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I was quoted $30K for a 2004 Touring Z. I prefer the 2005 because they adjusted the clutch and hopefully will have corrected the tire problem. So I was gonna wait till year end and try and get an 05 for $30K. I like the interior and the stereo better than the GTO.
I know the GTO will smoke the Z but I would be willing to sacrifice some HP for much better handling and brakes. I was quoted $23,500 for an 04 M6 a couple of months ago. I do believe the Z will hold its value a little better. I am also gonna wait and see where the 05's fall out at.
I currently have a 2000 Celica GTS 6SP which is alot of fun but short on pop. I have always been dissapointed in the torque. You have to wind it up to 6,000 RPMs for a nice little boost but it is a long wait. But the car handles and brakes very well and gets 26 MPG even when driving it really hard. I am hoping the Z will handle like the Celica and have the torque of the GTO (at least close to it.)
Resale on Z's in the past have been good.
I think the GTO may or may not have good resale. If the '04 models are any indication, then the answer is they won't have good resale since GM since dealers are still selling them by giving their $5K money from the factory to the customer. That said, stock of '04 GTOs is low (but they should be gone by now for all intents and purposes). That said, their production has been cut by 1/2 for the '05 MY, they've dropped in a Corvette engine and from what I can tell, they are selling at or near MSRP for the '05 model. So, who knows what resale will be on the '05s.
I have seen a bigger build up of '05 350Zs in the last few months than I've ever seen. SO that may be an indicator that sales have cooled off for it, too.
That $23.5K for the '04 GTO would have had me in their showroom and in the finance office.
There's going to be a huge difference between your Celica and either the 350Z or GTO.
Drive both and that should answer your questions.
Production has not been cut in half. 18k were scheduled for '04, a few more than 16k were built due to niggling production/startup/shipping issues. 12k are scheduled for '05, however, GM is also going to stop building '05's in May or June so that the last '05's arrive by August. That way, the '06 cars can start showing up in September, just like the other vehicles. So, that certainly explains the 1/3 production cut. We'll see how the '05 sells before they decide how many '06's to build (the next-gen may not be here until early 2007 as a 2008 model - here we go again, GM!).
And, as far as I know, the LS1 is also a 'Vette engine, so both '04 and '05 can make that claim.
--Robert
I'd suggest calling your dealer ASAP if you are interested. Not all ADI's have these, or have any more of these, so this is geographically dependent...
Hope this helps someone,
--Robert
I could have done even better. At year end I was offered an additional $6,000 off from my GM Card. That would have put the price at $17,500. No kidding! I still did not pull the trigger. I hated the pedal setup for the 6 speed, hated the lack of view out the back window (which no one mentions - the rear deck lid is high and the window slants at a very low angle), did not care for the stereo and speakers or the rear seat entry, and was generally turned off by a car discounted that much. They were going to give me $11 for my 00 Celica!
I took home the GTO and drove it to work. I loved the punch but other than that it was just ok. I tested the Z once but didnt really have a chance to wail on it. Go to Pontiac.com and do a vehicle search. I am sure there are still plenty of 2004s.
--Robert
GM says use the oil life monitoring system, which uses a formula based on engine RPMs, temps, duration, et. al. This may be upwards of 10k-15k miles before this comes on, and I personally am not comfortable with this.
There are many opinions on when to do the first oil change on a new car. Some folks believe that there is break-in oil which needs to "seat" in the car. Others feel that there are metal pieces in the oil (left over from the engine's manufacturing process) and it's best to change oil at 500 and 1000 miles.
I personally changed the oil at 800 miles (went to Mobil-1) on my first GTO. My second GTO, since it was going into storage and I didn't want the original oil sitting in it for 3 more months, I had them change to M1 before I picked it up.
I plan to get the oil changed at around 500 miles, and then follow the 3k-4k mile routine with my car. You should do what makes you feel comfortable.
Hope this helps,
--Robert
Jury is still out on trade in value on the 04. Who is going to buy used from me when the last time I checked there are 16 "new" 2004's within 10 miles of me (Suburban Chicago)on dealer lots. Cars.com doesnt have any GTS 6 speed in red for sale. Nobody is going to argue Toyota vs Pontiac reliability.
I'll contact my dealer tomorrow to see if they have the package available. I May not install it immediately , but it will be nice to have the package in the future.
Where do I look if my dealer can't help me?
Thanks again
I have no affiliation with either dealership - just passing this info on.
--Robert
IMHO, I know two things to be true. GM, Chrysler, Ford make among the best V8 engines in the world. I'm glad that they are back into the race with them. Automatic transmissions are also the U.S. brand forte....particularly GM. GM makes the best automatic transmissions, hands down.
In the past, where the U.S. brands have fallen down is in assembly quality (particularly in the '80s and early '90s). They have all rectified this for the most part, however. With Globalization, I think you'd be hard pressed, if you're really honest about it, to see much of a difference in assembly quality between any of the major manufacturers at any given price point today. Same can be said of reliability. There isn't a car made today that isn't capable of going 150K-200K miles without any major issues if properly maintained. You'll find a "stinker" every once in a while from any manufacturer, but for the most part, they are all reliable.
You can see some cost cutting in some of the materials used (especially with the accountants running the assylum at GM fighting to cut a penny here and a penny there), but that doesn't mean they are neccessarily less durable pieces.
Having test driven both, this is the way I see it....
Based on a 10 point system....1 being the worst, 10 being the best....
'05 Mustang GT (5-speed)
Styling=9
Performance=8
Shifter=9
Steering=8
Equipment=8
Braking=9
Comfort=8
Trunk space=7
Seats=7
Ride=8
TOTAL=80
'05 GTO (6-speed)
Styling=7
Performance=9
Shifter=8
Steering=8
Equipment=8
Braking=8
Comfort=9
Trunk Space=6
Seats=9
Ride=8
TOTAL=80
'04 GTO (6-speed)
Styling=6
Performance=7
Shifter=8
Steering=8
Equipment=8
Braking=8
Comfort=9
Trunk Space=6
Seats=9
Ride=8
TOTAL=77
These are my subjective observations. You throw cost into the ring and things get skewed. Provided you can still find an '04 GTO @ $25K, that might truly be the bargain of the group. An '05 GTO @ ~$31K (if discounts are available) vs a Mustang GT @ ~$26K (similarly equipped), the lines get blurred even more.
I do believe that any GTO or Mustang GT will trump a 350Z across the board (and trump an Infiniti G35c even more since it costs more, in general).
You may change the numbers or change the parameters, but the above things are what are important to me.
It is ABSOLUTELY the BEST bang for the buck high quality performance car available at that price!! I would have been a fool to pass it by and I wasn't even in the market for a new vehicle.
After 3000 miles it is definitely the best GM car I've ever owned!
Where I live I can have more fun whipping around corners in the Celica than the GTO. The Celica GTS has a much better race car like setup. I dont drive much on the highway to really wail on the GTO. The GTO would probably get me locked up anyway.
I actually only had $835 accrued in my GM card points but they offered me a "roundup" bonus of $5200 off my best deal on a 04 GTO if purchased by 1/3/05. I managed to negotiate the car to $29K -$5500 GM rebate plus 2 $500 dealer certs, total $22500 before GM card.
I figure I can drive it a full year or more and still trade for about what I paid, maybe on a left over 05 or 06. Basically GM covered my initial depreciation. EVERYONE should carry a GM card even if you hardly use it you may get an incredible offer in the mail.
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Glad to hear the car is working out so well for you.
I didn't get my replacement car until January 10 (and I had to go back into the dealership last Friday night because GM lost the signed paperwork for the replacement car - argh! This saga never seems to end - my original car is still sitting on the dealer's service lot, waiting to be picked up and returned to the Tech Center). So I'm a little miffed that others who got their cars for less than I did, and I had to wait 54 days for the exchange and didn't really get to drive or enjoy the car (still making payments and carrying full insurance on the car). But, I'm happy I have the replacement, and hope that it's as solid as everyone else's (I've never had a lemon before, so I guess it was just the luck of the draw).
I would not have bought the car for MSRP or higher - held off even test-driving one until dealers were starting to allow GM employee pricing, and the first round of incentives. Good thing, too, because I wanted one from right after the first test drive...
--Robert
What is the part # of the primed hood ? I'm not sure it comes with the pkg. I have the part numbers for about everything else.
Thanks
These deals are now gone... best you can do on an '04 is invoice minus the $5000 payout each dealer got, meaning around $24-$25k.
These are GM Performance Parts pricing:
Ground effects w/o exhaust 12499596 $982.00
Ground effects w/ exhaust 17801013 $1500.00
Grill inserts 12499616 $225.60
Front facia extension 12499608 $259.00
Rear facia extension 12499612 $392.00
Sport spoiler 12499666 $362.40
Side skirts 12499600 $350.00
I got these numbers from another site, they are usually very accurate.
For example, I had a couple myself that were almost as quick as the new GTO and Mustang. I had an '87 Buick Regal T-Type with a 3.8 liter turbo. It was rated at just 245 HP and would do 0-60 in 4.9, and the qtr in 13.88. I also had an '88 Mustang LX 5.0 that would run 5.1 0-60, and a 13.9 qtr. These times are not after mods, both cars were stock. I can almost understand the '88 Mustang being almost as quick as the new one because the Fox body 'Stangs were very small and light, but the Regal was a heavy car, almost as heavy as the GTO. If my Regal was running 4.9 0-60 times, you'd think the GTO, with 155 more HP, would run at least low 4's. And given that the GTO's aerodynamics are much better than that of the Regal, you'd think the GTO would run in the 12's for the qtr. I'm just wondering if the manufacturers are starting to go back to some type of a gross HP rating with the newer cars, similar to what they used back in the 60's. This would explain why the acceleration times aren't decreasing proportionally as the power figures increase.
The 2005 hood lists for $500-$600 for just the hood, or $700+ for the complete hood, baffles, and insulation liner. So, the SAP is a good deal, but it's limited to just what is in stock/probably won't be available after the first of March.
I do know of a couple of Pontiac dealers, one in Dublin, CA, and another in Limerick, PA who are advertising these kits for $599 + shipping. So, drop me an email (I'll turn on my email display in my profile) and I can point you in the right direction (if you can't find the dealers by going to Pontiac's web site and looking for them :-).
I am not selling anything here, and have no affiliation or experience with these dealers - just passing the info on.
--Robert
Pontiac stands behind their 4.6 second 0-60 time for auto cars, and 4.7 for the stick, with 1/4 mile times of 12.9 seconds (can't remember the speeds). On another GTO-related discussion board, I've actually seen the "recipe" for how Pontiac's test drivers say to launch the car...
From seeing dyno charts of stock '04 cars, I'd say the 350 hp for them is underrated... best results I've seen for the '04 is 13.3 seconds in the quarter...
--Robert
So, what is the rest of the formula for that Buick? What did it weigh? What gear ratios was it running? How was the gas mileage? Did you personally get those numbers? Or were those from ringers provided to the mags?
By the way, any sources for those Mustang numbers? Only source I found states 6.4 secs. (granted I didn't look too hard)
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The complete 2005 hood is p/n 92181117.
Regarding the autocross appearance packages, the grille inserts and the spoiler are the only part that can be ordered seperately (everything else is "future part not yet available" and your order will be cancelled). The autocross package is officially called the 2005 Sport Appearance Package. The kit comes with 4 components: front fascia extension, rear fascia extension, mufflers/exhaust, and side skirts/rocker panels.
Hope this helps someone,
--Robert
It took several calls across the country to finally find a dealer 50 miles away. It would only be blocks away if dealers would read their bulletins.
The dealer I bought my '04 from, when I told him of the above offer from a different dealer -- his response was "bring in the ad, we'll match it." (like I was lieing about the other dealer). After that message immediately I committed to the the previously mentioned dealer because of his no baloney, upfront, offer. Oddly enough, the reason I bought my '04 from the "bring in the ad" dealer was because they were no baloney, upfront with me in November of '03 when I bought the '04. I guess a lot depends on the dealership management at the moment, as far as the deal you are offered.
My '04 GTO was trouble free compared to the '00 Audi A6 Turbo it replaced. If anything distinguished the two it was that you could eat food on the floor of the Audi maintenance area -- not so with the GM maintenance area.
I drove the '05. The duals are huge, in size and sound. It's a much, much deeper rumble -- roll over Beethoven! The clutch feels non-linear in pressure -- it's a constant pressure throughout the pedal throw. The -- what's it called -- the foot rest to the left of the clutch -- is there, but so what? Why is that such a big deal?
The accelerator pedal pressue feels different and in a way kind of "detached," I think because of the different pressure-sensed feel of the accelerator pedal (compared to the '04) and my awareness that this is an "artificial feel" electronic system. It's not unlike "fly by wire" simulators used in pilot training.
The sales person, a young lady, seemed nervous during our test drive, so I didn't really tromp it, but I didn't have to: I could tell from the grunt that the 50 extra horses were there, waiting to charge -- the tires broke loose at the mere thought of acceleration in 1 and 2. I can't wait to drive this car.
I was very surprised that the noise level of the LS2 was, at cruise speeds, perhaps lower than the LS1. The ride = '04 = damn good.
The scoops: IMHO, if I didn't know cooling air was being ported to the LS2 (engines like cooler) I would have chosen no scoops.
18" rims/tires? $2,300; probably harder ride; kind of flashy looking, to me; didn't get them.
The trunk is the same -- small.
A little over a year ago I got my '04 -- paid premium bucks. Was it worth it? You bet! And now, 400HP, and the quality of a Beemer or Audi! It's a tough deal to match. It's unpretentious. It's comfortable -- in all seats. I have enjoyed blasting my LS1 at various old European cars who might challenge 5.3: I mean, the sound of a GTO is such an affront to the Germans and French. It's so -- well, American. Thank you, Australia.
I'd also bet that the new GTOs will get a bit quicker as they loosen up.
But I disagree on the 5.0s. You could get them to 6.0 sec. in the 0-60 stock. You had to be on point, have a fresh motor, and most likely you were driving an LX notchback. Of the 3 5-liters, the GT was slowest due to all that body cladding and that rear-glass hatch. Next was the 5.0 LX hatchback, no cladding but still had that heavy hatch. Then the notchback.
Not sure what the '92 (or was it '93?) Cobras ran. But that's enough about the Mustang, back to the GTO.
As for your Regal T-Type, I always wanted a Grand National (Regal T-Type with a black paint job) and have regretted not getting one. Which is why when I saw the supercharged version in the GTP I had to have it. I got a '98 GTP with I think they called it Silvermist paintjob. I would have gotten a Regal but at that time they no longer made any 2-doors and I don't like 4-doors. Now with a Quicksilver GTO, the GTP feels like a toy. Anyway, I have several magazines with shootouts between the Grand National and the Grand Sport Stage 1 and the Grand National was right up there in the 13's with the old big blocks. Not bad for 6 cylinders.