one that will sticker at ~$27,700). They said expect a 6-8 week wait, but if all the other dealers are correct, it's more like a 3 month wait, if you can actually get an '05 GT.

Another dealer told me of people following delivery trucks to the dealership and buying them before they were unloaded. It's nuts.

My deposit is refundable. If I can't get a Mustang GT in that 6-8 week time frame, I'll be buying the '05 GTO, though. Right now, I'm carless. I'm forcing my son to share his car with me (much to his chagrin).

My local Pontiac dealer will let me GMS/GMO a GTO. That's still an over $30K price, though. He told me last week that all I have to do is give him the word and he'd have whatever color I want within 24 hours.

hammen2

You will get many different opinions on the break-in process... there's no one proven "right" way to do so. Some people say drive it like Grandma for the first 500 miles, others say drive it like you stole it. I broke my first GTO in by trying to keep it under 4k rpms, but not keeping the speed down - if anthing, I varied it (drove it mostly on the highway - went from 55-75 depending upon traffic conditions - did NOT use my cruise AT ALL for the first 500-600 miles). My second GTO sits in storage with 42 miles onit, so I get to break it in in about a month :-)

Ditto on oil changes... some folks believe you need to change the oil frequently, others say keep the first oil in for 3-4k miles to "break in" the engine. On my first car I changed to Mobil 1 at 800 miles, and would probably have changed it again around 2k if it wasn't in the shop :-). I changed the original oil to Mobil 1 before putting my second car in storage.

Regarding the K&N, I would suggest contacting them and see if there is a new kit for '05 (might be, I think the throttle body/MAF tube might be wider). The K&N "cone" filter is much less restrictive than the stock airbox, which is chambered and baffled to keep the intake noise down. For the '04's I know a couple of people who showed 15+ hp improvements on the dyno by installing the K&N cone kit (they also make a panel filter that fits the stock airbox, but that provides a very negliglble improvement).

Regarding transporting your car, they all come in via boat to Benecia, CA (east Bay area) where the spoiler is applied. Except for California cars, they then go via rail to Kansas City and then to the closest GM distribution area, where they are trucked to your dealership. It's possible the dust came from sitting at Benecia, or on the rail or truck. If you look at the paint very closely, can you see dust/particles embedded in the clear coat? That would be my concern - I'd suggest using a clay bar on the car...

--Robert

casoncase

Many thanks, Robert.

The paint job is not damaged, which is a bit of a mystery.

The '05 seems to have a better finish than the '04, which had a kind of micro effect to it, like millions of spider web threads draped on the finish.

Got it: no cruise control. Makes sense to vary the demands on the engine.

Glad you mentioned the "cone kit".

I pushed it, a little, today. At about 4000 RPM, accelerating, it gets a fantastic rapping/throbbing sound, very deep and throaty. It's going to take some discipline to not crank it during this break-in period.

Wish I had the bucks to have shelved my '04.

graphicguy

Is that you ruski? If so, long time no see.

Nothing happened to it. I drove it until I had ~115,000 miles on it and sold it. Great car. Nothing but routine maintenance, tires, batteries, brakes....that kind of stuff. I was driving from Cincinnati to Chicago just about every week for work at the time, so the miles racked up quickly.

I know a while ago, you were having problems with your Acura TL. Whatever became of that?

mattchalmers

I would recommend that you take the GTO out on the highway, drive a consistent 55-75, but rotate through your top 3 gears (assuming that you have a manual transmission). If you have an automatic, just make sure you are getting on it enough to shift between three and four.

graphicguy

Ooooohhhh. Pontiac is trying hard to get my business. They just sent me a free DVD movie called "The LAst Ride". Never head of it, but it's got Dennis Hopper in it. Looks like it has something to do with GTO's though.

They also sent me a nice GTO brochure and a pre-appoved letter from GMAC to take advantage of their lease/purchase rates on a GTO.

Nice!

midwesttrader

Just read elsewhere that the Zeta platform based GTO is all but dead.

Apparently GM is having second thoughts about committing to the low sales volume GTO when Chevy (Camaro) and/or Buick could generate higher sales for the platform. They are also having more trouble than anticipated developing the Zeta based GTO.

Just rumors for now stay tuned.

hammen2

I started a thread on another forum about this. The original Zeta plan was that Pontiac would get the GTO coupe and G8 sedan, Buick would get the VElite coupe and Roadmaster/Invicta sedan, and Chevy would get a new Chevelle/Camaro coupe and Impala sedan, all RWD based on Zeta and built in Michigan and in Oshawa.

Well, it sounds like VElite is going to be based on the next Epsilon platform (FWD/AWD - think G6). The Buick sedan is going to be made in Australia and sold here. The Chevy coupe may be built on an extended Kappa (think Solstice and Sky, or the Holden Torana concept), and the Impala is now going to stay FWD (along with the Caddy DTS and the Buick Lucerne, on a new "Chi" platform). This leaves Pontiac the odd one out, so Zeta for the U.S. is currently being re-thought (Holden will have their first Zeta car in MY2006). I think this might even put the future of Pontiac up in the air - remember, the Olds concepts dried up a couple of years before Olds was declared dead. No RWD coupe and sedan, no small-car replacement for the Sunfire, and where does this leave Pontiac? Rebadged Toyota (Vibe), G6, Bonneville dying, aging Grand Prix W-body, Aztek being replaced by rebadged Theta Equinox, warmed over minivan (SV6)?

This is personally a very bad move, IMHO. GM has no answer for the Chrysler 300 or the Ford 500. Maybe Chi will answer the 500, but not until 2010-2011. And there's still no RWD car.

Yet another example of GM leaving the market to Ford (old Impala et. al. B-bodies left the cab/police/large RWD sedan market to Ford - now, end the GTO and leave the sporty RWD coupe and sedan market to Ford and Chrysler, respectively).

Time to fire all of the beancounters and start over...

--Robert

graphicguy

Robert...can't argue your logic. I think it would be a simple shame if they leave Pontiac out in the cold. More particularly, if they don't have an updated "GTO Halo CAR".

Bonneville has been left to languish (and is now going away). Vibe = Matrix (don't know what Toyota is cooking up to update those models). G6 is indeed new, but they are already rebating those and they've just been released. GM's minivans were always "also rans" to Chrysler and Honda. Grand Prix are getting long in the tooth (W6).

Could it possibly be that GM is looking to trim yet another line of cars? That would leave them with Chevy, Buick, Caddy. I know that the pundits have said for years that the General has too much overlap, but it would make more sense to me if they worked a little harder to differenciate the brands, they might get more market share.

Pontiac was supposed to be the "excitement" division. Aside from the GTO, there isn't much excitement that I can discern.

Plus, I can't believe Chevy (and now Cadilac) would be too enthused about sharing their 6.0 engine with yet another division.

4rider

"Yet another example of GM leaving the market to Ford "

Exactly. I can't believe GM is giving away the market. The 05 has an outragious 400hp and yet I have never seen a TV ads about this. Why? There are only a hand full of cars out there that has 400+hp. GM should really tweak this car just a little and badge it as a Caddy for about hi $50k.

brushbandit

They have run ads for the 05 during the Barrett Jackson auctions. Obviously going for the enthusiast market that this car niches to. January sales have also been decent for the 04 05 GTO's considering RWD in winter month.

graphicguy

Holy smokes. I knew you were having problems with the Acura, but I had no idea those issues were so serious.....5 TRANNYS? WOW! There is a world of difference (performance wise) between the Acura and the GTO. Have you driven one yet?

I've test driven the '04 and '05 GTO several times. It's a very nice automobile. Personally, I think it's priced about 15% too high, but GM may use rebates to offset that issue. You may very well see those rebates by November.

I don't know what to make of Pontiac these days. All sorts of rumors swirling around. I saw the Solstice at the local autoshow and liked it. But, GM is also bringing out a Saturn version, which looks even better. They took a nice step with the '05 GTO this year by adding a little "pizzaz" to the styling. Boneville is going away. G6 is being rebated already. Vibe is a Matrix. That doesn't even begin to address the Aztec fiasco.

I don't think a major overhaul is needed for the GTO. They can keep the drivetrain and interior the way it is. If they had brought it out with more styling cues from the GTO's heydey in the late '60s (thinking something along the lines of the '68-'69 version), Pontiac could turn it into a winner. A couple of "tweeks" here and there (re-calibrate the spongy brakes and the sloppy shifter) would go a long way to stiring more demand. Can't argue it's performance, though.

I had an RX8 until some yokel crahsed into it with a Dodge RAM. I'm currently "carless".

I've put in an order for a Mustang GT (if you can get your hands on one, do yourself a favor and drive one). My hope is to have it by April. These things are as scarce as hen's teeth. If my order doesn't come in by April, I won't hesitate to go to my 2nd choice, the '05 GTO.

I'm still a little fearful that Pontiac will drop the GTO from its line-up (or go away entirely). I don't want to be stuck with a lame duck model that will have resale drop like a stone. I think that's already happened with the '04 GTOs. Pontiac has already cut production from the '04 GTO (which they made 18,000 of and are still trying to clear from dealers lots) to 12,000 units for '05. GM may not even blink in dropping a model that sells less than 20,000 units per year.

andys120

Pontiac was supposed to be the "excitement" division. Aside from the GTO, there isn't much excitement that I can discern.

Cadillac has clearly superseded Pontiac as the "excitement division of GM. If it weren't so expensive I'd suggest they fold Pontiac.

jontyrees

Oh right, just blame the beancounters......

Jonty Rees
Budget Manager

graphicguy

GM certainly didn't have any problems in shuffling off Oldsmobile. Personally, I think GM is dying to kill off one more division. Up until this point, I thought it would have been Buick. But, they seem committed to Buick (particularly seeing the new models they are coming out with). That kind of leaves Pontiac out in the cold.

I agree.....Caddy is the "excitement" division within GM, now. Chevy is the "budget" division. GMC the truck division (shared with Chevy). Buick is the "link" between Chevy and Caddilac.

GTO can easily be absorbed back into Holden and GM would be no worse for the effort.

Speaking of Holden, anyone notice how the right hand drive Holden brought to the U.S. as a left hand drive without changing the stereo head unit? All other U.S. cars have the volume control knob on the left hand side closest to the driver. GTO's is on the right side closest to the passenger. That's an ergonomic "faux pax". Also note, the spoiler on the GTO has the center brake light....in addition to the center brake light in the back window....duplication of parts and effort. I wonder how that was missed by the GM bean counters? (Sorry jontyrees....I just had to do that).

ocmike3

Can you imagine the last gen Riviera with a V8? The car was sweet and if it had a v8, I'd still have one.

graphicguy

I thought the Riviera was one of the most beautifully styled cars GM ever engineered. At the time, it had the General's sweet supercharged 3.8 engine (similar to the one in the Pontiac GP GTP). I couldn't understand how GM could have "mucked up" such a nice package, but they did.

You can usually tell which cars GM is phasing out by the amount of marketing they do with it. Right now, it's all about Cobalt, Corvette, Caddy and Buick. There's not much in the way of marketing any of Pontiac's models....even less with the GTO.

andys120

GM certainly didn't have any problems in shuffling off Oldsmobile well yeah if you don't count the billions in transition costs and legal settlements they incurred.

I do agree that Poncho looks like the surplus division (along with GMC). Saturn is on the way to being Opelized and revitalized. Chevy can be profitable on trucks and Buick is getting new product.

midwesttrader

February = 988
YTD = 1886

GM car sales across the board down a whopping 17%. Grand Prix sales down big and Bonneville sales down as well. The G6 is showing some life.

Not a bad month for the GTO with limited incentives available. Monthly sales up 382 units compared with February of last year. At this point I'm guessing that most of the pent-up demand has been satisfied.

sputterguy

It sounds a bit like the situation with the GTO. Some dealers have a lot of cars and some don't get any or only a few. Out here in San Jose the dealer has a lot. I've only seen one on the road so far. Anyway, don't worry about it, get the car that you want. I think it was nojets that got an RX8 becuase his kids bike fit in the trunk. You gotta get what works for you, not what some Ad Exec. thinks you want. You might want to check out my next post though.

graphicguy

It's true that it cost GM transition $$$$ in dropping Oldsmobile. Fact is, those costs pale in comparison to the amount of money the General saves by not having Olds around anymore.

It's clear to me where GM is putting their efforts. The aforementioned Saturn, Buick, Caddy and Chevy.

I can see GMC going away since they are a virutal clone of Chevy's trucks. The most innovative model GMC had was the XUV. GM has just "axed" that model.

Back to the GTO, it must be a regional thing because they are arriving here by the truck load ("here" meaning OH).

4rider

"I thought the Riviera was one of the most beautifully styled cars GM ever engineered"

You took the words right out of my mouth. The Riviera, together with their brothers, The Elodorado and Toronado trio back in the 80 were really finest cars available. Most of, they had the taste of elegance that you dont find in today's cars.

jae5

"Also note, the spoiler on the GTO has the center brake light....in addition to the center brake light in the back window....duplication of parts and effort."

Maybe this is due to knowing some will remove the spoiler, some not. But I agree, you would think that they would just have the interior cmsl and not have one in the spoiler. Would save on parts, wiring harnesses, cost.